DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

KillianByrne

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I know there's a smiley in there, but have a look at the P&D plan again- there's plenty of hard work left. One of the biggest differences IMO between the P&D and HH is the effect of the taper- HH runners are joggers, still drinking, running short and slow... taking it easy and eating pasta for 3 weeks doesn't really affect their race too much. However, the P&D is a big step up in intensity and commitment, and runners are wrecked at this stage with 3 weeks to go. The temptation is to see the taper as representing rest, with all the hard work for the race already done. If you take another look at whats left, the milage decreases, but the intensity doesn't. It's a common mistake to view this taper period as taking the foot off the gas. Still a bit of hard work to go

Jeez Kurt, you're full of good cheer for people in this thread aren't you.

blockic

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I know there's a smiley in there, but have a look at the P&D plan again- there's plenty of hard work left. One of the biggest differences IMO between the P&D and HH is the effect of the taper- HH runners are joggers, still drinking, running short and slow... taking it easy and eating pasta for 3 weeks doesn't really affect their race too much. However, the P&D is a big step up in intensity and commitment, and runners are wrecked at this stage with 3 weeks to go. The temptation is to see the taper as representing rest, with all the hard work for the race already done. If you take another look at whats left, the milage decreases, but the intensity doesn't. It's a common mistake to view this taper period as taking the foot off the gas. Still a bit of hard work to go

Awh and I was planning on sitting on the couch for the next three weeks!:pac:

I see what you mean.There are a few speed sessions left alright which I will have focus on, couple of tough ones in there. Less of a time commitment in the LSRs and midweek runs which is good. I'm actually adding in PMP miles into my taper also so it's probably slightly harder than the P&D taper.

It's the reduced mileage/time I was more refering to in regard to the taper. 40 mile weeks are fairly handy after you have done a good few 50 and 60 weeks.

Gavlor

KillianByrne wrote: »

Wanted 20mls at 9.51
Did 20.5m at 9.56

Tough stuff with the last sector from the marathon finish to home being pretty much all uphill contributing to a 10.26/10.51(!)/10.38 last three miles!

2 gels at 10 & 15 miles and 1litre of water drunk from a camelback.

Highest weeks mileage of my short running career of 43miles done. Tomorrows day of rest can't come soon enough!

Great pacing... It's arctic out there!

Kurt Godel

KillianByrne wrote: »

Jeez Kurt, you're full of good cheer for people in this thread aren't you.

Good job, high fives, have a bubble bath, champ; if you'd prefer.

I haven't noticed much discussion on this thread about the effects and reasons for tapering (I may well have missed it). Anyone who is putting in the sort of milage that P&D type plans call for, will be a lot more dedicated than when they did a HH program. It'd be a shame to f£ck that good work up now, by reading an implication that taper means rest.

Kurt Godel

blockic wrote: »

Awh and I was planning on sitting on the couch for the next three weeks!:pac:

I see what you mean.There are a few speed sessions left alright which I will have focus on, couple of tough ones in there. Less of a time commitment in the LSRs and midweek runs which is good. I'm actually adding in PMP miles into my taper also so it's probably slightly harder than the P&D taper.

It's the reduced mileage/time I was more refering to in regard to the taper. 40 mile weeks are fairly handy after you have done a good few 50 and 60 weeks.

I know exactly what you meant- I've shouted "Taper!" myself a few times with three weeks to go! You're spot on above.

Gavlor

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I know there's a smiley in there, but have a look at the P&D plan again- there's plenty of hard work left. One of the biggest differences IMO between the P&D and HH is the effect of the taper- HH runners are joggers, still drinking, running short and slow... taking it easy and eating pasta for 3 weeks doesn't really affect their race too much. However, the P&D is a big step up in intensity and commitment, and runners are wrecked at this stage with 3 weeks to go. The temptation is to see the taper as representing rest, with all the hard work for the race already done. If you take another look at whats left, the milage decreases, but the intensity doesn't. It's a common mistake to view this taper period as taking the foot off the gas. Still a bit of hard work to go

So because I'm not following p&d I'm jogging short, slow runs???

