DCM 2012 Graduates - the next step

ncmc

I’m sorry about the way things turned out PM, I think you did the right thing getting that thread closed, not because I think you couldn’t do the job, but because I think the whole thread had taken on such a negative vibe and I feel it would have been very hard for you to do your job with the level of negativity being aimed at you.

I agree that one of the most annoying aspects was that people were attacking the plan, that has been the plan used with great success for 4 years, I don’t remember anyone criticising it last year. The plan is a good one for total beginners, as Dilbert said in an earlier post, any other plan would have scared me off before I even started. As it happened, I followed HH2 and that was fine, there was no issue with people doing different plans if they wanted. I still was able to avail of the support of the group. It seems to me that some of these ‘experts’ forget what it’s like to be a total novice runner, maybe only having finished the couch 2 5k or similar plan, most of them just want to get round the course and enjoy it and are not worried about time or progression until subsequent marathons.

Anyway, don’t let it get you down, you have so much more going on to be excited about at the moment. Best of luck with the new arrival next week, I bet Boards will be the last thing on your mind this time next week!

menoscemo

overpronator wrote: »

Quick question Meno (or any anyone eles for that matter!!), fast finish long runs aside, what would be the longest PMP midweek run you would do in a marathon buildup? Also, would it be a separate session to the midweek medium run or would it be built in? Cheers.

It would defintely count as the midweek MLR as well. I would do a few PMP midweek runs of about 10 miles (generally 13-14 miles in total with w/u + c/d)

If you could peak doing 13-14 miles at PMP you would be going well.

I don't really like adding in PMP miles to LSR's, I just don't seem to be able to cope well on tired legs with the change of pace. That said if you could run 20 or 22 miles with 10 @PMP it's a really great session.

blockic

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Also very disappointed with how the novice 2013 thread has started. I fear that if the mentor is changed now it could be difficult to get someone else to take it on for fear of their imperfections being publicly thrown in their face.

The way it's always been on Boards is that if you've a problem with a moderator decision then there are avenues for pursuing that discussion off-thread. PM's appointment was well-flagged and there was ample opportunity to challenge it quietly before the thread was started.

I support the practise of having a last-year novice mentor the next year novices and also the use of HH novice plans - anything much more I think would have turned me off last year. I also support the mentoring team and note that I probably had more interaction with Meno and other non-mentors last year than I had with Anne but she was always there to keep the thing on track and to give good advice. It never bothered me how fast she could run a marathon.

I'll say no more.

Couldn't of put it better myself Dilbert.

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

As Meno says - it is a tradition for a novice to run the novice thread. As I stated on thread at the time I wouldn't have considered myself best choice at all for the role doing it solo but I felt that (and still do) that a team of myself Blockic and career_move was the best outcome from last years group. We had a load of ideas like bringing you guys in on a weekly basis, posting up everyones "what I wish I'd known before I started" feedback from after the marathon etc, an evolved tracker and for the first time a plan that would cater for a wider range of novices, including an earlier start to help those coming off the couch to 5k etc and a schedule for higher calibre runners aiming for faster times. In short we were comfortable, we had the task in hand covered as best as any set of novices could. Of course a more experienced runner / non novice could do a better job and perhaps lessons are learned here for going forward.

I'm of course disappointed that those criticising could not see the team structure in place and more importantly that the concerns were not raised before the thread was started. The level of criticism even got as far as to criticise the plan as if following it was some kind of newbie mistake when the plan itself was not criticised in 4 years previously. As much as something can be stated as "nothing personal" but to get a stream of posts afterwards which were painting me in a very bad light (and worse still inaccurately stating my personal history) can't be taken as anything but personal by the person targetted.

I'm going to stop that here as I'm heading down the line of defending myself too much and I don't want to have this thread turn into a continuation of the argument. :pac: All I would like to state for the public record is that I didn't volunteer nor seek the appointment. When asked I accepted because I wanted to give something back to the community as I do with the spreadsheets etc for the support the community gave me last year and I felt I addressed any shortcomings I had for the role. As at this point my participation and continuing in the role would be counter productive for the community and I have therefore effectively resigned.

