DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

Gavlor

tang1 wrote: »

Got second opinion, was in complete agony for weeks after 1st operation which wasn't right. Luckily it was able to be rectified by key-hole surgery 2nd time around. These things happen i suppose, just annoying when you pay top dollar and a ball$ is made of it.

Buddy of mine is in for his third op on the same knee injury later this month. He knew it didn't feel right after the first one but ignored it and put it down to normal side affects. Fair play for getting it looked at so quick.

tang1

Gavlor wrote: »

Buddy of mine is in for his third op on the same knee injury later this month. He knew it didn't feel right after the first one but ignored it and put it down to normal side affects. Fair play for getting it looked at so quick.

I'm not getting any younger so kind of want to make most of the running while i can. Thats a sickener for your mate, would put serious questions in my head regarding the surgeons doing the operations.

Steroo

tang1 wrote: »

Well done to all who ran DCM 2013, some great times ran. Hard luck to those who missed out through injury, i feel ye're pain BIG TIME. Not to blow sunshine up his ar$e cause i'm sure hes fed up of it at this stage, big well done to blockic on his sub3 hour marathon in Chicago. Shows where hard work and alot of natural talent can take you in 12 months.

As for myself, the operation i had in mid-june proved to be a disaster, surgeon made balls of it. Since been sorted, but no running under strict instructions till new year. Not allowed to do any weight bearing exercise only exercise bike in gym and exercises to improve the knee strength.

Was just wondering how you were doing this morning, was out on seafront and saw the boys in blue, was thinking you'd be near fully recovered, that's awful about the surgeons blunder. You've great patience, hope it heals well now and gets strong soon for you.

DOCO12

Tang1 that sucks so sorry to hear that, hope you get sorted asap.

Feet up watching coverage of New York marathon on Eurosport, it's def one for the bucket list, be amazing although def not the easiest looking at the climb at the start. I see even at the start of the mens elite race people are dumping tops/jackets on the ground leaving those starting behind them having to hop over them. What's wrong with people do they not care they may be the cause of someone else tripping? Meant to say that in my race report that I was disgusted with all the drink bottles and tops thrown on the ground at the start last week.

Runchick

Tang sorry to hear about the knee - surely you're due better luck next year. Best of luck with it anyway - I've just started running again after nearly 3 weeks out - can't imagine how frustrating your time off has been.

Doco just read your race report - well done on the PB and as you say you learned a lot from it and know what game plan suits you best - must agree starting slower and building up to race pace seems to suit me better too - hopefully we both get to try this out in a marathon next year

Redrunner - looks like we'll be virtual training partners over the next few months, I'm targeting more or less the same races as you with London being the biggie - even mentioning it makes me smile I have c_m's plan bookmarked and hope to more or less follow it again too.

AuldManKing

tang1 wrote: »

Well done to all who ran DCM 2013, some great times ran. Hard luck to those who missed out through injury, i feel ye're pain BIG TIME. Not to blow sunshine up his ar$e cause i'm sure hes fed up of it at this stage, big well done to blockic on his sub3 hour marathon in Chicago. Shows where hard work and alot of natural talent can take you in 12 months.

As for myself, the operation i had in mid-june proved to be a disaster, surgeon made balls of it. Since been sorted, but no running under strict instructions till new year. Not allowed to do any weight bearing exercise only exercise bike in gym and exercises to improve the knee strength.

Bad news Tang, hopefully all ok this time.
Hopefully see you for pints on the 7th.

tang1

AuldManKing wrote: »

Bad news Tang, hopefully all ok this time.
Hopefully see you for pints on the 7th.

Cheers A, will do my best to make the 7th. Somebody will have to prepare the throne for AMK:p:p

Big Logger

tang1 wrote: »

Cheers A, will do my best to make the 7th. Somebody will have to prepare the throne for AMK:p:p

What surgery did you get Tang, I can't remember exactly?
How did they manage to mess it up?

tang1

Not to sound smart, if i knew how they messed it up i wouldn't have got the 2nd op. Got both meniscus cartilege done, seemingly the right one wasnt done properly hence the need for the key hole surgery few weeks back. First operation was knocked out totally, one few weeks back sedation was up to yourself.

