Voter suppression and fraud thread

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

I see. The problem is people don't know an election is ever coming up?

No silly, the fact that any number of technicalities seem to only be caught by election boards against black voters right before the deadlines ahead of critical votes.

But sure, you know my position: if ID is free and widely and readily accessible I'm OK with it. Most judicial boards are OK with it as long as it actually stops a significant problem. It would mean registrations are largely pointless, and who cares if a PT registration worker signs up Biggus Dickus to vote since he won't have ID when he goes to the poll right?

vetinari

The presumed aim in any self respecting representative democracy is to get as many of the eligible voters to vote as possible.
Partisan attempts to disenfranchise voters "for the other side" are patently undemocratic.
It's a disgusting way to try to win an election. These voter ID laws are clearly aimed at stopping certain voters from voting.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

No silly, the fact that any number of technicalities seem to only be caught by election boards against black voters right before the deadlines ahead of critical votes.

But sure, you know my position: if ID is free and widely and readily accessible I'm OK with it. Most judicial boards are OK with it as long as it actually stops a significant problem. It would mean registrations are largely pointless, and who cares if a PT registration worker signs up Biggus Dickus to vote since he won't have ID when he goes to the poll right?

Is ID free to obtain Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid and Food Stamps (ignoring illegal aliens who seem to get a pass on ID requirements to receive some of they programs)?

Amerika

vetinari wrote: »

The presumed aim in any self respecting representative democracy is to get as many of the eligible voters to vote as possible.
Partisan attempts to disenfranchise voters "for the other side" are patently undemocratic.
It's a disgusting way to try to win an election. These voter ID laws are clearly aimed at stopping certain voters from voting.

I agree. Voter ID laws are aimed at stopping those who wish to commit voter fraud.

vetinari

Way to deliberately misinterpret my comment, it's aimed at stopping large amounts of eligible votes from voting

oscarBravo

Amerika wrote: »

I think it’s apparent that voter fraud primarily helps democrats...

That's because you've carefully ignored the oft-repeated fact that voter fraud, to a useful approximation, doesn't exist.

There is only one reason that voter ID laws keep being introduced by Republican administrations, and that those laws are carefully targeted at minorities: they are explicitly designed to suppress lawful votes that would likely go against those same Republican administrations.

The idea of a government selectively disenfranchising people who are likely to vote for its opponents is disgraceful to anyone who claims to have a shred of respect for democracy. The fact that GOP supporters keep repeating lies about voter fraud demonstrates that they only respect democracy when it works in their favour - which is to say, they have no respect for democracy.

Amerika

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's because you've carefully ignored the oft-repeated fact that voter fraud, to a useful approximation, doesn't exist.

There is only one reason that voter ID laws keep being introduced by Republican administrations, and that those laws are carefully targeted at minorities: they are explicitly designed to suppress lawful votes that would likely go against those same Republican administrations.

The idea of a government selectively disenfranchising people who are likely to vote for its opponents is disgraceful to anyone who claims to have a shred of respect for democracy. The fact that GOP supporters keep repeating lies about voter fraud demonstrates that they only respect democracy when it works in their favour - which is to say, they have no respect for democracy.

You need a valid ID to prove your identity in order to vote? Shock, horror! Oh, those evil republicans?

There is an endless range of activities for which a photo ID is required.

Has anyone here ever considered it seems extremely unlikely that there are tons of people who honestly cannot get government IDs AND vote in elections? Then consider... Okay, if you can’t even go through the simple process of getting yourself some form of government ID, WHAT wherewithal do you have in order to go register a few months before an election, and HOW do you then go to your local polling place and vote on election day?

Come on people... use your heads... the argument against Voter ID is simply ridiculous.

Quin_Dub

Voter ID is fine , but it's the silly buggers played by certain state/county level administrations that people rightly rail against- and often the only Federal level solution is to remove the requirement for ID at all , which is to a certain extent cutting off the leg to cure a broken toe..