Thanks to everyone who supported me in the last few days both publically and by PM here and thanks to those who were man / woman enough to pm me personally with their thoughts even if those thoughts were not in support of me in the role itself.

PM,

Totally agree with you there, if the trust was put on us I believe we would have delivered the best Novice thread yet. However, the teams position has just become untenable at this stage so you took the right option.

At the end of the day the thread is for 2013 novices and if they don't feel the team as a whole would benefit them then it is their loss. Which is unfortunate as I believe they would have gained insightful information from all 3 of us.

Process needs to be completed changes as to how people are appointed as there are clearly flaws.

I would just like to thank you publicly for the work you have put in to date for the thread before it was even started, I know you wanted to give a lot back from the boards that have gave us so much over the last 12 months. I do appreciate it. 2013 novices won't know what they missed out on.

And from just being involved for the last couple of days in the thread with the pressure being put on us I can tell ye one thing, this role ain't easy folks!

Anyway it's best that we move on now. Onwards and Upwards!

ncmc

menoscemo wrote: »

It would defintely count as the midweek MLR as well. I would do a few PMP midweek runs of about 10 miles (generally 13-14 miles in total with w/u + c/d)

If you could peak doing 13-14 miles at PMP you would be going well.

I don't really like adding in PMP miles to LSR's, I just don't seem to be able to cope well on tired legs with the change of pace. That said if you could run 20 or 22 miles with 10 @PMP it's a really great session.

That’s good information Meno, I struggle with PMP miles in a LSR too, if I do the PMP miles at the end, then my legs are tired, if I do them in the middle, then I am constantly thinking of the amount of miles I still have to do and find that psychologically tough. I would much prefer my PMP miles in the MLR, because with W/U and C/D that would be your run done.

Is there any advantage to doing the PMP miles in the LSR (as prescribed in P&D) or would it be the same thing to do them in the midweek MLR?

menoscemo

ncmc wrote: »

Is there any advantage to doing the PMP miles in the LSR (as prescribed in P&D) or would it be the same thing to do them in the midweek MLR?

I think it is just as good to do them midweek. If i can run 12-13 miles continuously midweek at PMP and it feels sustainable then I know I am in a good place to hit goal.
LSRs with PMP are great too- don't get me wrong. If you can do them that's fantastic but if you don't quite manage to get up to PMP it is no reason to sweat (as long as you are hitting PMP midweek).

Laois_Man

As a novice hoping to complete DCM 2013 myself, all I'll say is thank you to PM, Blockic and career_move for advice given to me on the short lived thread....and I don't see any reason why all 3 of ye shouldn't be involved in the new novice thread when it kicks off. I would certainly still greatly value and appreciate all of your opinions (although it would be understandable if any of ye wanted nothing to do with it), and as I said on the thread itself, I don't give a monkey's what official title any advice giver on the thread has or hasn't got.

TRR

Dilbert75 wrote: »

Also very disappointed with how the novice 2013 thread has started. I fear that if the mentor is changed now it could be difficult to get someone else to take it on for fear of their imperfections being publicly thrown in their face.

The way it's always been on Boards is that if you've a problem with a moderator decision then there are avenues for pursuing that discussion off-thread. PM's appointment was well-flagged and there was ample opportunity to challenge it quietly before the thread was started.

I support the practise of having a last-year novice mentor the next year novices and also the use of HH novice plans - anything much more I think would have turned me off last year. I also support the mentoring team and note that I probably had more interaction with Meno and other non-mentors last year than I had with Anne but she was always there to keep the thing on track and to give good advice. It never bothered me how fast she could run a marathon.

I'll say no more.

Obviously I started all of this so I'd like to respond quickly.

Firstly, how fast someone has ran a marathon is irrelevant. The problem that arises is a credability one. Why should novices accept advice from a novice that refused to take advice last year.

Secondly, the plan wasn't attacked. People who ran it last year and previously said they found it light on miles so I highlighted this.

