DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

blockic

Runchick wrote: »

I didn't push myself in to the really unbearable stuff so think I need to work on this also

Welcome to the dark side! :pac:

ncmc

That's some improvement Runchick, congrats on a great PB. I am exactly the same, start off too fast and slow down, that's the great thing about pacers, they keep you right from start to finish. I am also a bit of a sissy! I am full of htfu when it comes to going running in bad weather or doing high mileage, but when it comes to races I totally wuss when the going gets tough! Don't know how one goes about fixing that

career_move

Well done Runchick. It's bloody hard to pace the 5k and 10k alright....what you needed was your own 'Dave'

Runchick

Thanks ncmc I suppose its something that comes from experience, I'm guessing the more racing you do, the less dramatic the PBs become and you need to work harder to get them? But if you figure it out please let me know

"Dave"?

career_move

Runchick wrote: »

Thanks ncmc I suppose its something that comes from experience, I'm guessing the more racing you do, the less dramatic the PBs become and you need to work harder to get them? But if you figure it out please let me know

"Dave"?

pacer

Runchick

Ah ha, yes I def need my own Dave :P

Murph_D

Well done ncmc and Runchick, two excellent PBs.

KillianByrne

murphd77 wrote: »

Well done ncmc and Runchick, two excellent PBs.

I certainly second that.

I'm looking forward to starting P&D with the serious improvements youve seen Runchick. I know its the effort youve put in that made the difference but you've made the plan work very well.

That, and I'm looking forward to following a training plan in the daylight and hopefully decent weather.

Sara2002

Runchick that's a fab PB well done! I can never pace for a 10k either-Am hoping that will come with time.
I did a 10 miler today. My first long run since Paris marathon 2 weeks ago- thought I'd fnd it tough but it was okay. Averaged at 9:55 per mile, happy with that. :-)

New runner

Well done ncmc n Runchick, great running n congrats on both of your impressive PBs !

Runchick

KillianByrne wrote: »

I certainly second that.

I'm looking forward to starting P&D with the serious improvements youve seen Runchick. I know its the effort youve put in that made the difference but you've made the plan work very well.

That, and I'm looking forward to following a training plan in the daylight and hopefully decent weather.

Thanks Killian but I think I'll reserve judgment on any improvement until after Limerick! The vision of blowing up at mile 23 or so is haunting me, something only I can beat by conservative pacing...

Steroo

Wexford Half yesterday 1:38:23... Race report here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84267368#post84267368

ncmc

I have been doing a bit of post race introspection and examining what may have went wrong and stopped me hitting my goal. There are a few things I think I could have improved upon, namely nutrition in the days prior to and the morning of the race. There were some external factors like a more difficult course than prepared for and I struggled with the warmer temperatures. But I think the main issue is my mental preparation and determination during the race. Even my husband said to me this morning that he had never seen me so negative about a race (I believe I may have said that if it wasn’t for Boards I would have gone home before the race even started!) I think this was the same in Ballycotton (another disappointing result) I am beginning to realise that I am beaten in these races before I even set foot on the course. Then when the going invariably gets tough, I don’t have the mental strength to combat it.

The funny thing is, I would consider myself a positive person in real life, but I have just got into a negative frame of mind in races and it’s becoming a self fulfilling prophecy – negative thoughts = bad result = more negative thoughts for the next race etc etc. I also find I have quite negative thoughts about a LT or PMP session in training and once again, the more negative thoughts, the more I find them difficult, then the more I dread the next one.

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

I’m sure I’m not the only one who suffers from this and with goal races coming up, hopefully a few people will benefit from peoples hints and tips. If I don’t get in the right frame of mind before the marathon then I think all the training in the world won’t get me the result I want. So I need your help Boards!

blockic

ncmc wrote: »

I have been doing a bit of post race introspection and examining what may have went wrong and stopped me hitting my goal. There are a few things I think I could have improved upon, namely nutrition in the days prior to and the morning of the race. There were some external factors like a more difficult course than prepared for and I struggled with the warmer temperatures. But I think the main issue is my mental preparation and determination during the race. Even my husband said to me this morning that he had never seen me so negative about a race (I believe I may have said that if it wasn’t for Boards I would have gone home before the race even started!) I think this was the same in Ballycotton (another disappointing result) I am beginning to realise that I am beaten in these races before I even set foot on the course. Then when the going invariably gets tough, I don’t have the mental strength to combat it.