Nonsense

tomred1N

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I know there's a smiley in there, but have a look at the P&D plan again- there's plenty of hard work left. One of the biggest differences IMO between the P&D and HH is the effect of the taper- HH runners are joggers, still drinking, running short and slow... taking it easy and eating pasta for 3 weeks doesn't really affect their race too much. However, the P&D is a big step up in intensity and commitment, and runners are wrecked at this stage with 3 weeks to go. The temptation is to see the taper as representing rest, with all the hard work for the race already done. If you take another look at whats left, the milage decreases, but the intensity doesn't. It's a common mistake to view this taper period as taking the foot off the gas. Still a bit of hard work to go

Oh dear ....straight out of the Trapatoni school of motivational speaking!!! And a similarly timley delivery with everyones extremities frozen solid. Keep it up kid!! However no point wasting ur time with blockic he dont know how to slow down boy. run blockic run for all us pasta loving dunkin dounut shaped andy reids!! Grrrrrrr feel warmer already

ncmc

Kurt, the reason there has been no talk of taper in this thread is because Blockic is the first of our number to do a marathon this year. The majority of the rest of us aren't doing ours til May/June so I'm sure there'll be lots of taper talk closer to that time.

I don't think any of us are foolish enough to feck up 15 weeks of hard training by dossing during the last three weeks, regardless of what plan we're following.

Gavlor

Fair play though Kurt, you got some bites there.... Forum hero basks in glory after slagging off inexperienced, and maybe just a little enthusiastic, runners..... Chapeaux

Kurt Godel

Gavlor wrote: »

Fair play though Krusty, you got some bites there.... Forum hero basks in glory after slagging off inexperienced, and maybe just a little enthusiastic, runners..... Chapeaux

There's just so much wrong with that post...

I posted here what I considered helpful info.

menoscemo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

There's just so much wrong with that post...

I posted here what I considered helpful info.

In fairness, I think it would have been better placed in Blockic's log.

Gavlor

Kurt Godel wrote: »

There's just so much wrong with that post...

I posted here what I considered helpful info.

Just calling it as I, and obviously others see it

Kurt Godel

menoscemo wrote: »

In fairness, I think it would have been better placed in Blockic's log.

A couple of lads on this thread discussing tapering... there was nothing wrong with me posting it here. And nothing wrong with what I posted- year after year people doing their second marathon misread what a taper means- I'm not saying that's what the lads were doing (I saw the smiley), but there's nothing wrong with pointing it out, on a general thread like this. Been there, done that, myself, as have countless others.

Anyone care to point out whats wrong with the advice I gave? Besides putting different words on it, or treating it like a wind-up. If this thread is only for posters who have done DCM as their first marathon, then fair enough, but otherwise I'm as free to give advice here as the next poster (who is free to take it or leave it if they want...).

ncmc

I know it probably wasn't intentional Kurt, but your post did come across a little condescending, especially your reply to Killian. As I've said, Blockic is the first marathon of the year, so that's why there hasn't been much taper talk. Also, a lot of us have our own logs and there has been a lot of discussion about the merits and drawbacks of the high mileage P&D taper.

To suggest that those following HH are joggers, still drinking and eating pasta for three weeks is really quite insulting. Not everyone has the time to follow a high mileage plan and it's not fair to categorise them like that.

But I'm sure that's not the way it was meant, it can be hard to judge tone in written text. Any and all advice, especially from those more experienced is much appreciated.

Gavlor

Kurt Godel wrote: »

There's just so much wrong with that post...

I posted here what I considered helpful info.

I do apologise for calling you Krusty... Or shud I be apologising to the clown?!

menoscemo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

A couple of lads on this thread discussing tapering... there was nothing wrong with me posting it here. And nothing wrong with what I posted- year after year people doing their second marathon misread what a taper means- I'm not saying that's what the lads were doing (I saw the smiley), but there's nothing wrong with pointing it out, on a general thread like this. Been there, done that, myself, as have countless others.

Totally agree about the taper part. I made the same mistake myself before, though that was for my first Marathon.