Thirdly, lets the main personality out of this. I don't know him but he based on virtual chat he seems to be a nice genuine bloke and I apologise for not doing this in private, I was surprised and posted before thinking about the fallut. However, lets assume you didn't know the poster but just seen the hard facts of what transpired last year. Would you be willing to follow him regardless? I'm going to get hammered on this either way. I didn't see any of the other threads regards who was going to become a mentor so I didn't comment earlier. I laugh when people refer to some of the more experienced runners as "superstars", we are all joggers here in the grand scheme of things. I was once a novice too you know, I may run a little faster than I use to but I'm constantly learning and have mentors myself. These are guys who have either been there done that themselves or have been involved with many people who have in the past.

Gavlor

menoscemo wrote: »

I think it is just as good to do them midweek. If i can run 12-13 miles continuously midweek at PMP and it feels sustainable then I know I am in a good place to hit goal.
LSRs with PMP are great too- don't get me wrong. If you can do them that's fantastic but if you don't quite manage to get up to PMP it is no reason to sweat (as long as you are hitting PMP midweek).

I'm glad to hear that piece about 12-13 miles pmp being a good indicator. I'm going through a bit of a doubting phase due to missing quite a few runs. The only positive is that I'm happy with the quality of the sessions that I am getting in

Kurt Godel

I don't think you should abandon the idea of mentoring as a team so quickly. As far as I can see, no-one had any issue with the team aspect, the issue is with PM assuming "head mentor" role, and giving running advice, when he's not even completed the HH program, and messed up last year when he was stubborn and took no advice. He's probably great at motivating, is obviously personable, and can do spreadsheets; but doesn't seem content to do just that (judging by his comments on people's training on the thread). This issue may have been his initial wording- he calls himself the manager, the head mentor, and thats whats worrying (some) people. They are the credentials people are calling into question. On a thread that will be about advice to newbies, its a bad idea to have anyone with such limited credentials giving their opinion on peoples running program, while wearing a mentor hat.

You can debate that point if you wish (or even where it should be best aired), but the team aspect you had- right down to those additions and spreadsheets PM talked about- no reason that can't still work. But to fix it (IMO), continue as a team, but define the roles better, so its crystal clear the ones giving running advice are Blockic and CM (the one's who completed the program last year), and PM can be a motivator/spreadsheets. Or some other fix. The "us and them" mentality suggested by some is spurious, everyone who posted on the thread has the common wish of seeing as many newbies get as much out of the DM as their ability allows them. Elitism should just mean wanting to improve, regardless of your level. Criticism is meant to be constructive, and is best aired for all to see (anyone who messaged me I told to post on forum). Nothing to stop anyone responding to that criticism as they see fit, but pulling the rug altogether seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Pacing Mule

TRR wrote: »

Obviously I started all of this so I'd like to respond quickly.

Firstly, how fast someone has ran a marathon is irrelevant. The problem that arises is a credability one. Why should novices accept advice from a novice that refused to take advice last year.

Secondly, the plan wasn't attacked. People who ran it last year and previously said they found it light on miles so I highlighted this.

Thirdly, lets the main personality out of this. I don't know him but he based on virtual chat he seems to be a nice genuine bloke and I apologise for not doing this in private, I was surprised and posted before thinking about the fallut. However, lets assume you didn't know the poster but just seen the hard facts of what transpired last year. Would you be willing to follow him regardless? I'm going to get hammered on this either way. I didn't see any of the other threads regards who was going to become a mentor so I didn't comment earlier. I laugh when people refer to some of the more experienced runners as "superstars", we are all joggers here in the grand scheme of things. I was once a novice too you know, I may run a little faster than I use to but I'm constantly learning and have mentors myself. These are guys who have either been there done that themselves or have been involved with many people who have in the past.

Apology accepted TRR - I really wish your concerns had been raised in advance or off thread but thank you for your apology.

But again the issue being all you saw / see is me - not the team that was running this. In hindsight it would have been much better for blockic to do the OP and mention me as one of the helpers. I don't think it would have caused so much grief.

And also the point is being missed that the mentor for the thread was chosen from within the previous years thread participants. What better people to judge what someone can bring to the table than those who actually do know the person, have seen them in action and of course knew their exact story ?

menoscemo

I am in a difficult position being close to the 2012 guys but at the same stage I have and am active in the forum outside of here.

