Is Ireland right-wing or left-wing?

Qualitymark

YOU decide.

stupidfishy

Is anyone else sick of politics?

Last night I had dream about 'Voting no against Romney in the Obama care childrens referendum'

Think my wires are getting crossed somewhere.

Balmed Out

since every party is either centre or left i suppose left, why what do you think?

Qualitymark

Balmed Out wrote: »

since every party is either centre or left i suppose left, why what do you think?

Right-wing or left-wing isn't only about parties; it's also about social attitudes.

NinjaK

question need more detail. economically without doubt right-wing, socially left-wing.

Balmed Out

even more left wing then

mikemac1

I hope Degsy joins this thread

Actually, where has he gone, not seen him around in a long while

Annasopra

Balmed Out wrote: »

since every party is either centre or left i suppose left, why what do you think?

Fine Gael is very right wing

Death and Taxes

The parties with the biggest representation, FG,Lab and Ff all pursue right wing economic policies.
We still have no national health system, most schools are privatley owned, most housing is privatley owned , and we are in the process of privatising our remaining utilities, and capitalism is the dominant economic system.
Quite obviously we are a right wing country.

Qualitymark

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The parties with the biggest representation, FG,Lab and Ff all pursue right wing economic policies.
We still have no national health system, most schools are privatley owned, most housing is privatley owned , and we are in the process of privatising our remaining utilities, and capitalism is the dominant economic system.
Quite obviously we are a right wing country.

And apart from the politicians, what about the attitudes of *actual humans*?

dfx-

Socially religious and conservative, right wing for me..

Death and Taxes

Qualitymark wrote: »

And apart from the politicians, what about the attitudes of *actual humans*?

Actual humans elect right wing politicans and demand economic right wing policies, actual humans also pursue conservative right wing social policies!
Who did you think actually elected right wing government after right wing government, the Leprechauns?:D

SmilingLurker

Left or right is old fashioned. It is 'populist'. Idealism free zone, full of localism. Resign after wrong doing? Never. Worst thing is the electorate vote in the same people.

We get the representatives we deserve.

speedboatchase

Politically I think it's mostly left/centre of left. Unions hold huge power, socialism isn't a dirty word and the government's size and power is enormous. Obviously it used to be a lot more socially conversative but that's changing.

Scioch

Centre left I'd say.

iDave

Pragmatic

Scanlas The 2nd

NinjaK wrote: »

question need more detail. economically without doubt right-wing, socially left-wing.

Economically we are left wing, our social welfare policy is ridiculously generous.

BillyMitchel

Chicken wing.

Defo more right.

Sunnyisland

I am out on a wing.

Death and Taxes

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Economically we are left wing, our social welfare policy is ridiculously generous.

Relative to where? The USA, Zimbabwe?
Economically we are right wing and our SW welfare system is best described as residual, it is shockingly bad compared to the universal model as seen in Scandanavia, but then again as a right wing liberal economy we refuse to pay tax to fund SW.
I suggest you read Gosta Esping Andersons "Three Worlds of Welfare capitalism" before making any further ill thought out comments.

stevedublin

Ireland is left wing economically.
Socially we used to be right wing but moving to left wing over the last 30 years or so.

Qualitymark

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Actual humans elect right wing politicans and demand economic right wing policies, actual humans also pursue conservative right wing social policies!
Who did you think actually elected right wing government after right wing government, the Leprechauns?:D

The Leprechaun vote has significant power in Éire. Look at our President!

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Economically we are left wing, our social welfare policy is ridiculously generous.

What kind of social welfare insurance system would you like, Scanlas? Would you like to be insured against unemployment at all?

By the way, by asking about "actual humans", I'm not talking about the way people vote - we know that, it's clear - but about people's attitudes to others and to the society we live in, and people's way of acting towards others.

dfx-

stevedublin wrote: »

Socially we used to be right wing but moving to left wing over the last 30 years or so.

