Is Ireland right-wing or left-wing?

Shenshen

folan wrote: »

sorry, but you were well beaten to it by Shenshen.

Is it still a Godwin if no-one calls it, though?






I'll go sit in a forest wating for a tree to fall over, now. Or try and calp just one hand.

BOHtox

We have a marginal tax rate of over 50%, we own our banks, we borrow mass amounts of money, this money goes to very high welfare payments, we don't encourage competition and when a company fails we bail them out. We have a huge government, large public sector and any competition in areas such as transport, health and education is discouraged. FG are moving it slightly to the right but there's no doubt we're left wing!

Seaneh

folan wrote: »

sorry, but you were well beaten to it by Shenshen.

Who was in turn beaten to it by the poster I quoted above.

folan

Shenshen wrote: »

I'll go sit in a forest wating for a tree to fall over, now. Or try and calp just one hand.

if theres noone there to observe the tree falling, how could it have fallen at all?

Remmy

The west wing. Now that was a great show.

folan

Seaneh wrote: »

Who was in turn beaten to it by the poster I quoted above.

will keep a better eye on it in future!

Shenshen

folan wrote: »

if theres noone there to observe the tree falling, how could it have fallen at all?

I think the question in this thread needs to be did it fall to the left or to the right?

Qualitymark

Not trying to thread-creep - I don't want this to become another dull debate on the rights and wrongs of social welfare - but the reasons we have a huge social welfare bill in Ireland at the moment are because a lot of jobs have ceased to exist; a lot of self-employed people no longer have work because there aren't job-employed people with money to buy their services; and mass emigration of the young means that the ratio of dependent old to working young has tipped out of balance.

But please, please, let's keep to the point of whether ireland and Irish people *are* right- or left-wing generally, rather than how they *should* be.

Shenshen

BOHtox wrote: »

We have a marginal tax rate of over 50%, we own our banks, we borrow mass amounts of money, this money goes to very high welfare payments, we don't encourage competition and when a company fails we bail them out. We have a huge government, large public sector and any competition in areas such as transport, health and education is discouraged. FG are moving it slightly to the right but there's no doubt we're left wing!

By comparison, our corporation tax is one of the lowest in Europe, while our welfare entitlements are less than half that of some EU countries (European average welfare spending is 27%, Ireland spent just over 18% in 2009, which has been cut substantially since then), the education is mostly in the hands of the church or other organisations on which the governments seems to have little enough influence.
Civil rights lag behind the rest of Europe, and environmentalism is in its infancy here at best.

No doubt we're right wing.

Snickers Man

Shenshen wrote: »

So you figured out that while Hitler is generally labelled right wing, his views on the economy were actually left. Well done.

.

No. I worked out a long time ago that the two terms, which date back to the seating arrangements in a revolutionary council more than 200 years ago, don't mean anything any more and survive only as terms of abuse.

Catch up, you Mugglewump.

Snickers Man

Shenshen wrote: »

Is it still a Godwin if no-one calls it, though?

.

I think Godwin normally refers to somebody who likens a person or an action to the Nazis. My point was to highlight the differences, not the similarities.

Because there are none.

BOHtox

Shenshen wrote: »

By comparison, our corporation tax is one of the lowest in Europe, while our welfare entitlements are less than half that of some EU countries (European average welfare spending is 27%, Ireland spent just over 18% in 2009, which has been cut substantially since then), the education is mostly in the hands of the church or other organisations on which the governments seems to have little enough influence.
Civil rights lag behind the rest of Europe, and environmentalism is in its infancy here at best.

No doubt we're right wing.

Are you joking? pay attention a bit more to the news. Unemployment has increased radically since 2009. Our spending on welfare is now 33% of government expenditure. There are only 55 fee-paying schools in the state and most of them aren't even private. And I presume we're talking economically here.

ruthloss

We talk a great left wing., but we vote right wing.
It's the Irish way.

Qualitymark

ruthloss wrote: »

We talk a great left wing., but we vote right wing.
It's the Irish way.

Why do you think this is?

Myself, I'd think it is because there aren't really left-wing candidates; this may change if Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael merge, but I don't know.

Ireland (it seems to me) doesn't have the philosophical and intellectual group that France, say, or the Scandinavian countries have, to form the basis of left-wing candidates the voters might back.

Again, I'm no political expert, but it seems to me that we have two types of candidates here at the moment:

a) Daddy's Boy, from Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour, whose father or uncle was a politician

b) To the Barricades, from United Left et al, who are left-wing without any real ability for politics.

