DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

Dilbert75

...except when they finally got blood out of my finger it contained a normal level of sugar, so it wasn't hypoglycaemia...

KillianByrne

Aimman wrote: »

Spotted a photo of you from the race. I think it's around the 20M mark. Only problem with the picture is it was photo-bombed by one of the better looking pacers (and I'm there too on the left.)

We're you a 4.30 pacer? I was wondering where you guys passed me, I was waiting for your balloons to catch up and hopefully stick to you for some motivation. All the way to the finish I thought I was ahead of 4.30 which actually kept me going. If I knew that marker had passed me out I would have certainly dropped out, But as I always felt I was going to better my DCM12 time I kept going!

Thanks for the photo, Limerick has produced some decent ones after more than a year of completely rubbish shots of me running.

Pacing Mule

I'm caught in 2 minds about a couple of races.

I'm back out running now - gradually building up with a mixture of cycling and running. I'm running 30-40 min at 7 min/k pace (purposely slowed down as per instructed but wouldn't be capable at this point of sustaining much a much higher pace for that long) My goal is to break 1 hour for a 10k which would be a PB as even last year I'd have been at the slower end of the scale.

Goal race as per Meno's excellent suggestion is the Lakes 10k is on Sep 7th. I had planned on doing a 10k later in the year but there doesn't seem to be anything suitable after September.

I've had my eye on the DLR 10k which is on August 5th. I done this last year in 1 hour 3 min if memory serves me but fitness wise now I am behind where I was this time last year. Whilst I have every confidence of better improvements in the next few months than last year (due to following a proper plan laid out by ecoli with a lot more excercise than last year and with structured diet and weight loss added in to the mix) I'm not sure if I would be ready to have a proper go at a PB in August as intensive training is only due to start just before then - September is more realistic.

My dliemna is this - The lakes 10k is the main focus for the year at this stage but I'm wondering would there be a benefit doing the DLR 10k only 4 weeks behind.
Pros: race practice, get a feel for how the fitness levels are in race conditions.
Cons: Would be a bit disheartening to go through the motions, not get a PB when the PB is already slow, might be racing too close together (for someone of my fitness level) and could adversely effect the crack at the lakes 10k.

I've a bit of time to decide of course but would save a few bob with the early entry if I took the plunge for DLR in the next couple of weeks. :P Any thoughts on this ?

career_move

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

I'm caught in 2 minds about a couple of races.
I've a bit of time to decide of course but would save a few bob with the early entry if I took the plunge for DLR in the next couple of weeks. :P Any thoughts on this ?

Go for it...something a bit closer to aim for and it'll break up the training

davemcmahon

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

My dliemna is this - The lakes 10k is the main focus for the year at this stage but I'm wondering would there be a benefit doing the DLR 10k only 4 weeks behind.
Pros: race practice, get a feel for how the fitness levels are in race conditions.
Cons: Would be a bit disheartening to go through the motions, not get a PB when the PB is already slow, might be racing too close together (for someone of my fitness level) and could adversely effect the crack at the lakes 10k.

I've a bit of time to decide of course but would save a few bob with the early entry if I took the plunge for DLR in the next couple of weeks. :P Any thoughts on this ?

I think there'd be no harm in doing it. Plenty of time to recover and its a race you want to do weither as a goal of just for fun. I'd also recommend you do some of the parkruns later in the year as a really good chance to gauge fitness and should help give you an idea of what times to aim for in the 10k.

Aimman

KillianByrne wrote: »

I was waiting for your balloons to catch up and hopefully stick to you for some motivation.

If I knew that marker had passed me out I would have certainly dropped out, But as I always felt I was going to better my DCM12 time I kept going!

I had a little 4:30 sign on my back.
We lost the balloons as sacrifices to the Lamppost and Wind Gods. It was probably just as well you didn't spot us then if you were thinking of dropping out if you knew you passed us by. I think you were running with us for a while though.

Well done on the race in the warm and windy conditions.

blockic

davemcmahon wrote: »

I think there'd be no harm in doing it. Plenty of time to recover and its a race you want to do weither as a goal of just for fun. I'd also recommend you do some of the parkruns later in the year as a really good chance to gauge fitness and should help give you an idea of what times to aim for in the 10k.

+1 to everything that dave says here. Run both 10kms but remember it's the September one that is your goal race.

