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Pickle of a situation

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  • 03-11-2012 9:38am
    #1
    Kristobal
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭


    We have been renting the same place for 3.5 yrs through a letting agent. Always paid the rent in time and kept the house in a tip top condition. The tenancy is not registered with PRTB afaik. My o/h applied recently for JS allowance and was also given Rent Allowance forms by the CWO.

    I then asked the agent to fill out the bit on the form where the landlord details were required. The agent however said the LL didn't want to deal with the Social Welfare and all and refused to supply the info...

    I am in a poor paid f/t job and scraping by to pay the monthly rent so RA will defo help a lot. Moving out is not an option as I'd hate to uproot the child ( friends, school etc).
    Anyone had similar experiences and how they dealt with them? Cheers folks


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    #2
    not even wrong
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭not even wrong


    Kristobal wrote: »
    I then asked the agent to fill out the bit on the form where the landlord details were required. The agent however said the LL didn't want to deal with the Social Welfare and all and refused to supply the info...
    Most likely the landlord is evading tax.

    Don't take no for an answer -- remember that you are in the stronger position here as the landlord is not allowed evict you for going on RA. If they give you any grief remind them that the PRTB will fine them a five-figure sum if they try an illegal eviction and the Revenue will be interested in the landlord's tax affairs too.


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    #3
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    not even wrong wrote: »
    Most likely the landlord is evading tax.

    Don't take no for an answer -- remember that you are in the stronger position here as the landlord is not allowed evict you for going on RA. If they give you any grief remind them that the PRTB will fine them a five-figure sum if they try an illegal eviction and the Revenue will be interested in the landlord's tax affairs too.

    You can't assume the LL is evading tax! The LL is within his rights not to accept RA. So you can either reason with him, move out or make up the rent yourselves.

    Obviously try to reason with him in the first instance, as good long standing tenants, he really won't want to lose you. He is likely to be concerned about you seeking a reduction in rent, and delays in processing RA and rent being paid.


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    #4
    not even wrong
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭not even wrong


    StillWaters wrote: »
    The LL is within his rights not to accept RA.
    At the outset of a tenancy, yes. There are no grounds for a landlord to terminate an existing Part 4 tenancy because the tenant needs to change to the rent allowance scheme.
    You can't assume the LL is evading tax!
    exactly, which is why I said "most likely".


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    #5
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    StillWaters wrote: »
    ... The LL is within his rights not to accept RA....
    Really? I doubt that. While he has some freedom on deciding who to accept as a tenant, when the tenant is installed that freedom is largely gone. What is at issue here is how the tenant funds the rent.

    Yes, he is free to decline completing the RA form but, in my opinion, to do so is to be quite unreasonable.
    So you can either reason with him, move out or make up the rent yourselves.
    There is only one good option there: to "reason" with him. Tell him that without RA you will be unable to pay the rent.
    Obviously try to reason with him in the first instance, as good long standing tenants, he really won't want to lose you. He is likely to be concerned about you seeking a reduction in rent, and delays in processing RA and rent being paid.
    That's a kind interpretation of his motives! I'd note that the tenancy is not registered with the PRTB and draw a different conclusion.


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    #6
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    If the landlord's using an agent, I seriously doubt the tenancy's not registered.


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    #7
    Kristobal
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭Kristobal


    First and foremost - thanks a mill all for your replies and suggestions.These are greatly appreciated.

    The communication is done through the agent. I haven't met or got LL contact details to talk to them directly and reason with them.

    The agent says the LL is being put off by Welfare delays and inaccuracies in processing RA payments. Is RA paid into LL account directly?

    I suspect, most likely, LL is avoiding tax.


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    #8
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Legally, the agent HAS to supply you with the landlord's contact details. Does the agent look after the maintenance of the property, or does the landlord? Who do you have to contact if there's a problem?

    As far as the RA goes. Yes, a lot of landlords won't accept it for various reasons. One of the main ones is the fact RA takes so long to set up, and they worry that the allowance will go to the tenant, who in turn won't pay the rent.

    We're on RA ourselves, but luckily our landlord is sound. He gets his rent paid on time every month. But there's a significant minority who won't pay, that's true. Conversely, there's people in regular employment who won't pay either!!

    Why don't you offer to arrange to pay the RA straight to his bank account? The landlord obviously knows you're a good tenant, so he might go for it. I would point out that if you were forced to move, then it might be a while before the place is re-let, which will lose him money. He might not get as good a tenant as you either!

    Like I've said. I seriously doubt the landlord's dodging tax. The agency would HAVE to make sure he's PRTB compliant.