The funny thing is, I would consider myself a positive person in real life, but I have just got into a negative frame of mind in races and it’s becoming a self fulfilling prophecy – negative thoughts = bad result = more negative thoughts for the next race etc etc. I also find I have quite negative thoughts about a LT or PMP session in training and once again, the more negative thoughts, the more I find them difficult, then the more I dread the next one.

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

I’m sure I’m not the only one who suffers from this and with goal races coming up, hopefully a few people will benefit from peoples hints and tips. If I don’t get in the right frame of mind before the marathon then I think all the training in the world won’t get me the result I want. So I need your help Boards!

That was a big one! I suppose I'm probably the opposite, I'm a fairly person negative in real life but once I'm in a race I have a determined mindset.

I've mentioned this already in my race report but I always mentally prep for a race in the days leading up to it. I focus on the facts, the training I have done and my ability. I focus on someone who is of similar ability as me, see what there doing and think well if they can do it why can't I.

I get the head right and go through most scenarios that could potentially happen in the race and how I would deal with them while keeping a positive mental attitude(PMA robbed of another boards user here...sorry! )

Then what ever happens in the race, I'm ready for it and have the mentality to overcome it because of my preparation.

coalshed

ncmc wrote: »

I have been doing a bit of post race introspection and examining what may have went wrong and stopped me hitting my goal. There are a few things I think I could have improved upon, namely nutrition in the days prior to and the morning of the race. There were some external factors like a more difficult course than prepared for and I struggled with the warmer temperatures. But I think the main issue is my mental preparation and determination during the race. Even my husband said to me this morning that he had never seen me so negative about a race (I believe I may have said that if it wasn’t for Boards I would have gone home before the race even started!) I think this was the same in Ballycotton (another disappointing result) I am beginning to realise that I am beaten in these races before I even set foot on the course. Then when the going invariably gets tough, I don’t have the mental strength to combat it.

The funny thing is, I would consider myself a positive person in real life, but I have just got into a negative frame of mind in races and it’s becoming a self fulfilling prophecy – negative thoughts = bad result = more negative thoughts for the next race etc etc. I also find I have quite negative thoughts about a LT or PMP session in training and once again, the more negative thoughts, the more I find them difficult, then the more I dread the next one.

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

I’m sure I’m not the only one who suffers from this and with goal races coming up, hopefully a few people will benefit from peoples hints and tips. If I don’t get in the right frame of mind before the marathon then I think all the training in the world won’t get me the result I want. So I need your help Boards!

I don't have any solutions. I can only agree that negative thoughts, during a race at least, can certainly result in a sub-optimal performance.

I suppose one step we can take is to be on the look out for negative thoughts. Be ready for them and try to shut them down before the thoughts lead to an action such as slowing down or surrendering to the situation.

That might make the difference between thinking 'my target time will not be met today, this race is effectively over for me' and 'my target time may have slipped by me today, but I'm going to work my ass off to stay as close to it as I can.'

Unfortunately that can be easier said than done and I suspect it's only after the fact sometimes that we realise we have let negativity do the driving.

So, what I'll try and do in future is listen out for in-race negativity and try and stop it in its tracks.

In terms of dreading training runs, would you conside or can you afford to take a guilt free day or two off? Sometimes a little break can help you mentally re-charge and get prepared to start again with renewed enthusiasm.

KillianByrne

ncmc wrote: »

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

I’m sure I’m not the only one who suffers from this and with goal races coming up, hopefully a few people will benefit from peoples hints and tips. If I don’t get in the right frame of mind before the marathon then I think all the training in the world won’t get me the result I want. So I need your help Boards!

I had the opportunity to spend some time with a sports psychologist, socially but we had a good chat. Given my history, he determined (suggested) that I was feeling down because I was incredibly goal driven and my runnning was all about results outside of what he called the 'main road'. basically, I started running to lose weight, then it was about getting a time, then it was about beating that time. Every time I trained or raced it was goal driven and I was pressurising myself to continually beat the time or distance before.

I keep a folder of my numbers and times achieved and he told me to look at it not as a record of targets and goals but as a record of what I've achieved personally, each number and medal is a record that I am a decent runner and deserve a place on any startline I line up on.

