Waterford Airport.

curmudgeonly

hardybuck wrote: »

Has it ever been a viable business?

No is the answer, as with every small airport world wide, they are not a viable business until they achieve a critical mass, but you are looking at it from the wrong angle IMO, it is a critical infrastructure not a business.
This plan currently before the Minister is the first time that Wfd airport has put a proper sustainable (albeit in the longterm) plan forward and I for one hope it is accepted and supported.

hardybuck

curmudgeonly wrote: »

No is the answer, as with every small airport world wide, they are not a viable business until they achieve a critical mass, but you are looking at it from the wrong angle IMO, it is a critical infrastructure not a business.
This plan currently before the Minister is the first time that Wfd airport has put a proper sustainable (albeit in the longterm) plan forward and I for one hope it is accepted and supported.

But at the end of the day it is a business. I would question would it be publicly owned if it was really critical infastructure.

Again, I'm trying to keep an open mind. At least the head of the Department of Transport is their former Waterford Airport CEO and from Lismore Park? If anyone should have a good insight, it'll be him.

notharrypotter

curmudgeonly wrote: »

, it is a critical infrastructure

The current infrastructure is more than suitable to fulfill its SAR operations.
This is the only element of Waterford airport that could be in any way considered as a "Critical" nature.

Only Shannon and Cork of the airport's outside Dublin will cover their day to day operations from their own resources.
The others Donegal/Sligo/Knock/Kerry/Waterford will need a subsidy to cover their day to day running costs.
All the airport's outside of Dublin will need subsidy when undertaking any major infrastructure projects.

There is no need for any expansion of the current Waterford airport.

Any attempt is going to need significant state support and would leave the state on the hook for further unnecessary long term expenses regarding the day to day running costs.

But there is an election in the offing so watch out for more kite flying.

curmudgeonly

notharrypotter wrote: »

The current infrastructure is more than suitable to fulfill its SAR operations.
This is the only element of Waterford airport that could be in any way considered as a "Critical" nature.

Only Shannon and Cork of the airport's outside Dublin will cover their day to day operations from their own resources.
The others Donegal/Sligo/Knock/Kerry/Waterford will need a subsidy to cover their day to day running costs.
All the airport's outside of Dublin will need subsidy when undertaking any major infrastructure projects.

There is no need for any expansion of the current Waterford airport.

Any attempt is going to need significant state support and would leave the state on the hook for further unnecessary long term expenses regarding the day to day running costs.

But there is an election in the offing so watch out for more kite flying.

I think you should read the business plan before you say anymore, It takes Waterford Airport out of the subsidised forever world you describe within five years and into the black.

914

curmudgeonly wrote: »

I think you should read the business plan before you say anymore, It takes Waterford Airport out of the subsidised forever world you describe within five years and into the black.

Is it possible for us to read the business plan? Is it available for public viewing?

JCX BXC

curmudgeonly wrote: »

I think you should read the business plan before you say anymore, It takes Waterford Airport out of the subsidised forever world you describe within five years and into the black.

That made me laugh.

The airport would need a significant passenger flow and airlines actually paying fees in order to become self sustaining. It simply won't happen!

hardybuck

curmudgeonly wrote: »

I think you should read the business plan before you say anymore, It takes Waterford Airport out of the subsidised forever world you describe within five years and into the black.

Every business plan has the intention of convincing the reader to invest. That doesn't mean that it is in anyway realistic.

Masala

curmudgeonly wrote: »

I think you should read the business plan before you say anymore, It takes Waterford Airport out of the subsidised forever world you describe within five years and into the black.

Jeez... am fascinated now!!!

Is this plan a Thriller or a Comedy???

Deiseen

A lot of people on here spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone that any Waterford Airport development is all pointless.

Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny councils have committed money to the new business plan. A businessman has also put up some millions for it.

If it doesn't work out then it doesn't work out and thats that for the airport.

But if there is a chance that it makes Ireland a mote attractive place to visit and invest, and gives the struggling South East
Region a boost then is it not worth it to try?

Isn't that how we have got to where we are today as a species? By trying, developing, learning and taking risks. Yes, Sometimes we fail, but we do also succeed.

If we all listened to people constantly saying something would never work and theres no point in even trying, then we would all still be living in caves banging on rocks.

curmudgeonly

Ha ha on some of the comments, but this is Ireland and ALL decisions by Government are political eventually, and the money here is small beans in a budgetary sense (€10Mill) with big Kudos for the excuse for TD's we have.

The business plan is not public, but the thing that is different this time is it has three revenue streams as distinct form one in all previous plans, Pax traffic, Freight, Aircraft maintenance.

notharrypotter

Deiseen wrote: »

A lot of people on here spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone that any Waterford Airport development is all pointless.

Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny councils have committed money to the new business plan. A businessman has also put up some millions for it.


But if there is a chance that it makes Ireland a mote attractive place to visit and invest, and gives the struggling South East
Region a boost then is it not worth it to try?

.

This saga reminds me of Monty Python's dead parrot sketch.

914

curmudgeonly wrote: »

Ha ha on some of the comments, but this is Ireland and ALL decisions by Government are political eventually, and the money here is small beans in a budgetary sense (€10Mill) with big Kudos for the excuse for TD's we have.

The business plan is not public, but the thing that is different this time is it has three revenue streams as distinct form one in all previous plans, Pax traffic, Freight, Aircraft maintenance.

Sounds interesting. Aircraft maintenance must be Dublin Aerospace as a while back they were looking to move out of dublin.

Freight I'm not sure as currently cork has little or no freight, what kind of freight would we be attracting?

I think commerical/private flights and maintenance would be our best bet.

I presuming the airport would need companies lined up so it wouldn't be a case of (hopefully) developing a runway and then looking to attract business?

I fear no Minister would put their name to providing money in the fear of it not working out when very little businnes exists at present.

notharrypotter

914 wrote: »

Sounds interesting. Aircraft maintenance must be Dublin Aerospace as a while back they were looking to move out of dublin.

Freight I'm not sure as currently cork has little or no freight, what kind of freight would we be attracting?

I think commerical/private flights and maintenance would be our best bet.

I presuming the airport would need companies lined up so it wouldn't be a case of (hopefully) developing a runway and then looking to attract business?

I fear no Minister would put their name to providing money in the fear of it not working out when very little businnes exists at present.

Galway has maintenance hangars.
Knock has hangars too.

Freight?
They stopping using Cork as it made no sense.

Airport's with excess of 1.5 million passengers struggle to cover their day to day running costs.

I have to admit that I find it fascinating that the old Irish adage of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result is alive and well.

marno21

Sometimes a loss making airport is beneficial for regional development. Not one that haemorrhages money, but you can't ignore the externalities here.

Waterford is one of the more isolated regions in Ireland when it comes to airport access. Cork and Limerick have airports within 15 minutes, Galway has 2 airports within 45 minutes. Waterford has no airport within 90 minutes.

Given the recent tourism drive in the south east, an airport isn't a bad idea, imo.

And this airport needs to be about inbound tourism and accessibility, in addition to business uses (such as the existing usage by business jets and EI-DMG). Freight and maintenance operations are not what's going to make this viable.

914

marno21 wrote: »

Sometimes a loss making airport is beneficial for regional development. Not one that haemorrhages money, but you can't ignore the externalities here.

Waterford is one of the more isolated regions in Ireland when it comes to airport access. Cork and Limerick have airports within 15 minutes, Galway has 2 airports within 45 minutes. Waterford has no airport within 90 minutes.

Given the recent tourism drive in the south east, an airport isn't a bad idea, imo.

And this airport needs to be about inbound tourism and accessibility, in addition to business uses (such as the existing usage by business jets and EI-DMG). Freight and maintenance operations are not what's going to make this viable.

Very sensible post.

Masala

marno21 wrote: »

Sometimes a loss making airport is beneficial for regional development. Not one that haemorrhages money, but you can't ignore the externalities here.

Waterford is one of the more isolated regions in Ireland when it comes to airport access. Cork and Limerick have airports within 15 minutes, Galway has 2 airports within 45 minutes. Waterford has no airport within 90 minutes.

Given the recent tourism drive in the south east, an airport isn't a bad idea, imo.

And this airport needs to be about inbound tourism and accessibility, in addition to business uses (such as the existing usage by business jets and EI-DMG). Freight and maintenance operations are not what's going to make this viable.

But where is the directive that every county has to be within 90 minutes of an airport??? Sure.. there are people with a Dublin address that are still 90 minutes from their nearest airport come 8am and 5 pm every day. Should another airport be built to facility them???

Bristol and Cardiff airports serve a catchment of 12m ... and we have 8 airports opened to serve 4.5m.

marno21

Masala wrote: »

But where is the directive that every county has to be within 90 minutes of an airport??? Sure.. there are people with a Dublin address that are still 90 minutes from their nearest airport come 8am and 5 pm every day. Should another airport be built to facility them???

Bristol and Cardiff airports serve a catchment of 12m ... and we have 8 airports opened to serve 4.5m.

There is no directive that anywhere has to be within 90 minutes of an airport. But if we follow your logic, should we just close all the airports and stick with Dublin Airport?

We have 6 airports with scheduled services. Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Kerry, Knock and Donegal. Both Donegal and Kerry have PSO subsidised flights to Dublin.

