DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

Steroo

Great post doc! Can relate to all points made

Gavlor

I'm now questioning myself*!! Thanks DOC.

*that'll never happen

ncmc

StephenRooney wrote: »

Great post doc! Can relate to all points made

+1... great post, all very true. When you think about the training for Dublin, most of the training was done during the summer with nice weather and long evenings etc. Also, the mileage was significantly lower; I'm at week 8 of P&D which is 54 miles, for Dublin I followed Hal Higdon 2 - week 8 of HH2 calls for 30 miles - that's 80% higher mileage between the same weeks of the two plans, no wonder we're finding it significantly more difficult! I think I peaked at 36 miles during HH2 and thought myself killed

I think the points about running alone are also true and I live in a small village, so I end up running round and round the same roads until my neighbours start to question my sanity! So all in all, it doesn't make for fun running

dazza21ie

ncmc wrote: »

I think the points about running alone are also true and I live in a small village, so I end up running round and round the same roads until my neighbours start to question my sanity! So all in all, it doesn't make for fun running

That's the beauty of doing longer runs very early in mornings.... you can pass someone's house a few times before they get up so they might only see you once!

I much prefer going out in the morning than eveing for a run but would fully agree with Meno. Don't think the body is fully ready for a harder run in the morning if you are in the habit of going out on empty. I have noticed lately that even with easy runs easy pace is quicker when running at lunchtime than when out in the morning.

rasher_m

Best solution would be to drop all relationships.

KillianByrne

rasher_m wrote: »

Best solution would be to drop all relationships.

If it means i'll run a sub4....

Runchick

Great post indeed doc, very inspirational. When I read about the lovely weather you were having I looked out the window and realised we now had the same. So as soon as hubby came in I legged it back out the door and finished this morning's effort 3.5 miles, 2 at 8.10 pace - I was wound up like a spring and wanted to run faster but kept HR below 165 (it was around 178bmp when I tried to hold 8.30 pace this morning :eek:). So lessons learnt today - effort definitely affected by crap weather and I need to get meself out in the evenings more...running mojo is back

KillianByrne

Runchick wrote: »

Great post indeed doc, very inspirational. When I read about the lovely weather you were having I looked out the window and realised we now had the same. So as soon as hubby came in I legged it back out the door and finished this morning's effort 3.5 miles, 2 at 8.10 pace - I was wound up like a spring and wanted to run faster but kept HR below 165 (it was around 178bmp when I tried to hold 8.30 pace this morning :eek:). So lessons learnt today - effort definitely affected by crap weather and I need to get meself out in the evenings more...running mojo is back

Are you allowed do that - break the run into two bits? I think you should have to do it all again.

Willie42

Just catching up on last few days - Congrats PM, what a beauty, best wishes to all the family

scriba

Great post docjewel. Hits several nails on several heads.

Just a point on the early runs vs later runs debate. It depends on what you're used to. I tend to find early running easier these days, and I would do sessions before breakfast too. I find my body tends to crash at points during the day, and if there's a long stretch between lunch and when I get out to run in the evening, I can find it a real struggle.

New runner

Runchick wrote: »

Everything except LSR is done first thing. Its usually the only time I can get out and hasn't been a problem energy wise until now. I take your point though, might try to get out in the evenings for the harder sessions when I can

Well done to u RC, I honestly couldn't imagine stepping out door for a run at 5.30 or anything b4 7.30 n that was only in summer last year for LSR on a Saturday/ Sunday morning! N to even contemplate running 8.30's in those weather conditions !!! No way! So well done u!

Laois_Man

So a question for you crazy early morning runners. Do you get up early enough to allow yourselves time for a proper warm up before going out? I also do most of my running in the morning and I'm always guilty of just giving myself enough time to do the run, shower, change, breakfast, sort out the little person in my house and get to work. So warm ups get hugely neglected. So do proper warm downs and stretches in fact....and I do suffer a bit with niggly strains.....probably as a direct consequence.

Murph_D

ncmc wrote: »

Also, the mileage was significantly lower; I'm at week 8 of P&D which is 54 miles, for Dublin I followed Hal Higdon 2 - week 8 of HH2 calls for 30 miles - that's 80% higher mileage between the same weeks of the two plans, no wonder we're finding it significantly more difficult!