Basically I have to learn to run because I enjoy it and any other benefits are second to that. it doesnt mean that they are not important, but run to have fun, think, get out in the fresh air relax, whatever. The time & distance goal will come because you are good at running, rather than running to just get a new PB.

Most of the time now I cover my watch only glancing at it occasionally & it helps!

Best of luck!

docjewel

ncmc wrote: »

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

One thing about marathon training is that it really is a long slog & time absorbing.
If you stick to one of the plans pretty rigidly it doesn't leave much time for a bit of fun,it's all about targets,times,foam rolling,etc.

Sometimes just a little break can be of benefit or just doing a couple of smaller races,say 4/5/mile /10k,races that you can recover from pretty quickly,have a bad day today & tackle again in a few days time where as a 10mile/half marathon/marathon it's gonna take a lot longer to recover & for most of us we ain't going to tackle another one for a few weeks at least & like in your case N can actually knock your confidence.

I know in my case I hope to do at least 2 more smaller races(one a 5mile & a 10k) to try & build up the confidence before Cork but I'm gonna be at the disadvantage that I won't have a recent half marathon/10mile.I'm not gonna be looking for PB's in these races but just to put in a decent shift & experience the buzz around these races to hopefully get up the courage to tackle a 3:30maraton

Gavlor

ncmc wrote: »

The funny thing is, I would consider myself a positive person in real life.

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

!

The first thing is to remember that you do run races in real life!! I found that bit funny

There are an abundance of books, websites and techniques that you can use. What works differs for everyone.

Google "positive mantras" and "belief mantras" it'll give you a good start and you'll find references to books/sites that suit your mindset. Everybody's source of drive is different.

I'd also read up on the likes of Tom Creane, what that man went thru in the Antarctic make your marathon seem like a stroll in the park.

The key to being comfortable and overcoming your demons is to break your run down and compare each tranche to your short, easy training runs.

Steroo

Yea that's a hard one to answer ncmc.
My initial reaction is to highlight that we are in control of our thoughts, or we can be. But you know that.
Negative thoughts start with a doubt/fear and snowball unless you shut them down or counter them with positive thoughts.
Gavlor told blockic to read back on his log before he went to Rotterdam, I though that was a good way to reinstate reason for confidence.
We all get these thoughts and we are putting ourselves under a lot of pressure.
As suggested a break is good, no boards or running thoughts for a few days did me the world of good in Malta recently. I'm sure even 24 hours would be refreshing.
I'd say focus on this 10k and target a time that will give u confidence, and just do your best to believe it will happen. Plan the race and let nothing stop you.
But remember that you are still improving and that is in itself success. Only ever compare yourself to your former self.
Hope this helps

Runchick

Great post ncmc and some great responses too. I eluded yesterday that I definitely suffer from this a bit, and struggle to put myself into the really uncomfortable zone when racing. Its easy to sit here now and say I will in future races but think I will have to try to HTFU, get the positive mantra chants going and suffer a bit more in future :eek:

I agree to an extent with Killian, about running being about fun, etc. and not about times/PBS etc. but I am finding that I have come full circle on this. At first I was happy plodding through training and wasn't at all interested in racing...now however its all about times/ goals...that's what drives me. Maybe post marathon I will see things differently again.

And if all else fails during a race, beat the demons by distraction. I counted the white lines on the road while racing yesterday, guessing how many there were until the next turn or set of traffic lights..kept the mind occupied through the tough parts

statss

Hey ncmc,

I'm a firm believer in visualisation.

As you know from my own log, before a recent race I visualised over and over again the section with the biggest hill from m21-23. I pictured myself running strongly at this point and climbing the hill while over taking people....during the race I actually got excited when I saw the hill coming and the experience ended up being very similar to what I visualised....it felt like I had already done it countless times.

If I were in your shoes now, I would be visualising crossing the line with 3.29.XX on the clock. I would visualise the post race feeling of happiness. Scope out any of the harder spots of the course and visualise floating through them. Imagine up whatever scenes in your head that will motivate you, imprint them in your brain, and recall them whenever you reach a tough point in training.

This is not pie in the sky stuff, you have a lot of the ground work done for 3.30, keep going, keep believing, and your subconscious will make it happen on the day.

