Waterford Airport.

Johnboy1951

JCX BXC wrote: »

You did interpret it incorrectly. That's not what I said.

I don't expect private funding to pay for it, I don't see why it should be done.

You see no reason for a runway extension.
You see no commercial aviation use for the airport.

So what exactly do you think should happen with the airport now?

Neworder79

JCX BXC wrote: »

My position here is clear, every single other airport in Ireland sustains turboprop flights, and Waterford can't, then it's simply untenable.

This is just factually wrong.

What mythical Irish airport survives independently on 'turboprop' services? None. Some airports 'sustain' turboprop carriers in addition to their core jet operators.

The closure of commercial routes from Galway, Sligo and Waterford has proven that they just don't deliver the economies of scale needed to run a modern airport campus and services. Even with state top-up subsidy all 3 failed to attract commercial turboprop operators (of which there are very few in Europe) and Irelands bespoke turboprop airline went bust.

Ireland West has only 2 FlyBe turboprop routes BHX & EDI (MAN is often operated by a an Embraer Jet) out of 20+ routes. Demand on those routes was built up by previous carrier BMI Baby using 737 jets for 10 years. Moving to a turboprop carrier has seen a decline in numbers on those routes.

Ryanair has been there 30 years delivering the bulk of the airports passengers along with Aer Lingus and charter tour operators because of the economy of scale a daily 200 pax jet offers.

Kerry / Donegal only sustain a turboprop service because of Government PSO subsidising the Dublin route and that in in turn paying for 12hour ATC and airport services otherwise unviable. Again Ryanair 737 routes provide the bulk of Kerrys passengers and revenue.

Turboprops are perfectly fine aircraft, but they have fewer seats typically meaning higher operating cost and thus fares historically more suited to busy business hub feeder routes. They can be more prone cancellation (narrower weather operating window than larger jets). There is a perception of being less comfortable or safe in bad weather that also make them less appealing to the travelling customer who may choose a rival jet service and often will drive further to do so.

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'm not sure how it can be argued that a Ryanair flight stimulates the demand for these turboprop flights at other airports, so it's clear the market is smaller in Waterford.

You seem to have missed the Ryanair phenomenon of the last 20 years. One of the worlds largest airlines, huge brand recognition, massive European network, top on-time and safety record. And most importantly ultra low-cost point to point model which has grown demand massively across Europe, bringing affordable connectivity and marketing might to peripheral, lower income regions where legacy carriers services were not viable. Most of this are Leisure/Friends and Family traffic.

Airports and local governments all over Europe are competing for Ryanair aircraft precisely because they are the biggest demand generators!

Bards

Neworder79 wrote: »

JCX BXC wrote: »

My position here is clear, every single other airport in Ireland sustains turboprop flights, and Waterford can't, then it's simply untenable.

This is just factually wrong.

What mythical Irish airport survives independently on 'turboprop' services? None. Some airports 'sustain' turboprop carriers in addition to their core jet operators.

The closure of commercial routes from Galway, Sligo and Waterford has proven that they just don't deliver the economies of scale needed to run a modern airport campus and services. Even with state top-up subsidy all 3 failed to attract commercial turboprop operators (of which there are very few in Europe) and Irelands bespoke turboprop airline went bust.

Ireland West has only 2 FlyBe turboprop routes BHX & EDI (MAN is often operated by a an Embraer Jet) out of 20+ routes. Demand on those routes was built up by previous carrier BMI Baby using 737 jets for 10 years. Moving to a turboprop carrier has seen a decline in numbers on those routes.

Ryanair has been there 30 years delivering the bulk of the airports passengers along with Aer Lingus and charter tour operators because of the economy of scale a daily 200 pax jet offers.

Kerry / Donegal only sustain a turboprop service because of Government PSO subsidising the Dublin route and that in in turn paying for 12hour ATC and airport services otherwise unviable. Again Ryanair 737 routes provide the bulk of Kerrys passengers and revenue.

