Article: The All Season Tyre Myth

Matt Simis

Came across this hosted on some Merc site, its Popular Mechanics (a mag I only bought once but really should subscribe) article on All Seasons from 2011. Apparently 97% of tyres sold in the US are on All Seasons. So unlike here the comparison is between Winters and All Seasons, not Winters vs Summers:

As you might guess, its not a good showing for All Seasons, even on their AWD test mule. Whats nice in the review is they go as far as to test the same vehicle in both AWD and FWD and with both All Seasons and Winters. The tyres are both from Goodyear.

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/general/All-Season_Tire_Myth.pdf


Now Im not saying we should take their findings wholesale and apply here (its a lot colder in Minnesota Im told ) but since I know people are considering All Seasons here, worth reading.


PS: The paper mag layout doesnt translate well to vertical scrolling, but the tests are in the graphical sections labelled 1-4.

Supergurrier

Personally i would only bother with decent summers in our temperate climate

Nissan doctor

Ireland has had no reason for all season or winter tyres in the first 100 odd years of motoring here and its still the same now.

Its the combination of a couple of freak winters and the internet that has all season tyres as the new buzzword.

corkgsxr

Test don't tell ya much. All it says is all season isn't as good as dedicated winter tires. Bit obvious isn't it

I'd like to see is add a summer tire so you can see is there any benefit at all to all season.

I'd bet the summer would perform very badly.

But to be a really good test you need to add summer vs all season in warm weather

In Canada the hankook optimo is so good in winter it can be left on all year

Matt Simis

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Ireland has had no reason for all season or winter tyres in the first 100 odd years of motoring here and its still the same now.

Its the combination of a couple of freak winters and the internet that has all season tyres as the new buzzword.

Well, thats a wee bit of an exaggeration now isnt it? Looking at Met Eireann's historical figures from 1971 to 2000 instantly disprove your 100 year theory. Im not saying whats needed or not, merely what benefit or not something is.

The lowest air temperature was -19.1°C measured at Markree Castle, Co. Sligo on 16th January 1881 while the lowest observed 20th century air temperature was -18.8°C recorded at Lullymore, Co. Kildare on 2nd January 1979.

These stats are pre-Internet and pre-Freak Winters of 2009-2011 (so the average should be skewed even lower). I also posted the warmer Dublin / East Coast figures, but the inland temp figures are even lower so, statistically, offically, no bull$hit internet scaremongering = Ireland officially has a temp range of -15c to +14 4months of the year, with the majority of that period spent in the single digits below or just above freezing.

We can all recall how it was totally fine to have no headrests, seatbelts, catalytic converters, ABS, collapsible steering wheels, child seats, laminated glass etc over the last 50years/my day/random period, but statistics prove these things were not fine, no more than claiming we have no usage at all for even considering climate on tyres.

CJhaughey

I just fitted a set of Nokian 'All Weather +' just last week, I am a big fan of Nokians any company that has a number of test tracks above the arctic circle is pretty serious about winter tyres, and judging by the awards their summer tyres are very good as well.
They market these tyres as All weather tyres not all season, although they do list them as being winter tyres on their website.
Its like anything, its always a compromise.
The Nokians look nothing like the All Seasons shown in that article, they have the same tread as the winter tyres but a harder compound than the winter.
I will have over 20k miles done this year so tyre life is a factor for me.

shedweller

Given the abundance of wet weather here, along with a huge amount of muddy back roads, i would have thought all seasons would be a good tyre for most occasions and users.

Nissan doctor

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well, thats a wee bit of an exaggeration now isnt it? Looking at Met Eireann's historical figures from 1971 to 2000 instantly disprove your 100 year theory. Im not saying whats needed or not, merely what benefit or not something is.




These stats are pre-Internet and pre-Freak Winters of 2009-2011 (so the average should be skewed even lower). I also posted the warmer Dublin / East Coast figures, but the inland temp figures are even lower so, statistically, offically, no bull$hit internet scaremongering = Ireland officially has a temp range of -15c to +14 4months of the year, with the majority of that period spent in the single digits below or just above freezing.

We can all recall how it was totally fine to have no headrests, seatbelts, catalytic converters, ABS, collapsible steering wheels, child seats, laminated glass etc over the last 50years/my day/random period, but statistics prove these things were not fine, no more than claiming we have no usage at all for even considering climate on tyres.