In a nutshell i agree 90% with what TRR and Kurt are saying. Maybe I could criticise the way they have gone about it but but the essence of their criticisms/ suggestions are really correct and this is a public forum so they are right to air their concerns.

I guess a lot of you need to step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kurt and TRR are only expressing what 90% of the forum outside of this group are thinking, maybe others are too polite to air that in public but they are thining it.

I also think you should read what ososlo wrote in the new thread yesterday. This in a nutshell is the worry, that a person like her feel uncomfortable in a thread designed for people like her. I can already feel a certain resentment building for ososlo which is entirely wrong; you really need to think before resenting or criticising her post. Remember the thread was designed for 2013 novices not the 2012 graduates and it is really important not to forget that point.

Pacing Mule

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I don't think you should abandon the idea of mentoring as a team so quickly. As far as I can see, no-one had any issue with the team aspect, the issue is with PM assuming "head mentor" role, and giving running advice, when he's not even completed the HH program, and messed up last year when he was stubborn and took no advice. He's probably great at motivating, is obviously personable, and can do spreadsheets; but doesn't seem content to do just that (judging by his comments on people's training on the thread). This issue may have been his initial wording- he calls himself the manager, the head mentor, and thats whats worrying (some) people. They are the credentials people are calling into question. On a thread that will be about advice to newbies, its a bad idea to have anyone with such limited credentials giving their opinion on peoples running program, while wearing a mentor hat.

You can debate that point if you wish (or even where it should be best aired), but the team aspect you had- right down to those additions and spreadsheets PM talked about- no reason that can't still work. But to fix it (IMO), continue as a team, but define the roles better, so its crystal clear the ones giving running advice are Blockic and CM (the one's who completed the program last year), and PM can be a motivator/spreadsheets. Or some other fix. The "us and them" mentality suggested by some is spurious, everyone who posted on the thread has the common wish of seeing as many newbies get as much out of the DM as their ability allows them. Elitism should just mean wanting to improve, regardless of your level. Criticism is meant to be constructive, and is best aired for all to see (anyone who messaged me I told to post on forum). Nothing to stop anyone responding to that criticism as they see fit, but pulling the rug altogether seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Hi Kurt,

My post above crossed with yours. Yes in hindsight the language used in the OP didn't put across the team aspect of the project which was a mistake on my part.

The only "advice" I gave consisted of telling Laois_Man he was capable of doing the marathon and seperately advising him of Hal Higdons half marathon plan and pointing out that he could drop into that 5 weeks in considering his current base. It was a very simple input to a reasonably simple question and was not out of order or place at all IMO. You will notice that when HelenAnne posted about LSR's and paces etc I left that to Blockic to answer. But perhaps you are right - any thoughts I give would be scrutinised too much or given false weight too and again that's an issue.

Pulling the rug altogether isn't throwing the baby out the bathwater. We asked for support as a team to move forward and there was strong resistance to that. Particularly if I'm the focal point for that lack of support then it's best for me to bow out completely - delete my thread and get me off the ticket as such. I've already said to both Blockic and career_move that I have no problem with them going forward by themselves or together.

ncmc

I think this needs to be put to bed at this stage, PM has decided not to go ahead as mentor. I think there were fair points made on all sides, I don’t think there should be any resentment or bad feeling, this is a public forum after all and it would be a pretty boring place if everyone agreed!

I think at this stage, we should pick a new mentor and start a new thread in a couple of weeks and just put all this behind us. As Meno said, this is about the novices of 2013 not the graduates of 2012 and I think the more we re-hash the issue, the more likely we are to scare novices off!

Pacing Mule

menoscemo wrote: »

I also think you should read what ososlo wrote in the new thread yesterday. This in a nutshell is the worry, that a person like her feel uncomfortable in a thread designed for people like her. I can already feel a certain resentment building for ososlo which is entirely wrong; you really need to think before resenting or criticising her post. Remember the thread was designed for 2013 novices not the 2012 graduates and it is really important not to forget that point.

