DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

Dilbert75

menoscemo wrote: »

I'd say you folks with doubts are likely to give yourselves a pleasant surprise if you give the race 100%.

This is possibly the fairest assessment. But, when we're talking about sports psychology, I recommend a read of Bounce by Matthew Syed, a former British table tennis Olympian. It's about the myth of natural talent and the power of purposeful practise.

There's a whole chapter in there on why sports people fail to perform on the big day - bottling it - and the techniques they use to prevent that. One is convincing themselves that the big day isn't - it's just a training run, a practise match, etc. It removes the pressure, enables the athlete to overcome their nerves and empowers them to maximize their performance.

So for me I guess there's a bit of that at play here. But there's also an opportunity to run with some of the people with whom I shared the great experience of DCM12.

KillianByrne

My half PB is somewhere in the late 1.57's so you guys & gals with 1.40's can saunter around and drag me with you for a decent assault on my record.

Reindeer Run in Marlay park the following day for a slow recovery run!

blockic

So headed out tonight for a session...just like any other Wednesday night!

Small difference was instead of a nice warm public house with an open fire, it was a cold, wet and windy Kilkenny ring road!! :eek:

It is actually the first time since I started training for DCM that I got soaked on a run! Suprised I lasted this long, had been lucky up to now where the most i had ever been caught in was a small shower or drizzle! Felt good I must say running in a downpour!! I seem to like running in the rain!

Seeing as I put a little wager on with Santa Claus last night for Waterford I said I would put some focus on tonights run!

Anyway splits were:

8:25, 6:50, 6:47, 8:32, 6:46, 6:45, 8:38

Toughest was by far the 3rd mile, uphill, lashing rain in a head wind!! However, I had the wind behind me for the second rep so was much easier!

I have it easy now for the rest of the week and got my first 5k race on Sunday!!

dazza21ie

blockic wrote: »

So headed out tonight for a session...just like any other Wednesday night!

Small difference was instead of a nice warm public house with an open fire, it was a cold, wet and windy Kilkenny ring road!! :eek:

It is actually the first time since I started training for DCM that I got soaked on a run! Suprised I lasted this long, had been lucky up to now where the most i had ever been caught in was a small shower or drizzle! Felt good I must say running in a downpour!! I seem to like running in the rain!

Seeing as I put a little wager on with Santa Claus last night for Waterford I said I would put some focus on tonights run!

Anyway splits were:

8:25, 6:50, 6:47, 8:32, 6:46, 6:45, 8:38

Toughest was by far the 3rd mile, uphill, lashing rain in a head wind!! However, I had the wind behind me for the second rep so was much easier!

I have it easy now for the rest of the week and got my first 5k race on Sunday!!

Anything less than a sub 19 and meno is going to be so disappointed with you .

Great running, looking good for waterford.

tang1

Wheres the 5km Sunday??

iancairns

docjewel wrote: »

Meno has hit the nail on the head there.
If look back though any of the marathon novice threads over the years on any thread asking for advice,there will always be advice from the more elite/experienced runners on this thread advocating that slow running is essential for improvement.
Sometimes we have to experience the mistakes ourselves to see what what the mentors are actually telling us is correct.

Interesting. I found out recently the benefits to doing LSR's but your saying its also a benefit to do shortish (6-8) mile runs at a 9 min pace also?

blockic

tang1 wrote: »

Wheres the 5km Sunday??

Down home in the rebel county!

Reindeer Run in Fota Wildlife Park, There is a 10k as well but seeing as I never done a 5k I said I would sign up for that!

No idea what the course is like but it should be a bit of craic anyway! I won't be wearing the antlers though!

tang1

blockic wrote: »

Down home in the rebel county!

Reindeer Run in Fota Wildlife Park, There is a 10k as well but seeing as I never done a 5k I said I would sign up for that!

No idea what the course is like but it should be a bit of craic anyway! I won't be wearing the antlers though!

Any goal time in mind?? Surely sub 20 is a soft target, Meno will expect that at the very least i'd say:D

blockic

tang1 wrote: »

Any goal time in mind?? Surely sub 20 is a soft target, Meno will expect that at the very least i'd say:D

I'd be happy with sub 20 really, anything else would be a bonus! I'll go out at 6:30 a mile and see how I feel at halfway.

iancairns

blockic wrote: »

So headed out tonight for a session...just like any other Wednesday night!