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    #9
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,404 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    If the agent refuses to give you the landlord's details, you can get them from the PRTB - phone up and explain the situation.


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    #10
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    Victor wrote: »
    If the agent refuses to give you the landlord's details, you can get them from the PRTB - phone up and explain the situation.

    Maybe not.
    The tenancy is not registered with PRTB afaik


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    #11
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    If the landlord's using an agent, I seriously doubt the tenancy's not registered.

    My ex-landlord went through an agent. At the end of the tenancy when she retained my deposit I went through the PRTB and found she wasnt registered. Since then on talking to a few friends they have also found out their LLs are not registered with PRTB and they go through estate agents aswell. Recently it has come to my attention the amount of LLs who employ estate agents to look after their affairs even when the LLs are not registered. I know thats not the main point being discussed here.... just letting you know that landlords who employ estate agents and PRTB registered landlords dont necessarily go hand in hand.....


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    #12
    Agent_47
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭Agent_47


    Here's one for you to ponder from a landlords ("LL") perspective, when renewing the house insurance for a rented house the landlord is being asked to confirm that the tenant(s) are in full time employment ("FTE").
    More and more LL are being refused insurance where there is a Rent Assitance ("RA") tenant in situ. From a LL perspective he or she isn't to know that the tenants are not in FTE if they haven't been asked to complete the RA form.
    Currently with insurance being costly it is not in the LL interest to have RA tenants in situ.


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    #13
    ABajaninCork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,411 ✭✭✭ABajaninCork


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    My ex-landlord went through an agent. At the end of the tenancy when she retained my deposit I went through the PRTB and found she wasnt registered. Since then on talking to a few friends they have also found out their LLs are not registered with PRTB and they go through estate agents aswell. Recently it has come to my attention the amount of LLs who employ estate agents to look after their affairs even when the LLs are not registered. I know thats not the main point being discussed here.... just letting you know that landlords who employ estate agents and PRTB registered landlords dont necessarily go hand in hand.....

    Ah. Perhaps I am a little naive...I always thought it would be in the agent's interest's to ensure their clients were fully compliant. Obviously not!

    In that case, OP. You need to make a phone call on Monday!!


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    #14
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Kristobal wrote: »
    The tenancy is not registered with PRTB afaik.
    I registered a tenancy just over 4 years ago with the PRTB and never thought any more of it until I went to renew (stupid rule) the same tenancy last month. I searched for the tenancy in their "database" online only to realise that nothing was there!

    I called them up and confirmed that it was registered 4 years ago but they couldn't explain why it never made it to the online list (great system they have there by the looks of it).

    The PRTB are useless. The information not being there doesn't mean anything.

    If LL is using reputable agent he's almost certainly registered. The agents won't proceed without it and the landlord's PPS etc. Stuff that dodgy LLs won't hand over.


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    #15
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    ABajaninCork wrote: »

    Ah. Perhaps I am a little naive...I always thought it would be in the agent's interest's to ensure their clients were fully compliant. Obviously not!

    In that case, OP. You need to make a phone call on Monday!!

    Yes I would totally agree with u there but I think many agents aren't bothered if the LL is registered so long as they are getting paid.

    Yes OP def make a call and see if this is a concern. You can also check on the PRTB website to see if your LL is registered although this is not updated on a daily basis.

    Sorry just read previous post!! Yes PRTB website can be very out of date. However, when my ex LL did not appear to be registered on the website I rang PRTB to get them to confirm same with me. They checked and gave me written confirmation that my LL had never been registered with them. LL was also employing a (seemingly) reputable agent. LL provided all pps number and details to me when I signed lease. Just never bothered registering. Also to note... This wasn't their only property they were renting. And this is the same for many people I know who are renting.


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    #16
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,404 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    Ah. Perhaps I am a little naive...I always thought it would be in the agent's interest's to ensure their clients were fully compliant. Obviously not!
    It generally is, not least because estate agents need to comply with money laundering laws.


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    #17
    Agent_47
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭Agent_47


    murphaph wrote: »
    I registered a tenancy just over 4 years ago with the PRTB and never thought any more of it until I went to renew (stupid rule) the same tenancy last month. I searched for the tenancy in their "database" online only to realise that nothing was there!

    I called them up and confirmed that it was registered 4 years ago but they couldn't explain why it never made it to the online list (great system they have there by the looks of it).

    The PRTB are useless. The information not being there doesn't mean anything.

    If LL is using reputable agent he's almost certainly registered. The agents won't proceed without it and the landlord's PPS etc. Stuff that dodgy LLs won't hand over.


    Didn't stop big Phil getting and using the PRTB data to send out reminder letters for the Household charge. It might not be online but it is there.