We may have a range of -15 to +14 but what is the average temperature that we get over those 4 months?

Either way, I do agree with most of what you say regarding safety features etc and I am not for, for one second, saying that we don't get conditions where all season tyres would offer an improvement in this country. What I'm saying is that there is still little or no mainstream advertising of all season tyres in Ireland so the current hype about them has come from the internet, fuelled by the couple of recent bad winters.

I really don't think that its a simple as all season -v- summer tyres either though. The amount of cars driving on the cheapest tyres available who would be running with a huge amount less grip then good quality summer tyres over the same conditions needs to be considered too.

Basically, my argument is that someone driving a well maintained car, in a manner which suits the conditions and with good quality summer tyres will have no problem getting around in all but the worst conditions that we encounter in this country. The vast majority of people who got stuck in the bad winters we had were down to a complete lack of knowledge and understanding of how to drive in the conditions, not due to a lack of available grip.

Of course there are situations where people would benefit much more climate specific tyres like those living in mountainous area's etc but the majority of urban dwellers who will be driving on fairly smooth, fairly level housing estates and on gritted main roads should have no need for the expense of a second set of tyres and all season tyres are a compromise all round meaning your not getting the best of summer grip or winter grip.

Matt Simis

Nissan doctor wrote: »

We may have a range of -15 to +14 but what is the average temperature that we get over those 4 months?

Well "average temp" is kinda meaningless as the lowest temps coincide with peak driving periods (morning and evening), a peak temp in the middle of the day raises the average temp, but who cares?
That aside, MET make it kinda annoying to see the answer directly, but this graph shows the number of "Frost Days" Ireland has got since 1880:

A "Frost Day" is a day when the Air Temp is below 0. Looks like average maybe 60days, peak 80 days per year. Again thats warmer East Coast weather, it always shows less extremes on hot and cold periods than everywhere else. Ignoring the debatable +7 change over point (thats like 4mths of the year), thats a lot of days of freezing weather in Ireland, more than we tend to visualize/remember I think.

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Of course there are situations where people would benefit much more climate specific tyres like those living in mountainous area's etc but the majority of urban dwellers who will be driving on fairly smooth, fairly level housing estates and on gritted main roads should have no need for the expense of a second set of tyres and all season tyres are a compromise all round meaning your not getting the best of summer grip or winter grip.

Kinda agree, but some of the worst situations were on inclines in housing estates in recent years. Granted no one really gets hurt, but they also cannot get to/from Schools and their homes. Personally dont live in an estate, down a narrow single country lane, no gritting in the area at all and have to drive 50km to these smooth roads you speak of.

The Popular Mechanics article makes a really good point on the expense of a second set of tyres - "dont consider a second set of seasonal tyres as doubling your cost, consider them as halving your wear".


If we agree that over a 5year period, owning both Winters and Summers costs effectively nothing as you increase the lifespan of your primary tyres.. then it becomes hard to argue against having a "free" set of tyres that totally rock in those 60+ days of subzero temps doesnt it?
I mean there is no debate there is a night and day safety increase, stress reduction etc, cost nothing and can be put to good usage. I dont get the problem, of all the stupid things people do expense wise with cars, this seems like genuine use of funds, a no-brainer for anyone planning ahead. If you have space for them in the shed/home I guess, thats the only factor I think comes into it.

And for the Car Enthusiast, it keeps those expensive Performance Summer tyres in tip top shape and dramatically increases their lifespan.. thats got to be worth it alone right?


PS: This year I dont even have a Winter tyre set! Sold them with the Audi. Considering it though.

corkgsxr

CJhaughey wrote: »

I just fitted a set of Nokian 'All Weather +' just last week, I am a big fan of Nokians any company that has a number of test tracks above the arctic circle is pretty serious about winter tyres, and judging by the awards their summer tyres are very good as well.
They market these tyres as All weather tyres not all season, although they do list them as being winter tyres on their website.
Its like anything, its always a compromise.
The Nokians look nothing like the All Seasons shown in that article, they have the same tread as the winter tyres but a harder compound than the winter.
I will have over 20k miles done this year so tyre life is a factor for me.

try. lassa tires. just took them off a 02 d4d avensis. 23k miles but brilliant grip, used them in 2 winters and couldnt fault them.