I have nothing against P&D. I've read the book, but for me the step up in training time and distance is just too much at this stage of my running (and personal) life. Plus I would worry about getting injured doing that kind of mileage (only running regularly for about 22 months).

I'm doing HH Intermediate 2. On that plan, week 8 is 41 miles - so significantly more than HHN2, which I followed for DCM2013, and I would think more than good enough to run a good time, which of course depends on so many variables: training, running form, nutrition, hydration, weather, luck, health, weight, the course etc. etc. etc. Imagine the effect of P&D mileage on an overweight person with bad technique - the kind of guy whose feet you can hear slapping hard off the pavement, for example.

But each to his and hers - the important thing is to feel progress is being made. And to make it to the starting line in one piece!

New runner

Laois_Man wrote: »

So a question for you crazy early morning runners. Do you get up early enough to allow yourselves time for a proper warm up before going out? I also do most of my running in the morning and I'm always guilty of just giving myself enough time to do the run, shower, change, breakfast, sort out the little person in my house and get to work. So warm ups get hugely neglected. So do proper warm downs and stretches in fact....and I do suffer a bit with niggly strains.....probably as a direct consequence.

Don't know about others but I don't do any warm up exercises or anything, just slow 10 - 15 mins run to warm up n then either continue at this pace if recovery or do whatever planned session on schedule n end with 10 - 15 min slow run to cool down. Do try do stretches at end though!

docjewel

scriba wrote: »

Great post docjewel. Hits several nails on several heads.

Just a point on the early runs vs later runs debate. It depends on what you're used to. I tend to find early running easier these days, and I would do sessions before breakfast too. I find my body tends to crash at points during the day, and if there's a long stretch between lunch and when I get out to run in the evening, I can find it a real struggle.

I'd be similar to you scriba.
I know i didnt eat before this mornings run & looking at the data afterwards there was close to 2000 calories burnt which is the vast majority of my daily intake(still not loosing weight though:() but for me my secret trick is a decent proper dinner the evening before with a bowl of mixed fruit salad before bed & if possible head to the bed early.

I also find that if I can get the run out of the way in the morning I feel it doesn't impact too much on family life(Mrs docjewel may not agree with this point:D) where as if I was to wait until the evening there are so many variables that can get in the way that there is a high possibility of not getting out for the planned run but as Scriba said its probably whatever your used to.

docjewel

Laois_Man wrote: »

So a question for you crazy early morning runners. Do you get up early enough to allow yourselves time for a proper warm up before going out? I also do most of my running in the morning and I'm always guilty of just giving myself enough time to do the run, shower, change, breakfast, sort out the little person in my house and get to work. So warm ups get hugely neglected. So do proper warm downs and stretches in fact....and I do suffer a bit with niggly strains.....probably as a direct consequence.

Similar to New Runner,warm-up is usually just a few slower miles & cool down again includes a few miles at slower pace but I do try to do some stretches afterwards.
After listening to others on this thread I invested in a foam roller last week & while I haven't used it every night yet I can actually feel the difference after the LSR last weekend,especially in the calfs,well worth the investment just have to try & use it most nights:)

Dilbert75

I'm having a similar "crisis", for want of a better word. I'm using the P&D 55 mile 12 week programme and it's getting to the point where the fun is evaporating. I got out on the bike (courtesy of the clotheshorse to work scheme) on Monday for the first time in about 4 months and realised how much I'd missed it. But there's just not room in my week for a couple of hours on the bike as well as all the running.

So that gets me to thinking why I'm doing all this and why I'm putting so much effort into it. And the truth is that I'm really not sure. All along I'd intended to do HHI2 but then just fell into the P&D for no particular reason. And the step up from HHN2 is massive, as many more of you are finding out. And it's really taking the good out of it for me at the moment.

On the other hand I haven't raced since Dungarvan and maybe that's a factor. And there's no doubt that I'd in no way have been able to do the session I did tonight if I wasn't doing some heavy-duty training. But I'm really going to have to have a think about what I'm looking to get out of my running, and what I'm willing to put into it, once Limerick is over.