I attended the Dáil a couple of times in the public gallery and was shocked at the semi-literate, incoherent, constituency-centric level of debate. If you compare any modern debate (here's one chosen at random; ignore the initial statement written by civil servants and go on to what actual TDs say):

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/01/31/00004.asp

and compare this with 100 years ago:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1922/12/20/00006.asp

there's quite a difference, and it's probably even more noticeable in the Seanad debates.

Incidentally, just for fun, new research finds that how you bring up your children (ie, disciplinarian vs easygoing) can mould their later political attitudes:

http://www.psmag.com/politics/how-to-raise-a-little-liberal-or-conservative-48145/

Shenshen

BOHtox wrote: »

Are you joking? pay attention a bit more to the news. Unemployment has increased radically since 2009. Our spending on welfare is now 33% of government expenditure. There are only 55 fee-paying schools in the state and most of them aren't even private. And I presume we're talking economically here.

So we're paying out to more people, doesn't mean the money the individual receives actually went up, does it?
They are still receiving way less than in most other European countries.

Death and Taxes

BOHtox wrote: »

Are you joking? pay attention a bit more to the news. Unemployment has increased radically since 2009. Our spending on welfare is now 33% of government expenditure. There are only 55 fee-paying schools in the state and most of them aren't even private. And I presume we're talking economically here.

All fee paying schools are private and almost all of our primary schools and secondary schools are privatley owned by churches. We have almost no State owned primary schools and a minority of second level schools are state owned through the VEC system.
Time perhaps for you to do some basic research before telling others to pay attention.

barbiegirl

Ireland or Eire was founded on left wing philosphies, but really the question can't be answered correctly. left or right wing compared to who. We're much more left wong that the US for example and far more right wing than Cuba. In general internationally we thought of as left of centre, with subsidised health, housing, social welfare, transport, public services etc. We don't subscribe to the survival of the fittest mentality, such as the US where everything is in the hands of private individuals and corporations, but neither is everything state controlled.
I like our position on the scale in general and hope never to see it go too far in either direction.

Qualitymark

While there are few "fee-paying schools" in Ireland, nearly all schools now require parents to pay "voluntary" fees of one sort or another, and nearly all are owned by the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church also owns most of the hospitals, as I understand it (I'm open to correction on this) - doesn't the Sisters of Charity order, for instance, own the Mater?

Leftist

we're neither. Although we had some fantasy of left wing, it was eradicated during the boom. People got a taste and are far less likely to share the burden now.

if we ever were left wing we weren't doing it very well. Infrastructure and healtcare should be the first examples and they are a disgrace.

Eve_Dublin

Would love to see Ireland as a social democracy like Scandinavia. Most people I'm friends with feel the same. No idea what that indicates. Probably nothing. People attract like-minded people as friends, so it's to get the bigger picture when the people you mix with have a similar political outlook.

Duggys Housemate

dfx- wrote: »

Socially religious and conservative, right wing for me..

The 50's called and want their argument back.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

All fee paying schools are private and almost all of our primary schools and secondary schools are privatley owned by churches. We have almost no State owned primary schools and a minority of second level schools are state owned through the VEC system.
Time perhaps for you to do some basic research before telling others to pay attention.

the primary school ownership is largely irrelevant. They are free state schools to all purposes.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Would love to see Ireland as a social democracy like Scandinavia. Most people I'm friends with feel the same. No idea what that indicates. Probably nothing. People attract like-minded people as friends, so it's to get the bigger picture when the people you mix with have a similar political outlook.

Sweden is very boring.

Ireland has a huge State, and massive public service pensions and payments, it also has social welfare payments which are 5 times our neighbors. It also has a vibrant private sector, hardly something to be ashamed of.

Duggys Housemate

Leftist wrote: »

we're neither. Although we had some fantasy of left wing, it was eradicated during the boom. People got a taste and are far less likely to share the burden now.

if we ever were left wing we weren't doing it very well. Infrastructure and healtcare should be the first examples and they are a disgrace.

The infrastructure is pretty good, actually, roads and rail have come on. As for health, we tripled spending in the boom, it went on wages.

vote_for_sale

Shenshen wrote: »

So we're paying out to more people, doesn't mean the money the individual receives actually went up, does it?
They are still receiving way less than in most other European countries.

wellfare payments in ireland are more generous than in most european countries , thats not to say spending on what is known as wellfare ( healthcare is often lumped in under wellfare ) is not lower than some countries but unemployment benefits and pensions are considerabley higher in ireland , thier is also a much looser criteria for recieving benefits in ireland than in the likes of germany of scanadanavia , in those countries , the amount you receive goes down depending on how long you have been unemployed , thier is also a closer correlation between what you paid in during your working life and what you recieve once retired on the state pension , in ireland someone who never paid a penny in tax or perhaps even worked only recieves eleven euro per week less on the state pension than someone who paid PRSI