If you are arguing that Dublin people are 90 minutes from their airport during the day then that means that Waterford people are 3 hours+ from Dublin every day then that strengthens the case for services from Waterford Airport?

Masala

marno21 wrote: »

There is no directive that anywhere has to be within 90 minutes of an airport. But if we follow your logic, should we just close all the airports and stick with Dublin Airport?

We have 6 airports with scheduled services. Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Kerry, Knock and Donegal. Both Donegal and Kerry have PSO subsidised flights to Dublin.

If you are arguing that Dublin people are 90 minutes from their airport during the day then that means that Waterford people are 3 hours+ from Dublin every day then that strengthens the case for services from Waterford Airport?

Waterford people have Cork to service them..., what are they going to Dublin for??

914

marno21 wrote: »

There is no directive that anywhere has to be within 90 minutes of an airport. But if we follow your logic, should we just close all the airports and stick with Dublin Airport?

We have 6 airports with scheduled services. Dublin, Cork, Shannon, Kerry, Knock and Donegal. Both Donegal and Kerry have PSO subsidised flights to Dublin.

If you are arguing that Dublin people are 90 minutes from their airport during the day then that means that Waterford people are 3 hours+ from Dublin every day then that strengthens the case for services from Waterford Airport?

Not every county should not be within 90 minutes of an airpor. But every gateway city should be pretty close to one.

A functional airprot would help improve attracting FDI, greater FDI would enhance the possibility of a Uni, then with a uni you now have a teaching hospital, UHW would be back to being a proper regional hospital.

road_high

Masala wrote: »

Waterford people have Cork to service them..., what are they going to Dublin for??

Because it's as close as Cork really and good bus links to/from. Travel time from Waterford to Dub would be similar to Cork.

notharrypotter

914 wrote: »

Not every county should not be within 90 minutes of an airpor. But every gateway city should be pretty close to one.

‘catchment area of an airport’ means a geographic market boundary that is normally set at around 100 kilometres or around 60 minutes travelling time by car, bus, train or high-speed train

914 wrote: »

A functional airport would help improve attracting FDI, greater FDI would enhance the possibility of a Uni, then with a uni you now have a teaching hospital, UHW would be back to being a proper regional hospital.

• the duplication of unprofitable airports or the creation of additional unused capacity does not contribute to an objective of common interest.
• If an investment project is primarily aimed at creating new airport capacity, the new infrastructure must,
• in the medium-term, meet the forecasted demand of the airlines, passengers and freight forwarders in the catchment area of the airport.
• Any investment which does not have satisfactory medium-term prospects for use, or diminishes the medium-term prospects for use of existing infra structure in the catchment area, cannot be considered to serve an objective of common interest.

Consequently, as regards public financing to airports, the analysis of conformity with the MEO test should be based on sound ex ante profitability prospects for the entity granting the financing (55). Any traffic forecasts used for that purpose should be realistic and subject to a reasonable sensitivity analysis.

914

notharrypotter wrote: »

‘catchment area of an airport’ means a geographic market boundary that is normally set at around 100 kilometres or around 60 minutes travelling time by car, bus, train or high-speed train

• the duplication of unprofitable airports or the creation of additional unused capacity does not contribute to an objective of common interest.
• If an investment project is primarily aimed at creating new airport capacity, the new infrastructure must,
• in the medium-term, meet the forecasted demand of the airlines, passengers and freight forwarders in the catchment area of the airport.
• Any investment which does not have satisfactory medium-term prospects for use, or diminishes the medium-term prospects for use of existing infra structure in the catchment area, cannot be considered to serve an objective of common interest.

Consequently, as regards public financing to airports, the analysis of conformity with the MEO test should be based on sound ex ante profitability prospects for the entity granting the financing (55). Any traffic forecasts used for that purpose should be realistic and subject to a reasonable sensitivity analysis.

So seen as Waterford City, Kilkenny city, Carlow Town, Clonmel, Wexford Town and Enniscorty are greater than 100km to dublin/shannon and cork airport, and Waterford is less than 100km, Waterford seems to fall into this criteria for development???

notharrypotter

914 wrote: »

So seen as Waterford City, Kilkenny city, Carlow Town, Clonmel, Wexford Town and Enniscorty are greater than 100km to dublin/shannon and cork airport, and Waterford is less than 100km, Waterford seems to fall into this criteria for development???

In a previous post from my front door in Clonmel Cork/Shannon/Dublin are all almost as close time wise as Waterford.
Problem with sticking a compass in Waterford and drawing a circle conveniently ignores where said circle intersects with other larger airport's.