Pacing Mule

So boards beers on the 7th - who's going ?

RedRunner

Pacing Mule wrote: »

So boards beers on the 7th - who's going ?

I hope to go PM but its a bit far away to be absolutely sure ill make it. pencilled in anyway.

New runner

That's omagh half out for me next year, got date for twins confirmation n it 29th march . Same date :-(

AdpRo

What have people done in the past while training for a half marathon in regards HMP miles?

I plan on doing the Clontarf half on 23rd and done 10 miles last night with 8 @ HMP, it was reasonably comfortable, mile 7 was all uphill against the wind which kind of knocked the stuffing out of me but I could probably have done another 1 maybe 2 HMP miles but definitely no more! Is this enough to get me through or should I try 10 @ HMP next week?

Steroo

Weetabix wrote: »

What have people done in the past while training for a half marathon in regards HMP miles?

I plan on doing the Clontarf half on 23rd and done 10 miles last night with 8 @ HMP, it was reasonably comfortable, mile 7 was all uphill against the wind which kind of knocked the stuffing out of me but I could probably have done another 1 maybe 2 HMP miles but definitely no more! Is this enough to get me through or should I try 10 @ HMP next week?

I'd say you should up your pace a bit on race day if you were comfy.

overpronator

Weetabix wrote: »

What have people done in the past while training for a half marathon in regards HMP miles?

I plan on doing the Clontarf half on 23rd and done 10 miles last night with 8 @ HMP, it was reasonably comfortable, mile 7 was all uphill against the wind which kind of knocked the stuffing out of me but I could probably have done another 1 maybe 2 HMP miles but definitely no more! Is this enough to get me through or should I try 10 @ HMP next week?

If you can run 8 comfortably in training id say you could go a fair bit faster than that pace in the race?

blockic

Weetabix wrote: »

What have people done in the past while training for a half marathon in regards HMP miles?

I plan on doing the Clontarf half on 23rd and done 10 miles last night with 8 @ HMP, it was reasonably comfortable, mile 7 was all uphill against the wind which kind of knocked the stuffing out of me but I could probably have done another 1 maybe 2 HMP miles but definitely no more! Is this enough to get me through or should I try 10 @ HMP next week?

The key session in HM training would be 7m @HMP maybe 10 days out...If you can hold for 7 in training...you'll likely hold it for 13.1 in the race.

I wouldn't go past 7 myself, if you can do 8 comfortably I reckon you could be selling yourself a bit short like the others say...

AdpRo

blockic wrote: »

The key session in HM training would be 7m @HMP maybe 10 days out...If you can hold for 7 in training...you'll likely hold it for 13.1 in the race.

I wouldn't go past 7 myself, if you can do 8 comfortably I reckon you could be selling yourself a bit short like the others say...

Thanks all, have ran 3 halfs in last 2 years with the aim of getting under 2 hours, missing out by between 1 1/2 mins and 3 mins each time, was at my fittest earlier on in the summer before getting injuried and would have been confident of getting under 1hr 55min but only just getting back running regularly in last 6 weeks so going to stick with pacers and if going well I will push on towards the end, main aim is to get under 2 hours, anything else is a bonus!

tomred1N

Question for Meno if he still in the house

Feel safer asking these type of questions when my wife is gone out !!

What kind of training would you need to add to the marathon plan we just followed for dcm if I was to advise someone i know who might be intetested in doing the an ultra in april somewhete near a spa hotel in the west of ireland ?

career_move

tomred1N wrote: »

Question for Meno if he still in the house

Feel safer asking these type of questions when my wife is gone out !!

What kind of training would you need to add to the marathon plan we just followed for dcm if I was to advise someone i know who might be intetested in doing the an ultra in april somewhete near a spa hotel in the west of ireland ?

menoscemo

tomred1N wrote: »

Question for Meno if he still in the house

Feel safer asking these type of questions when my wife is gone out !!

What kind of training would you need to add to the marathon plan we just followed for dcm if I was to advise someone i know who might be intetested in doing the an ultra in april somewhete near a spa hotel in the west of ireland ?