Turboprops are perfectly fine aircraft, but they have fewer seats typically meaning higher operating cost and thus fares historically more suited to busy business hub feeder routes. They can be more prone cancellation (narrower weather operating window than larger jets). There is a perception of being less comfortable or safe in bad weather that also make them less appealing to the travelling customer who may choose a rival jet service and often will drive further to do so.

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'm not sure how it can be argued that a Ryanair flight stimulates the demand for these turboprop flights at other airports, so it's clear the market is smaller in Waterford.

You seem to have missed the Ryanair phenomenon of the last 20 years. One of the worlds largest airlines, huge brand recognition, massive European network, top on-time and safety record. And most importantly ultra low-cost point to point model which has grown demand massively across Europe, bringing affordable connectivity and marketing might to peripheral, lower income regions where legacy carriers services were not viable. Most of this are Leisure/Friends and Family traffic.

Airports and local governments all over Europe are competing for Ryanair aircraft precisely because they are the biggest demand generators!

What a comprehensive post... Well done

Teebor15

JCX BXC wrote: »

My position here is clear, every single other airport in Ireland sustains turboprop flights, and Waterford can't, then it's simply untenable.

Your view is very one dimensional and simplistic. "If you can't fill a small plane then how are you going to fill a big plane?". You're not considering the many variables like branding, perception, and most importantly price.

You're interpretation of "sustains" needs some work! As pointed out already, Kerry has six routes with Ryanair B738 jet services and 1 turboprop service to Dublin which is only there because it a PSO (subsidised)!

Kerry sustains 2 Ryanair flights to London most days. If they hadn't built their jet runway would they now have a turboprop service to London? Not a chance, people would just go to Cork & Shannon. It survives because it is offering the same product as those airports.

You are correct when you say the motorway has killed the Waterford routes. Why? because Waterford cannot not provided the same product as Dublin. But the Motorway is a two-way street. Build the runway, get the low cost carrier in and suddenly we can match the product.

Will it work? Who knows. I believe it will and so do the private investors (Who are up stumping hard cash) and the Government. For such a small amount of state support ( which is buttons compared to the money the other regionals all got over the years in PSO funding) it is worth the risk.

Your staunch objection to this investment this has now been reduced to one line throwaway deriding remarks. The fact that the project is progressing steadily against your objections is both amusing but also a little worrying regarding your mental health. Try not let it upset you, and mind yourself!

azimuth17

I hope people will forgive me, but it seems that almost every thread on the Waterford ford forum has people ready to prove conclusively that Waterford should not have this that or the other. It really is tiresome. If we have aspirations we have aspirations. We don't have to continuously prove over and over again to the same people, none of whom are from this area, that something should work in the south east.

Masala

For such a small amount of state support ( which is buttons compared to the money the other regionals all got over the years in PSO funding) it is worth the risk.

Just to be clear... Waterford got its fair share (if not the lions share) of Government funding over the years.

Teebor15

Masala wrote: »

Just to be clear... Waterford got its fair share (if not the lions share) of Government funding over the years.

Lions share? Haha don't make me laugh! It had a PSO for about 1 year back in 1990 I think. The others with the exception of Knock had a PSO for about 20 years. Opex and CAPEX was issued on a pretty even basis between the airports. With different airports getting more or less in any given year depending on needs. But overall Government funding Waterford would be bottom of the list by some distance...Just to be clear!

Masala

Teebor15 wrote: »

Lions share? Haha don't make me laugh! It had a PSO for about 1 year back in 1990 I think. The others with the exception of Knock had a PSO for about 20 years. Opex and CAPEX was issued on a pretty even basis between the airports. With different airports getting more or less in any given year depending on needs. But overall Government funding Waterford would be bottom of the list by some distance...Just to be clear!

Ahh come on..... Waterford was getting Opex in the million bracket for years. The others were 220-300k amounts. They were Top of the list every year til the services ceased.

tbarry31

It's happening can people just be happy and help make it work....