Just want to endorse this part of the post completely.

davemcmahon

menoscemo wrote: »

I am in a difficult position being close to the 2012 guys but at the same stage I have and am active in the forum outside of here.

In a nutshell i agree 90% with what TRR and Kurt are saying. Maybe I could criticise the way they have gone about it but but the essence of their criticisms/ suggestions are really correct and this is a public forum so they are right to air their concerns.

I guess a lot of you need to step back and look at the bigger picture here. Kurt and TRR are only expressing what 90% of the forum outside of this group are thinking, maybe others are too polite to air that in public but they are thining it.

I also think you should read what ososlo wrote in the new thread yesterday. This in a nutshell is the worry, that a person like her feel uncomfortable in a thread designed for people like her. I can already feel a certain resentment building for ososlo which is entirely wrong; you really need to think before resenting or criticising her post. Remember the thread was designed for 2013 novices not the 2012 graduates and it is really important not to forget that point.

i know we all want to put this to bed, but I just wanted to add that I agree with the issues raised by TRR, Kurt and DrQuirky. I also think Ososlo managed to get across the issues in the best and most concise way. I agreed fully with her and pm'd her yesterday after her post to say so. This will be their first DCM not ours so we need to make sure they have the best possible support structure in place and that the legacy of the Novice threads isn't negatively affected by the last couple of days.

Runchick

And on a completely different note...I need to brain dump...can I ask if anyone has missed around 10 days marathon training due to illness and how they approached their return to training? I have had a flu-like virus since last Friday, will finish an antibiotic on Sunday and reckon I'll be ready to put a few miles back in then. I was going to run a HM next weekend but know I won't be ready so I'm going to sign up for the Omagh HM the following week instead. So do I pick up the P&D training plan where I left off and do what should have been last week's plan this coming week (assuming I'm back to 100% of course). Or do I jump back in and skip last week's sessions altogether? Its only 7 weeks :eek: until Limerick marathon and I really felt I was making good progress with training. I don't want to balls things up now

nerraw1111

Hi RC,

If you're following the P&D plan, there is a section in the book on what to do if you missed a few days during the plan.

From what I can remember and open to correction on this, the advice is to continue from where you should be in the plan and forget about the sessions you missed. I can check the book later tonight.

Again, open to correction, but I think P&D said you're still good for your target if you miss 10 days. I think if you miss 15 or more, he suggests adjusting your goal time.

There's a chart in the book saying what you should do if you miss 5/10/15 days etc

ecoli

I haven't posted publicly on this the last few days but rest assure the mods are not just sitting back on this one (as has been indicated by some people). We are looking into the best possible way forward for all involved at the moment and aim to have a speedy and suitable resolution in the next few days.

In the mean time it is probably best to not have this issue sprawl over into other logs such as this one and PM's personal one

blockic

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Again, open to correction, but I think P&D said you're still good for your target if you miss 10 days. I think if you miss 15 or more, he suggests adjusting your goal time.

Yep, you are on the ball there.

Runchick

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Hi RC,

If you're following the P&D plan, there is a section in the book on what to do if you missed a few days during the plan.

From what I can remember and open to correction on this, the advice is to continue from where you should be in the plan and forget about the sessions you missed. I can check the book later tonight.

Again, open to correction, but I think P&D said you're still good for your target if you miss 10 days. I think if you miss 15 or more, he suggests adjusting your goal time.

There's a chart in the book saying what you should do if you miss 5/10/15 days etc

Thanks nerraw1111 the book does say if its within 8 weeks to repeat the missed sessions as they all build from one to the next. I suppose my problem with this is obviously I'll get to a point where I'm a week short so will have to skip something either now or later. I was just hoping someone else out there had been in the same situation and could share what worked best for them. I'm already concerned about how heavy the taper seems in P&D and personally think I'll adjust it down a bit also. I suppose in the scheme of things as long as I get over the flu, get back training and continue to improve, that's as much as I can do...putting it in black and white clarifies things a bit...thanks for the sounding board

ncmc

I think I'm going to cut a few miles from the taper too Runchick, it seems very heavy on miles, I'd imagine being tired at the start line if I follow it.

