Adapt to Fat!

kingQuez

Theres been a bit of noise lately about a fat based diet for endurance sports, I guess a chunk of this is around the talks Barry Murphy gave in wheelworx recently.. and other people just keeping ontop of the next big thing.

If you've been following the articles, talking to people who actually base their diet off this, or were even over at the talks in wheelworx... what's your take on it?

I haven't seen much practical information about how to change your diet yet, but I haven't had a lot of time to look into it either. If you're doing it, how long have you been doing it, and whats your experience of it so far?

I'm reminded of diet after dying horribly on the way up to the sally gap on sunday without breakfast and only with a couple of gels in my pocket

tunney

kingQuez wrote: »

Theres been a bit of noise lately about a fat based diet for endurance sports, I guess a chunk of this is around the talks Barry Murphy gave in wheelworx recently.. and other people just keeping ontop of the next big thing.

If you've been following the articles, talking to people who actually base their diet off this, or were even over at the talks in wheelworx... what's your take on it?

I haven't seen much practical information about how to change your diet yet, but I haven't had a lot of time to look into it either. If you're doing it, how long have you been doing it, and whats your experience of it so far?

I'm reminded of diet after dying horribly on the way up to the sally gap on sunday without breakfast and only with a couple of gels in my pocket

Has any research, actual proper research, proved that ingesting more fats results in improved fat metabolization?

You can improve how your body uses fat as a fuel, there are a number of ways of doing so. Eating more fat is not one of them.

Kurt Godel

kingQuez wrote: »

Theres been a bit of noise lately about a fat based diet for endurance sports, I guess a chunk of this is around the talks Barry Murphy gave in wheelworx recently.. and other people just keeping ontop of the next big thing.

If you've been following the articles, talking to people who actually base their diet off this, or were even over at the talks in wheelworx... what's your take on it?

I haven't seen much practical information about how to change your diet yet, but I haven't had a lot of time to look into it either. If you're doing it, how long have you been doing it, and whats your experience of it so far?

I'm reminded of diet after dying horribly on the way up to the sally gap on sunday without breakfast and only with a couple of gels in my pocket

Isn't the idea that they (ultrarunners Barry Murphy & co.) train long on an empty stomach, in order to stress the body so it will become more efficient at burning fat stores? Carb fueling during races then becomes turbo-charged.

Your bonking at the Sallygap would then be considered an effective way to train- if you repeated the route today you'd go further without bonking. And ultimately under race conditions you'd go further (and faster) still, as your body metabolizes its fat stores efficiently, while also quickly metabolizing any carbs you take on board.

tunney

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Isn't the idea that they (ultrarunners Barry Murphy & co.) train long on an empty stomach, in order to stress the body so it will become more efficient at burning fat stores? Carb fueling during races then becomes turbo-charged.

Your bonking at the Sallygap would then be considered an effective way to train- if you repeated the route today you'd go further without bonking. And ultimately under race conditions you'd go further (and faster) still, as your body metabolizes its fat stores efficiently, while also quickly metabolizing any carbs you take on board.

Fasted training is very different to what was said in the OP!

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

Fasted training is very different to what was said in the OP!

Yeah, I'm going on the jist of a recent conversation with someone who was at one of these talks, but I wasn't there myself. Training long on an empty stomach in order to increase fat metabolism, is the basis his method, but there's more to it as well. I don't know whats in his "Bazballs" that he eats.

kingQuez

I'm basing my questions off second (possibly third hand) information, so I could be (read "am") very wrong about the diet aspect; hence the post and questions

Training on empty makes sense (and doesn't seem especially new)...

The limited snippets I've heard indicates that you cut carbs dramatically, I don't know about increasing fat ingestion.. I got the impression the timing of consumption came into play a lot. As I say.. curious what else is happening here other than training on empty.

tunney

kingQuez wrote: »

I'm basing my questions off second (possibly third hand) information, so I could be (read "am") very wrong about the diet aspect; hence the post and questions

Training on empty makes sense (and doesn't seem especially new)...

The limited snippets I've heard indicates that you cut carbs dramatically, I don't know about increasing fat ingestion.. I got the impression the timing of consumption came into play a lot. As I say.. curious what else is happening here other than training on empty.

I've done alot of training on empty. One takeaway from it would be the cost to the body is much more for a session than the same session unfasted.

pgibbo

I've been to a few of Barry's talks and I have to say they make a lot of sense. In fairness, a lot of what he says is common sense but some of it you wouldn't know.

He's a big advocate of training on empty for fat burning adaptations. But as with everything, it's an incremental approach. A bit like minimalist shoes - baby steps.