I've used techniques like this to get me through job interviews, presentations, my wedding speech and now running. Everyone is different but it works for me. Cut out negative thoughts immediately and replace them with positive ones...you are what you think

A quote emailed to me recently:

"'Our greatest glory consists not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."

I'm not suggesting you've failed at all but it's a nice motivator!

guinang

Enjoyed reading that ncmc. Interesting to hear how you feel negative thoughts are stopping you. While I agree that it's hurdle, I'm not sure it's the stumbling block you believe it to be though. In my opinion, the mental attitude has a lot with getting you over the line, but consistent hard graft in a run can't come from just mental preparation imo.

I went out yesterday with the feeling that my head was full of cold and that I would blow up around the middle of the race. I remember thinking to myself at mile 3 that the legs were heavy and it was likely down to my cold. As you know, I went on to pb the race so even though my head was full of negative thoughts prior to and during the race, I still achieved in the race.

Here's where I differed significantly though. I am not in marathon training and I had some personal issues during the week. As a result, I didn't run between Wednesday and Saturday inclusive. Because I was feeling quite full of cold, I rested more than normal over the weekend, in the vain hope that the cold would shift by Sunday. And I ate well on Sunday morning, took good nutrition on board and was well hydrated. From reading your log, I gather you didn't have the same prep in leading up to the HM. I'd say these were all far bigger factors than some doubts. And if you were conscious of these elements of course they would play a role psychologically. But regardless of their psychological impact, their physical impact would be far greater.

ncmc

Some great replies here, thanks so much, and hopefully others will find them useful too. I think I am definitely going to start focusing more on the positives and also pre-empt any possible negative thoughts and try and solve them in my head before the race. I like the idea of disassociation and visualisation too, I am definitely going to spend 5/10 mins per day relaxing and imagine myself achieving my goal. I used to do this while out training for DCM and in my day dream I always finished in 3:57/3:58 and totally believed that the day dream would come true… did it in 3:57:30 on the day, so there really could be something in it!

ncmc

guinang wrote: »

Enjoyed reading that ncmc. Interesting to hear how you feel negative thoughts are stopping you. While I agree that it's hurdle, I'm not sure it's the stumbling block you believe it to be though. In my opinion, the mental attitude has a lot with getting you over the line, but consistent hard graft in a run can't come from just mental preparation imo.

I went out yesterday with the feeling that my head was full of cold and that I would blow up around the middle of the race. I remember thinking to myself at mile 3 that the legs were heavy and it was likely down to my cold. As you know, I went on to pb the race so even though my head was full of negative thoughts prior to and during the race, I still achieved in the race.

Here's where I differed significantly though. I am not in marathon training and I had some personal issues during the week. As a result, I didn't run between Wednesday and Saturday inclusive. Because I was feeling quite full of cold, I rested more than normal over the weekend, in the vain hope that the cold would shift by Sunday. And I ate well on Sunday morning, took good nutrition on board and was well hydrated. From reading your log, I gather you didn't have the same prep in leading up to the HM. I'd say these were all far bigger factors than some doubts. And if you were conscious of these elements of course they would play a role psychologically. But regardless of their psychological impact, their physical impact would be far greater.

That's an interesting point actually, a few people are pointing out on my log that I did a double run on Thursday, 20 miles in total and while I don't feel it took much out of me and my legs felt fresh on Sunday, maybe it was more of an issue than I thought.

I definitely am feeling the higher mileage overall when it comes to race day. Whereas prior to DCM I would have taken 3-4 days off before a race, I haven't been doing that with P&D, so maybe it is having a negative effect. I do feel P&D is taking the fun out of running for me a bit, so am going to try and get the love back in the next few weeks!

Gavlor

ncmc wrote: »

That's an interesting point actually, a few people are pointing out on my log that I did a double run on Thursday, 20 miles in total and while I don't feel it took much out of me and my legs felt fresh on Sunday, maybe it was more of an issue than I thought.

I definitely am feeling the higher mileage overall when it comes to race day. Whereas prior to DCM I would have taken 3-4 days off before a race, I haven't been doing that with P&D, so maybe it is having a negative effect. I do feel P&D is taking the fun out of running for me a bit, so am going to try and get the love back in the next few weeks!

I don't just moan about high mileage for the craic ya'know!!!

ncmc

Gavlor wrote: »

I don't just moan about high mileage for the craic ya'know!!!

