"No Refund" policies

Proxy

According to the Consumer Rights Act stickied on this board, the following:

Notices which say: no money refunded

Such notices have no legal effect and should not be displayed. Consumer rights cannot be taken away in this way and it is an offence to display such a notice if it seems to imply that the consumer does not have the rights contained in the Act.

If I pay for a service which was not provided, can the service provider refuse to refund my money if they wish?

In my specific case; I paid for a skydive with a well-known Irish skydive provider at the start of the year. Throughout the year, I booked and rebooked but all my bookings were cancelled due to weather. That's fair enough, that's Ireland. The season to jump has now closed for 2012, and I've decided to not book again next year and have asked for a refund of my money. They have refused multiple times at this point, as they say their No Refund Policy is in effect, and is on their site T&C's. They did not provide this to me before I booked, only after I paid the money. My friends have also booked and are getting the same response from the company.

The National Consumer Agency have advised to either ask the bank to look into a chargeback, or to go to the Small Claims Court.

Before I go to the bank or SCC, what is my standing here?

Thanks

dudara

Well - you are choosing not to avail of the service, rather than them denying you the service. I presume that they are still willing to provide you with the service in 2013. In my opinion, this comes under change of mind and therefore you are not entitled to have your monies refunded.

Nody

What Dudara said; they are not denying you the service but you're deciding not to use it which is a different kettle of fish (and the no refund policy would be in line with). If they had turned around and said "Sorry your voucher is no longer valid" they would be denying you the service as you tried to book and they cancelled it but that's not what you're stating.

Proxy

Hmm, that is what I was thinking alright. Thanks for the feedback.

Aside from my issue though - is the above statement true? Is it an offence to display a "No Refunds" notice? They seem to be fairly prevalent.

dudara

It's not an offence to display them, but they cannot supersede your statutory rights. As a result they can sometimes be misleading.

ScouseMouse

This is an interesting case but I actually disagree with the other comments here.

You want the service, they want to give it to you, but circumstances worked against you both.

I think its unreasonable to be expected to wait till next year. A few weeks maybe, few months maybe, but NEXT year. Don't think so.

cookie1977

It might also depend on how many times you and they have tried and failed to organise the event. If they cancelled on you at multiple times because of bad weather you may have a case but if they only cancelled 2-3 times then you probably need to give them more time especially if they are honouring the service into next year.

repsol

Get on Joe Duffys show.They will be coming into their best time for peddling vouchers for Xmas so they won't want bad publicity

Proxy

superscouse wrote: »

This is an interesting case but I actually disagree with the other comments here.

You want the service, they want to give it to you, but circumstances worked against you both.

I think its unreasonable to be expected to wait till next year. A few weeks maybe, few months maybe, but NEXT year. Don't think so.

Yeah, I agree, but in terms of the law, if I go to the Small Claims Court, they will probably equally rule that I have decided not to book again and am not entitled to my money back unless they all-out say they will not provide me the service, which they haven't done. I was more hacked-off that they took my money, and only then told me it was "no-refund".

Doesn't help either that they're rather lacking in the customer service field, repeatedly "missing" emails/calls requesting bookings where I could possibly have completed the jump.

Proxy

cookie1977 wrote: »

It might also depend on how many times you and they have tried and failed to organise the event. If they cancelled on you at multiple times because of bad weather you may have a case but if they only cancelled 2-3 times then you probably need to give them more time especially if they are honouring the service into next year.

Well they cancelled for me (off the top of my head) 8 times in a row. I didn't refuse any booking they gave me, and had to take multiple days off work, only to be told at less notice than the advertised 24 hours that the jump would not happen.

cookie1977

Proxy wrote: »

Well they cancelled for me (off the top of my head) 8 times in a row. I didn't refuse any booking they gave me, and had to take multiple days off work, only to be told at less notice than the advertised 24 hours that the jump would not happen.

Then I think you might have a case. Fair and reasonable is an important part of consumer law too.

Elysian

Proxy wrote: »

Hmm, that is what I was thinking alright. Thanks for the feedback.

Aside from my issue though - is the above statement true? Is it an offence to display a "No Refunds" notice? They seem to be fairly prevalent.

Only when it implies that the consumer does not have the rights contained in the Consumer Information Act.

Shops are allowed to post a no refunds notice that applies to costumers changing their mind on items they have purchased as they have no legal obligation to refund them. However shops are not allowed to post a no refunds notice in relation to faulty goods as in those cases they must provide one of the 3 Rs (repair, refund, replacement) which will be decided upon between the customer and the retailer.

finnegan101

presumably the contract for the service was for a specific date? and the contract was frustrated due to the weather? ref to 1901 case of coronation king eward v111 ? anyone have the name of that case......