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    #18
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Here's one for you to ponder from a landlords ("LL") perspective, when renewing the house insurance for a rented house the landlord is being asked to confirm that the tenant(s) are in full time employment ("FTE").
    More and more LL are being refused insurance where there is a Rent Assitance ("RA") tenant in situ. From a LL perspective he or she isn't to know that the tenants are not in FTE if they haven't been asked to complete the RA form.
    Currently with insurance being costly it is not in the LL interest to have RA tenants in situ.

    Accurate unfortunately.
    Zurich (for certain) and possibly other insurance agencies apply a considerable weighting for landlord's insurance if their tenants are not in Fulltime employment, and depending on the area, may refuse cover in its entirety, if a tenant is no longer in full time employment.


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    #19
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    murphaph wrote: »
    I registered a tenancy just over 4 years ago with the PRTB and never thought any more of it until I went to renew (stupid rule) the same tenancy last month. I searched for the tenancy in their "database" online only to realise that nothing was there!

    I called them up and confirmed that it was registered 4 years ago but they couldn't explain why it never made it to the online list (great system they have there by the looks of it).

    The PRTB are useless. The information not being there doesn't mean anything.

    If LL is using reputable agent he's almost certainly registered. The agents won't proceed without it and the landlord's PPS etc. Stuff that dodgy LLs won't hand over.

    I'm personally familiar with 2 cases, including one involving an eviction that took over a year and resulted in over 20k of damage to a townhouse in Galway- where the tenancies had been registered with the PRTB, however were not on the online register and the landlord's were facing what can only be described as blackmail attempts by the tenants who thought they had them over a barrel.

    All tenancies should be registered with the PRTB, and all landlords should be tax and code compliant. Registering the tenancy doesn't imply a landlord is tax compliant (though they'd be stupid not to be), apparent lack of a PRTB registration- also does not imply the tenancy is unregistered- its a very imperfect system.

    Don't make assumptions.


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    #20
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    OP- Many landlords (and tenants) have had bad experiences of dealing with the Rent Allowance / Rent Supplement / MIS and other disbursement schemes. Many landlord's would genuinely rather nothing to do with anything other than private tenants. The paperwork can be onerous (and lost by the CWO numerous times before its processed), payments can be witheld or purloined, payment dates can vary on a monthly basis which can screw up a landlord's mortgage payment record, and the big bugbear- is payments can be unilaterally reduced without warning, and the landlord given no notice whatsoever (though the writing is on the wall, and it should be expected as a matter of course).

    Many landlords have genuine reasons for not wanting the trouble of dealing with social welfare, the HSE, CWOs etc- it is hassle and it is time consuming. If the property is in an area where there are no shortage of prospective private tenants- they can afford to rule out RA/RS tenants- if its a more rural area or an area with an excess of rental property- perhaps they may not be able to ignore this market.

    You need to talk to the landlord in the first instance- you've been a good tenant to date, there is no reason he or she shouldn't expect you to be a good tenant going forward. If he or she is unwilling to expend the extra time and effort associated with social welfare payments (along with the extra costs involved for them)- so be it- you have until the elapse of the lease to decide where to move- providing you continue to comply with the lease as it currently stands.


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    #21
    Kristobal
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭Kristobal


    ABajaninCork wrote: »
    Legally, the agent HAS to supply you with the landlord's contact details. Does the agent look after the maintenance of the property, or does the landlord? Who do you have to contact if there's a problem?

    We call the agent if there's a problem with the house. Does it say some where on PRTB site that the agent has an obligation to supply the tenant with the LL's contact details?


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    #22
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    This is taken from the Residential Tenancies Act (2004) in regards to the Obligations of the Landlord:

    (f) provide to the tenant particulars of the means by which the tenant may, at all reasonable times, contact him or her or his or her authorised agent.

    Here's the link: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/sec0012.html#sec12

    From this I take it that as long as you have an agents contact details it is not necessarily an obligation of the landlord or agent to provide you with the LL's contact details.

    Am very happy to be corrected tho as this is just my interpretation of the Tenancies Act. Hope this helps.


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    #23
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    Thats a correct interpretaion Sligo, it's one of the key benefits of having an agent from a LL point of view.


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    #24
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    In many areas,average rent is over ra limit,
    therefore not much reason to go for rent allowance in that area,if you are a landlord.
    NO one has a right to presume landlord x , will accept rent allowance.
    its not a perfect system.
    I know landlord,s in rural areas who are very happy to get any good tenant, whether its ra or private tenant.
    no point in looking at a flat x, for 90 e per week,
    If ra limit is 70 for a sinle person, so if the landlord takes ra , it is irrelevant in that case.


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