Christy Browne

It must give some satisfaction to people to tell a region of 500,000 they don’t deserve this and that. Pay your taxes, know your place and drive to Dublin/Cork if you want anything else.

They wonder then why the people of Waterford and the South East are sick and tired of it. We’re gonna grab this opportunity by the throat and make the most of it, I can assure ye that. **** the begrudgers.

Deiseen

Christy Browne wrote: »

It must give some satisfaction to people to tell a region of 500,000 they don’t deserve this and that. Pay your taxes, know your place and drive to Dublin/Cork if you want anything else.

They wonder then why the people of Waterford and the South East are sick and tired of it. We’re gonna grab this opportunity by the throat and make the most of it, I can assure ye that. **** the begrudgers.

Make Waterford Great Again!!!

curmudgeonly

Planning won't go in for the northern extension till September is the latest I am hearing, two houses have to be purchased.

Bards

50m Euro for the Ryder Cup approved with a nod and a wink and the fast tracking of Adare Bypass puts the lousy 5m govt funding for Waterford Airport Subject to conditions into perspective

DLS_75

The Ryder cup will bring in between 150m and 200m. That just makes good business sense.

Bhoy1967

curmudgeonly wrote: »

Planning won't go in for the northern extension till September is the latest I am hearing, two houses have to be purchased.

Does that need to go in as a CPO or was it already scoped as part of the project? Surely this was envisaged when application for funding was submitted??

curmudgeonly

Bhoy1967 wrote: »

Does that need to go in as a CPO or was it already scoped as part of the project? Surely this was envisaged when application for funding was submitted??

AFAIK it is a negotiated process rather than the cumbersome CPO route, underway for some time but stalled due to lack of finance to complete.

Teebor15

Bhoy1967 wrote: »

Does that need to go in as a CPO or was it already scoped as part of the project? Surely this was envisaged when application for funding was submitted??

Yes this was foreseen and is all part of the cost of the project.
The 12m is to bring the airport from its current state to B737 / A320 ready, including runway, taxiway, terminal, carpark, equipment, etc.

As reported in the News & Star last week, the Airport doesn't envisage beginning construction until April of next year. This is due to the dragged out and delayed announcement of Government funding, so the possibility of having the runway in place for 2020 is now unrealistic. With that in mind and in consultation with engineers who advise to complete the works during the dry summer months rather in the muck of winter.

Although I believe all the surveying, reports, etc are all complete and the planning application ready to be posted, firstly I believe the following steps have to take place. (In reverse order)

1 - Construction can't take place until planning granted

2 - Planning cannot be submitted on land that the airport doesn't own or have an agreement on yet.

3 - They can't buy the land until the investors stump up the cash.

4 - The investors won't stump up the cash until the ownership/equity of the airport is sorted out.

5 - The ownership/equity can't be sorted out until the current shareholders are consulted and in agreement with the new proposal probably in the form of an EGM.

Everything was on pause for the last 12 months waiting for the Government announcement so hopefully the wheels can now be set in motion. But these things take time so just because everything might go quite every now and then doesn't mean the project is not progressing.

Road-Hog

DLS_75 wrote: »

The Ryder cup will bring in between 150m and 200m. That just makes good business sense.

Always wonder about these ‘return’ figures for hosting of sporting events. Can they actually be measured with any accuracy.....?

Bards

Road-Hog wrote: »

DLS_75 wrote: »

The Ryder cup will bring in between 150m and 200m. That just makes good business sense.

Always wonder about these ‘return’ figures for hosting of sporting events. Can they actually be measured with any accuracy.....?