Apparently there's a podcast on ultra talk where he is interviewed about training on empty. I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet but will do shortly.

AFAIK Gavin and BMC are both clients of his as is Steve Cummings of team BMC.

pgibbo

kingQuez wrote: »

The limited snippets I've heard indicates that you cut carbs dramatically, I don't know about increasing fat ingestion.. I got the impression the timing of consumption came into play a lot. As I say.. curious what else is happening here other than training on empty.

One thing that Barry is an advocate of is planning your food consumption around training. So on an easy day you wouldn't consume as much food as you would on a tough training day, etc. Recovery straight after a tough or long session is juice with protein plus a banana typically.

White carbs and good quality protein (chicken rather than steak) plus greens are consumed within an hour of a hard or long session. That's really the only time you take white carbs - as part of recovery.

Basically if it swam, ran, flew or is it's natural state then it can't be all bad.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

One thing that Barry is an advocate of is planning your food consumption around training. So on an easy day you wouldn't consume as much food as you would on a tough training day, etc. Recovery straight after a tough or long session is juice with protein plus a banana typically.

White carbs and good quality protein (chicken rather than steak) plus greens are consumed within an hour of a hard or long session. That's really the only time you take white carbs - as part of recovery.

Basically if it swam, ran, flew or is it's natural state then it can't be all bad.

Sounds like the OP owes Barry an apology

Sounds like good old fashioned down to earth sports nutrition advice.

kennyb3

Sounds like nutrition 101, not exactly rocket science stuff now is it

sconhome

And in fairness to Barry, he is his own work in progress. He's quite active on Twitter and keeps linking to interesting topics. If he doesn't agree with the topic of advice he generally explains why.

Good common sense approach.

danlen

tunney wrote: »

Has any research, actual proper research, proved that ingesting more fats results in improved fat metabolization?

I've been reading this book lately and it has lots of recent research referenced in it when its making points.

It's certainly interesting reading and the premise seems logical. Although I do feel more top quality research is needed for a definite answer.

pgibbo

kennyb3 wrote: »

Sounds like nutrition 101, not exactly rocket science stuff now is it

There a lot more to what he preaches than what I wrote.

Besides, how many people actually do the 101 stuff? It might not be rocket science but you'd be surprised how many people get it wrong

sconhome

danlen wrote: »

I've been reading this book lately and it has lots of recent research referenced in it when its making points.

It's certainly interesting reading and the premise seems logical. Although I do feel more top quality research is needed for a definite answer.

Cheers for that link, that's my next reading material sorted.

I think the point Tunney is making is more to do with eating more fat and proof of enhancement of performance. Nowhere does any of the reading I've done, encourage eating more fat. The point is generally stressed that eating the right fat is most important.

It's interesting that real butter is now the best thing to eat on your spelt wheat bread or spuds. Someone told me recently that the hydrogenated fats in most margarines originated as a means to fatten farmed turkeys, but did not get FDA approval for use, so to recoup the development costs a whole 'margarine is better for you' campaign happened. It kinda sounds plausible.

pgibbo

Has anyone read Noakes book on LCHF? Here's a study he's currently conducting.

kingQuez

tunney wrote: »

Sounds like the OP owes Barry an apology

Sounds like good old fashioned down to earth sports nutrition advice.

Yep, more than happy to say it sounds like I'd taken the wrong impression from the tidbits I'd hear.! Comments about frys for breakfast, and commentary about articles with unusual nutrition advice had led me astray

RacoonQueen

Fat adaptation, nutrient timing, training on empty and intermittent fasting.

It's not so much about being low carb, it's about eating the right types of foods at the right time and as P says - basing what you eat each day around your training sessions.

Barry looks at the response of the endocrine system/hormonal response to what we eat. That's why the carbs at certain times of the day aren't recommended based on his learnings/studies/experimenting on himself. Bread, for example, whether white or brown - just turns into sugar eventually and spikes your insulin and then it'll obviously crash again(more complicated when you dig deep obviously). Perfect for short, high intensity workouts but not ideal for your 5 hour spin. The best time for your body to take on carb rich foods is after training, when your body is able to deal with it.

