Waterford Airport.

hardybuck

Bards wrote: »

Hmm... Cork terminal anyone...big waste of money ever... No bank would have given cork airport the money for that over engineered under utilised piece of trophy Infrastructure

Great, so you'd like more waste of taxpayers money. I'd rather not.

hardybuck

Teebor15 wrote: »

The government just gave 6 million towards the new pedestrian bridge to be built in the city centre. Why was'nt it funded by a private investor? Is there a clear return to be gained? Will the bridge make money back for the state? I don't think its going to be tolled so how will they get a return on the investment?

Because the bridge wasn't co-funded, and they weren't proposing to own and run the asset after it's built. Your comparison is similar to the funding that the Government funded for the roads which lead to the airport.

road_high

Deise Vu wrote: »

With all due respect your point on timing is utterly ridiculous. You are timing a run from lift-off in London to arriving in Kilkenny, having parked in the short-term car park in Dublin and picking a late evening after rush hour landing time when traffic is light on the road all the way down.

That is apples and oranges with someone leaving from Waterford to go to Dublin and get through security, having parked their car in the majority of cases in longer term parking. If I was using Dublin Airport the very latest I would leave it would be 4 hours before flight time and even then I would have my fingers crossed that the Naas Road roadworks wouldn't be gummed up or that there wouldn't be an accident on the M50.

I never use the long term car parks unless going on holidays as it makes an absolutely massive difference. I nearly missed a flight once parking in some far flung car park and for work it’s not worth the stress and added time. Majority of people on business work travel would use the short terms.
I can assure you there is plenty of traffic on the M50 and M7 still at around 9.00 pm!

road_high

Dum_Dum wrote: »

What?


Governments have failed Waterford again and again.


The 1980's was a long time ago by the way.

In all fairness WAT is a very decent facility they had received a lot of state funding over the years- they just didn’t build the runway long enough! If thst can be sorted I believe it can prosper

road_high

dzilla wrote: »

If you read what I had quoted you will see I was referring to how Kerry branded itself successfully and we didnt. This is not a government failing of Waterford.

Kerry is a lot more isolated than Waterford from the rest of the country- the car journey from Dublin is 4/5 hour torture. The airport there serves a lot to alleviate that isolation, more like say Cornwall or the Highlands of Scotland

road_high

hardybuck wrote: »

Or because in light of the many competing projects which seek Government funding, this hasn't been seen as a priority yet, aside from the €750,000 it has received this year alone despite having no routes since 2016. It got €1m in 2016 actually.

My reading is that private investors are willing to stump up around 40% of the funding required to make this project work. This really indicates that the airport isn't viable as a commercial project.

To put this into context, the funding sought for the airport is roughly equivalent to the capital funding for the second cath lab for the hospital. Which delivers more value for money for the region?

I think that so much private funding is willing to invest is massive...it makes the case a lot easier and stronger for central funding

road_high

Bards wrote: »

Hmm... Cork terminal anyone...big waste of money ever... No bank would have given cork airport the money for that over engineered under utilised piece of trophy Infrastructure

Something far more modest would have sufficed given the traffic levels...the savings could have extended the runway at WAT. It was a purely vanity project...
Just like the other €100 million plus white elephant down the road in Pairc Ui Chaoimh!

hardybuck

road_high wrote: »

Something far more modest would have sufficed given the traffic levels...the savings could have extended the runway at WAT. It was a purely vanity project...
Just like the other €100 million plus white elephant down the road in Pairc Ui Chaoimh!

True that.

notharrypotter

road_high wrote: »

Something far more modest would have sufficed given the traffic levels...the savings could have extended the runway at WAT. It was a purely vanity project...
Just like the other €100 million plus white elephant down the road in Pairc Ui Chaoimh!

Like it or not the DAA (and Aer Rianta before it) is a "commercial" state company. It receives no support from the taxpayer.


Simply put the remit of Commercial State Enterprises is to turn a profit from the business they run while costing the taxpayer nothing.