Run the DLR 10km all out, if you do better than expected then you can revise your time down for the Lakes 10km, the main priority. If you don't do as good as you thought you would do, then you have 4 weeks to get the training sorted to get closer to your goal.

It's a stepping stone and a good measure of where you are at but its not the end game.

I totally agree in suggesting you do some park runs later in a few weeks, even if you just do them as a training run, it would be nice to get the feel of race run atmosphere back.

DOCO12

For those of you whose goal races are 10k or less, what length LSRs are you doing? Or what should we aim to be doing? Confused over this one! Thanks

davemcmahon

DOCO12 wrote: »

For those of you whose goal races are 10k or less, what length LSRs are you doing? Or what should we aim to be doing? Confused over this one! Thanks

All my training so far this year has been 10k specific and my LSR's have ranged from 10 -14 miles. I plan to keep this up for the next few months with the LSR's pushing up to 16 miles.

blockic

DOCO12 wrote: »

For those of you whose goal races are 10k or less, what length LSRs are you doing? Or what should we aim to be doing? Confused over this one! Thanks

I've an 8 week 10km plan coming up and my LSRs will be in the 12-16 mile range. Maybe in a 12-14-16-12-14-16 sequence.

I want to primarily work on speed but I want to keep the endurance ticking over for then the Autumn Marathon plan starts.

RunningKing

blockic wrote: »

I've an 8 week 10km plan coming up and my LSRs will be in the 12-16 mile range. Maybe in a 12-14-16-12-14-16 sequence.

I want to primarily work on speed but I want to keep the endurance ticking over for then the Autumn Marathon plan starts.

Did you finanise your sessions for the plan?
Heres how my decision process went in developing my plan for my current HM plan.

2 sessions per week or 1?
Tempo/steady state runs?
Race pace during LSR's?
# of V02 Max vrs LT sessions?
Progression seen throughout the plan?
Appropriate tune up races?
Recovery week built in?
Recovery runs at correct time?

Running is easy :rolleyes:

blockic

RunningKing wrote: »

Did you finanise your sessions for the plan?

Not yet, but it is work in progress! I should have in nailed down early next week. I'm thinking that Dunshaughin will be too soon for me. Looking for alternatives now in first 2 weeks of July.

Great checklist btw. Wouldn't put in race pace in LSRs for a 10km plan personally but everything else is all good!

DOCO12

Cheers for the replies guys. Due to a race last week I didn't get an LSR , and due to time constraints this week I don't know how I'm going to get one in. I might have to go very early in the morning ill go for a 10-12 this week and so on alternating weeks. Like that planning in Dublin so wana have a good base. When are ye all starting yer Autumn Marathon plans?

menoscemo

DOCO12 wrote: »

Cheers for the replies guys. Due to a race last week I didn't get an LSR , and due to time constraints this week I don't know how I'm going to get one in. I might have to go very early in the morning ill go for a 10-12 this week and so on alternating weeks. Like that planning in Dublin so wana have a good base. When are ye all starting yer Autumn Marathon plans?

I would say 12-14 weeks is loads for people starting a Marathon specific plan for DCM if you have been regularly running all year before starting the plan.
If you are doing 10-15 miles regularly in your LSR's there is no need to be starting 18-20 weeks out building up the LSR's from below 10 miles.

I would say the ideal thing to do would be to focus on a 10k-HM race at the middle of/end of July and train specifically for that over the next few months. Once you get your time in that race you will have an idea of a Goal for DCM and the marathon specific phase can begin.

I would be happy enough to do a DCM plan for this thread (as I said before) but it would be a tough enough plan for someone starting from scratch, Ideally you would already be covering 30+ miles per week before beginning it.

blockic

I'll be starting a 12 week plan on July 15th with my goal marathon being 2 weeks before DCM. As meno said, no need for an 18 week plan if you have a good base.

DOCO12

menoscemo wrote: »

I would say 12-14 weeks is loads for people starting a Marathon specific plan for DCM if you have been regularly running all year before starting the plan.
If you are doing 10-15 miles regularly in your LSR's there is no need to be starting 18-20 weeks out building up the LSR's from below 10 miles.

I would say the ideal thing to do would be to focus on a 10k-HM race at the middle of/end of July and train specifically for that over the next few months. Once you get your time in that race you will have an idea of a Goal for DCM and the marathon specific phase can begin.

I would be happy enough to do a DCM plan for this thread (as I said before) but it would be a tough enough plan for someone starting from scratch, Ideally you would already be covering 30+ miles per week before beginning it.

