Fernando Torres

SantryRed

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Under Rafa 09/10 - 18 goals 22 league games
Under Roy 2010 Sept - December - 6 goals 19 league games
Under Kenny 2011 January - 3 goals in 4 league games.


Of course his form didn't dip when Roy was manager, what a crazy suggestion.:pac:

The Dalglish one is pretty stupid in all fairness.

Chucky the tree

SantryRed wrote: »

The Dalglish one is pretty stupid in all fairness.

I wouldn't call facts stupid. Small sample size doesn't help, I suppose it could just be a big coincidence as well. What is stupid though, is claiming Torres was poor for 18 months or so before his move.

BetterCallSaul

kippy wrote: »

When Chelsea paid 50 million for his services to Liverpool I laughed at them, really I did, and I applauded Liverpool for getting so much money for an asset that had gone past its best. Probably the best transfer deal in history for the selling club, being honest.

It wasn't even the best transfer deal for the selling club on that day, never mind in history.

As bad as he's been, I'd say you would still find a club willing to pay a decent fee for his services again.

Lord Trollington

I don't buy into this notion that he has lost his explosive pace. They guy is only 28 for f*ck sake.

Physically he is at his peek for the next 3/4 years.

There are a number of factors at play here that has him in the mire he's in.

Injuries, being in and out of the Chelsea team, in and out of the Spanish squad the weight of expectation being a big part of it.

Since arriving in England he's been through 3 managers at Livepool and 3 at Chelsea. 6 managers in 5/6 years. No real continuity.

Majority of his problems are psychological. As a striker you need to be playing and full of confidence.

He's just not had that since his early days at Liverpool. You do not become a bad player over night.

As a LFC fan I'd love to see him back at Liverpool banging in the goals alongside Suarez and Stevie G. I'd take him back in the morning. But there is no such thing as romance in sport. Ask Robbie Fowler.

SantryRed

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I don't buy into this notion that he has lost his explosive pace. They guy is only 28 for f*ck sake.

Physically he is at his peek for the next 3/4 years.

Regardless of age, it's obvious he has lost his pace.

Oregano_State

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I don't buy into this notion that he has lost his explosive pace. They guy is only 28 for f*ck sake.

Physically he is at his peek for the next 3/4 years.

There are a number of factors at play here that has him in the mire he's in.

Injuries, being in and out of the Chelsea team, in and out of the Spanish squad the weight of expectation being a big part of it.

Since arriving in England he's been through 3 managers at Livepool and 3 at Chelsea. 6 managers in 5/6 years. No real continuity.

Majority of his problems are psychological. As a striker you need to be playing and full of confidence.

He's just not had that since his early days at Liverpool. You do not become a bad player over night.

As a LFC fan I'd love to see him back at Liverpool banging in the goals alongside Suarez and Stevie G. I'd take him back in the morning. But there is no such thing as romance in sport. Ask Robbie Fowler.

It is very possible for recurrant hamstring injuries to have an effect on pace, even if he's still in his peak years, and I think he has lost a bit of explosiveness over the first 5 meters.

I reckon he'll hit 15-20 EPL goals this season barring injury. He has looked good, but not amazing. Up until recently I thought he could get back to his best, but I'm not so sure now.

At the moment he's still a great player, but he's not up there with RVP, Falcao etc at the moment in terms of pure goal scoring and terrifying defenders.

I hope he can get back to where he was, but it's looking less likely with each passing week he doesn't bang a hat-trick from 4-5 chances like he was once well capable of.

Lord Trollington

SantryRed wrote: »

Regardless of age, it's obvious he has lost his pace.

I think you missed the point of my post.

He's 28. He's at his peak physically. You don't just completely lose your pace at that age, as i said there are much more factors at play here. If anything at his age he should be a much more clever footballer than he was 4/5 seasons ago.

He has the best nutritionists and physical trainers sports has to offer at Chelsea.
The pace he would have lost would be minimal if any at all.

Its a lazy bar stool cliche to suggest this is his problem.

He is still getting into positions and creating chances. Gone and long gone is the swagger in which he takes on those chances. You can see it in his body language every time he takes a shot that he's not confident.

I would say 90% of Torres problem is mental. Less than 10% is physical.

SantryRed

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I think you missed the point of my post. I can't dumb it down anymore unfortunately.

He's 28. He's at his peak physically. You don't just completely lose your pace at that age, as i said there are much more factors at play here. If anything at his age he should be a much more clever footballer than he was 4/5 seasons ago.