The DAA's commercial remit extends to Dublin and Cork airports only.


Waterford will ALWAYS need state support.
The hard question which will not be answered any time soon is what exactly does the SAR operations need in the South East.

Teebor15

hardybuck wrote: »

Because the bridge wasn't co-funded, and they weren't proposing to own and run the asset after it's built. Your comparison is similar to the funding that the Government funded for the roads which lead to the airport.

The government funded the road to the airport and contribute to its upkeep yet it doesn't return a cent to the exchequer...should they stop funding roads?...why do they do this if they are obviously not commercially viable!

hardybuck

Teebor15 wrote: »

The government funded the road to the airport and contribute to its upkeep yet it doesn't return a cent to the exchequer...should they stop funding roads?...why do they do this if they are obviously not commercially viable!

Christ...roads are owned and funded by the state. The road doesn't just go to the airport, it goes other places too.

You have a point regarding the state providing funding for services where there is a clear public good in doing so and nobody else will, e.g. roads, but a privately owned airport is not comparable.

It's also really key that the airport's former CEO is the current Secretary General of the Department of Transport, who grew up in Waterford and still lives there. If he doesn't know whether this makes sense or not, nobody will.

Teebor15

hardybuck wrote: »

Christ...roads are owned and funded by the state. The road doesn't just go to the airport, it goes other places too.

You have a point regarding the state providing funding for services where there is a clear public good in doing so and nobody else will, e.g. roads, but a privately owned airport is not comparable.

It's also really key that the airport's former CEO is the current Secretary General of the Department of Transport, who grew up in Waterford and still lives there. If he doesn't know whether this makes sense or not, nobody will.

I'm making a point which you say you just said you acknowledge why getting all excited. Isnt the state funding a pedestrian bridge to facilitate a private company, the Saudis development of the North Quays. The airport is not entirely privately owned. The council own the land. The airport company run the airport.

My point being the airport needs to be treated as transport infrastructure just like roads, rail, bridges, etc...to act as a conduit for the easy passage of people and goods to drive business and tourism..so what if it needs a miniscle amount of state support..measuring its viability on its balance sheet alone is short sighted. It's viability needs to be measured on its effect on business and tourism in the region.

Graham Doyle was CEO in 2008 when a business case for a runway extension was submitted which resulted in €22.5m grant being approved. Unfortunately the crash put the stop to any capital project not gone to tender, which included this.

Graham stated recently in a PAC meeting that because of his past with the airport he purposely remains out of any decisions with it.

Deise Vu

road_high wrote: »

I never use the long term car parks unless going on holidays as it makes an absolutely massive difference. I nearly missed a flight once parking in some far flung car park and for work it’s not worth the stress and added time. Majority of people on business work travel would use the short terms.
I can assure you there is plenty of traffic on the M50 and M7 still at around 9.00 pm!

Again, your time was from lift-off in Heathrow. Were you working on the runway by any chance, just knocked off and climbed on the plane? Also please do not try to compare traffic on the M50 at 9PM and earlier in the day. Also Kilkenny is not Waterford. It takes a minimum of 4 hours before a flight to get from Waterford to Dublin Airport and even that is not leaving any room for delays. OK?

There are plenty of relevant points being made as to why Waterford Airport should not be funded, your little anecdote is emphatically not one of them.

dzilla

Dum_Dum wrote: »

It's a long thread so I'll sum up the reasons from the last few days from some posters as to why the south-east isn't deserving of a decent airport and why Dublin Airport is best:


- the N7/M7 roadworks are only temporary and all will be well when finished
- we can all move to Kilkenny, travel in one-direction only and only at night
- we can all get the big green bus and change at the Red Cow
- It's all our fault anyway - we didn't rebrand ourselves in the 80's like Kerry did.


Meanwhile, it still takes half a day to get to the airport.