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I'm having a similar "crisis", for want of a better word. I'm using the P&D 55 mile 12 week programme and it's getting to the point where the fun is evaporating. I got out on the bike (courtesy of the clotheshorse to work scheme) on Monday for the first time in about 4 months and realised how much I'd missed it. But there's just not room in my week for a couple of hours on the bike as well as all the running.

So that gets me to thinking why I'm doing all this and why I'm putting so much effort into it. And the truth is that I'm really not sure. All along I'd intended to do HHI2 but then just fell into the P&D for no particular reason. And the step up from HHN2 is massive, as many more of you are finding out. And it's really taking the good out of it for me at the moment.

On the other hand I haven't raced since Dungarvan and maybe that's a factor. And there's no doubt that I'd in no way have been able to do the session I did tonight if I wasn't doing some heavy-duty training. But I'm really going to have to have a think about what I'm looking to get out of my running, and what I'm willing to put into it, once Limerick is over.

My views on the high mileage of p&d are fairly well known at this stage.

I honesty don't feel that life should revolve around running, it's meant to be the other way around. I'm going to split the summer between the bike and running, without increasing my training hours, as I'm doing the Sean Kelly 160k again this August. I enjoy running and want to keep it that way!

It's not meat to be a chore.

In saying all that. There have been some huge improvements from this group so I guess that's the trade off

rasher_m

murphd77 wrote: »

I have nothing against P&D. I've read the book, but for me the step up in training time and distance is just too much at this stage of my running (and personal) life. Plus I would worry about getting injured doing that kind of mileage (only running regularly for about 22 months).

I'm doing HH Intermediate 2. On that plan, week 8 is 41 miles - so significantly more than HHN2, which I followed for DCM2013, and I would think more than good enough to run a good time, which of course depends on so many variables: training, running form, nutrition, hydration, weather, luck, health, weight, the course etc. etc. etc. Imagine the effect of P&D mileage on an overweight person with bad technique - the kind of guy whose feet you can hear slapping hard off the pavement, for example.

But each to his and hers - the important thing is to feel progress is being made. And to make it to the starting line in one piece!

I like your idea Murph. I really don't think I have the makeup for a P&D plan with my sleeping pattern and work. I think if I do a marathon this year I'll do something similar to yourself.

Laois_Man

docjewel wrote: »

Similar to New Runner,warm-up is usually just a few slower miles & cool down again includes a few miles at slower pace

Ha. I have to confess I'm not a 2012 DCM graduate. I'm a 2013 novice who is gatecrashing the 2012 graduate thread while I await attempt II of this years novice thread. So "a few miles" warm up and then again to warm down would be my entire run. I'm only up to 7.5 miles as my LSR and 5 miles in my other runs so far
But I get the idea. It's just difficult to judge when to inject the pace and when to ease up again.

docjewel wrote: »

I invested in a foam roller last week & while I haven't used it every night yet I can actually feel the difference after the LSR last weekend,especially in the calfs

That's exactly where I'm getting my niggly strains. The calves. I'll have to look into sourcing one of these magical foam roller wonder items!

Dilbert75

Gavlor wrote: »

My views on the high mileage of p&d are fairly well known at this stage.

I honesty don't feel that life should revolve around running, it's meant to be the other way around. I'm going to split the summer between the bike and running, without increasing my training hours, as I'm doing the Sean Kelly 160k again this August. I enjoy running and want to keep it that way!

It's not meat to be a chore.

In saying all that. There have been some huge improvements from this group so I guess that's the trade off

Do you post your training plan anywhere Gavlor? I'd be interested in seeing what it looks like. And after all you're a lot faster than me so something is working.

Gavlor

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Do you post your training plan anywhere Gavlor? I'd be interested in seeing what it looks like. And after all you're a lot faster than me so something is working.

Nah, I tend to kind of make it up as I go along on a weekly basis and just post each run in my log.

My main aim each week is a speed session, a tempo session and an LSR. (i'll only have a 20 & 22 mile lsr done for limerick) That way if I can only fit 3 runs a week in then it's not the end of the world though I try to keep it at 4 days minimum cos ye guys make me feel guilty or something for not running!!