He has the best nutritionists and physical trainers sports has to offer at Chelsea.
The pace he would have lost would be minimal if any at all.

Its a lazy bar stool cliche to suggest this is his problem.

He is still getting into positions and creating chances. Gone and long gone is the swagger in which he takes on those chances. You can see it in his body language every time he takes a shot that he's not confident.

I would say 90% of Torres problem is mental. Less than 10% is physical.

Don't be so fcuking condescending to me.

It is blatantly obvious he has lost his pace. None of this mental/physical bollocks. Remember when he was a Liverpool and he'd just burn the centre half and slot the ball away, he can't even get away from them any more. Of course he's not confident like at Liverpool, but to say it's 10% physical is laughable.

Don't forget Torres had a few operations in 2010 and imo never looked as sharp after them.

GavRedKing

Torres HAS lost his blinding pace he had when he first came, that been said hes still fairly quick.

TBF as beens pointed out he has had a few injuries and operations so that would contribute to it.

He was always an intellegent footballer, his football brain is miles ahead of Sturridge and thats one of the reason hes playing week in week out. Hes often invovled in either an assist or the setting up the guy that eventually assists a goal, now he should be the one on the end of those passes/crosses but hes contributing to the team so I'm happy with himfor the time being.

When Torres was at his best Liverpool were lining up as a 4-4-1-1.

The system played brillliantly to his strengths tbf

Jayob10

Torres 2008 looked like a man who loved the physical nature of the premier league. I'll never forget his debut, he gave John Terry nightmares, got kicked around the place but kept bouncing back up looking for more. He was a nightmare for even the most physically gifted defenders.

He has definately lost that will and fight he had early in his Liverpool career. For 18 months before he left Liverpool you could see the change in him, in my opinion big promises were made to him to keep him there and they were never fulfilled. The Liverpool he signed for (up and coming side, 2 european cup finals in 3 years) was on the slide without ever having reached its potential, so he lost that desire when it was obvious he backed the wrong horse.

He really should have moved after the world cup in 2010 but I think there was a real weight of expectation on him and he felt a loyalty to the club and fans who idolised him. When it was apparent the sh*t was hitting the fan at Liverpool (and he wasn't going to swallow another "dawning of a new era" with King kenny) he took the first move to a champions league club that could afford him and saw it as his chance to win trophies.

People say it was in the offing that Suarez was being signed to partner Torres that january, and the club even maintain that I believe. But I reckon its a load of rubbish, the club were aware he was off.

In my eyes, he is still one of Liverpool's greatest strikers, has scored against all the great clubs and on his day he can claim to be the best since Rush in terms of doing it at the highest level.

I would be surprised if Atletico spend big money on him though if they sell Falcao. That is not their style, granted I could see him moving there if he was out of contract, but its obvious they will sign another young striker with excellent sell on value.

It will be interesting to see where he ends up, Chelsea need more from a centre forward if they want to be competing at the top end. His heart just doesn't seem to be in it.

joe123

At Chelsea he is being asked to be drogba lite. Benitez doesnt get half enough credit for making Torres who he was (not saying he wasnt an already quality footballer) but he built a system that suited him down to the ground.

joe123

Jayob10 wrote: »

I would be surprised if Atletico spend big money on him though if they sell Falcao. That is not their style, granted I could see him moving there if he was out of contract, but its obvious they will sign another young striker with excellent sell on value.

They spent 30 million on Falcao...

Jayob10

joe123 wrote: »

They spent 30 million on Falcao...

and they will probably get about 50 million at least for him

Torres will cost a fair chunk, but he won't have any sell on value for Atleti

niallo27

Neil3030 wrote: »

There's deluded, and there's LFC. Honest to christ... :rolleyes:

Why did this comment get so many thanks, the Spanish players seemed to have loved their time at liverpool, Alonso still checks the liverpool scores even when he is on the bench for Madrid, Garcia always has great things to say about, Rafa completely fell in love with the club, why is it so crazy to think Torres might still have a bit of love for the club.

The_Kew_Tour

Least he has 6 CL Medals anyway. Or so he thinks.:p

Leiva

niallo27 wrote: »

Why did this comment get so many thanks, the Spanish players seemed to have loved their time at liverpool, Alonso still checks the liverpool scores even when he is on the bench for Madrid, Garcia always has great things to say about, Rafa completely fell in love with the club, why is it so crazy to think Torres might still have a bit of love for the club.