Great post. I almost finished reading it.

dzilla

road_high wrote: »

Kerry is a lot more isolated than Waterford from the rest of the country- the car journey from Dublin is 4/5 hour torture. The airport there serves a lot to alleviate that isolation, more like say Cornwall or the Highlands of Scotland

Definitely would agree with that with realtion to their London and Spanish seasonal services. However the German routes are off the back of good tourism / marketing ground work by the people on the ground in Kerry.

road_high

dzilla wrote: »

Definitely would agree with that with realtion to their London and Spanish seasonal services. However the German routes are off the back of good tourism / marketing ground work by the people on the ground in Kerry.

Also Liebhrr cranes use it a lot back and forth to Germany. Kerry is a huge destiantion and even brand in Germany and the continent.

invara

With Irish Ferries cutting the Rosslare-France service in 2019 the region is further weakened.

This is an explicitly supported Dublin first policy by Government. We all knew this would happen when we saw the Government approved massive EIB loans to Irish Ferries for new Dublin based ships.

Oh Good God.

engiweirdo

invara wrote: »

With Irish Ferries cutting the Rosslare-France service in 2019 the region is further weakened.

This is an explicitly supported Dublin first policy by Government. We all knew this would happen when we saw the Government approved massive EIB loans to Irish Ferries for new Dublin based ships.

Oh Good God.

It's not even Dublin first. It's Dublin first, only and always. Its the cash cow that FG will feed and milk until it collapses from over use.

Schaudenfraude I know but I hope it goes tits up again. Wont be any worse off anyway.

Harry Palmr

If Dubs are thick enough to think spending an extra 6/8 hours on a ferry is preferable to driving 2 hours to Rosslare then that's what happens. Rosslare probably should be switching it's primary business to cargo with Brexit on the way.

andrewfaulk

invara wrote: »

With Irish Ferries cutting the Rosslare-France service in 2019 the region is further weakened.

This is an explicitly supported Dublin first policy by Government. We all knew this would happen when we saw the Government approved massive EIB loans to Irish Ferries for new Dublin based ships.

Oh Good God.

Can you please provide a (credible) link for this.. Don’t think any commercial operator would get state funds.. that would be state aid which is illegal

invara

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Can you please provide a (credible) link for this.. Don’t think any commercial operator would get state funds.. that would be state aid which is illegal

Here is the EIB link:
http://www.eib.org/en/projects/loan/list/index?from=&region=&sector=2010&to=&country=IE&fbclid=IwAR1PX6pZqTXDVGzbbkCfPVkWJdY5RjpCFdT0HUd0OfV4QfUSj4IkfqXgWFE

It shows 3 large investments- 2 directly to Irish Ferries (€90m and €75), and €100 to Dublin Port. Rosslare is owned partly by CIE who take around €2.5m of the surplus into their central coffers.

alta stare

invara wrote: »

Here is the EIB link:
http://www.eib.org/en/projects/loan/list/index?from=&region=&sector=2010&to=&country=IE&fbclid=IwAR1PX6pZqTXDVGzbbkCfPVkWJdY5RjpCFdT0HUd0OfV4QfUSj4IkfqXgWFE

It shows 3 large investments- 2 directly to Irish Ferries (€90m and €75), and €100 to Dublin Port. Rosslare is owned partly by CIE who take around €2.5m of the surplus into their central coffers.

To be fair there is talk of Rosslare getting significant funding aswell in preparation of Brexit. Iv been hearing it through work as we do work with people affiliated to Rosslare port. Apparently the works will happen.

Waterford Port is supposedly getting a slice of it too although not on the scale of Rosslare.

Fwiw i dont think Irish Ferries will pull the service i reckon it is posturing on their behalf....for what i dont know. Also the government are meeting with them today to see what is happening regarding their announcement.

dzilla

Strange one the Rosslare news. I would have thought with the M11 so close to completion Rosslare would become more attractive.