A new study by the Brennan Center provides a comprehensive look at the difficulties faced by individuals who lack the proper government photo identification to cast a ballot in ten different states: Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Wisconsin.

Those of us who have become habituated to having to show our papers in order to complete the most mundane everyday tasks, such as entering a building, may find it hard to believe that there are many individuals who lack such identification. Yet this is the case for no less than 11% of eligible voters.

Among certain demographics, the percentage is even higher. According to the Brennan Center study, 25% of African Americans, 16% of Hispanics and 18% of senior citizens lack government issued photo identification.

It stands to reason that individuals who do not have a photo ID such as a driver’s license probably also do not have a car, making it much more difficult and time-consuming to make one’s way to a government ID-issuing office.

In the ten states considered by the study, it was found that more than 10 million eligible voters, including 1.2 million below the poverty line, live more than ten miles from the nearest government office that issues identification. Of these individuals, nearly 500,000 do not have access to their own vehicle, forcing them to rely on others or on public transportation to visit a government office to obtain their photo identification.

To obtain that identification, the state office must of course be open. The Brennan Center found that many ID-issuing offices have highly restricted or irregular hours of operation.

In Wisconsin, Alabama and Mississippi, less than half are open five days a week. No such offices are open on Saturdays in Alabama, Kansas, Mississippi, Texas and Wisconsin. And none are open on Sunday in any of the ten states considered in the study.

The study also found evidence of absurdly “idiosyncratic” hours of operation. The office in Sauk City, Wisconsin, for instance, is only open on the fifth Wednesday of any month, which means that it is only open five days a year. Offices in other states were found to be open just one day a month.

Supporters of voter ID laws claim such regulations are necessary to protect against widespread voter fraud. In the end, they may do nothing more than protect against widespread voter registration.

Overheal

"Sorry your address on your ID and your registration ID don't match." having to update your address on both can be a hassle when the officiating place to do so is inaccessible 360 days of the year for example. And who might have to move around often? Poor people. I moved 3 times in 2014 for instance.

oscarBravo

Amerika wrote: »

You need a valid ID to prove your identity in order to vote? Shock, horror! Oh, those evil republicans?

You're still doing it. You're regurgitating GOP talking points when you should be pissed off that people in a position of power are abusing that power to disenfranchise people.

For the record: if I heard that a DNC-controlled state legislature was going out of its way to disenfranchise GOP voters, I would decry that behaviour in the strongest terms, because I dislike much of what the GOP stands for, but goddammit, people have the right to vote stupid if that's what they feel the need to do.

If you're arguing that it's OK to make it more difficult for poor people to vote, quite frankly you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

FISMA.

Overheal wrote: »

...conservative administrations wanted to allow their states to allow gun permits as ID, but not student IDs.

Understandable.

A sample of various State requirements for gun licensees:

1) Licensees be fingerprinted and have thumbprint on license.
2) Social security number printed on license.
3) Federal Agency vetting of the licensee, such as that of the ATF
4) State Police checks.
5) Local Police checks.
6) Mental health checks.
7) FBI checks, Federal NICS, and state NICS check
8) Prove good moral character.

Just to name a few.

As for College ID's, they pale in comparison to the security of gun licenses.

Overheal

FISMA. wrote: »

Understandable.

A sample of various State requirements for gun licensees:

1) Licensees be fingerprinted and have thumbprint on license.
2) Social security number printed on license.
3) Federal Agency vetting of the licensee, such as that of the ATF
4) State Police checks.
5) Local Police checks.
6) Mental health checks.
7) FBI checks, Federal NICS, and state NICS check
8) Prove good moral character.

Just to name a few.

As for College ID's, they pale in comparison to the security of gun licenses.

As you said those requirements are various. The primary aim for voting purposes is to verify the identity of the person present. A student ID is produced by an education body when they are enrolled and their identity has been verified.

Peregrinus

FISMA. wrote: »

Understandable.