It is bizarre alright that the guy took a few words out of a rather long post?? but i suppose the thanks whoring exercise was somewhat sucessful.

But cop on and get with it - stay deluded its the new trend around here.:p

Don't forget also Masch dedicating his CL win against UTD minutes after the game to LFC and it's supporters.

killwill

Leiva wrote: »

Cop on and get with it - stay deluded its the new trend around here.

Don't forget also Masch dedicating his CL win against UTD minutes after the game to LFC and it's supporters.

And we all know how Masch gave his all for the club in his last few weeks.

Leiva

killwill wrote: »

And we all know how Masch gave his all for the club in his last few weeks.

Again falls under the absolute shambles the club was in around the time of his leaving. We were lucky it was only him that wanted out.

Morzadec

Torres has clearly lost a significant amount of pace and acceleration, I can't see how anyone who has seen him play a few years ago and watches him now can claim otherwise! Bizarre.

He's going the same way as Owen imo. Both relied a lot on their pace, both had injuries which hampered that pace, both declined early when they should have been hitting what we usually think of as 'peak' years.

The idea of 'Peak' is not the same for all players. Players who rely on their pace will often have their peak years in their early/mid twenties as opposed late twenties/early thirties.

The margins are fine at this level and that fraction of a yard over the first few yards can be the difference between getting away from your marker and banging it in or getting tackled before you even get a foot on the ball.

This could have a trickle down effect on confidence, mentality etc... too. He knows he's no longer the world-beater he once was.

Talib Fiasco

Would fit in perfectly at Malaga for me...could be another piece to the puzzle for them too.

JPA

Back to AM with Falcao to Chelsea makes a lot of sense. I thought he was going to have a big season but he's holding Chelsea back IMO. They'd even be better with Sturridge in the central role.

Oregano_State

JPA wrote: »

Back to AM with Falcao to Chelsea makes a lot of sense. I thought he was going to have a big season but he's holding Chelsea back IMO. They'd even be better with Sturridge in the central role.

lol not a hope. Sturridge is far too direct, and that's a nice way of putting it. Torres's all round play is light-years ahead of his, and he's a much more ruthless finisher, even if he's not as clinical as he once was.

eagle eye

Fernando Torres is playing really well for Chelsea fc. He makes the right runs, most of his passes are intelligent and set up others, he is taking defenders out of position with him when he moves wide. He is nearly always double if not triple defended when he is in the box because he is so dangerous. This is creating space for others i.e. Mata and Hazard.

He has 4 Premier League goals this season despite all that and as the season goes on and teams become more and more concerned with Mata and Hazard you will find his goal tally improve I think.

Barr

Torres is a giant flop for Chelsea - the sooner they get rid of him the better.

I think he is the weakest link in the Chelsea team.

Oregano_State

^^^ Big Contrast between the previous two posts! Just shows how football opinions can be so subjective.

I'm in the pro-Torres camp, despite being a United fan I've always like him as a player and a person.

EdenHazard

Oregano_State wrote: »

^^^ Big Contrast between the previous two posts! Just shows how football opinions can be so subjective.

I'm in the pro-Torres camp, despite being a United fan I've always like him as a player and a person.

Oh, you know him well do you? Hate that eamonn dunphyesque rubbish

Morzadec

Oregano_State wrote: »

^^^ Big Contrast between the previous two posts! Just shows how football opinions can be so subjective.

I'm in the pro-Torres camp, despite being a United fan I've always like him as a player and a person.

Truth lies somewhere in between I reckon.

He showed at the Euros that he's still a good player. But he's just not that good any more. Look at the drafts picks going on on boards at the moment - no one's picked him yet. If there had been a draft this time 3 years ago he might well have been the first pick, and would surely have been in the top 5.

Personally for a team like Chelsea with aspirations of winning the league and Champions League he's not good enough to be leading the line week in week out.

Oregano_State

EdenHazard wrote: »

Oh, you know him well do you? Hate that eamonn dunphyesque rubbish

Chill yer beanz. You obviously don't pick up on social cues very well, do you? You don't have to have a personal relationship with someone to get an idea of their personality.

I have formed an opinion that Torres is an alright chap, just like I've decided that Jedward are insufferable idiots, or Steven Gerrard is a self-important pr!ck, or Paul Scholes is an introvert, or George Hook is in love with a piece of technology...