Is that a case of there only being one direction in which to move but left wing from Ireland of 30-40 years ago

Balmed Out

mango salsa wrote: »

Fine Gael is very right wing

Fine gael support our a high level of welfare, huge government spending on the public sector and government intervention in pretty much everything we do. Thats not right wing. In an Irish context they are "very right wing" compared to the rest but that doesnt make it right wing.

Oafley Jones

Balmed Out wrote: »

Fine gael support our a high level of welfare, huge government spending on the public sector and government intervention in pretty much everything we do. Thats not right wing. In an Irish context they are "very right wing" compared to the rest but that doesnt make it right wing.

Precisely. Anyone who thinks we're in a right wing country has never encountered the real deal.

Shenshen

Economically, more right-wing than most European countries, but still on the sane side comapred to, say, the US.

Socially, highly conservative and right-wing.

Shenshen

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Economically we are left wing, our social welfare policy is ridiculously generous.

In comparison to where, exactly? Russia?
Most of Europe has far more developped and extensive social welfare programs than Ireland.

folan

not right wing enough. lower my damn taxes.

smaller government for all. make locals responsible for their local area.

philologos

Ireland is neither. It's fundamentally centrist. The political parties are largely still divided along 1922 Civil War lines.

Qualitymark

folan wrote: »

not right wing enough. lower my damn taxes.

smaller government for all. make locals responsible for their local area.

If locals are responsible for their local area, wouldn't that mean high local taxes? Or would it mean that wealthy areas get better services? Is this a good thing, really?

Iwasfrozen

Qualitymark wrote: »

If locals are responsible for their local area, wouldn't that mean high local taxes? Or would it mean that wealthy areas get better services? Is this a good thing, really?

Yes because it will encourage people to move to wealthy areas.

Qualitymark

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes because it will encourage people to move to wealthy areas.

Oh, really? I'd love to move to Sandycove - can you tell me how I can do this? I'm not awfully rich, unfortunately.

philologos

dfx- wrote: »

Socially religious and conservative, right wing for me..

Socially conservative != right wing
Socially liberal != left

Left and right refer to economics only.

folan

Qualitymark wrote: »

If locals are responsible for their local area, wouldn't that mean high local taxes? Or would it mean that wealthy areas get better services? Is this a good thing, really?

it would. and it would also ensure that local areas are able to use available funds to them for the services which are most vital to them. it rewards people who invest in their local area. it rewards people who get involved in their local are.

9959

Fine Gael. Right-Wing. Always were, always will be.

Fianna Fail. Right-Wing. Always were, always will be, don't believe all that guff about the party of the peasants.

Labour. Centrist. With a few left-wing, back-benchers.

Sinn Fein. Perceived as being Left-wing, but their 'raison d'être' is a united Ireland by fair means or foul, any which way, right-wing, left-wing, military-wing.
A heady mix of populist sloganeering, left-wing rhetoric and Brits-Out atavism.
Not socialism, but Right-Wing, 'NATIONAL SOCIALISM'.

golden lane

people who have to give are right wing....

people who want are left wing....

gbee

I posted right wing by accident. Dyslectic I guess.

We have a right wing socialist policy but jackbooted by left wing policy makers.

[edit] Reading other replies I don't know the difference anymore.

Qualitymark

folan wrote: »

it would. and it would also ensure that local areas are able to use available funds to them for the services which are most vital to them. it rewards people who invest in their local area. it rewards people who get involved in their local are.

This sounds great, *if* there's a mixture of rich and poor in any area. But while, for instance, many Ballymun people do enormous amounts of work for their area, cutting this area off from central funding and expecting it to fund itself, when it has a high level of unemployment and underpaid work, seems to doom the area to a downward spiral of deprivation.

On the other hand, Foxrock, where most of the inhabitants have been able to move there and buy expensive houses or pay expensive rents because they're highly paid - and then their children reap the advantage of living in a section where they are surrounded by educated people, and of going to schools where the best teachers are hired...

Well, you see the possible disadvantages of turning local areas into little Alamos? It sounds to me like the grain of a good idea - I love the thought of local involvement being rewarded, and of there being more local control - but economies of scale that work so well in big capitalist companies also work pretty well in the sharing of funding.