Is this someone you? :eek:
Miles are the key for this....for me it was all about double long runs at the weekends. Starting about 16miles saturday; 10 miles sunday and working up to 20 miles both days. Try the double 20 a few times and chuck in a 30 miler too and you'll be ready.
I ditched all speedwork for this race but both times I was tempted into atempting a Marathon PB 3-4 weeks out (and achieved it both times easily- just shows that miles are king). If Conn ultra is your goal race, try to avoid racing a marathon just before the big race- I am pretty sure it wrecked my Ultra both times...

menoscemo

I'd also highly recommend this race, but just run it handy with aview to practsising your nutrition etc. (hurry though- there aren't too many places left).

tomred1N

menoscemo wrote: »

Is this someone you? :eek:
Miles are the key for this....for me it was all about double long runs at the weekends. Starting about 16miles saturday; 10 miles sunday and working up to 20 miles both days. Try the double 20 a few times and chuck in a 30 miler too and you'll be ready.
I ditched all speedwork for this race but both times I was tempted into atempting a Marathon PB 3-4 weeks out (and achieved it both times easily- just shows that miles are king). If Conn ultra is your goal race, try to avoid racing a marathon just before the big race- I am pretty sure it wrecked my Ultra both times...

Tbh I'm all over the place at the moment trying to decide what to do over the winter. Flipping between 10k, half plans, 3.15 marathon plans and now the ultra. I defo want to do an ultra sometime but seeing what it could do to a weekend I'm not sure. That said I guess its mostly easy miles just lots of them!! thinking i might miss the wed sessions though which I enjoyed most from last plan. Ultimatley want to improve my marathon time next time I do one so I, m really just trying to figure out the best way of doing this given I have 3 done in past 12 months. Is it best to take a break from them or drive on and use base already there.

menoscemo

tomred1N wrote: »

Tbh I'm all over the place at the moment trying to decide what to do over the winter. Flipping between 10k, half plans, 3.15 marathon plans and now the ultra. I defo want to do an ultra sometime but seeing what it could do to a weekend I'm not sure. That said I guess its mostly easy miles just lots of them!! thinking i might miss the wed sessions though which I enjoyed most from last plan. Ultimatley want to improve my marathon time next time I do one so I, m really just trying to figure out the best way of doing this given I have 3 done in past 12 months. Is it best to take a break from them or drive on and use base already there.

I wouldn't knock Ultra training as a way to improving your marathon time. Most people don't perform to their ability over Marathon compared to their other times and the Ultra training really gives you strength and improves this. As I said I set 2 marathon PB's training for Conn Ultra (on both occasions I had run 30+ mile runs the weekend before and had no taper...).
If you can get up to say 70 mpw training for an ultra then you can carry this type of mileage into your next marathon programme and add a bit of intensity on top and you should see massive improvements....

drquirky

tomred1N wrote: »

Tbh I'm all over the place at the moment trying to decide what to do over the winter. Flipping between 10k, half plans, 3.15 marathon plans and now the ultra. I defo want to do an ultra sometime but seeing what it could do to a weekend I'm not sure. That said I guess its mostly easy miles just lots of them!! thinking i might miss the wed sessions though which I enjoyed most from last plan. Ultimatley want to improve my marathon time next time I do one so I, m really just trying to figure out the best way of doing this given I have 3 done in past 12 months. Is it best to take a break from them or drive on and use base already there.

TBH you'll get the most benefit from a 5k/10k cycle. 3 marathons in a year is a lot (especially if you've raced them) your body would benefit from doing something different and you'd increase turnover/ vo2 max/ running economy etc by getting some shorter quicker stuff into the legs.

If you decided to do the Ultra- remember it will be done SLOWER than your marathon pace- this will not really help to build your speed up for the next marathon. Give your body a break from the long, slow stuff and hit the roads/ xc/ track at the shorter distances!

drquirky

menoscemo wrote: »

I wouldn't knock Ultra training as a way to improving your marathon time. Most people don't perform to their ability over Marathon compared to their other times and the Ultra training really gives you strength and improves this. As I said I set 2 marathon PB's training for Conn Ultra (on both occasions I had run 30+ mile runs the weekend before and had no taper...).
If you can get up to say 70 mpw training for an ultra then you can carry this type of mileage into your next marathon programme and add a bit of intensity on top and you should see massive improvements....