Procrastastudy

dudara wrote: »

It's not an offence to display them, but they cannot supersede your statutory rights. As a result they can sometimes be misleading.

I have to disagree with our exalted moderator here.

11.—(1) Subsections (2) and (3) apply to any statement likely to be taken as indicating that a right or the exercise of a right conferred by, or a liability arising by virtue of, section 12, 13, 14 or 15 of the Act of 1893 is restricted or excluded otherwise than under section 55 of that Act.
(2) It shall be an offence for a person in the course of a business to do any of the following things in relation to a statement to which subsection (1) refers:
(a) to display on any part of any premises a notice that includes any such statement, or
(b) to publish or cause to be published an advertisement which contains any such statement, or
(c) to supply goods bearing, or goods in a container bearing, any such statement, or
(d) otherwise to furnish or to cause to be furnished a document including any such statement.
(3) For the purposes of this section a statement to the effect that goods will not be exchanged, or that money will not be refunded, or that only credit notes will be given for goods returned, shall be treated as a statement to which subsection (1) refers unless it is so clearly qualified that it cannot be construed as applicable in circumstances in which the buyer may be seeking to exercise a right conferred by any provision of a section mentioned in subsection (1).
(4) It shall be an offence for a person in the course of a business to furnish to a buyer goods bearing, or goods in a container bearing, or any document including, any statement, irrespective of its legal effect, which sets out, limits or describes rights conferred on a buyer or liabilities to the buyer in relation to goods acquired by him or any statement likely to be taken as such a statement, unless that statement is accompanied by a clear and conspicuous declaration that the contractual rights which the buyer enjoys by virtue of sections 12, 13, 14 and 15 of the Act of 1893 are in no way prejudiced by the relevant statement.

Section 41 deals specifically with such statements when offering a service.

This aside it does annoy me when people start harping on about couldn't get X or Y to do with flying / skydiving. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to realise this is a possibilty when combined with a busy life that many of us have. (Even me now! :P) Read the contract before handing over the dosh. If you're not happy negotiate. If they wont negotiate then go somewhere else or at least go into the contract informed.

dudara

Translating into plain English, the law says that a shop cannot limit your statutory rights (through a means such as those signs).

My comment is a shop can display those signs, as long as your statutory rights still take precedence.

I think we're broadly saying the same things.

slimjimmc

dudara wrote: »

Translating into plain English, the law says that a shop cannot limit your statutory rights (through a means such as those signs).

My comment is a shop can display those signs, as long as your statutory rights still take precedence.

I think we're broadly saying the same things.

So long as they don't purport to limit your statutory rights.
Most "no refund" signs I've seen have a little footnote stating "statutory rights not affected" or similar, and these are fine. A basic "No refund" sign without any further statement putting it into context would most likely fall foul of the law.

Jev/N

superscouse wrote: »

I think its unreasonable to be expected to wait till next year. A few weeks maybe, few months maybe, but NEXT year. Don't think so.

If it's the end of the season, it's the end of the season. Next year is only 7 weeks away so it's not completely crazy.

Skid

Proxy wrote: »

The National Consumer Agency have advised to either ask the bank to look into a chargeback, or to go to the Small Claims Court.

Thanks

Did the NCA quote the specific legislation under which they think you are entitled to a refund?

DylanII

I would think that its unreasonable for them to expect them to wait until next year.

You paid to do a jump this season. You booked and they canceled more than once. They didn't even give reasonable notice. This came at a cost to you (time of work) and they are holding onto the money until next year/jumping season.

If you pay for any service I don't think it would be reasonable to be expected to wait that long.

If you booked a flight with ryan air and they cancelled the flight, offered you another flight then cancelled that, would it be okay to expect you to wait until next year for your holiday/trip?

I think its reasonable that they give you a refund.

Procrastastudy

DylanII wrote: »

I would think that its unreasonable for them to expect them to wait until next year.

You paid to do a jump this season. You booked and they canceled more than once. They didn't even give reasonable notice. This came at a cost to you (time of work) and they are holding onto the money until next year/jumping season.

If you pay for any service I don't think it would be reasonable to be expected to wait that long.

If you booked a flight with ryan air and they cancelled the flight, offered you another flight then cancelled that, would it be okay to expect you to wait until next year for your holiday/trip?

I think its reasonable that they give you a refund.

What if Ryanair operated small light aircraft instead of 737s? What if a volcano erupted and it was unsafe to fly? It was more than foreseeable that the jumps could get cancelled for reasons beyond the control of the company. If the OP was free all the time I'm sure he could have made the jump but it just so happens the schedules didn't meet up. While I have no time for companies that try and rip people off; ill informed consumers that don't do a basic level of research annoy me just as much.