There's the problem of wastage through inefficiency and stupidity and overblown bureaucracy - but solving that is a separate question.

Shenshen

philologos wrote: »

Socially conservative != right wing
Socially liberal != left

Left and right refer to economics only.

Common usage of the phrase appears to contradict you there :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

Left or right wing describes positions on the economy, society, the environment, and nationalism.

philologos

Shenshen wrote: »

Common usage of the phrase appears to contradict you there :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

Left or right wing describes positions on the economy, society, the environment, and nationalism.

One can be right wing and liberal, and left wing and conservative. On the political spectrum there are two axes, not one.

Shenshen

philologos wrote: »

One can be right wing and liberal, and left wing and conservative. On the political spectrum there are two axes, not one.

Four, actually.
You can be economically left or right.
You can be socially left or right.
You can be national/patriotic left or right.
And you can be left or right on matters of the environment.

To take an extreme example, Hitler was economically left, socially right and nationalistic right. Not entirely sure about his views on the environment, but given his love of nature etc, I'd suspect left.

folan

Qualitymark wrote: »

This sounds great, *if* there's a mixture of rich and poor in any area. But while, for instance, many Ballymun people do enormous amounts of work for their area, cutting this area off from central funding and expecting it to fund itself, when it has a high level of unemployment and underpaid work, seems to doom the area to a downward spiral of deprivation.

On the other hand, Foxrock, where most of the inhabitants have been able to move there and buy expensive houses or pay expensive rents because they're highly paid - and then their children reap the advantage of living in a section where they are surrounded by educated people, and of going to schools where the best teachers are hired...

Well, you see the possible disadvantages of turning local areas into little Alamos? It sounds to me like the grain of a good idea - I love the thought of local involvement being rewarded, and of there being more local control - but economies of scale that work so well in big capitalist companies also work pretty well in the sharing of funding.

There's the problem of wastage through inefficiency and stupidity and overblown bureaucracy - but solving that is a separate question.

this happens now. the better schools are already in richer areas. thats not going to change, and Foxrock tax has been used for Ballymun schools for years. put the onus on Ballymun to solve their problems. Give them help, definatly, but Im not going to pretend i can solve it. Ive driven through ballymun, why should I be left to fix their problems when no one knows them better than them. let them decide where to use their allocation. let them figure out how to decrease their unemployment rate? they will know what the underlying problem is in the area. too many people trained in an under performing industry? use the funds for further training or skills conversion. local people know what their local issues are.

hooradiation

mikemac1 wrote: »

I hope Degsy joins this thread

Actually, where has he gone, not seen him around in a long while

The script that generated his terrible posts finally crapped out.

Qualitymark

folan wrote: »

let them decide where to use their allocation. let them figure out how to decrease their unemployment rate? they will know what the underlying problem is in the area. too many people trained in an under performing industry? use the funds for further training or skills conversion. local people know what their local issues are.

Folan, this is all good. However, you've failed to take one thing into account: Ireland's shyness about social divisions. I worked for a little while in an area including the East Point Business Park. Local university graduates were too shy to seek work there - "that's not for the likes of us". We need mixed areas more than we need divided areas (in my opinion).

folan

Qualitymark wrote: »

Folan, this is all good. However, you've failed to take one thing into account: Ireland's shyness about social divisions. I worked for a little while in an area including the East Point Business Park. Local university graduates were too shy to seek work there - "that's not for the likes of us". We need mixed areas more than we need divided areas (in my opinion).

first time being shy has been used as an excuse.

I don't accept it as a valid one though.

as I said before, it exists this way now, and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

Qualitymark

folan wrote: »

first time being shy has been used as an excuse.

I don't accept it as a valid one though.

as I said before, it exists this way now, and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

Absolutely agree. Social borders should be crossed - people should give each other a hand from either side. Tragic thing is, Ireland was going that way: poor people were getting an education, the networks of skill & work were growing wider and deeper. Now they're narrowing again, and daddy's friends from the sailing club are getting Johnny a job, while much-brighter Jimmy gets a job raking leaves outside, if he's lucky.