A sample of various State requirements for gun licensees:

1) Licensees be fingerprinted and have thumbprint on license.
2) Social security number printed on license.
3) Federal Agency vetting of the licensee, such as that of the ATF
4) State Police checks.
5) Local Police checks.
6) Mental health checks.
7) FBI checks, Federal NICS, and state NICS check
8) Prove good moral character.

Just to name a few.

As for College ID's, they pale in comparison to the security of gun licenses.

But unless you can make a case for saying that all that level of scrutiny and security is necessary for voter identification (you're not allowed to vote if you haven't proved "good moral character"? Seriously?), the fact that gun licences are attended with all this scrutiny while student IDs are not is no reason not to accept student IDs.

If the government is going to make possession of satisfactory ID a condition o voting, then the government has to ensure that a satisfactory ID is readily available to every person entitled to vote - they don't have to pay to get it, they don't have to take time off work to get it, they don't have to travel significant distances to get it, they don't have to queue for hours to get it, they don't have to do absurd and unnecessary things to get it.

If those who are calling for voter ID to be required are not first of all ensuring that voter ID is readily available not just to the ordinary voter but to every voter, then their claims to be protecting the integrity of the democratic process are nothing but the rankest hypocrisy. Just sayin'.

Amerika

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're still doing it. You're regurgitating GOP talking points when you should be pissed off that people in a position of power are abusing that power to disenfranchise people.

For the record: if I heard that a DNC-controlled state legislature was going out of its way to disenfranchise GOP voters, I would decry that behaviour in the strongest terms, because I dislike much of what the GOP stands for, but goddammit, people have the right to vote stupid if that's what they feel the need to do.

If you're arguing that it's OK to make it more difficult for poor people to vote, quite frankly you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

I look rather well, thank you very much. The majority of people in my state voted to require valid ID’s in order to vote. I remember with the lead-up to the vote a number of high ranking Republicans made the public offer that if anyone was unable to get somewhere to get a valid ID in order to vote they could contact their offices and their staff would assist them, free-of-charge, to get what they needed. I think you can count on one hand the number of people who responded to accept the offer. Some idiotic Commonwealth court judge then defied the will of the people and ruled the Pennsylvania voter ID law violates the state constitution by imposing an unreasonable burden on voters. That judge smartly decided to retire when his tenure was up. The state GOP did not appeal the decision, and that failure was in part to blame why voters didn’t reelect the GOP governor. I think, once all the voter fraud reports again come out of Philadelphia this election the call for an appeal to the ruling will heat up again.

Overheal

NC's Jim Crow laws now under federal scruitny

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/03/federal_judge_slams_north_carolina_voter_purge.html

also this:

Garry Terry, the chairman of the Republican Party for North Carolina’s First Congressional District, sent an email on Aug. 13 to elections board members in his region, reminding them to act "in the best interest of the Republican Party" by opposing Sunday voting and restricting early voting to one location.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-northcarolina-insight-idUSKBN12Y0ZY

FISMA.

Peregrinus wrote: »

(you're not allowed to vote if you haven't proved "good moral character"? Seriously?),

Did you read the post? Please try reading the post as your assertions are unfounded.

Overheal wrote: »

...conservative administrations wanted to allow their states to allow gun permits as ID, but not student IDs. Which given the two party politics of the era, is a bit on the nose..

I understand why a gun permit would be acceptable but a College ID would not and disagree with Overheal's "party politics" conclusion.

Most importantly, millions of people that go to college are not entitled to vote: foreign students, green card holders, and illegal immigrants for example.

Overheal wrote: »

In one situation or two, conservative administrations..

If Overheal would care to make known either of the "situations" quoted, we could have more clarity on the details of the matter.

Overheal

Oregon Trail remake for the Jim Crow era

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/01/opinion/voting-suppression-videogame.html?_r=1

dwayneshintzy

Amerika wrote: »

I think, once all the voter fraud reports again come out of Philadelphia this election the call for an appeal to the ruling will heat up again.

