DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

TRR

Good point drquirky (but you are full of sh1t )

I'd agree and disagree with you. As with everything it's runner specific. May be true for some people and not for others I suppose it depends on their background.

When you finish a marathon it feels like there is a massive void, almost a loss in some cases as you have nothing to aim for and that is why a lot of people sign up for another marathon so quickly. I think the mental side of things as well as physical are sometimes overlooked. I ran my 6th and 7th marathons within 5 months of one another and this was a massive mistake as mentally I was coming off a high on the 6th and wasn't prepared to put the hard work in again or make the same sacrafices etc. On the flip side I think my first 4 marathons were all within 18 months and I was pumped trying to go faster. I did have a decent aerobic base however so the physical breakdown you mention wasn't an issue.

drquirky

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

It's a very interesting point / observation you make.

As a matter of interest how does this years group compare with previous years ? I think that the 2012 group have knitted quite well together - this thread being evidence of a huge chunk of the group staying together supporting, encouraging and perhaps egging each other on more than would be advisable ? At the same time I also wonder is the observation made only made now in part because of this thread / the race sheets etc where results are clearly laid out to be observed. Did the same occur with the 2010, 2011 novices ? and if it did perhaps greater awareness of this could be instilled into the 2013 novices right from the start. It may be more beneficial to them in the long run.

Yeah you're right PM- I never would have noticed the results if they were all just put out in individual training logs- this thread has many benefits in addition to that but it is great for identifying possible trends. No idea on the 2010/2011 groups.

I'd be all for sharing whatever info w/ the 2013 group...

vitani

drquirky wrote: »

Was posting in another log this morning and had a thought about the amount of "difficult" spring marathons coming out of the DCM 2012 newbie group and I think I might have a possible reason. As many of you are new to running- the base simply isn't there to bang out two full on raced marathons in the relatively short space of time between DCM and the spring maras in April/ May.

I was wondering if people had any thoughts on this. Its just struck me that out of a relatively small sample size, we've had 3 DNF's involving the medical tent and a couple of missed goals. I'm thinking of my own experiences here where I came off a 13 year "break" in competitive running and ran DCM 2011 (very undertrained) I blew up (badly) There is no way I had the strength for another shot in April or May of 2012 and tbh its only in the last 6 months or so that I can feel my aerobic base/ system coming back into a state that will allow me to run the times I wanna run. Its really important to remember that building really solid strength takes years and I'm starting to feel strongly that we (on boards) are encouraging people to rush marathons w/ not so desirable results.

I guess the strongest evidence here is that we have a slew off "2012 newbies" pb'ing and running great shorter distance times but in terms of the marathon, I don't think anyone would argue that the returns from this group have been in many ways disastrous. Just thinking out loud here so jump in if you think I'm full of sh&t / agree with me...

I thanked your post in that log because it's something that wouldn't have occurred to me if you hadn't mentioned it. Most people in this forum seem to run their second marathon about half a year after their first and when I'm daydreaming about my own running plans, I'd be planning something similar.

Out of interest (and I'm aware I'm getting well ahead of myself here but it's a perfect opportunity to ask) but how long do you think should someone be running before attempting two marathons in one year? If all goes to plan, by the time I do DCM next year, I'll have been running for 22 months. Obviously, it will all depend on how marathon running suits (or even if it suits) but on paper, should someone running for less than 2 years leave it another year before attempting their second marathon?

Pacing Mule

drquirky wrote: »

Yeah you're right PM- I never would have noticed the results if they were all just put out in individual training logs- this thread has many benefits in addition to that but it is great for identifying possible trends. No idea on the 2010/2011 groups.

I'd be all for sharing whatever info w/ the 2013 group...

Don't know if you saw this or not prior to making the observation but ..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvtQvl8pDuH3dFEyTDZDTXhJaEh5dGpRYzZQQ2JFZVE#gid=3

the tracker we run has a race results tab at the end. I know some people haven't filled results in but you can see at a glance the improvement of PB's and meeting target times over shorter distances which does contrast sadly with the recent marathon results.

drquirky

vitani wrote: »

Out of interest (and I'm aware I'm getting well ahead of myself here but it's a perfect opportunity to ask) but how long do you think should someone be running before attempting two marathons in one year? If all goes to plan, by the time I do DCM next year, I'll have been running for 22 months. Obviously, it will all depend on how marathon running suits (or even if it suits) but on paper, should someone running for less than 2 years leave it another year before attempting their second marathon?