Duggys Housemate

vote_for_sale wrote: »

wellfare payments in ireland are more generous than in most european countries , thats not to say spending on what is known as wellfare ( healthcare is often lumped in under wellfare ) is not lower than some countries but unemployment benefits and pensions are considerabley higher in ireland , thier is also a much looser criteria for recieving benefits in ireland than in the likes of germany of scanadanavia , in those countries , the amount you receive goes down depending on how long you have been unemployed , thier is also a closer correlation between what you paid in during your working life and what you recieve once retired on the state pension , in ireland someone who never paid a penny in tax or perhaps even worked only recieves eleven euro per week less on the state pension than someone who paid PRSI

Yesh, the continental countries have a higher headline rate because they don't have a marxist-type system of welfare - to each according to their need - but an insurance type, the more you paid in the more you get out. That is less socialist, there, inequality stays when people are unemployed.

ElChe32

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Sweden is very boring.

Having lived in Sweden for the past 3 years, there is nothing boring about a fantastic healthcare system, transport system and education system....although queing for the alcohol store around major holidays does suck...but I know where I'm staying for the next few years!

9959

barbiegirl wrote: »

Ireland or Eire was founded on left wing philosphies,.... ....
I like our position on the scale in general and hope never to see it go too far in either direction.

Sorry for editing your post, but your opening line caught my eye.

Ireland or Eire was founded on left wing philosophies

That's what you get when you consult socialist fire-brands such as The Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuid when drafting the constitution of 1937.

vote_for_sale

on the question of whether ireland is left or right wing , its neither

ireland defies all logic when it comes to assessing the right wing - left wing dynamic , we are an idealogical free zone for the most part , populism in some shape or form is the overwhelming reality , that and me feinism , their is little appetite for paying more tax as a means of providing decent public services but then again , the state has proven time and time again to be wholey unreliable and wastefull when it comes to alloating resources , we also expect the state to provide us with only the best while at the same time being up in arms when someone suggests that everyone including those on low incomes should make some kind of contribution

Madam_X

Overall, it is neither extreme and that's fine. No need for a label for everything.

barbiegirl

9959 wrote: »

Sorry for editing your post, but your opening line caught my eye.

Ireland or Eire was founded on left wing philosophies

That's what you get when you consult socialist fire-brands such as The Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuid when drafting the constitution of 1937.

I would be talking more the likes of Connolly and those who fought 15 to 20 years previously. They are our founding fathers, not De Valera (the snake). At the time 1937 right wing philosphies had taken hold throughout western Europe not just in Ireland. Read the proclaimation, it is exclusively left wing.

freddiek

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The 50's called and want their argument back.




the primary school ownership is largely irrelevant. They are free state schools to all purposes.



Sweden is very boring.

Ireland has a huge State, and massive public service pensions and payments, it also has social welfare payments which are 5 times our neighbors. It also has a vibrant private sector, hardly something to be ashamed of.

Vibrant?? are u sure

Also the public pensions/wages as well as social welfare here are an embarrassment

vote_for_sale

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Would love to see Ireland as a social democracy like Scandinavia. Most people I'm friends with feel the same. No idea what that indicates. Probably nothing. People attract like-minded people as friends, so it's to get the bigger picture when the people you mix with have a similar political outlook.

its often not a good idea to draw conclusions from a relativley small pool of opinion , for example , boards.ie is hugely disproportionate to the left on economic and social issues

Duggys Housemate

ElChe32 wrote: »

Having lived in Sweden for the past 3 years, there is nothing boring about a fantastic healthcare system, transport system and education system....although queing for the alcohol store around major holidays does suck...but I know where I'm staying for the next few years!

PISA scores indicate that sweden and Ireland have similar scores. finland is the place to be for education.

Duggys Housemate

freddiek wrote: »

Vibrant?? are u sure

Also the public pensions/wages as well as social welfare here are an embarrassment

SO is that claim leftwing, or rightwing? Yes, Ireland's private sector, and export sector are strong,

Duggys Housemate

vote_for_sale wrote: »

its often not a good idea to draw conclusions from a relativley small pool of opinion , for example , boards.ie is hugely disproportionate to the left on economic and social issues

except for travelers, scumbags, chavs and junkies?

vote_for_sale

9959 wrote: »

Sorry for editing your post, but your opening line caught my eye.