Small difference was instead of a nice warm public house with an open fire, it was a cold, wet and windy Kilkenny ring road!! :eek:

It is actually the first time since I started training for DCM that I got soaked on a run! Suprised I lasted this long, had been lucky up to now where the most i had ever been caught in was a small shower or drizzle! Felt good I must say running in a downpour!! I seem to like running in the rain!

Seeing as I put a little wager on with Santa Claus last night for Waterford I said I would put some focus on tonights run!

Anyway splits were:

8:25, 6:50, 6:47, 8:32, 6:46, 6:45, 8:38

Toughest was by far the 3rd mile, uphill, lashing rain in a head wind!! However, I had the wind behind me for the second rep so was much easier!

I have it easy now for the rest of the week and got my first 5k race on Sunday!!

Is this interval training? Sorry noob question, just interested after doing first marathon.
Never tried LSR's or interval training.
Can do 10km in 41mins

So should I try same as this?
1 mile easy then 2 hard?

menoscemo

iancairns wrote: »

Interesting. I found out recently the benefits to doing LSR's but your saying its also a benefit to do shortish (6-8) mile runs at a 9 min pace also?

A structured plan will have hard days and easy days. On the hard days you run fast and on the easy days you run slow.....

blockic

iancairns wrote: »

Is this interval training? Sorry noob question, just interested after doing first marathon.
Never tried LSR's or interval training.
Can do 10km in 41mins

So should I try same as this?
1 mile easy then 2 hard?

Just following meno's plan he has laid out for us. You should jump on board!

See this week's plan here.

Steroo

Open Question, do you all spend as long stretching/warming up for a hard session as you might for a recover run... easy run? I'm always afraid to skip the long warm up/down... but when it's a 2 mile recovery run it takes longer than the run itself! But I've found it's good for avoiding the niggles I used to get. thanks

blockic

StephenRooney wrote: »

Open Question, do you all spend as long stretching/warming up for a hard session as you might for a recover run... easy run? I'm always afraid to skip the long warm up/down... but when it's a 2 mile recovery run it takes longer than the run itself! But I've found it's good for avoiding the niggles I used to get. thanks

Good question, would be interested in the feedback too. At the moment, I spend the same amount of time stretching before every run regardless if its 2m or 20m!

Mine consists of a couple of minutes jog and then about 5mins doing stretches. Vice versa then when cooling down.

Mr Slow

menoscemo wrote: »

I'd say you folks with doubts are likely to give yourselves a pleasant surprise if you give the race 100%.

+1 Whether you believe you can or you can't, you are right.;)

menoscemo

StephenRooney wrote: »

Open Question, do you all spend as long stretching/warming up for a hard session as you might for a recover run... easy run? I'm always afraid to skip the long warm up/down... but when it's a 2 mile recovery run it takes longer than the run itself! But I've found it's good for avoiding the niggles I used to get. thanks

Please don't take this as a definitive answer because I really don't stretch very much, never have. I generally just do a minute of general stretches after a run.

A recovery run is similar to a warmup in that the point of it is to loosen the legs up, I would have thought a few stretches afterwards would suffice???

For the sessions, always take a mile or two 'warm up' before doing the fast bits. Stop at this point and do some stretches if you like.

coalshed

StephenRooney wrote: »

Open Question, do you all spend as long stretching/warming up for a hard session as you might for a recover run... easy run? I'm always afraid to skip the long warm up/down... but when it's a 2 mile recovery run it takes longer than the run itself! But I've found it's good for avoiding the niggles I used to get. thanks

Confession time...I rarely stretch. For most of my runs this year I started and finished with 5 minutes of slow paced running.

coalshed

I did my 7 miles last night by way of a run home from work...which is conveniently just over 7 miles door-to-door.

The GPS on my phone has been broken so I've been estimating my distances and pace for the last while. However I was in or around the 7'30 pace for each of the 2 miles at HM pace intervals.