I'd refer to TRR's post above- it varies by person but tbh- I personally think 2 yrs would be an absolute minimum amount of time to have been running before attempting to race 2 marathons in one year....

davemcmahon

drquirky wrote: »

Was posting in another log this morning and had a thought about the amount of "difficult" spring marathons coming out of the DCM 2012 newbie group and I think I might have a possible reason. As many of you are new to running- the base simply isn't there to bang out two full on raced marathons in the relatively short space of time between DCM and the spring maras in April/ May.

I was wondering if people had any thoughts on this. Its just struck me that out of a relatively small sample size, we've had 3 DNF's involving the medical tent and a couple of missed goals. I'm thinking of my own experiences here where I came off a 13 year "break" in competitive running and ran DCM 2011 (very undertrained) I blew up (badly) There is no way I had the strength for another shot in April or May of 2012 and tbh its only in the last 6 months or so that I can feel my aerobic base/ system coming back into a state that will allow me to run the times I wanna run. Its really important to remember that building really solid strength takes years and I'm starting to feel strongly that we (on boards) are encouraging people to rush marathons w/ not so desirable results.

I guess the strongest evidence here is that we have a slew off "2012 newbies" pb'ing and running great shorter distance times but in terms of the marathon, I don't think anyone would argue that the returns from this group have been in many ways disastrous. Just thinking out loud here so jump in if you think I'm full of sh&t / agree with me...

There is a lot I agree with in this post. Speaking from my own experience, I struggled badly in the second have of DCM 2012. At the time I didn't know why, I thought the training had gone well and I'd only missed a handfull of runs through injury. Now I believe it was purely down to the lack of a good running base. Since DCM I've focused on running the shorter distances bringing my times down a fair bit over the last 6 months in particular. There was no way I had another marathon in me in Spring. I plan to return to the marathon next year because I want to spend this year getting the base I (in my opinion) should have had before I ever considered doing the marathon. I should point out I don't regret doing it, it has taught me alot.

Dilbert75

Interesting points. As always there are exceptions to every rule and I'm one. I did Edinburgh in May last year on the back of too little training and an injury. For DCM I followed the group here and bettered my time by over an hour. I then undertook a harder plan, which has made me much faster but should have also given me much better endurance. And I crashed and burned.

I think we tend to forget that improvement doesn't necessarily come in round numbers. So just cos I broke 4 in DCM doesn't mean I should expect to break 3.30 six months later, no matter how hard I work. There's got to be a balance between our expectations for speed improvement and time elapsed.

Gavlor

drquirky wrote: »

I'd refer to TRR's post above- it varies by person but tbh- I personally think 2 yrs would be an absolute minimum amount of time to have been running before attempting to race 2 marathons in one year....

I agree with the fact it varies. I think the variance depends on the level of core and aerobic fitness a person has before they start running.

Take 2 examples from last yrs newbies.

Me; limerick was my 3rd marathon in 10 months. Times have been 3.26; 3.09; 3.01. Whilst I missed my target in limerick, at no stage did I feel like dropping out.

Career_move; 2nd marathon in 6 months. Just under 4.00 to sub 3.30. Again, great progress.

The point I want to make is that I had a great base from playing soccer at a fairly decent level and doing alot of cycling including a few 150k + sportives.

C_m is a jockey, enough said.

I made the point before that a lot of people on this thread came to running last year from doing nothing at all, c25k, 5 a side and golf etc and expected to be able to make dramatic improvements over 6 months simply by following different training plans.

In my humble opinion, in order to successfully improve marathon times over a short time period you need to be starting from a high fitness level. Otherwise it's going to take a lot more time than 6 months. There's a big difference in completing a marathon an improving on a marathon.

KillianByrne

Well we're all very clever after the event!

With my experience now I'm expecting a 3:45 in DCM13.



I'm joking, on both counts. Maybe.

KillianByrne

I spent the last few days in the pool both for recovery and getting a late start on TriAthy training. Feel good with all traces of DOMS now gone.

Bought new runners this morning, I actually bought 2 pairs, Asics store in Kildare village had my size in the same pair I currently use, on special and there was an extra 20% off. Two pairs for just over €99. That should get me to DCM14!

Steroo

Good discussion. I didn't come from a very physical background..poor base... So you're all making me v nervous about cork!!