As an example I flew out of RAF Benson for years. I reckon that even during the summer 20-30% of my flights (weekends) where cancelled due to weather. The climate around there is a damn sight nicer than it is around Dublin.

The T&Cs where there for the OP - if you dont like them vote with your feet.

cookie1977

It's difficult to give such definitive advice without knowing more about the contract and situation. Is it fair and reasonable that your parachute jump was cancelled 8 separate times? Without knowing what your contract says it's hard to give a definitive answer but I would not consider it fair and reasonable.

There are new consumer laws coming in based on a review groups recommendations.

http://www.djei.ie/press/2011/20111018.htm

Future legislation should also include a provision that a service will be reasonably fit for any particular purpose, and of such a nature and quality that it can reasonably be expected to achieve any particular result, that the recipient of the service makes known to the supplier as the purpose for which the service is required, or the result that the recipient desires to achieve. Contract terms that exclude the quality terms implied by statute into consumer contracts for services should be automatically unfair in future rather than, as at present, being excludable where they can be shown to be fair and reasonable.

ScouseMouse

Jev/N wrote: »

If it's the end of the season, it's the end of the season. Next year is only 7 weeks away so it's not completely crazy.

Yes, new year is only 7 weeks away, BUT, how far away is the new season.

I think its irrelevant anyway. If I had 8 appointments cancelled, I would not want number 9.

Its unreasonable and would have to be refunded.

ScouseMouse

Procrastastudy wrote: »

What if Ryanair operated small light aircraft instead of 737s? What if a volcano erupted and it was unsafe to fly? It was more than foreseeable that the jumps could get cancelled for reasons beyond the control of the company. If the OP was free all the time I'm sure he could have made the jump but it just so happens the schedules didn't meet up. While I have no time for companies that try and rip people off; ill informed consumers that don't do a basic level of research annoy me just as much.

As an example I flew out of RAF Benson for years. I reckon that even during the summer 20-30% of my flights (weekends) where cancelled due to weather. The climate around there is a damn sight nicer than it is around Dublin.

The T&Cs where there for the OP - if you dont like them vote with your feet.

So if your flight out was cancelled 8 times, you would still try to fly out on flight number 9? I don't think so, or you have the patience of a saint.

Procrastastudy

superscouse wrote: »

So if your flight out was cancelled 8 times, you would still try to fly out on flight number 9? I don't think so, or you have the patience of a saint.

The point I'm making is people aren't comparing like with like here. I'm also not saying I would go with a company that acted like this - I'm simply saying if you didn't read the T&Cs of your contract and the company isn't acting unreasonably, which they aren't given the nature of the business, you only have yourself to blame.

Its blindingly obvious that light aircraft, especially when you are jumping out of it, are subject to weather conditions.

ResearchWill

dudara wrote: »

Translating into plain English, the law says that a shop cannot limit your statutory rights (through a means such as those signs).

My comment is a shop can display those signs, as long as your statutory rights still take precedence.

I think we're broadly saying the same things.

(2) It shall be an offence for a person in the course of a business to do any of the following things in relation to a statement to which subsection (1) refers:
(a) to display on any part of any premises a notice that includes any such statement, or

The important word is offence, while the penalties have been amended the original as enacted provided for the following


Penalties.

6.—(1) A person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £500 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both the fine and the imprisonment, or

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding £10,000 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both the fine and the imprisonment.

Proxy

Spoke to my girlfriend last night, jumps were cancelled 11 times in total. 3 instances of booking dates requested and no responses received.

The weather reason I don't mind - like I say in the OP, this is Ireland. The fact they cancelled that many times is probably irrelevant to the case given the nature of the activity. However, is it not the responsibility of the service provider to make the customer aware of a no refund policy before monies exchange for contract? Surely burying this detail in website T&C's isn't the limit of obligation. Especially since our booking was made via email and payment was done by card, over the phone.

Another friend in contact last night, who bought through LivingSocial. Their voucher expired Oct 31st 2012 and there is no carryforward to next year. That is also buried in their site T&C's.

Procrastastudy

Proxy wrote: »

Spoke to my girlfriend last night, jumps were cancelled 11 times in total. 3 instances of booking dates requested and no responses received.

The weather reason I don't mind - like I say in the OP, this is Ireland. The fact they cancelled that many times is probably irrelevant to the case given the nature of the activity. However, is it not the responsibility of the service provider to make the customer aware of a no refund policy before monies exchange for contract? Surely burying this detail in website T&C's isn't the limit of obligation. Especially since our booking was made via email and payment was done by card, over the phone.