It's my opinion, and right or wrong I'm entitled to it, so keep your nose out of it you don't mind.

Hate that OTT put-downism that goes on around this forum. Ridiculous!

Leiva

Oregano_State wrote: »

or George Hook is in love with a piece of technology...

Ohh I did laugh.

Barr

Out of interest what do ye reckon would be his market value if Chelsea flogged him in January ?

Morzadec

Barr wrote: »

Out of interest what do ye reckon would be his market value if Chelsea flogged him in January ?

I think any club (bar the likes of Anzhi or PSG) would be insane to contemplate anything more than £10m, taking into account his age, recent form and injury record.

And that's before we start talking about wages which would have to be about a third of what they are now.

DM_7

Plenty of footballers have peaked early and for a variety of reasons struggled to regain form they had early in a career. Operations and things like that would have had an impact on Torres.

The love LFC thing made me lol at first but its actually a good point.

Not neccesarily love for a club but his time there. If a player is happy, looking forward to games, willing to fight for his team (fans, manager, teammates), basically feels inspired by his surroundings it can have a huge impact on a player. The cliche of "hunger" doesn't seem to be there anymore. That is part of the initial regression.

Some players lose parts of there game but refine they way they play as they get older and maybe that is what Torres is doing now. Ryan Giggs went from Winger to midfielder. Maldini went from left back to centre half. Maybe Torres is on the way to becoming a more creative influence rather than an all out goalscorer?

LiamoSail

Xavi6 wrote: »

Where was he when Lennon was shot?

Given his record of talent spotting while at Liverpool, he'd have been more likely to shoot joe Dolan then John Lennon

Barr

Barr wrote: »

Out of interest what do ye reckon would be his market value if Chelsea flogged him in January ?

About three fiddy

Chancer3001

Im still waiting for Torres to have a good run of scoring and silence all his critics again.

His biggest problem for me is that he's learning a new role at Chelsea.

Not 100% sure of it, and not sure of the runs to make all the time. His role at Liverpool was his natural game, run and score.

But hes still very very skilful, very good and very dangerous.

Gave a great interview lately where he said Paulo Ferreira was his biggest support / idol at Chelsea! Dont know if anyone else read it but gave a quality insight into his personality and his willingness to sacrifice for the team

JPA

Oregano_State wrote: »

lol not a hope. Sturridge is far too direct, and that's a nice way of putting it. Torres's all round play is light-years ahead of his, and he's a much more ruthless finisher, even if he's not as clinical as he once was.

Sturridge would drive ya nuts but in a team as creative as Chelsea have become the centre forward should be all about goals, an in form torres would have double the goals.

The Torres of his peak was a player that could take 2 defenders out with a turn or piece of skill and slot home. Now he's more likely to pass then try to beat a man.

He's basically not good enough anymore for a team aiming for titles.

Sgt Pepper 64

eagle eye wrote: »

Fernando Torres is playing really well for Chelsea fc. He makes the right runs, most of his passes are intelligent and set up others, he is taking defenders out of position with him when he moves wide. He is nearly always double if not triple defended when he is in the box because he is so dangerous. This is creating space for others i.e. Mata and Hazard.

He has 4 Premier League goals this season despite all that and as the season goes on and teams become more and more concerned with Mata and Hazard you will find his goal tally improve I think.

Thats all very well, but a striker is there to score goals, not make assists for others. When the chips have been down and we needed Torres to step up and score when all the Hazard\mata\oscar trickery isnt working, he has failed.
He rarely shoots and instead waits for a certain type of ball, and even then, he rarely beats the keeper when one on one. His ball control is poor and is the most one dimensional player I have ever seen.
Contrast that with Sturridge, who for all his faults, goes looking for the ball and shoots from almost anyway and with energy and confidence. He makes things happen whereas Torres waits for something to happen.
Theres just too much history with Torres, he has tried to re-invent himself, but ultimately we want him to score goals and lots of them, and score winners.
We want a Tevez, an RVP, a Drogba. Players who score those important goals. We needed him v Utd, but he looked right, saw no one to pass to and fell over hopeing that Mata would score and got himself sent off instead.
We needed him away to swansea, but he just didnt turn up

RDM knew he needed someone else, someone different, but Loc Remy was the closest in the summer but somehow that fell through, and we couldnt get Schurrie and he doesnt believe in Danny for some reason.
So we will try again in Jan and probably over pay for someone

Will I Amnt

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

he doesnt believe in Danny for some reason.