And if (once again) there is no proof of voter fraud being committed, will you admit that it most likely didn't happen? And never has?

Or will it simply be a cover up?

Amerika

dwayneshintzy wrote: »

And if (once again) there is no proof of voter fraud being committed, will you admit that it most likely didn't happen? And never has?

Or will it simply be a cover up?

Remember the New Black Panther voter intimidation incident in Philadelphia, that Obama's DOJ refused to prosecute? Remember in 59 Philadelphia voting divisions where Mitt Romney got zero votes?

It did happen and I predict it will happen again.

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Remember the New Black Panther voter intimidation incident in Philadelphia, that Obama's DOJ refused to prosecute? Remember in 59 Philadelphia voting divisions where Mitt Romney got zero votes?

It did happen and I predict it will happen again.

On the 59 divisions: http://www.politifact.com/pennsylvania/statements/2016/aug/12/viral-image/internet-philly-rigged-2012-presidential-election-/

after Sean Hannity reiterated that 59 divisions with all-Obama votes showed signs of election rigging, a West Philadelphia elections inspector took to Twitter to debunk it. The key nugget in his explanation was this: Votes cannot be subtracted from Philadelphia voting machines. Republican City Commissioner Al Schmidt confirmed that was indeed the case. So, if anyone had voted Romney, there’s no way that vote could’ve been removed from the tally, which means if fraud had occurred, it would’ve had to have happened before the vote button was pushed.

It (voter fraud) didn't happen.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

On the 59 divisions: http://www.politifact.com/pennsylvania/statements/2016/aug/12/viral-image/internet-philly-rigged-2012-presidential-election-/



It (voter fraud) didn't happen.

The ruling on that matter was regarding the claim "(a) mathematical and statistical impossibility." I agree there is a mathematical possibility, just like there is a mathematical possibility that an asteroid will hit the earth next week and eradicate all life. Yes, Philadelphia is highly democratic, 20 Democrat to 1 Republican ratio on average, I believe. But ZERO votes for Romney? If you believe that I have a bridge leading into Brooklyn to sell you.

And the dead have a habit of voting in Philadelphia. Will the next argument be Voter ID laws unfairly disenfranchise zombies?

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

The ruling on that matter was regarding the claim "(a) mathematical and statistical impossibility." I agree there is a mathematical possibility, just like there is a mathematical possibility that an asteroid will hit the earth next week and eradicate all life. Yes, Philadelphia is highly democratic, 20 Democrat to 1 Republican ratio on average, I believe. But ZERO votes for Romney? If you believe that I have a bridge leading into Brooklyn to sell you.

And the dead have a habit of voting in Philadelphia. Will the next argument be Voter ID laws unfairly disenfranchise zombies?

No thoughts on the mechanisms ensuring people's votes, once cast, cannot be removed from a ballot in Philly? The mathematical argument isn't really relevant, if the accusation isn't actually supported by either evidence, or a definable mechanism for removing votes.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

No thoughts on the mechanisms ensuring people's votes, once cast, cannot be removed from a ballot in Philly? The mathematical argument isn't really relevant, if the accusation isn't actually supported by either evidence, or a definable mechanism for removing votes.

If you're concerned about people's votes being removed from a ballot in Philly (like votes for Romney), then you should be in support of stricter voting laws.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

If you're concerned about people's votes being removed from a ballot in Philly (like votes for Romney), then you should be in support of stricter voting laws.

That made zero sense: voter ID has nothing to do with no Romney votes being tallied in the machines.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

That made zero sense: voter ID has nothing to do with no Romney votes being tallied in the machines.

Why? We need better election security in all forms… from making sure the person voting is eligible to vote, and that their vote is counted correctly. Now with electronic voting machine we know the machines can be hacked. And only 60% of states routinely conduct audits post-election by checking paper trails.

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

If you're concerned about people's votes being removed from a ballot in Philly (like votes for Romney), then you should be in support of stricter voting laws.