Is there a big difference between the week you missed and the week you're due to do? Maybe you could do a mix of the two weeks, try not to worry about it, 7 weeks is loads of time!

blockic

Runchick wrote: »

Thanks nerraw1111 the book does say if its within 8 weeks to repeat the missed sessions as they all build from one to the next. I suppose my problem with this is obviously I'll get to a point where I'm a week short so will have to skip something either now or later. I was just hoping someone else out there had been in the same situation and could share what worked best for them. I'm already concerned about how heavy the taper seems in P&D and personally think I'll adjust it down a bit also. I suppose in the scheme of things as long as I get over the flu, get back training and continue to improve, that's as much as I can do...putting it in black and white clarifies things a bit...thanks for the sounding board

I missed a couple of my V02 runs due to it being after my HM etc. So I changed them slightly, they so up as far as 1600 in the plan, but I'm only going to be going up to 1200 or 1400m intervals on them now.

I don't have my plan with me, but I do recall cutting the 1600 one and then working back to the 800m I was currently at, putting in step back weeks of 600m intervals every 3 weeks if I recall. You can adjust it fairly handily I would expect.

Murph_D

ncmc wrote: »

I think I'm going to cut a few miles from the taper too Runchick, it seems very heavy on miles, I'd imagine being tired at the start line if I follow it

This could well be the earliest incidence of taper madness I've seen yet!

Runchick

ncmc wrote: »

I think I'm going to cut a few miles from the taper too Runchick, it seems very heavy on miles, I'd imagine being tired at the start line if I follow it.

Is there a big difference between the week you missed and the week you're due to do? Maybe you could do a mix of the two weeks, try not to worry about it, 7 weeks is loads of time!

The week I'm missing is the highest mileage week but also the last week with a session with miles at HMP, so obviously with a HM coming up I really want to do this session. I think I'll do this week again and readjust things further down the line All those V02 sessions ahead will have to be culled :P

Runchick

blockic wrote: »

I missed a couple of my V02 runs due to it being after my HM etc. So I changed them slightly, they so up as far as 1600 in the plan, but I'm only going to be going up to 1200 or 1400m intervals on them now.

I don't have my plan with me, but I do recall cutting the 1600 one and then working back to the 800m I was currently at, putting in step back weeks of 600m intervals every 3 weeks if I recall. You can adjust it fairly handily I would expect.

Great advice there as usual Blockic, leaving out the 1600 one..I like your style

ncmc

Runchick wrote: »

The week I'm missing is the highest mileage week but also the last week with a session with miles at HMP, so obviously with a HM coming up I really want to do this session. I think I'll do this week again and readjust things further down the line All those V02 sessions ahead will have to be culled :P

I think that's a good call, the highest mileage week and also it being the last session with pmp sounds like it's one you don't want to miss. Personally I'd rather miss a V02 session than a pmp session.

ncmc

murphd77 wrote: »

This could well be the earliest incidence of taper madness I've seen yet!

I think Blockic had some taper madness way back, so I think that crown belongs to him!

Actually that's a point about the taper madness, the miles are still so high in P&D, I can't envision having any taper madness!

RunningKing

blockic wrote: »

I don't have my plan with me, but I do recall cutting the 1600 one

wheres the dedication.

Dont have the plan with you
should be ingrained in your brain - or at least on your phone.

Cutting the 1600
Easy option...slacker. :pac:

blockic

RunningKing wrote: »

Cutting the 1600
Easy option...slacker. :pac:

After the 1000m one there Tuesday :eek: I was only too delighted to slash it!

docjewel

Had hoped to do a 20 mile run this morning with an 11 miler for Sunday morning but due to a major f^*k up on my behalf I had read my wifes timetable incorrectly so only had time for a fast(fast for my legs anyway:D) 5 miles this morning & am now left with trying to get the 11 miler in early (will have to be a 6am start) tomorrow & the 20 miler early again Sunday morning as we have family commitments from about 11am onwards.

Looking forward to Monday now as it is gonna be a rest day(wife working & the kids have no school) so a guaranteed lie in is on the cards:P