Its just amazing they can find 50 million euro for this at the flick of their fingers when it wasn't in the capital plan... No oversight, no cost analysis, just a wink and a nod... Was it a brown envelope especially considering Adare Manor has just got a multi million euro makeover.... It just stinks to high heavens

Deiseen

Bards wrote: »

Its just amazing they can find 50 million euro for this at the flick of their fingers when it wasn't in the capital plan... No oversight, no cost analysis, just a wink and a nod... Was it a brown envelope especially considering Adare Manor has just got a multi million euro makeover.... It just stinks to high heavens

I agree, obviously its a great thing to have and will bring in huge money BUT it's how easy it happened but we've people dying on the way to cork and we are told we need to go through a convoluted process that takes years just to get 10% of this.

Look at the North Quays, €300 million of private investment for €100 million and to say the arse is being dragged out of it would be an understatement.

Road-Hog

Deiseen wrote: »

I agree, obviously its a great thing to have and will bring in huge money BUT it's how easy it happened but we've people dying on the way to cork and we are told we need to go through a convoluted process that takes years just to get 10% of this.

Look at the North Quays, €300 million of private investment for €100 million and to say the arse is being dragged out of it would be an understatement.

Don’t think any one or company has been just gifted the €50m. No check or electronic transfer has been given directly to Adare manor....or McManus

Harry Palmr

This is clearly about who you know, Waterford can't even land an Irish Open. Still that's a subject for a different thread.

Deiseen

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This is clearly about who you know, Waterford can't even land an Irish Open. Still that's a subject for a different thread.

Have we ever had it? How does the bidding process work?

Harry Palmr

Nope, I do remember Tramore hosting a big event one year but not the Open and Waterford Castle at Faithlegg staged the Ladies Open twice

Speak Now

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This is clearly about who you know, Waterford can't even land an Irish Open. Still that's a subject for a different thread.

Waterford hasn't tried to land an Irish open, Tramore and Faithlegg probably barely make top 100 courses in Ireland.

What's strange is not one links course in the county!

ImAHappyCamper

Speak Now wrote: »

Waterford hasn't tried to land an Irish open, Tramore and Faithlegg probably barely make top 100 courses in Ireland.

What's strange is not one links course in the county!

Dunmore East golf club could be a fantastic links course if they got serious investment.

Speak Now

ImAHappyCamper wrote: »

Dunmore East golf club could be a fantastic links course if they got serious investment.

Its parkland though not links.

Bhoy1967

Gone a bit quiet on this front. Any updates on progress?

Bhoy1967

Teebor15 wrote: »

Yes this was foreseen and is all part of the cost of the project.
The 12m is to bring the airport from its current state to B737 / A320 ready, including runway, taxiway, terminal, carpark, equipment, etc.

As reported in the News & Star last week, the Airport doesn't envisage beginning construction until April of next year. This is due to the dragged out and delayed announcement of Government funding, so the possibility of having the runway in place for 2020 is now unrealistic. With that in mind and in consultation with engineers who advise to complete the works during the dry summer months rather in the muck of winter.

Although I believe all the surveying, reports, etc are all complete and the planning application ready to be posted, firstly I believe the following steps have to take place. (In reverse order)

1 - Construction can't take place until planning granted

2 - Planning cannot be submitted on land that the airport doesn't own or have an agreement on yet.

3 - They can't buy the land until the investors stump up the cash.

4 - The investors won't stump up the cash until the ownership/equity of the airport is sorted out.

5 - The ownership/equity can't be sorted out until the current shareholders are consulted and in agreement with the new proposal probably in the form of an EGM.

Everything was on pause for the last 12 months waiting for the Government announcement so hopefully the wheels can now be set in motion. But these things take time so just because everything might go quite every now and then doesn't mean the project is not progressing.

Great informative post. Thanks a lot for the update. Good to see all the work that is and was being done while waiting for the approval of €5m!!

Thanks

Muttley79

https://www.facebook.com/359950280752246/posts/2580365755377343/
Fine Gael have clearly given up on waterford.revoking on Waterford airport,won't invest anymore money on the north quay development that's threatened to get pulled this november.wont invest in university Waterford and our hospital falling apart.absolutly disgusting we are left to rot in the south east while the rest of the country is booming