Ps just bought my first foam roller.. Holy fyckin shyt ouch

Something tells me my IT band is my problem lately

Big Logger

drquirky wrote: »

Was posting in another log this morning and had a thought about the amount of "difficult" spring marathons coming out of the DCM 2012 newbie group and I think I might have a possible reason. As many of you are new to running- the base simply isn't there to bang out two full on raced marathons in the relatively short space of time between DCM and the spring maras in April/ May.

I was wondering if people had any thoughts on this. Its just struck me that out of a relatively small sample size, we've had 3 DNF's involving the medical tent and a couple of missed goals. I'm thinking of my own experiences here where I came off a 13 year "break" in competitive running and ran DCM 2011 (very undertrained) I blew up (badly) There is no way I had the strength for another shot in April or May of 2012 and tbh its only in the last 6 months or so that I can feel my aerobic base/ system coming back into a state that will allow me to run the times I wanna run. Its really important to remember that building really solid strength takes years and I'm starting to feel strongly that we (on boards) are encouraging people to rush marathons w/ not so desirable results.

I guess the strongest evidence here is that we have a slew off "2012 newbies" pb'ing and running great shorter distance times but in terms of the marathon, I don't think anyone would argue that the returns from this group have been in many ways disastrous. Just thinking out loud here so jump in if you think I'm full of sh&t / agree with me...

I've been reading through the log here and went back to the chaps thread about the Rotterdam marathon as well. All of the above was said by rasher_m a few weeks ago.

Dilbert75

You've obviously done a lot of reading for a newbie.;) Yes Rasher_m had made some similar points to some of those discussed above. (Unfortunately you'll also see that it seemed to get a bit personal, it all got out of hand and she closed her account). The thing is that it all depends on so many things that it's hard to make generalisations based on such a small population.

drquirky

Big Logger wrote: »

I've been reading through the log here and went back to the chaps thread about the Rotterdam marathon as well. All of the above was said by rasher_m a few weeks ago.

Hey Rasher- nice new name!

Pacing Mule

drquirky wrote: »

Hey Rasher- nice new name!

Could see a post like that coming a mile off

Dilbert75

drquirky wrote: »

I'd refer to TRR's post above- it varies by person but tbh- I personally think 2 yrs would be an absolute minimum amount of time to have been running before attempting to race 2 marathons in one year....

But why? Is it that they physically drain you so much that you can't recover adequately? If so how does experience change that? When you say you think people should be running 2 years before they RACE 2 marathons in a year, does that mean it'd be ok to do more for fun instead of for times? I'm not trying to be contrary (it comes very easily to me ) but I'm trying to understand.

New runner

Some good points n it's great to get discussions going but hey have u all made me SO NERVOUS was feeling so good about my last ling run done n dusted this morning too n hitting taper! This weekend last year was my 1st run, now on taper for my 2nd marathon! Was feeling fairly optimistic too!! Nervous wreck now though!!!

Gavlor

New runner wrote: »

Some good points n it's great to get discussions going but hey have u all made me SO NERVOUS was feeling so good about my last ling run done n dusted this morning too n hitting taper! This weekend last year was my 1st run, now on taper for my 2nd marathon! Was feeling fairly optimistic too!! Nervous wreck now though!!!

Basically, you are f&cked and will more than likely end up in the gutter.

Accept that now and anything better will be a huge bonus

Ps, is it peroni o'clock yet??!

Steroo

Gavlor wrote: »

Basically, you are f&cked and will more than likely end up in the gutter.

Accept that now and anything better will be a huge bonus

Ps, is it peroni o'clock yet??!

I can't wait to go on the fkcin lash! Body and soul festival anyone?!

overpronator

New runner wrote: »

Some good points n it's great to get discussions going but hey have u all made me SO NERVOUS was feeling so good about my last ling run done n dusted this morning too n hitting taper! This weekend last year was my 1st run, now on taper for my 2nd marathon! Was feeling fairly optimistic too!! Nervous wreck now though!!!

Don't worry about it, I'm similar to you, this weekend last year was my first run. I ran my second marathon as hard as I could last weekend and yes whilst I blew up I ran an 18 minute PB. I think a lot of what the guys are suggesting is worth taking on board and whilst its good to be aware of this stuff, it shouldnt stop you going out giving your race a good lash and enjoying it.

Murph_D

We'll all be better off once Meno's Graduate Plan replaces this P&D madness that had everyone kissing the asphalt recently :-).

Having said that - I didn't even follow P&D and look at me, injured and out of it, long before the gun goes off in Cork. So what do I know...

Still, drquirky's comments make perfect sense to me. The exceptions (Career Move and Gavlor) might well prove the rule.