Thanks Meno that would be brill if you did a plan for us. I had planned on following P&D but be great to have your wisdom too I was unfortunately unable to follow your post marathon training due to carrying an injury for a few months. So Id love to have a go to plan instead of just making it up myself as I go along. I know 30miles should be the starting base but what do you think is the optimum number of runs per week? I currently do 5, should I be aiming for 6?

drquirky

blockic wrote: »

I'll be starting a 12 week plan on July 15th with my goal marathon being 2 weeks before DCM. As meno said, no need for an 18 week plan if you have a good base.

Block- whats your goal marathon? I'm running one 2 weeks before DCM as well...Budapest

menoscemo

DOCO12 wrote: »

Thanks Meno that would be brill if you did a plan for us. I had planned on following P&D but be great to have your wisdom too I was unfortunately unable to follow your post marathon training due to carrying an injury for a few months. So Id love to have a go to plan instead of just making it up myself as I go along. I know 30miles should be the starting base but what do you think is the optimum number of runs per week? I currently do 5, should I be aiming for 6?

5 is fine, 6 is better :pac:
No Honestly if you are doing 5 runs a week at the moment that is loads, we will definitely be looking for 6 as the marathon plan unfolds.

I'll be basing the Graduate plan on what I used with career_move. I only have a sample size of 1 at the moment but it seemed to be a good success. The only thing that might be difficult is keeping some kind of uniformity as some people might be bigger mileage runners than others; also Tune up races might depend on which part of the country you are all in, but I am sure we can manage....

blockic

drquirky wrote: »

Block- whats your goal marathon? I'm running one 2 weeks before DCM as well...Budapest

I'll be heading in the opposite direction, Chicago on Oct 13th. I think Cologne is on the same day too.

blockic

menoscemo wrote: »

I'll be basing the Graduate plan on what I used with career_move. I only have a sample size of 1 at the moment but it seemed to be a good success.

How much are you charging? You can leave your wallet at home the evening of DCM I'd say! :P

RunningKing

blockic wrote: »

Not yet, but it is work in progress! I should have in nailed down early next week. I'm thinking that Dunshaughin will be too soon for me. Looking for alternatives now in first 2 weeks of July.

Great checklist btw. Wouldn't put in race pace in LSRs for a 10km plan personally but everything else is all good!

Yeah - its interesting.
I seen some plans and comment around doing the last bit of a LSR at 10km pace to mimic fatigue and promote fast kick finishes. Start at final 800m and grow to 2-3miles at the end of LSR.
This was on Running Planet 'Advanced plan' - I got advice from Ecoli that RP plans are very very tough.

P&D 'Road Runners for Serious Runners' brought a lot of stuff home to me regarding training plans.

SouthMan

Good Info there Meno thanks - was trying to think for the last few days when I should start again for DCM (given that I've only just finished Limerick).I guess it's gonna mean a few runs when I go on hols in July.What's the norm after doing a marathon before getting back to some miles again - a week or two rest sufficient ?

blockic

SouthMan wrote: »

Good Info there Meno thanks - was trying to think for the last few days when I should start again for DCM (given that I've only just finished Limerick).I guess it's gonna mean a few runs when I go on hols in July.What's the norm after doing a marathon before getting back to some miles again - a week or two rest sufficient ?

Depends how your legs/body feel. I didn't do this myself :rolleyes: but If I were you I'd take 7-10 days off anyway then for the next 2 weeks after that run when you feel like it but don't go any faster that Marathon Pace +1-2 mins per mile. Basically recovery paced runs and they should take nothing out of you. After the 3-4 weeks you could then start looking at a bit of structure again.

Maybe look back at this thread on the plan meno done up after DCM this year. Might be a good to do some of those session after you are recovered.

drquirky

Was posting in another log this morning and had a thought about the amount of "difficult" spring marathons coming out of the DCM 2012 newbie group and I think I might have a possible reason. As many of you are new to running- the base simply isn't there to bang out two full on raced marathons in the relatively short space of time between DCM and the spring maras in April/ May.

I was wondering if people had any thoughts on this. Its just struck me that out of a relatively small sample size, we've had 3 DNF's involving the medical tent and a couple of missed goals. I'm thinking of my own experiences here where I came off a 13 year "break" in competitive running and ran DCM 2011 (very undertrained) I blew up (badly) There is no way I had the strength for another shot in April or May of 2012 and tbh its only in the last 6 months or so that I can feel my aerobic base/ system coming back into a state that will allow me to run the times I wanna run. Its really important to remember that building really solid strength takes years and I'm starting to feel strongly that we (on boards) are encouraging people to rush marathons w/ not so desirable results.