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

Here is the EIB link:
http://www.eib.org/en/projects/loan/list/index?from=&region=&sector=2010&to=&country=IE&fbclid=IwAR1PX6pZqTXDVGzbbkCfPVkWJdY5RjpCFdT0HUd0OfV4QfUSj4IkfqXgWFE

It shows 3 large investments- 2 directly to Irish Ferries (€90m and €75), and €100 to Dublin Port. Rosslare is owned partly by CIE who take around €2.5m of the surplus into their central coffers.

The European Investment Bank is a bank, and the shareholders are the member states. They give loans, not aid.

Deise Vu

alta stare wrote: »

To be fair there is talk of Rosslare getting significant funding aswell in preparation of Brexit. Iv been hearing it through work as we do work with people affiliated to Rosslare port. Apparently the works will happen.

Waterford Port is supposedly getting a slice of it too although not on the scale of Rosslare.

Fwiw i dont think Irish Ferries will pull the service i reckon it is posturing on their behalf....for what i dont know. Also the government are meeting with them today to see what is happening regarding their announcement.

The perennial problem for the South East in a nutshell from Brendan Howlin on Newstalk this morning: He was rightly up in arms about yet more centralising on Dublin and said with Brexit coming we need to be investing heavily in direct links with the continent at Rosslare, Cork and Foynes. It must have slipped his mind to mention Waterford Port.

invara

hardybuck wrote: »

The European Investment Bank is a bank, and the shareholders are the member states. They give loans, not aid.

Up close the Dublin branch is closely tied to the Irish state, it takes Irish Government policy into account when raising loans, EIB Dublin staff are populated by former Irish public servants, Des Carville sits on its board and it is located on Mount St. Government departments release press releases for each EIB loan. It borrows at the same rate as the Irish state, and there is an implied guarantee from the state.

EIB loans follow state imperatives. The 3 regional ports (New Ross, Rosslare and Waterford) narrowly missed out on strategic Ten-T designation (Limerick, Cork and Dublin) secured that standard and so are not a priority for strategic investment.

hardybuck

invara wrote: »

Up close the Dublin branch is closely tied to the Irish state, it takes Irish Government policy into account when raising loans, EIB Dublin staff are populated by former Irish public servants, Des Carville sits on its board and it is located on Mount St. Government departments release press releases for each EIB loan. It borrows at the same rate as the Irish state, and there is an implied guarantee from the state.

EIB loans follow state imperatives. The 3 regional ports (New Ross, Rosslare and Waterford) narrowly missed out on strategic Ten-T designation (Limerick, Cork and Dublin) secured that standard and so are not a priority for strategic investment.

As the member states are shareholders, Des Carville (who is a Civil Servant) would be there representing the Minister for Finance - correct.

You're also correct in setting out that the overall mission is to help finance projects which further EU objectives.

I'm sure you're also well up to speed on topic generally, but I was responding to those who suggested that state aid has and should be offered to the likes of Irish Ferries. While state aid can be directed to the port, it cannot and should not go to a privately owned service operator.

Subvention could be looked at, like the way that the islands have public service obligation services. That works by giving a company a monopoly to run a service where there wouldn't normally be enough revenue to generate a profit in the free market. That wouldn't work here as there are currently three companies running services form Rosslare.

dzilla

The wording of the irish ferries statement saying they are "unlikely" to run the service looks like they are calling bluff on the govt and want to negotiate some points.

914

Our airport has gone so quiet we have resorted to talking about boats instead of planes!

Harry Palmr

http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/wait-on-airports-future-almost-over/

A decision on Waterford Airport’s future is expected in the New Year, according to the Chief Executive of the City & County Council (WCCC). Councillors were told during last Thursday’s plenary meeting that the wait for a decision on whether the Department of Transport will put forward €5 million is nearly here.
CEO Michael Walsh said there has been correspondence from the Department in the last few weeks regarding the funding. The Council is putting about €2 million towards the airport while private sector interests are putting forward €5 million. The monies will go towards an extension of the runway.