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Anyone care to point out whats wrong with the advice I gave? Besides putting different words on it, or treating it like a wind-up. If this thread is only for posters who have done DCM as their first marathon, then fair enough, but otherwise I'm as free to give advice here as the next poster (who is free to take it or leave it if they want...).

This thread is for last years DCM novice group (see OP). Considering a lot of them are doing HH Intermediate progammes for their second marathon, I can imagine a few might be offended by the following:

HH runners are joggers, still drinking, running short and slow... taking it easy and eating pasta for 3 weeks doesn't really affect their race too much.

menoscemo

Gavlor wrote: »

So because I'm not following p&d I'm jogging short, slow runs???

Nonsense

AFAIK (apart from TRR) you are the only person who has posted on this thread who has actually ran a sub 3:10 marathon :P

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

AFAIK (apart from TRR) you are the only person who has posted on this thread who has actually ran a sub 3:10 marathon :P

And as such he hurt my feelings

Kurts point was correct but the delivery was wrong.

I think I speak for everyone on this thread in saying that the input from the "pro's" are an integral part of thread but the smart ass comments are uncalled for. Marathon times vary from <3.10 to > 5 hours, I think that should be taken into consideration by the speedsters.

Kurt Godel

menoscemo wrote: »

Totally agree about the taper part. I made the same mistake myself before, though that was for my first Marathon.



This thread is for last years DCM novice group (see OP). Considering a lot of them are doing HH Intermediate progammes for their second marathon, I can imagine a few might be offended by the following:

HH runners are joggers, still drinking, running short and slow... taking it easy and eating pasta for 3 weeks doesn't really affect their race too much.

So there was nothing wrong with my advice on the taper? Fine, thats the only reason I posted here.

Didn't realise it was exclusively for last years DCM novice group, I'll leave it so.

I stand by what I wrote about HH joggers. Most runners doing their second marathon (having done their first on a HH) using a higher milage plan like a P&D one, knows they need to drink less, run faster and longer, and not taper so much, to continue upwards any hierarchy of achievement.

menoscemo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I stand by what I wrote about HH joggers. Most runners doing their second marathon (having done their first on a HH) using a higher milage plan like a P&D one, knows they need to drink less, run faster and longer, and not taper so much, to continue upwards any hierarchy of achievement.

And that's exactly what everyone on here is doing, either by following HH inter, P&D programmes or their own makey uppy programmes. Lots aren't even doing a marathon, rather concentrating on getting faster over shorter distances.

If you go back through this thread you will see that everyone has come on in leaps and bounds. I was posting a 16 week winter programme and most were up to 30-40 miles/week with regular sessions before even starting Marathon training.

Gavlor

Kurt Godel wrote: »

So there was nothing wrong with my advice on the taper? Fine, thats the only reason I posted here.

Didn't realise it was exclusively for last years DCM novice group, I'll leave it so.

I stand by what I wrote about HH joggers. Most runners doing their second marathon (having done their first on a HH) using a higher milage plan like a P&D one, knows they need to drink less, run faster and longer, and not taper so much, to continue upwards any hierarchy of achievement.

Don't go throwing the rattle out!

This thread is made up of novices that depend on advice from the likes of yourself, meno, Trr, raycun etc. just try not to be so dismissive of slower runners than you

KillianByrne

I'll happily take advice from anyone, experience is a personal thing and if you've done one race or fifty, every poster has a valid point that could be useful to any one of us.

The bulk of us, with only one marathon under our belt, are still novices and ultimately what we need alongside advice is encouragement in spades.

I was delighted to see that a couple of pages back someone rememberd my parkrun splits and took encouragement from the fact that I ran a fast (for me) last mile and then found some htfu and applied it to his run.

I don't think we need the sheriff riding into town guns blazing and with his first contribution to the thread telling the bulk of us that we're slackers because we've chosen our preferred training plans and also we're not mentally strong because we're looking forward to doing 30miles next week instead of 50.

rasher_m

KillianByrne wrote: »

I'll happily take advice from anyone, experience is a personal thing and if you've done one race or fifty, every poster has a valid point that could be useful to any one of us.