Yes you do, you know it gets a rise out of the P&D fans

I'm leaning more towards your stance as the training plan commences, you can be my personal coach for the next one

blockic

Gavlor wrote: »

I don't just moan about high mileage for the craic ya'know!!!

Ignore him, he is only trying to convert people to his gavlorscientology.

Don't do it people!! :P

RunningKing

ncmc wrote: »

I have been doing a bit of post race introspection and examining what may have went wrong and stopped me hitting my goal. There are a few things I think I could have improved upon, namely nutrition in the days prior to and the morning of the race. There were some external factors like a more difficult course than prepared for and I struggled with the warmer temperatures. But I think the main issue is my mental preparation and determination during the race. Even my husband said to me this morning that he had never seen me so negative about a race (I believe I may have said that if it wasn’t for Boards I would have gone home before the race even started!) I think this was the same in Ballycotton (another disappointing result) I am beginning to realise that I am beaten in these races before I even set foot on the course. Then when the going invariably gets tough, I don’t have the mental strength to combat it.

The funny thing is, I would consider myself a positive person in real life, but I have just got into a negative frame of mind in races and it’s becoming a self fulfilling prophecy – negative thoughts = bad result = more negative thoughts for the next race etc etc. I also find I have quite negative thoughts about a LT or PMP session in training and once again, the more negative thoughts, the more I find them difficult, then the more I dread the next one.

So any tips on changing my mindset? Any hints on dealing with negative thoughts? What devices do you guys use to dig deep when the going gets tough? Any books/websites/podcasts/techniques people can recommend?

I’m sure I’m not the only one who suffers from this and with goal races coming up, hopefully a few people will benefit from peoples hints and tips. If I don’t get in the right frame of mind before the marathon then I think all the training in the world won’t get me the result I want. So I need your help Boards!

Theres a couple of things that come to mind when reading your introspection.

1stly - well done for being introspective in the 1st place. Some people aren't like that and move from one race to the next where the same things happen again.

Regarding the race prep - do a list for the week of a race and stick it somewhere that you can see it every day. Follow it in terms of food, gear, drinks etc.
If you get this right, then the demons have less things to demonise you about as you know that these things are covered.

If they aren't covered and the demons start - then you start to believe them.


Every race that you 'race' will have demons - its tough both physically and mentally. There's been a lot of races where I've wanted to pretend to be injured, feign sickness etc, just to make it easier.

But the more I race and dont stop, the more I know I can overcome the demons and it becomes a bit self fulfilling. Its a confidence and experience thing.
(Note: Dont read my log from this week where I stopped - but that wasn't to do with demons )

One thing I do now as I'm running with the demons is I mentally write my Boards Race Report in my head and picture myself finishing.
If I'm feeling like I'm going to stop or really slow down, I change the report in my head to say how I conquered the demons.
All this is happening while you are running and can go on for a few mins.......before you know it you're nearly finished.

(btw I also picture myself pushing Blockic & Gavlors noses in cow manure, but thats a different thing altogether..... :pac: )

guinang

ncmc wrote: »

That's an interesting point actually, a few people are pointing out on my log that I did a double run on Thursday, 20 miles in total and while I don't feel it took much out of me and my legs felt fresh on Sunday, maybe it was more of an issue than I thought.

I definitely am feeling the higher mileage overall when it comes to race day. Whereas prior to DCM I would have taken 3-4 days off before a race, I haven't been doing that with P&D, so maybe it is having a negative effect. I do feel P&D is taking the fun out of running for me a bit, so am going to try and get the love back in the next few weeks!

On the plus side of all of this, things certainly seem to point to continuing on with your goals of sub 3.30 as others correctly indicated on your log(not me, the fool that just evaluated your times).

Lots and lots of words of wisdom from your fellow boardsies but you already know about htfu and there isn't much more to add regarding psychological hurdles than that. So I say move on from here, chalk it up and look forward to your marathon. You'll be in great shape when that rolls around. If P&D wanted you in shape 6 weeks out from a marathon then you'd have reason to worry.

Gavlor

RunningKing wrote: »

(btw I also picture myself pushing Blockic & Gavlors noses in cow manure, but thats a different thing altogether..... :pac: )

Good job you can picture that in your minds eye because we all know that you'd never be able to catch us in the real world