Murph_D

Big Logger wrote: »

I've been reading through the log here and went back to the chaps thread about the Rotterdam marathon as well. All of the above was said by rasher_m a few weeks ago.

Yes, welcome back, rasher. :pac:

menoscemo

Dilbert75 wrote: »

But why? Is it that they physically drain you so much that you can't recover adequately? If so how does experience change that? When you say you think people should be running 2 years before they RACE 2 marathons in a year, does that mean it'd be ok to do more for fun instead of for times? I'm not trying to be contrary (it comes very easily to me ) but I'm trying to understand.

Racing them takes a lot out of you (in terms of preparation as much as in terms of the race itself). I raced London this year after almost a year of preparation, having missed Berlin, and have no intention of racing a Marathon for another year.....
Taking them easy is a different story. I fully intend to do pacing in DCM next year (I did last year too and don't count it when I say a year in prep) and Donadea 50k before racing a marathon again. Doing a marathon (or more) at a controlled easy pace is no more than an LSR in terms of recovery...

RedRunner

I've done two marathons now and I blew up at twenty miles on both occasions and I've been 'running' for three years now. Took 18 mins off my first one, the second time round but I'm convinced the blow ups were due to lack of base mileage from first half of year.(I did DCM each time).This is why this year is all about increased mileage for me(and try stay injury free,which hampered my training both times).

The extra mileage is already paying dividends on the shorter courses up to HM so hopefully I can go into Meno's plan feeling strong and confident with the extra miles in the legs.Looking to take 45 mins off marathon (DCM)PB this time round:eek:

RedRunner

I've pondered a while whether it is wise to post this on here right now but here goes. it may be an interesting topic. A few weeks ago I underwent a full health check, the full works. All results were good but the ECG showed up something unusual that the Doc recommended I follow up on. Basically I have normal sinus rhythm but show signs of something called "First Degree Heart Block" Sounds awful, and I was a bit scared at first what it might mean. Having now seen my GP and got some comfort from what he said(which is why I feel comfortable about posting this here now),I'm not as worried. Apparently it is quite common amongst "Elite Athletes" :pac: Heh heh...he said elite:) The upshot is that I'm being referred onto cardiologist as precaution but I can continue running and living as normal in meantime.

So my question is really more out of curiosity if anyone else on here especially the more experienced runners have heard of this or know of anyone with this condition who still continues to run and particularly in endurance events such as the marathon. I'd be gutted if I had to give up or cut down on the running in the future.

docjewel

Without opening up old war wounds I think another issue here is the base most are working from this Spring.The tried & trusted plan of Hal Higdon novices plans are great to get someone around the course but as some have questioned whether an extra 20mile run or two may not have gone astray,but in saying that its probably not a good idea for most(as gavlor has already pointed out where most were coming from) to jump into a higher mileage plan without a consistent base to work from.

My own experience from last year,I spent the end of December & start of January working on a base so I could do the mileage P&D prescribed,a few niggles were picked up along the way & in hindsight made a balls of Waterford by going out too fast,I wanted to do Dublin as well but with an injury being picked up I was unsure of my appetite for it until a request for my little man's Special Needs School to run it for them,it was just the buzz I needed & with the support of the other parents I managed to knock 5 mins off my Waterford time with really not a lot of training done for it but relying on the base built up for Waterford.


I have to admit I'm still unsure about 3:30 for. Cork,I'm not a speed merchant but have a good base built,but did get a confidence boost from a 5mile race tonight,35:29 according to Garmin,2 secs off old time,will wait to see what official result says before posting race report ,last year I couldn't break 37 mins for 5miles,this year I have done two 5milers,a 35:31(official) & a 35:29(unofficial)

dechol

I am finding the discussion about having a solid base very interesting.I have been questioning my own base for dcm 2013. This year has been very stop start and thinking I am now going to give dcm a miss this year. I have decided I really want to work on building a strong base and give dcm 2014 a really decent shot. Have signed up for race series and will work on getting pb in each race which won't be too hard since I was so slow last yr!

Big Logger

drquirky wrote: »

Hey Rasher- nice new name!

Whatever do you mean Dr mistaking me for that brilliant, attractive and intelligent woman?

I'll take it as a compliment for sure!

Dilbert75

We've missed you!

Big Logger

Dilbert75 wrote: »

We've missed you!

I missed you too! I couldn't stay away despite my love/hate relationsip I have on this forum.
I read about your race Dilbert and felt very upset for you, as I did for Blocky and Runchick especially as it was so near the end.