I'm not concerned at all. Nobody is removing votes in Philly.

1,700 divisions in Philly. 59 of them (in massively Democrat orientated areas) didn't produce a vote for Romney. There isn't a means of pulling votes, once balloted. Any evidence of voter fraud at play? No, there's not.

I’m the chief executive of the Committee of Seventy, a nonpartisan, nonprofit good-government organization in Philadelphia formed by private-sector leaders in 1904 with a primary mission to protect and improve the voting process. I’ve lived in Philadelphia for more than 30 years. I also happen to be a son of Dick Thornburgh, a former Republican governor of Pennsylvania and U.S. attorney general under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. (For the record, I’m a registered independent.)

So I know what I’m talking about when I say that Trump’s charges are preposterous. They have no basis in fact, and they are dangerous and damaging to our democracy.

Trump has offered no evidence to support his claims, and it’s hard to beat nothing with something. But even if it won’t persuade him, for the sake of the rest of the country, let me review the reality of voting in Philadelphia...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/10/21/donald-trumps-conspiracy-theories-about-voting-in-philadelphia-are-preposterous/

Overheal

FISMA. wrote: »

I understand why a gun permit would be acceptable but a College ID would not and disagree with Overheal's "party politics" conclusion.

Most importantly, millions of people that go to college are not entitled to vote: foreign students, green card holders, and illegal immigrants for example.

Overheal regrets regrettably that Overheal could not respond to FISMA.'s post sooner because Overheal was not near a Personal Computer.

Overheal never made any party politics conclusion Overheal left that up to readers like FISMA. to decide for themselves.

Overheal is happy to point out that weapons and CCW permits are not restricted to US Citizens:

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/04/court-rules-legal-immigrants-can-carry-concealed-weapons/

In the New Mexico case, a federal court Monday enjoined the state’s law, saying that there is no compelling reason for the state to discriminate against noncitizens in the case of gun ownership.

“The citizenship requirement is overinclusive; it encompasses a large number of noncitizens who, by virtue of their status alone, pose no greater risk of harm to public safety,” Judge M. Christina Armijo wrote.

FISMA. himself even failed to acknowledge in his "good moral character" list, any requirement that the obtainment of such a license required citizenship, and therefore is just as dubious for this purpose as any College ID would be.

If Overheal would care to make known either of the "situations" quoted, we could have more clarity on the details of the matter.

Overheal is perplexed by FISMA.'s new heightened scrutiny on this established claim, one for which FISMA. previously called, "understandable." Overheal presumes that somewhere between 02-11-2016 20:58 EST and 03-11-2016 17:21 EST that this understanding somehow vanished. Fortunately Overheal would be happy to oblige using Overheal's prowess with the internet search engine, Google:

In 2011, Texas removed already-established use of Student IDs to vote, while simultaneously permitting the use of Gun Permits as a reasonable form of ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/texans-gun-permits-student-ids-voting_n_1095530.html

Which is the most infamous case where this occurred, the change in the law happening the summer prior to a crucial 2012 vote; however it's worth noting that the electoral map in Texas did not move an inch either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2012

Georgia is mixed on ID requirements for students with some seemingly fair caveats; Wisconsin even covered the cost of updating IDs to a heightened standard for this purpose: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/17/13332451-that-student-id-may-not-get-you-into-the-voting-booth

Overheal is glad to be of service.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Why? We need better election security in all forms… from making sure the person voting is eligible to vote, and that their vote is counted correctly. Now with electronic voting machine we know the machines can be hacked. And only 60% of states routinely conduct audits post-election by checking paper trails.

Please describe how an ID will prevent a ballot from being removed from a voting machine.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Please describe how an ID will prevent a ballot from being removed from a voting machine.

Those are two different subjects in the overall goal to make sure the voting system is valid. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

Gotta love Philadelphia… they love free stuff. So much of the state taxes go there to insure they pay less for their public services than the rest of us. No wonder they do what they can to insure a democratic rule.