Another friend in contact last night, who bought through LivingSocial. Their voucher expired Oct 31st 2012 and there is no carryforward to next year. That is also buried in their site T&C's.

While I actually have a bit more sypathy for you now on the specific situation no it is not up to the company to make you aware of things in the contract. As an adult with freewill you should read the contract. The exception is exclusion clauses which is only fair.

I know I might be a d!ck but I always read things before I commit myself to them.

Jev/N

superscouse wrote: »

Yes, new year is only 7 weeks away, BUT, how far away is the new season.

I think its irrelevant anyway. If I had 8 appointments cancelled, I would not want number 9.

Its unreasonable and would have to be refunded.

I agree to an extent but if it's weather-related each time and there is only a specific 'diving season' each year, then it could be viewed as a legitimate stance

Lenny

Proxy wrote: »

Spoke to my girlfriend last night, jumps were cancelled 11 times in total. 3 instances of booking dates requested and no responses received.

The weather reason I don't mind - like I say in the OP, this is Ireland. The fact they cancelled that many times is probably irrelevant to the case given the nature of the activity. However, is it not the responsibility of the service provider to make the customer aware of a no refund policy before monies exchange for contract? Surely burying this detail in website T&C's isn't the limit of obligation. Especially since our booking was made via email and payment was done by card, over the phone.

Another friend in contact last night, who bought through LivingSocial. Their voucher expired Oct 31st 2012 and there is no carryforward to next year. That is also buried in their site T&C's.

Glad to see this topic. I bought 4 of these deals for myself & 3 other friends off the ls.com, they had canceld 3 times on us.one of the days we all took a day off work, costing us money. they notify us 15 hours before hand that it was canceled.
Ls.com had told me in an email near the ending of the expiry as I rang them to confirm that it *could* expire soon, and they emailed me to say that it should be extended if the merchant canceled due to weather..
We were canceled 3 times(the last weekend of the deal)

I had emailed someone in skydive ireland to ask about an extension & they point blankly said no, if it expires thats it. they were heavily discounted and its not their fault because of the weather. we're out of pocket for over 500 euro for 4 slips of paper of an expired sky dive.
getting through to the place to rebook was a nightmare. I had rang 23 times on tuesday(30/10/2012) left two voicemails to get a call back to book in for the 31/10/12(the last day) finally got through & they were booked out, and then closed for the season.
I got a call back the next day they got my message.. nearly swear they waited for then to call me back.
considering nearly 758 of these deals were sold, and plus their regular bookings I think it should of been capped as the weekends are hard to get, and with the way the irish weather can be...

does anyone think I have reason to be getting a refund off ls.com ?

here was ls.com "fine print"
Limit 1 per purchaser, additional as gifts. Limit 1 per gift recipient • You must be at least 16 years old to do a Skydive. If you are aged 16-18 you must have a parent or Legal Guardian sign our Minor Consent form giving you permission to Skydive. Also, your Parent or Legal Guardian must be present on the day of your Skydive. Proof of age may be requested from you prior to your Skydive taking place • Bookings required and subject to availability • Cancellation/re-scheduling policy of 72 hours applies; voucher subject to forfeiture • Option A: (Solo Skydive) requires 6 hours of training onsite before dive can take place - dates for training are 1 August, 1 September, 1 October. Training can only be booked on these dates, depending on weather. The training is valid for 6 weeks, if the weather is bad on these dates the jump can take place another time within a 6 week period, after this period the training must be taken again. Skydive Ireland will do everything possible to make a jump possible on these days but it is strictly weather permitting for safety • Option B: (Tandem Skydive) requires only 20 minutes of training. You can book your skydive for any day of the week however, it is weather dependent so please check forecasts before booking • For full Skydive Ireland terms and conditions please copy and paste skydiveireland.ie/footer-terms.php into your browser • Please contact merchant directly, within 7 days of voucher-issue, for information on any special assistance required including disabled access - if the merchant's arrangements are not adequate for your requirements, LivingSocial will be happy to issue a refund under our standard cancellation policy • For more information visit www.skydiveireland.ie"

finnegan101

even ryanair would give refund in that situation!!! Are aviation rules and refunds any good here as it was a flight cancelled!!

slimjimmc

finnegan101 wrote: »

even ryanair would give refund in that situation!!! Are aviation rules and refunds any good here as it was a flight cancelled!!

Unlikely if it's the dive that's being cancelled, not the flight. I suspect the weather issues have a bigger effect on parachutes than on planes.