All in all it was a tough enough run as indicated by the fact that I got home 7 or 8 minutes quicker than I have done before, and it was great to arrive in the door from work having my exercise for the day already done.

I've just now taken delivery of an apparently previously used 'new phone' from Phone Cover - so I'll be back in measurement action soon.

Steroo

menoscemo wrote: »

Please don't take this as a definitive answer because I really don't stretch very much, never have. I generally just do a minute of general stretches after a run.

A recovery run is similar to a warmup in that the point of it is to loosen the legs up, I would have thought a few stretches afterwards would suffice???

For the sessions, always take a mile or two 'warm up' before doing the fast bits. Stop at this point and do some stretches if you like.

Yea I know it's whatever works for you etc.. horses for courses... I spend up to 20 mins stretching before I leave the house (mind you some of that is strengthening exercises/squats/core/pushups).. but for the recovery run I'm thinking just go out & go slow... but then again I find my calfs defo hate me when I don't stretch the life out of them. I usually only spend few mins afterwards walking/stretching. Thanks for all your feedback, it's interesting to see how we differ in this regard... i envy those who can get away with very little stretching!

miguelk

StephenRooney wrote: »

Yea I know it's whatever works for you etc.. horses for courses... I spend up to 20 mins stretching before I leave the house (mind you some of that is strengthening exercises/squats/core/pushups).. but for the recovery run I'm thinking just go out & go slow... but then again I find my calfs defo hate me when I don't stretch the life out of them. I usually only spend few mins afterwards walking/stretching. Thanks for all your feedback, it's interesting to see how we differ in this regard... i envy those who can get away with very little stretching!

On stretching before you leave the house - I would tend to do even a small bit of a jog before the pre-run stretch, anything at all to get the muscles a bit warmer.

It is much better than stretching a cold muscle as they won't stretch as easily when they are cold and you could do damage.

Even still my pre-run stretches aren't great to be honest but I put a bit more effort into the post run stretches and try to foam roll when i can.

Since we are doing "easy" runs I've got lazy at stretching and foam rolling and i had a torturous night loosening my calves out last night. And now I can feel my quads are tender so they're next for a going over, I've def gone backwards in this regard.

So ya, figure out what works but more importantly keep doing it!

Won't be stretching before my recovery run but will stretch after.

Attached the runners stretches also, its been posted a few times but for anyone who missed it.

So IMO Stephen you could do with a bit more stretching after the run, and doing a warm up run before the pre-run stretches.

career_move

I never stretch before any of my runs and only if there's nothing else to do before races. In training I do a slow first 10 minutes but I'm usually well warmed up anyway from mucking out stables I used to do stretches but I didn't find they helped and I think it may have caused some of the niggles I got. I don't stretch after either. BUT the last two nights I've done an hour of yoga/core stretches and my legs definitely feel much looser. Yesterday they felt the session and I thought I'd be stiff today but they're 100% thankfully

KillianByrne

I never stretch before runs - always a jog of anywhere between half or a full mile; depending on what is happening after (race, tempo training, interval etc)

Now, given I'm not so wrecked after training, I always stretch afterwards starting from my ankles / Achilles and work my way up the body with 30 sec stretch each side. Takes less than 10 mins including a one or two min really light jog.

coalshed

Maybe all us non-stretchers all stretch one leg really well and do some Compare and Contrast action?

KillianByrne

I'm not following Meno's plan but my own...

Interval done

1mile warm up then...
1 mile fast / half slow repeat times 4
warm down

Today's plan has my fast sectors at 9.37 and recovery at 11. I did them at ballpark 8.20 and 9.45 (total average for the 7.1 miles, including warm up & down was 8.59)

A couple of things from that...
1) There was a bit of HTFU to get up & run; its only rain you can dry your runners out afterwards. Thinking about it, today was only the third day I've done wet weather training. That make me happy.
2) 8.20 felt fairly comfortable, in fact I had to slow a little to that. I just couldn't do a 'fast' sector at 9.37 it felt stupid
3) I'm delighted that I found 8.20 to be manageable, even for just the 1mile sectors.