And Philadelphia Commissioner Al Schmidt said just the other week that voter fraud indeed exists in Philadelphia.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-06/more-illegal-immigrant-voters-discovered-philly-just-tip-iceberg

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

And Philadelphia Commissioner Al Schmidt said just the other week that voter fraud indeed exists in Philadelphia.

Yes he did:

In the last two years, 10 Philadelphia residents have been indicted for voter fraud, Schmidt said. Eight of them pleaded guilty.

Such cases include voters being permitted by election workers to cast ballots for their spouses or a sick friend or relative, Schmidt said. But in one case, three election workers pleaded guilty to adding six votes at the end of Election Day.

No dead voting, no removal of votes. A very small number of instances where there's no indication of the sort of conspiracies that the GOP like's to talk up.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

Yes he did:


No dead voting, no removal of votes. A very small number of instances where there's no indication of the sort of conspiracies that the GOP like's to talk up.

Is it your contention that the low number of discovered fraud cases means that only that exact amount of voter fraud happened? If 100 people were cited for jaywalking in Philadelphia last year does that mean that only 100 people jaywalked? I’d bet it only indicates that a lack of enforcement is failing to reveal the bulk of the violations that is occurring, and the real number of cases is likely significantly higher than the number reported.

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Is it your contention that the low number of discovered fraud cases means that only that exact amount of voter fraud happened? If 100 people were cited for jaywalking in Philadelphia last year does that mean that only 100 people jaywalked? I’d bet it only indicates that a lack of enforcement is failing to reveal the bulk of the violations that is occurring, and the real number of cases is likely significantly higher than the number reported.

Jeez - quite the lineup of strawman arguments. You claimed that Commissioner Al Schmidt said voter fraud exists. He did, but it's of a manner and frequency at odds with the talking points you were rolling out.

Here's the commissioner's overview of the issue:

"If voter fraud was occurring in a widespread conspiracy to sway a presidential election it would have been the easiest thing to see."

“The real threat to the integrity of elections in Philadelphia isn’t voter fraud.”

“The real threat to the integrity of elections is irresponsible accusations that undermine confidence in the electoral process.”

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

Jeez - quite the lineup of strawman arguments. You claimed that Commissioner Al Schmidt said voter fraud exists. He did, but it's of a manner and frequency at odds with the talking points you were rolling out.

Here's the commissioner's overview of the issue:

He couldn't make himself look incompetent in an inability to deal effectively with voter fraud, now could he?

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

He couldn't make himself look incompetent in an inability to deal effectively with voter fraud, now could he?

That's your argument? And remind me where the evidence of voter fraud in Philly comes from again?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Is it your contention that the low number of discovered fraud cases means that only that exact amount of voter fraud happened? If 100 people were cited for jaywalking in Philadelphia last year does that mean that only 100 people jaywalked? I’d bet it only indicates that a lack of enforcement is failing to reveal the bulk of the violations that is occurring, and the real number of cases is likely significantly higher than the number reported.

So by your logic, Trump is rigging the election

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/donald-trump-supporter-iowa-arrested-voter-fraud-article-1.2850101

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/presidential/Trump-supporter-arrested-voter-fraud-polls-are-rigged.html

FISMA.

Overheal wrote: »

Overheal regrets regrettably that Overheal could not respond to FISMA.'s post sooner because Overheal was not near a Personal Computer.

Overheal never made any party politics conclusion Overheal left that up to readers like FISMA. to decide for themselves.

Overheal is happy to point out that weapons and CCW permits are not restricted to US Citizens:

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/04/court-rules-legal-immigrants-can-carry-concealed-weapons/

In the New Mexico case, a federal court Monday enjoined the state’s law, saying that there is no compelling reason for the state to discriminate against noncitizens in the case of gun ownership.