There's a blatantly obvious good reason why.

eagle eye

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Thats all very well, but a striker is there to score goals, not make assists for others. When the chips have been down and we needed Torres to step up and score when all the Hazard\mata\oscar trickery isnt working, he has failed.
He rarely shoots and instead waits for a certain type of ball, and even then, he rarely beats the keeper when one on one. His ball control is poor and is the most one dimensional player I have ever seen.
Contrast that with Sturridge, who for all his faults, goes looking for the ball and shoots from almost anyway and with energy and confidence. He makes things happen whereas Torres waits for something to happen.
Theres just too much history with Torres, he has tried to re-invent himself, but ultimately we want him to score goals and lots of them, and score winners.
We want a Tevez, an RVP, a Drogba. Players who score those important goals. We needed him v Utd, but he looked right, saw no one to pass to and fell over hopeing that Mata would score and got himself sent off instead.
We needed him away to swansea, but he just didnt turn up

RDM knew he needed someone else, someone different, but Loc Remy was the closest in the summer but somehow that fell through, and we couldnt get Schurrie and he doesnt believe in Danny for some reason.
So we will try again in Jan and probably over pay for someone

So you are just going to forget about his performances against Newcastle and Arsenal when he was needed.

The man has 4 goals and 3 assists despite being double and triple teamed anytime he is near the box.

When he is needed eh? What about the Nou Camp last season?

Super-Rush

His armband proved he was a red Torres Torres.
He went to Chelsea, his career is dead Torres Torres.
We brought the lad from sunny Spain
His career is dead, he'll never score again.
Fernando Torres Chelsea's number 9.

PhlegmyMoses

Xavi6 wrote: »

It's Roy's fault, no other possible explanation.

He's also responsible for the recession, Hurricane Sandy and anything else that can be pinned on him.

Where was he when Lennon was shot?

Aaron Lennon has been shot? :eek:

Why must the good die young?

Barr

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

We want a Tevez, an RVP, a Drogba. Players who score those important goals. We needed him v Utd, but he looked right, saw no one to pass to and fell over hopeing that Mata would score and got himself sent off instead.
We needed him away to swansea, but he just didnt turn up

I would love to see Defoe at Chelsea. Great finisher and would fit in perfectly.

Maybe AVB would do a straight swap for old times sakes

GavRedKing

Let me put it this way, Torres will always be a better player then Sturridge, simple.

Sturridge has pace and no brain, he couldnt lace Torres boots in terms of football know how and general build up play.

Sturridge is an ok option from the bench but he wont be a starter for Chelsea and even at times RDN has decided to play Ramires wide right instead of Sturridge.

Sturridge may prove me wrong but id seriously doubt it.

Turtyturd

cambo2008 wrote: »

There's a blatantly obvious good reason why.

John Terry picks the team though...it's not like there could be any blatant reason why he wouldn't like him....oh wait.

Barr

Barr wrote: »

I would love to see Defoe at Chelsea. Great finisher and would fit in perfectly.

Maybe AVB would do a straight swap for old times sakes

Defoe blows hot and cold.

Will I Amnt

Turtyturd wrote: »

John Terry picks the team though...it's not like there could be any blatant reason why he wouldn't like him....oh wait.

He's got an ugly bird???

some crackers here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDDR9ubKKw

Sgt Pepper 64

eagle eye wrote: »

So you are just going to forget about his performances against Newcastle and Arsenal when he was needed.

The man has 4 goals and 3 assists despite being double and triple teamed anytime he is near the box.

When he is needed eh? What about the Nou Camp last season?

Yep - a No1 striker who has had the team pretty built around him needs to turn up against the likes of Man U - big games call for big players.
Gone missing in Europe so far as well

Arsenal game - yes he scored, but hardly ran them ragged - we were lucky to hang on. and do you remember his fresh air shot and appeals for a peno?
The newcastle game I'll give you, but the fact is we have played 10 games, mostly against opposition we should beat and the fact remains he should be scoring winning goals but its our defenders who have been doing that.
He has been holding back Chelsea for 2 years now - cant wait to get shot of him.
He's just nowhere near consistant or reliable enough.
especially compared with other big teams like utd

mins per shot = 55.6
total shots =14
mins played = 779, 9 games

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11994/8212744/Time-up-for-Torres-