Ireland or Eire was founded on left wing philosophies

That's what you get when you consult socialist fire-brands such as The Archbishop of Dublin, John Charles McQuid when drafting the constitution of 1937.

we kicked out an imperilist power and set about taking large tracts of land off wealthy anglos , thats pretty left wing , develera was socially conservative ( like most people at the time ) but was very left wing economically

vote_for_sale

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

except for travelers, scumbags, chavs and junkies?

sorry , not sure what you mean

ElChe32

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

PISA scores indicate that sweden and Ireland have similar scores. finland is the place to be for education.

Well I'm not complaining about a free masters degree from a highly ranked univeristy a hell of a lot more job opportunities and a much easier language to learn (have you honestly heard Finnish?!)...but yeah i'll take ACTUALLY living here over PISA score any day

Duggys Housemate

vote_for_sale wrote: »

sorry , not sure what you mean

I mean there is little liberalism on boards.

Duggys Housemate

ElChe32 wrote: »

Well I'm not complaining about a free masters degree from a highly ranked univeristy a hell of a lot more job opportunities and a much easier language to learn (have you honestly heard Finnish?!)...but yeah i'll take ACTUALLY living here over PISA score any day

Nice anecdote.

old hippy

vote_for_sale wrote: »

its often not a good idea to draw conclusions from a relativley small pool of opinion , for example , boards.ie is hugely disproportionate to the left on economic and social issues

That's quite a bold observation after only 6 posts

If I was to take the political temperature, using boards, I'd be of the opinion that Ireland is right wing.

And I'd be wrong, I hope

vote_for_sale

old hippy wrote: »

That's quite a bold observation after only 6 posts

If I was to take the political temperature, using boards, I'd be of the opinion that Ireland is right wing.

And I'd be wrong, I hope

i guess some people see what they want to see

vote_for_sale

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I mean there is little liberalism on boards.

your joking , its a liberal lefty pc love in everyday of the week

old hippy

vote_for_sale wrote: »

i guess some people see what they want to see

And what have you seen, during your 1 whole day on boards?:)

vote_for_sale

old hippy wrote: »

And what have you seen, during your 1 whole day on boards?:)

cut the foreplay and run to the teacher like a good boy , never a shortage of tell tales on boards , thats for sure

Madam_X

vote_for_sale wrote: »

your joking , its a liberal lefty pc love in everyday of the week

"Liberal lefty pc love-in" no doubt meaning crazy stuff like "Don't judge all muslims; plenty of immigrants are hard-working and decent contributors to Irish society" etc.

Fairly vocal far right lunatic contingent too though.

Duggys Housemate

I'd say vote will have a short shelflife.

9959

barbiegirl wrote: »

I would be talking more the likes of Connolly and those who fought 15 to 20 years previously. They are our founding fathers, not De Valera (the snake). At the time 1937 right wing philosphies had taken hold throughout western Europe not just in Ireland. Read the proclaimation, it is exclusively left wing.

I believe Pearse and his brand of ultra-nationalism would have overwhelmed Connolly and his ilk.
The reasoning would have went something like this "Let's get the Brits out first, then we'll worry about all that socialist stuff"
Regarding the proclomation "Irishmen and Irishwomen: In the name of GOD....
That's enough 'exclusively left wing' for me thanks.

old hippy

vote_for_sale wrote: »

cut the foreplay and run to the teacher like a good boy , never a shortage of tell tales on boards , thats for sure

What on earth are you talking about?

And just what exactly have you learned in your one day here?

Duggys Housemate

9959 wrote: »

I believe Pearse and his brand of ultra-nationalism would have overwhelmed Connolly and his ilk.
The reasoning would have went something like this "Let's get the Brits out first, then we'll worry about all that socialist stuff"
Regarding the proclomation "Irishmen and Irishwomen: In the name of GOD....
That's enough 'exclusively left wing' for me thanks.

funny enough, you could be socialist and a believer back in the day.

kupus

Ah here, FFS....any further left Ireland would be a commie/socialist hybrid....hold on a minute

A government with an overpaid, overbloated public service, canoodling with the PR savvy, interest only in members lobby group known as Unions.

A judicial system that insures repeat offenders are represented by free lawyer services(free to the offender, not the taxpayer mind) Would the judicial guys like a revamp of the way law is done, like f88k they would, a merry-go-round ensures they get paid regularly. (for the chosen few of course, example... all the tribunals that people have forgotten already.)

A welfare system that can sustain you from the moment of life to your final breath.

A country where owning a businesses marks you out as a dirty money grabbing capitalist.

oh and for the sucker punch, should your hard working business that you work on for 16-18 hrs a day 7 days a week go under......
No support from the government. NONE, ZILCH, NADA. RIEN.......
so in turn WHY would you create something that can give you and others jobs when you can go from cradle to the grave been taken care of by the government.


TL;DR your ma.