I guess the strongest evidence here is that we have a slew off "2012 newbies" pb'ing and running great shorter distance times but in terms of the marathon, I don't think anyone would argue that the returns from this group have been in many ways disastrous. Just thinking out loud here so jump in if you think I'm full of sh&t / agree with me...

Sara2002

A nice windy 9 mile run for me this morning. But nothing like the wind last Saturday on Bull Island! My God they were fierce-I nearly got blown over at one stage.
Is anybody doing the Terenure 5 mile next weekend?

menoscemo

I totally think you have hit the nail on the head Dr Quirky. At the start if the thread I clearly said I wouldn't advise doing a spring marathon, rather 8 months of base building and racing up to HM's then attacking DCM again. That's what I did myself after my first DCM.
Anyway, what's done is done at this stage; onwards and upwards.

blockic

drquirky wrote: »

As many of you are new to running- the base simply isn't there to bang out two full on raced marathons in the relatively short space of time between DCM and the spring maras in April/ May.

I don't think anyone would argue that the returns from this group have been in many ways disastrous. Just thinking out loud here so jump in if you think I'm full of sh&t / agree with me...

It's probably one of the better explanations so far anyway and I can see how it could be possible, as you say it takes years to build up a good aerobic base.

Overall the return on investment from the group has no doubt been poor so far from the marathon perspective with only one or two hitting their goals from what I can see.

In a perfect world, It would be much better after DCM if I put in a solid 12 months work before I attempted a second marathon but naturally after the high of the first one, all you want to do is go and do another as soon as possible.

Maybe the learnings are here on this thread for future DCM novices going forward.

All that said, I'm still glad I gained the experience of these past couple of months and it can only stand to me in the future.

statss

I'm not one of the 2012 novices but Dr.Quirky's post has certainly stuck a chord with me as I've been getting various niggles in the lead up to, and now after, my 1st marathon. Fair play for calling it out, it's good to hear constructive advice / criticism/ observations. That's what makes this forum such a valuable resource for newbies.

drquirky

blockic wrote: »

Maybe the learnings are here on this thread for future DCM novices going forward.

All that said, I'm still glad I gained the experience of these past couple of months and it can only stand to me in the future.

Agree w/ ya there man. Reason I brought it up is it may be helpful tot the next group coming through!

That Rotterdam experience will definitely stand to you- thats never been in doubt.

Pacing Mule

drquirky wrote: »

Was posting in another log this morning and had a thought about the amount of "difficult" spring marathons coming out of the DCM 2012 newbie group and I think I might have a possible reason. As many of you are new to running- the base simply isn't there to bang out two full on raced marathons in the relatively short space of time between DCM and the spring maras in April/ May.

I was wondering if people had any thoughts on this. Its just struck me that out of a relatively small sample size, we've had 3 DNF's involving the medical tent and a couple of missed goals. I'm thinking of my own experiences here where I came off a 13 year "break" in competitive running and ran DCM 2011 (very undertrained) I blew up (badly) There is no way I had the strength for another shot in April or May of 2012 and tbh its only in the last 6 months or so that I can feel my aerobic base/ system coming back into a state that will allow me to run the times I wanna run. Its really important to remember that building really solid strength takes years and I'm starting to feel strongly that we (on boards) are encouraging people to rush marathons w/ not so desirable results.

I guess the strongest evidence here is that we have a slew off "2012 newbies" pb'ing and running great shorter distance times but in terms of the marathon, I don't think anyone would argue that the returns from this group have been in many ways disastrous. Just thinking out loud here so jump in if you think I'm full of sh&t / agree with me...

It's a very interesting point / observation you make.

As a matter of interest how does this years group compare with previous years ? I think that the 2012 group have knitted quite well together - this thread being evidence of a huge chunk of the group staying together supporting, encouraging and perhaps egging each other on more than would be advisable ? At the same time I also wonder is the observation made only made now in part because of this thread / the race sheets etc where results are clearly laid out to be observed. Did the same occur with the 2010, 2011 novices ? and if it did perhaps greater awareness of this could be instilled into the 2013 novices right from the start. It may be more beneficial to them in the long run.