The whole training on empty thing takes some getting used to, once you've adapted to it you train better and recover better. Each to their own and all that but i started out training on empty then started training with carbs in my system and now reverted/reverting to empty again. The key to training on empty is probably your recovery food as much as anything. Within 5 minutes of finishing training(difficult) - protein + simple carbs. I tend to go for greek yoghurt and orange juice or banana when I get in the door.
Then within an hour lean protein + carbs (low or high GI depending on session)

Some of his 'key principles':
Improve insulin function by managing carb intake; timing, type and amount - emphasis on low GI (sweet potato, berries, quinoa, apples etc).
Good sourced full fat foods to help adapt to fat metabolism - suggesting that fatty mince is better then the lean 95% fat free stuff.
Decrease sugar sensitivity by avoiding added sugar and artificially sweetened foods

He does go for lowering carbs and basing diet around full fat type foods. To quote ''rashers, sausages, eggs, pudding fried in butter is one of the best meals you can have''

Very, very complicated if you want to know the science etc behind it all. Hard to put across your own interpretation of what you get from him and others. We're going to latch on to the things we like (like that you can have a full fry up for breakfast every morning friend in butter once there are no carbs) and conveniently forget he tells you not to drink tea. :pac:

Bannock and MacDonald have very similar approaches.
http://www.guruperformance.com
http://www.mac-nutrition.com

Briando

RacoonQueen wrote: »

he tells you not to drink tea. :pac:

Dont be a tease! Why not the tea? How can breakfast be complete without a cuppa!

RacoonQueen

Briando wrote: »

Dont be a tease! Why not the tea? How can breakfast be complete without a cuppa!

Couldn't tell ya in detail. I always pretend I don't hear that part when people tell me not to drink my precious tea.

kingQuez

no tea? for that reason, i'm out.

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

Has anyone read Noakes book on LCHF? Here's a study he's currently conducting.

Cheers for the timing on that link. Just as I opened it E leans over wondering what I'm reading, up pops pictures of bikinis.

RacoonQueen

kingQuez wrote: »

no tea? for that reason, i'm out.

Surprised you got that far, thought you'd have fainted when you read intermittent fasting...FASTING.

Was going to attach some old lecture slides of Barry's from 2010, might help explain some of his thought a bit, though some of his thoughts seem to have changed. Can bung it in an email if anyone is interested.

Edit: Actually uploaded them to google, I hope Barry doesn't mind if he see this :pac:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1VG5mpRQkpVC87xSMLQ5qttlHjHbmWrMiCHlSD4ZQzGaDIQ3sWR3-K4exk6cm

kingQuez

RacoonQueen wrote: »

.... intermittent fasting...FASTING

I'll have you know I fast regularly. From about 12pm till 7am!

peter kern

kingQuez wrote: »

I'm basing my questions off second (possibly third hand) information, so I could be (read "am") very wrong about the diet aspect; hence the post and questions

Training on empty makes sense (and doesn't seem especially new)...

The limited snippets I've heard indicates that you cut carbs dramatically, I don't know about increasing fat ingestion.. I got the impression the timing of consumption came into play a lot. As I say.. curious what else is happening here other than training on empty.

if you seriously bonk at a session thats not really good, as it has an serious effect on your next session. That dosnt mean once in a while its not a good thing to happen ( depending what you train for ) but its a bit like going from kayanos to barefoot running in too short time.
and as Barry very correctly says its baby steps.

sconhome

I just remembered a club session where I was meeting up with a guy from Twitter who was a big fan of Barry Murrays. He had eben to one of his earlier lectures and came away with different recipes for Bazballs and energy gels.

The look on the club mates faces when this guy who I had never met before produced these home made gels (honey, salt & olive oil) in medical syringes for ease of transport and use.

Probably would need to have been there....

kingQuez

I like the cookie monster ultrarunner diet..

http://www.tedmed.com/videos-info?name=Scott_Jurek_&_Cookie_Monster_at_TEDMED_2012&q=updated&year=all&sid=214&vid=279

RacoonQueen

amphkingwest wrote: »

I just remembered a club session where I was meeting up with a guy from Twitter who was a big fan of Barry Murrays. He had eben to one of his earlier lectures and came away with different recipes for Bazballs and energy gels.

The look on the club mates faces when this guy who I had never met before produced these home made gels (honey, salt & olive oil) in medical syringes for ease of transport and use.

Probably would need to have been there....

Probably similar to the looks on everyones faces at the weekend when I told them I don't eat on the bike :pac:

KQ came out of the shop with practically a full dinner for himself.

When I went to one of Barry's talks a few years ago he was showing people how to make their own gels and energy drinks and whatnot. Don't think he does for them at all now. Wonder what his philosophy of multi-day events is though.

sconhome

Was wondering why it took 5 hours to do 115k !

RacoonQueen

amphkingwest wrote: »

Was wondering why it took 5 hours to do 115k !

Who've you been stalking?!

4:29 moving time - the other 40 minutes was dinner time.

pgibbo

He was still showing people how to make their own up to a few months back. However, I think the Wheelworx talks were to be his last for a while. All 1 to 1 stuff going forward from what I understand.