Thst kind of training means that I avoid junk miles. I have my bike on a turbo trainer so I use that the odd time for recovery while watching tv with my son!

My race times over all distances have improved each time since I started last year so something is working.

Edit: I reached 250 ytd miles on Monday so it's not that I'm not working hard, i'm just not doing mental mileage.

pconn062

Just thought I would give my two cents here on the motivation thing. Just to say, I don't run marathons but I run an average of 50 or so miles a week and rarely do I not enjoy any of my runs. Everyone suffers from a lack of motivation from time to time but I've noticed here that some people are saying they aren't really enjoying any of their runs, which is a problem. I know marathon plans are tough and I actually think marathons are part of the problem. Most people who take up running these days in later life (ie not juniors) usually begin with a marathon and when they finish that, jump straight into another marathon right away as they are buzzing after the first. But the training for this is never likely to be as fun as it's usually a spring marathon and training in the cold weather is tough, and it doesn't have the same element of newness that it did the first time. So people become unmotivated and start of get sick of running.

So, it might be worth considering (for some people) to leave the marathons aside for a while and try different distances. Focus on a 5k and really train for it, maybe the change in training from 20 mile runs to short speed sessions might just be the ticket you need to re-ignite the love for running. And I don't mean do a 5k between marathons , really train for it, training for a shorter distance can be just as rewarding and challenging as training for a marathon.

At the end of the day you've got to love it and if it's a chore it's not fun, running for us is a hobby and we choose to do it so it has to be something we enjoy! So instead of cutting back completely (or even worse, doing a triathlon!) try something else, maybe a cross country race or a track race, the Graded meets will be starting soon. Running on a proper tartan track is so much fun and so different from slogging out lots of miles on your own for a marathon. Anyway that's my speech over, wishing you all the best with the P+D madness!

tomred1N

Dilbert75 wrote: »

I'm having a similar "crisis", for want of a better word. I'm using the P&D 55 mile 12 week programme and it's getting to the point where the fun is evaporating. I got out on the bike (courtesy of the clotheshorse to work scheme) on Monday for the first time in about 4 months and realised how much I'd missed it. But there's just not room in my week for a couple of hours on the bike as well as all the running.

So that gets me to thinking why I'm doing all this and why I'm putting so much effort into it. And the truth is that I'm really not sure. All along I'd intended to do HHI2 but then just fell into the P&D for no particular reason. And the step up from HHN2 is massive, as many more of you are finding out. And it's really taking the good out of it for me at the moment.

On the other hand I haven't raced since Dungarvan and maybe that's a factor. And there's no doubt that I'd in no way have been able to do the session I did tonight if I wasn't doing some heavy-duty training. But I'm really going to have to have a think about what I'm looking to get out of my running, and what I'm willing to put into it, once Limerick is over.

I was going doing HH inter 1 as well until I saw everyone on here jump into P&D. I was thinking they must know something I don't as it looked lunacy on paper. It might even have been that Meno fellow from Dublin who said P&D was easier than HHNovice:rolleyes:

however like Brian Cowen I just threw catuion to the wind and said f**k it . Now I'm up **** creek half through a plan, and like in apocalypse now there seems no way back only put the head down and keep swimming against the tide .....to hell with work, family , fags, beer , friends .....I,m going on up river till the boat sinks !!

coalshed

tomred1N wrote: »

I was going doing HH inter 1 as well until I saw everyone on here jump into P&D. I was thinking they must know something I don't as it looked lunacy on paper. It might even have been that Meno fellow from Dublin who said P&D was easier than HHNovice:rolleyes:

however like Brian Cowen I just threw catuion to the wind and said f**k it . Now I'm up **** creek half through a plan, and like in apocalypse now there seems no way back only put the head down and keep swimming against the tide .....to hell with work, family , fags, beer , friends .....I,m going on up river till the boat sinks !!

You sound a bit like me...I got about six weeks into the P&D plan before the motivational wheels started coming off

Keep at it, by the time you finish we'll have the P&D Recovery Support Group up and running, welcoming the huddled masses back to lower mileage weeks, plans for shorter races and family re-integration plans.