The bulk of us, with only one marathon under our belt, are still novices and ultimately what we need alongside advice is encouragement in spades.

I was delighted to see that a couple of pages back someone rememberd my parkrun splits and took encouragement from the fact that I ran a fast (for me) last mile and then found some htfu and applied it to his run.

I don't think we need the sherif riding into town guns blazing and with his first contribution to the thread telling the bulk of us that we're slackers because we've chosen our preferred training plans and also we're not mentally strong because we're looking forward to doing 30miles next week instead of 50.

As for your man Kurt, hes well aware hes winding people up so I wouldn't pay to much heed to his remarks or whatever. He does it on other logs as well.
Hey Killian, just read your piece in the Irish Runner...that will encourage a lot of people who have taken up running or are thinking about it and finding the going tough. Nice article. You should be hitting the 4hrs before DCM judging by your training.

KillianByrne

rasher_m wrote: »

As for your man Kurt, hes well aware hes winding people up so I wouldn't pay to much heed to his remarks or whatever. He does it on other logs as well.
Hey Killian, just read your piece in the Irish Runner...that will encourage a lot of people who have taken up running or are thinking about it and finding the going tough. Nice article. You should be hitting the 4hrs before DCM judging by your training.

Thanks, one of the things the last year has taught me is that hard work pays off in spades, it was nice to have such a positive response to my efforts.

TRR

I agree with kurt's sentiments regards the taper but maybe not his delivery, I like to think I have a bit more tact :pac: If you knew the chap you'd realise it's a helpful rather than dismissive comment. Believe me I know lots of novices who really take the foot off the gas and similar things have been posted on this forum in the past so I can see why kurt bit.

Anyway, blockic cleared up confusion as he sees 3 week taper as a decrease in mileage volume not intensity which is 100% what it should be. Next week should have quality but still a bit of volume, following week another step back in volume but still some quality and final week should be minimum volume and all quality (but not a whole lot) to get the desired race day pace into the legs. Well that's my opinion.

Gavlor

TRR wrote: »

I agree with kurt's sentiments regards the taper but maybe not his delivery, I like to think I have a bit more tact :pac: If you knew the chap you'd realise it's a helpful rather than dismissive comment. Believe me I know lots of novices who really take the foot off the gas and similar things have been posted on this forum in the past so I can see why kurt bit.

Anyway, blockic cleared up confusion as he sees 3 week taper as a decrease in mileage volume not intensity which is 100% what it should be. Next week should have quality but still a bit of volume, following week another step back in volume but still some quality and final week should be minimum volume and all quality (but not a whole lot) to get the desired race day pace into the legs. Well that's my opinion.

There'll be no taper for anyone at this rate, everyone will be Knackered at the start line!!

Tact??!! Pfffttt

TRR

Gavlor wrote: »

There'll be no taper for anyone at this rate, everyone will be Knackered at the start line!!

Tact??!! Pfffttt

All joking aside, the taper is so easy to get wrong. Overdo it on the easy side and you feel like a coach potato. However overdoing it and not easing down can be worse. Last year on the start line in Dublin I talked to 2 lads I expected to be in or around me, however after 30 seconds I knew by them they had no fight left in them, they killed themeselves in the lead up. Best to be a little undercooked than overcooked just don't hit Domino's too soon

Steroo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

have a bubble bath,

I f&€kin love bubble bath !

KillianByrne

StephenRooney wrote: »

I f&€kin love bubble bath !

But only if you're on P&D, any other plan and you're probably drinking it.

RunningKing

Jaysus, I always miss the good stuff.

Reading back on it is interesting, being a total neutral (I think), I do think Kurt was trying to give advice, then it was like in a GAA match where 2 players are knocking into each other and a 3rd player comes in and gives a big shoulder, then a 4thlayer throws a side dig to the kidneys, then there's a big melee in the middle of the pitch, with the crowd looking on, cheering for both sides, kinda hoping that it stops, but secertly wishing for it to continue...................but in the end, the Dubs always win.

Or something like that......