I mostly agree with this Meno but I do think most runners who do a few marathons in a year and are probably nowhere near their potential in terms of speed/ turnover as they've only been doing longer races would really benefit from dropping down to the shorter stuff for a good bit, build those PB's up and have another pop at the marathon....

menoscemo

drquirky wrote: »

I mostly agree with this Meno but I do think most runners who do a few marathons in a year and are probably nowhere near their potential in terms of speed/ turnover as they've only been doing longer races would really benefit from dropping down to the shorter stuff for a good bit, build those PB's up and have another pop at the marathon....

I took 2 minutes off my 5 mile PB ( only 4 months old) training for Conn ultra (ran 15 miles after Raheny too); many ways to skin a cat.

I feel many people don't perform over Marathon, not because they are not fast enough but because they are not strong enough (especially relative novices). More miles is a massive help.

Also Look at CL in 2011- 2012
DCM 2011: 3:53
Conn Ultra 39.3 2012: 5:49
Berlin 2012: 3:08

I am not saying Conn was key, but it didn't hurt MarthaStew also took chunks off her marathon PB after doing Conn Ultra that year and she had been running for several years at the time....

pconn062

You can add strength (and miles) with a 5/10k plan though, most people who focus on marathons never train properly for shorter distances. You can do 70 mile a week in a 5k plan if you want. An ultra requires you to run slower with extra mileage but you can increase your mileage and include speedwork with a 5-10k plan, this is bound to benefit you more for a marathon as it will improve your overall running economy.

menoscemo

pconn062 wrote: »

You can add strength (and miles) with a 5/10k plan though, most people who focus on marathons never train properly for shorter distances. You can do 70 mile a week in a 5k plan if you want. An ultra requires you to run slower with extra mileage but you can increase your mileage and include speedwork with a 5-10k plan, this is bound to benefit you more for a marathon as it will improve your overall running economy.

I totally agree with this btw; if you can increase your mileage and do 5-10k speedwork at the same time you will add both strength and speed and that would be the ideal.
Problem is that most runners think 5-10k training = less miles; while doing ultra training can focus the athlete on doing more miles. It's difficult to add both miles and intensity at the same time so most people obviously look to do one first and then the other...

I think it is important for each individual runner to look at his/her strengths and weakness.

e.g in 2011 My HM time was 1:31 and My Mara time was 3:24. Strength at this time was obviously a weakness, and ultra training got my Mara time down to 3:10 while my HM time only dropped to 1:29.....

Now say if my HM time had been 1:36/1:37 with a Mara of 3:24, then clearly I would have benefitted from more speed rather than strength as I would have been already maximizing my pace over the distance...as I say Ultra training can be beneficial to you Marathon times if strength (endurance) is an issue....If it's not I would definitely recommend 5-10k training followed by endurance training.

DOCO12

tomred1N wrote: »

Tbh I'm all over the place at the moment trying to decide what to do over the winter. Flipping between 10k, half plans, 3.15 marathon plans and now the ultra. I defo want to do an ultra sometime but seeing what it could do to a weekend I'm not sure.

STOP tomred your putting ideas into my head Ha ha +1 on being all over the place with the what next ideas, these long dark evenings are giving me way too much thinking time, I don't know what to aim for.
The consensus here does seem to be the more miles the better no matter what distance your aiming for. So say if one was just aiming to focus on 5-10k for the time being, what length long run should we be looking at?

menoscemo

DOCO12 wrote: »

STOP tomred your putting ideas into my head Ha ha +1 on being all over the place with the what next ideas, these long dark evenings are giving me way too much thinking time, I don't know what to aim for.
The consensus here does seem to be the more miles the better no matter what distance your aiming for. So say if one was just aiming to focus on 5-10k for the time being, what length long run should we be looking at?

You should be doing at least 2hrs anyway. Maybe concentrate on picking up pace over last 30 minutes to 'steady'. If you can manage that and 1 speed (intervals, fartlek) and one speed endurance (tempo or longish MP run) per week you won't go wrong for anything up to HM.