RunningKing

pconn062 wrote: »

Just thought I would give my two cents here on the motivation thing. Just to say, I don't run marathons but I run an average of 50 or so miles a week and rarely do I not enjoy any of my runs. Everyone suffers from a lack of motivation from time to time but I've noticed here that some people are saying they aren't really enjoying any of their runs, which is a problem. I know marathon plans are tough and I actually think marathons are part of the problem. Most people who take up running these days in later life (ie not juniors) usually begin with a marathon and when they finish that, jump straight into another marathon right away as they are buzzing after the first. But the training for this is never likely to be as fun as it's usually a spring marathon and training in the cold weather is tough, and it doesn't have the same element of newness that it did the first time. So people become unmotivated and start of get sick of running.

So, it might be worth considering (for some people) to leave the marathons aside for a while and try different distances. Focus on a 5k and really train for it, maybe the change in training from 20 mile runs to short speed sessions might just be the ticket you need to re-ignite the love for running. And I don't mean do a 5k between marathons , really train for it, training for a shorter distance can be just as rewarding and challenging as training for a marathon.

At the end of the day you've got to love it and if it's a chore it's not fun, running for us is a hobby and we choose to do it so it has to be something we enjoy! So instead of cutting back completely (or even worse, doing a triathlon!) try something else, maybe a cross country race or a track race, the Graded meets will be starting soon. Running on a proper tartan track is so much fun and so different from slogging out lots of miles on your own for a marathon. Anyway that's my speech over, wishing you all the best with the P+D madness!

Would agree whole heartly with this.

I lost the love of running after DCM Marathon '11 - sounds very similar to what is being posted around this week.

So after DCM '12 I resisted the urge to do a spring marathon and just do 5k/10k training.
Still gives me 30-40m per week but its different sort of training. My longest run to date (since Oct '12) is 11 miles I think. Theres some sessions and tempos, but its shorter and very enjoyable. Only 1 bad run in the last year as a result and really loving my training.

Maybe try to vary the locations of your runs - drive to somewhere scenic for a run.
Look for some running groups from here to run with - a good chat helps!

Either way - the danger is you get yourself into a rut that is difficult to get out of. So its good to spot it early and take action.

RunningKing

tomred1N wrote: »

It might even have been that Meno fellow from Dublin

red rag to a bull........:pac:

ncmc

It’s like an AA meeting around here today, we’re all spilling the beans about our P&D woes! I don’t know about everyone else, but I feel better knowing I’m not the only one feeling a bit stuck in a rut. I am hoping that it’s just ‘mid-plan blues’; the goal race feels a long way off, yet the buzz of completing the higher mileage weeks is wearing off already!

I think my plan to deal with it is A) not worry if I miss the odd run, I think I remember in the book they said if you managed to do 80-85% of the plan, you were doing well, so I am not going to put myself under major pressure trying to cram in every single run. I am going to make a big effort to do my LSR somewhere new and preferably flat and scenic. I was planning to come up to Cork City and do my 20 mile LSR around Blackrock/Harty’s Quay/Jacobs Island on Sunday as it is a lovely run and somewhere a bit different, so hopefully the weather will be ok and make it worth the bother.

Just a question about the P&D plan, what’s with the long recovery runs? I remember Meno and a few other experienced heads on here saying that a recovery run should be no more than 40-50 mins, yet P&D has recovery runs of 7 miles. Its things like this that I dislike about the plan, I don’t mind going out and doing the mileage, but it’s nice to have a couple of days a week where you only do 4-5 miles. 7 miles seems unnecessarily long.

LOL @ Coalshed and the P&D survivors thread…. I hereby offer to mentor that! :pac:

Gavlor

ncmc wrote: »

.

LOL @ Coalshed and the P&D survivors thread…. I hereby offer to mentor that! :pac:

Now I know how homer felt when his mates set up the 'No Homers club'

ncmc

Gavlor wrote: »

Now I know how homer felt when his mates set up the 'No Homers club'

It't the Homer's, we're allowed one Homer. You can pop in