Snickers Man

Are we Flufflebums or Mugglewumps?

You might as well pose the question in those terms because, like left- and right-wing they mean whatever the questioner chooses them to mean.

Left and right wing are, at this stage, just terms of abuse that people with entrenched attitudes like to throw at each other.

What does right-wing mean?

At the risk of somebody calling "Godwin's Law" let me just ask two related questions:

1) Was Adolf Hitler right wing?
2) Is Mitt Romney right wing?


If you answered yes to both of those, as I suspect many people would, then answer this: what have either of those two gentlemen got in common?

Romney is an avowed capitalist; Hitler despised capitalism and wanted to expunge it from the earth.

Romney believes in individual freedom and responsbility; Hitler demanded loyalty and duty to the state as represented by his party and his Fuhrerprinzip as the first duty of the citizen.

Romney opposes welfare spending and believes it is an individual's duty to provide for their own health care; Hitler maintained and strengthened an already considerable welfare state, providing generous incentives for families to have more children, excellent state-funded education and health programmes and sumptuous paid holidays for workers as part of his "Strength through Joy" initiative.

Hitler was a genocidal antisemite; Romney is a passionate and determined supporter of Israel.

Romney believes in freedom; Hitler was a socialist. The clue is in the name of his party the German National SOCIALIST WORKER'S party.

So if right wing means anything, where do those two men overlap?

I think you're all a bunch of Flufflebums.

Shenshen

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are we Flufflebums or Mugglewumps?

You might as well pose the question in those terms because, like left- and right-wing they mean whatever the questioner chooses them to mean.

Left and right wing are, at this stage, just terms of abuse that people with entrenched attitudes like to throw at each other.

What does right-wing mean?

At the risk of somebody calling "Godwin's Law" let me just ask two related questions:

1) Was Adolf Hitler right wing?
2) Is Mitt Romney right wing?


If you answered yes to both of those, as I suspect many people would, then answer this: what have either of those two gentlemen got in common?

Romney is an avowed capitalist; Hitler despised capitalism and wanted to expunge it from the earth.

Romney believes in individual freedom and responsbility; Hitler demanded loyalty and duty to the state as represented by his party and his Fuhrerprinzip as the first duty of the citizen.

Romney opposes welfare spending and believes it is an individual's duty to provide for their own health care; Hitler maintained and strengthened an already considerable welfare state, providing generous incentives for families to have more children, excellent state-funded education and health programmes and sumptuous paid holidays for workers as part of his "Strength through Joy" initiative.

Hitler was a genocidal antisemite; Romney is a passionate and determined supporter of Israel.

Romney believes in freedom; Hitler was a socialist. The clue is in the name of his party the German National SOCIALIST WORKER'S party.

So if right wing means anything, where do those two men overlap?

I think you're all a bunch of Flufflebums.

So you figured out that while Hitler is generally labelled right wing, his views on the economy were actually left. Well done.

And Romney's views don't allign to that, since he is right wing no matter which sector you look at : economy, society, nationalism, the lot.

Qualitymark

Snickers Man wrote: »

I think you're all a bunch of Flufflebums.

Outed! Yes, I'm a paid-up member of the Flufflebums; march me away to the camps straightaway.

I'd agree with Shenshen that Hitler was economically left, socially right and nationalistic right.

His radically reformist solution to the social welfare problem (murdering people) suggests that he trended to the right, though.

folan

Snickers Man wrote: »

At the risk of somebody calling "Godwin's Law"

Shenshen wrote: »

To take an extreme example, Hitler was economically left, socially right and nationalistic right. Not entirely sure about his views on the environment, but given his love of nature etc, I'd suspect left.

sorry, but you were well beaten to it by Shenshen.

Seaneh

9959 wrote: »

Not socialism, but Right-Wing, 'NATIONAL SOCIALISM'.

That didn't take long...

dingdingdingding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!