“The citizenship requirement is overinclusive; it encompasses a large number of noncitizens who, by virtue of their status alone, pose no greater risk of harm to public safety,” Judge M. Christina Armijo wrote.

FISMA. himself even failed to acknowledge in his "good moral character" list, any requirement that the obtainment of such a license required citizenship, and therefore is just as dubious for this purpose as any College ID would be.


Overheal is perplexed by FISMA.'s new heightened scrutiny on this established claim, one for which FISMA. previously called, "understandable." Overheal presumes that somewhere between 02-11-2016 20:58 EST and 03-11-2016 17:21 EST that this understanding somehow vanished. Fortunately Overheal would be happy to oblige using Overheal's prowess with the internet search engine, Google:

In 2011, Texas removed already-established use of Student IDs to vote, while simultaneously permitting the use of Gun Permits as a reasonable form of ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/texans-gun-permits-student-ids-voting_n_1095530.html

Which is the most infamous case where this occurred, the change in the law happening the summer prior to a crucial 2012 vote; however it's worth noting that the electoral map in Texas did not move an inch either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2012

Georgia is mixed on ID requirements for students with some seemingly fair caveats; Wisconsin even covered the cost of updating IDs to a heightened standard for this purpose: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/17/13332451-that-student-id-may-not-get-you-into-the-voting-booth

Overheal is glad to be of service.

Feel better?

Overheal

FISMA. wrote: »

Feel better?

Well I was right here didn't your mom tell you not to do that!

FISMA.

Overheal wrote: »

Overheal regrets regrettably that Overheal could not respond to FISMA.'s post sooner because Overheal was not near a Personal Computer.

Overheal never made any party politics conclusion Overheal left that up to readers like FISMA. to decide for themselves.

Overheal is happy to point out that weapons and CCW permits are not restricted to US Citizens:

http://www.amren.com/news/2013/04/court-rules-legal-immigrants-can-carry-concealed-weapons/

In the New Mexico case, a federal court Monday enjoined the state’s law, saying that there is no compelling reason for the state to discriminate against noncitizens in the case of gun ownership.

“The citizenship requirement is overinclusive; it encompasses a large number of noncitizens who, by virtue of their status alone, pose no greater risk of harm to public safety,” Judge M. Christina Armijo wrote.

FISMA. himself even failed to acknowledge in his "good moral character" list, any requirement that the obtainment of such a license required citizenship, and therefore is just as dubious for this purpose as any College ID would be.


Overheal is perplexed by FISMA.'s new heightened scrutiny on this established claim, one for which FISMA. previously called, "understandable." Overheal presumes that somewhere between 02-11-2016 20:58 EST and 03-11-2016 17:21 EST that this understanding somehow vanished. Fortunately Overheal would be happy to oblige using Overheal's prowess with the internet search engine, Google:

In 2011, Texas removed already-established use of Student IDs to vote, while simultaneously permitting the use of Gun Permits as a reasonable form of ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/texans-gun-permits-student-ids-voting_n_1095530.html

Which is the most infamous case where this occurred, the change in the law happening the summer prior to a crucial 2012 vote; however it's worth noting that the electoral map in Texas did not move an inch either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2008
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas,_2012

Georgia is mixed on ID requirements for students with some seemingly fair caveats; Wisconsin even covered the cost of updating IDs to a heightened standard for this purpose: http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/17/13332451-that-student-id-may-not-get-you-into-the-voting-booth

Overheal is glad to be of service.

No one said that ID should prove citizenship. Just that some ID's are better vetted than others.

An ID that has been checked at Local, State, and Federal levels supersedes a college ID.

Anyhow, back to what you were saying...

Overheal wrote: »

Well I was right here didn't your mom tell you not to do that!

Overheal

Hundreds of voting locations closed since 2012. Why?

https://www.thenation.com/article/there-are-868-fewer-places-to-vote-in-2016-because-the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act/

Annasopra

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

In Ireland you don't need ID to vote.