You need to look not only at distance but also accessibility and number of services to destinations.
Dublin Coach and Kavanaghs have about 20 services between Waterford city and Dublin.
Kavanaghs have 5 from Clonmel.

There is no way that Waterford can ever compete at an acceptable price point.

Wishful thinking and an election in the offing should not be the deciding criteria

Mountainsandh

road_high wrote: »

Because it's as close as Cork really and good bus links to/from. Travel time from Waterford to Dub would be similar to Cork.

I fly to France usually, direct route to destination is only available from Dublin. Connections are too expensive, time consuming, or inconvenient to offset the hassle of flying from Dublin. The day flight choices improve I will switch from Dublin to Cork instantly.

notharrypotter wrote: »

In a previous post from my front door in Clonmel Cork/Shannon/Dublin are all almost as close time wise as Waterford.
Problem with sticking a compass in Waterford and drawing a circle conveniently ignores where said circle intersects with other larger airport's.

You need to look not only at distance but also accessibility and number of services to destinations.
Dublin Coach and Kavanaghs have about 20 services between Waterford city and Dublin.
Kavanaghs have 5 from Clonmel.

There is no way that Waterford can ever compete at an acceptable price point.

Wishful thinking and an election in the offing should not be the deciding criteria

You are omitting several deciding factors in your reasoning.
I'm in West Waterford, close to Clonmel, and very much poised to see what happens with Waterford airport.
I would actually consider connections for the convenience of flying from Waterford.
Access is easy, familiar, and there are practically no heavy traffic considerations to factor in.
Car parking expense is a very weighty factor too. Likely to be cheaper and if not, more likely to get a lift to airport from friends/family, or even a taxi service.
Convenience and accessibility of a small airport (less daunting, less time consuming, friendlier, easier to navigate when mobility is an issue, less crowded).
Weather concerns : if flying in winter i would much rather drive on familiar roads where I know what to expect re. frost and ice, plus generally the weather tends to be milder in the South.

From my location Waterford airport would be 1hr30 very worst case scenario, Dublin 2hrs30 minimum.

The considerations i mentioned above would apply for most people I know who would travel for leisure : retirees, middle aged, and younger travellers.
Surely business travel is not the only feature to consider.

road_high

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I fly to France usually, direct route to destination is only available from Dublin. Connections are too expensive, time consuming, or inconvenient to offset the hassle of flying from Dublin. The day flight choices improve I will switch from Dublin to Cork instantly.



You are omitting several deciding factors in your reasoning.
I'm in West Waterford, close to Clonmel, and very much poised to see what happens with Waterford airport.
I would actually consider connections for the convenience of flying from Waterford.
Access is easy, familiar, and there are practically no heavy traffic considerations to factor in.
Car parking expense is a very weighty factor too. Likely to be cheaper and if not, more likely to get a lift to airport from friends/family, or even a taxi service.
Convenience and accessibility of a small airport (less daunting, less time consuming, friendlier, easier to navigate when mobility is an issue, less crowded).
Weather concerns : if flying in winter i would much rather drive on familiar roads where I know what to expect re. frost and ice, plus generally the weather tends to be milder in the South.

From my location Waterford airport would be 1hr30 very worst case scenario, Dublin 2hrs30 minimum.

The considerations i mentioned above would apply for most people I know who would travel for leisure : retirees, middle aged, and younger travellers.
Surely business travel is not the only feature to consider.

Would it really take this long to get from west Waterford to WAT airport? I'd have thought an hour tops.

Mountainsandh

road_high wrote: »

Would it really take this long to get from west Waterford to WAT airport? I'd have thought an hour tops.

That's the very worst case scenario where there might be frost, or tractors galore. I have a 25 minutes rural drive to reach the N25, so that's the dodgy bit I'd make allowances for, for someone closer to the N25 to start from it'd be a doddle, and a pleasant drive.

914

https://fora.ie/waterford-airport-runway-extension-4178181-Aug2018/?utm_source=linkedin

€5 million from government is small money in the scheme of things.

Masala

914 wrote: »

https://fora.ie/waterford-airport-runway-extension-4178181-Aug2018/?utm_source=linkedin

€5 million from government is small money in the scheme of things.

The question the Government will want to know is how the other €7m is coming in???? Share Capital or Loans???

They will not want to see the accounts overloaded with interest payments and cash flow depleted by paying back loans.

914

Masala wrote: »

The question the Government will want to know is how the other €7m is coming in???? Share Capital or Loans???

They will not want to see the accounts overloaded with interest payments and cash flow depleted by paying back loans.

€5 million from private investment, and €2 million from local authorities of the south east.

Masala

914 wrote: »

€5 million from private investment, and €2 million from local authorities of the south east.

Again ...what is it?? Share capital or loans??