I know it is difficult to say without looking at my plan, but I presume I'm going to get benefit from running the intervals the way I did - going "too fast" isn't going to adversely affect things will it? I still do the easy & LSR's at the required pace.

Swim classes tonight, I want to add swimming to my week for a xtraining day and to prepare for a triathlon next year. looking forward to it!

menoscemo

KillianByrne wrote: »

I'm not following Meno's plan but my own...

Interval done

1mile warm up then...
1 mile fast / half slow repeat times 4
warm down

Today's plan has my fast sectors at 9.37 and recovery at 11. I did them at ballpark 8.20 and 9.45 (total average for the 7.1 miles, including warm up & down was 8.59)

A couple of things from that...
1) There was a bit of HTFU to get up & run; its only rain you can dry your runners out afterwards. Thinking about it, today was only the third day I've done wet weather training. That make me happy.
2) 8.20 felt fairly comfortable, in fact I had to slow a little to that. I just couldn't do a 'fast' sector at 9.37 it felt stupid
3) I'm delighted that I found 8.20 to be manageable, even for just the 1mile sectors.

I know it is difficult to say without looking at my plan, but I presume I'm going to get benefit from running the intervals the way I did - going "too fast" isn't going to adversely affect things will it? I still do the easy & LSR's at the required pace.

Swim classes tonight, I want to add swimming to my week for a xtraining day and to prepare for a triathlon next year. looking forward to it!

My Only question to you is whay did your plan say to do the 'fast' miles at 9:37 pace? Seems very slow to me given that your HM PB is 1:57??

dazza21ie

KillianByrne wrote: »

Swim classes tonight, I want to add swimming to my week for a xtraining day and to prepare for a triathlon next year. looking forward to it!

Kurt paces the 4:15 marathon group, Killian runs in 4:15 marathon group... Killian then wants to do a triathalon. Coincidence?:D

menoscemo

dazza21ie wrote: »

Kurt paces the 4:15 marathon group, Killian runs in 4:15 marathon group... Killian then wants to do a triathalon. Coincidence?:D

First off, I think 4:15 would be a very soft marathon target for you based on your training paces and shorter races. You didn't hit 4:15 in DCM because of endurance issues not because you didn't have the speed to do so. To Improve endurance issues you need to simply run more, build up strength in the legs, improve your aerobic base. This will be done over a long period of time, rather than in a few sessions.

Secondly 4 x 1mile with half mile rests is not a session suitable to an MP session. An MP session would be more continuous (e.g. 4 x 5k @MP or 10 miles at MP). 4 x 1mile is a good session but it should be done at more like 10k pace (similar to our 5 x 1k @ 10k pace from this week). That is likely why you found it impossible to run at 9:37 for a 'speed' session.
I would estimate that your 10k pace would be somewhere just south or 8 min/mile (50 minutes at the moment).
So yes you should do this type of session a fair bit faster. It should hurt a little. (I am basing this on the assumption that it is your only/main 'interval' session of the week?).
Like the others; I advise you to race Waterford HM flat out. This will give you an idea of current fitness. From there we can use McMillan calculator to determine what your paces should be for your various session.

menoscemo

Edit to say the above reply was for killian ^^^^^^

I didn't notice you replied on his behalf Dazza

dazza21ie

menoscemo wrote: »

Edit to say the above reply was for killian ^^^^^^

I didn't notice you replied on his behalf Dazza

Phew, was panacking hadn't even entered Waterford

First part of your reply would have been equally applicable to me anyway.

KillianByrne

Thanks for the reply Meno...

The plan I'm following is one from Runners World -from now (a couple of weeks ago actually) until Limerick marathon in May. I enter my last marathon time (4.30) and it works out in 27weeks I'll run 3.58 with 4days a week trunning, xtraining etcetc.

Most of the running about now is at 11min - it seeems to follow the rule that i'm building a lot of endurance in the legs, along with a tempo run and interval run included every few runs. I'm happy enough to stick with the plan, it does seem slow, but I'm learning that's a good thing!

My main concern was that my interval was too fast based on the slow nature of the plan but that can't be a bad thing. I will have to go fast at some stage.

I plan to push Waterford, and give it everything. If I make it cool, if not, I'll not be disappointed!