You do

Fr Tod Umptious

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You do

Correct, you need to be able to verify your identity if requested.

Most people don't get asked though.

ancapailldorcha

FISMA. wrote: »

Feel better?

Overheal wrote: »

Well I was right here didn't your mom tell you not to do that!

Enough of this.

Amerika

Looks like the Pennsylvania State Police are going after voter fraud in Philadelphia, ahead of the election... GOOD!

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/pennsylvania-state-police-raid-registration-offices-voter-fraud-sting/

Nody

Amerika wrote: »

Looks like the Pennsylvania State Police are going after voter fraud in Philadelphia, ahead of the election... GOOD!

http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/pennsylvania-state-police-raid-registration-offices-voter-fraud-sting/

And sorting out illegal vote removal in North Carolina by a Conservative support group.

Michael Hyers, an Air Force retiree from Fayetteville, North Carolina, has spent hours upon hours combing through records, cross-checking addresses and submitting thousands of challenges to voter registrations in an effort to purge voter rolls at the local Cumberland County elections board. He claims to have removed 6,000 people from voter rolls since 2014.

The challenges submitted by Hyers and his group, the Voter Integrity Project, a conservative organization that believes systemic voter fraud exists, became part of a federal lawsuit that accused officials in three North Carolina counties of illegal voter-roll purges that disproportionately targeted African-Americans.

The lawsuit, filed by the NAACP, garnered the attention of the Justice Department and independent elections-monitoring groups, and on Friday, a federal judge ordered the state and local boards to restore the purged voters.
Federal judge Loretta Biggs described the purges as a "flawed process" and specifically noted that one individual in Cumberland County -- where Hyers lives -- challenged the registration of approximately 4,000 local voters.
The North Carolina Board of Elections has no evidence the election will be affected by fraud, and in a statement to CNN, a spokesperson said the board works to ensure the integrity of the elections process by investigating allegations, conducting audits during the early voting period and working in partnership with the Department of Homeland Security.

Hotblack Desiato

Long, but good article here (Guardian, via the Irish Times)

Claims of ‘large-scale’ voter fraud raises fears of election day violence

BTW as already stated I wouldn't regard many of the forms of "ID" acceptable in Ireland for voting as ID, a bank card for instance. If I find Joe Bloggs' wallet on election morning and have a good idea which polling station he's registered at, does his bank card identify me?

Overheal

Line to vote early in Cincinnati today: half a mile long

http://www.vox.com/presidential-election/2016/11/6/13542680/there-are-4000-people-in-a-half-mile-voting-line-in-cincinnati-today-this-isn-t-ok

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Line to vote early in Cincinnati today: half a mile long

http://www.vox.com/presidential-election/2016/11/6/13542680/there-are-4000-people-in-a-half-mile-voting-line-in-cincinnati-today-this-isn-t-ok

I'm guessing if people would have had to show valid photo ID to vote, things would have gone much quicker.

8-10

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Long, but good article here (Guardian, via the Irish Times)

Claims of ‘large-scale’ voter fraud raises fears of election day violence

BTW as already stated I wouldn't regard many of the forms of "ID" acceptable in Ireland for voting as ID, a bank card for instance. If I find Joe Bloggs' wallet on election morning and have a good idea which polling station he's registered at, does his bank card identify me?

If I find someone's bank card and I want to do something suspect with it, it's not going to be voting!

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

I'm guessing if people would have had to show valid photo ID to vote, things would have gone much quicker.

How? Youre just not even trying anymore.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

How? Youre just not even trying anymore.

Things that are self evident don't need a whole lot of 'trying.'

Have you ever been to the DMV? I have had the unfortunate luck of spending many, many, many hours in the DMV as of late. Things go smooth when people have the proper information. What causes the bottlenecks? Improper information and ID... Yeah, you guessed it.

You have proper ID... go vote. You don't have proper ID, now we need to go through a whole series of time consuming procedures in order to allow you the opportunity to vote... Some things are just a matter of common sense.