Del2005

Matt Simis wrote: »

Kinda agree, but some of the worst situations were on inclines in housing estates in recent years. Granted no one really gets hurt, but they also cannot get to/from Schools and their homes. Personally dont live in an estate, down a narrow single country lane, no gritting in the area at all and have to drive 50km to these smooth roads you speak of.

A lot of the problems was bad driving not tyres. Simple stuff like waiting for the car ahead to get up the hill before you start, getting enough momentum etc would have stopped a lot of these issues and as Nissan Doctor said they could have been on ditch finders. If they can't grip in the summer what hope have they when there's compacted snow and ice on the road?

Yes winters/all seasons are a good idea, but people still need to drive correctly for the conditions. Just look at the amount of muppets in 4x4s on road tyres, because proper tyres make too much noise and drink fuel like it's going out of fashion, who got stuck on roads where people in ordinary cars on summers where getting by.

Matt Simis

Del2005 wrote: »

Yes winters/all seasons are a good idea, but people still need to drive correctly for the conditions. Just look at the amount of muppets in 4x4s on road tyres, because proper tyres make too much noise and drink fuel like it's going out of fashion, who got stuck on roads where people in ordinary cars on summers where getting by.

See thats the thing, I see these as totally unrelated. Yeah lots of people cannot drive well and misjudge their abilities. But that has no more relevance here than when discussing how $hit and dangerous Chinese tyres are in the wet.

No matter how good we are (in our minds or reality!) our our parents were without technology, it doesnt change the fact the worlds best premium Summer tyres are going to perform pretty diabolically on snow/-3c weather. Im absolutely agree the pro-drivers out there can make some progress where others sit spinning wheels, but the same pro-driver is a Rally Star on Winters and the idiot who cant drive is making progress home and not sitting upside in a ditch. At the very least you want the idiots to have all the best parts they can to ensure they dont crash into you. Lets not get into "force them to learn" as experience/intelligence is not something that can be "bought" and installed.

Besides, Driving Experience is not a replacement for preparation and equipment, experience augments equipment.

jeltz

Matt Simis wrote: »

Came across this hosted on some Merc site, its Popular Mechanics (a mag I only bought once but really should subscribe) article on All Seasons from 2011. Apparently 97% of tyres sold in the US are on All Seasons. So unlike here the comparison is between Winters and All Seasons, not Winters vs Summers:

Easy mistake to make the comparison actually is between Winters vs Summers, summers that have a small change to their tread to do a bit better in light snow.

All Season tyres that you get here in Europe are called All Weather tyres in the US. All Season tyres in the US are Summer tyres here. That is why Nokian call their all season tyre All Weather Plus so North Americans don't confuse it with an all season summer tyre.

The test has nothing at all to do with European All Season tyres!

Matt Simis wrote: »

As you might guess, its not a good showing for All Seasons, even on their AWD test mule. Whats nice in the review is they go as far as to test the same vehicle in both AWD and FWD and with both All Seasons and Winters. The tyres are both from Goodyear.

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/general/All-Season_Tire_Myth.pdf


Now Im not saying we should take their findings wholesale and apply here (its a lot colder in Minnesota Im told ) but since I know people are considering All Seasons here, worth reading.

Only if they can find summer tyres with treads like the US all season tyre.

The European All Season tyre will perform like the Winter tyre, both will have the severe snow service symbol. The US All Season tyre does not have that symbol. The Nokian has the symbol and has been sucessfully used year round in Minnesota and Canada like the competitor Hankook Optimo 4S already mentioned, also with the symbol. I use the Hankook year round and recommend it.

So the thing to remember is to look for the severe snow service symbol that means the All Season tyre has the same qualities as the Winter tyre on the snow. The difference to the Winter tyre is the All Season tyre compound is for all year use here, in summer temperatures and in winter temperatures.

SouperComputer

Matt Simis wrote: »

(its a lot colder in Minnesota Im told

It was a whopper 5C this morning. Soon it'll be anything from -10 to -30. Usually get minimum 40" of snow over the winter.

Haven't read the article but "all seasons" are definitely a compromise. How you could expect them to be anything otherwise is beyond me.

jeltz

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well "average temp" is kinda meaningless as the lowest temps coincide with peak driving periods (morning and evening), a peak temp in the middle of the day raises the average temp, but who cares?
That aside, MET make it kinda annoying to see the answer directly, but this graph shows the number of "Frost Days" Ireland has got since 1880:

A "Frost Day" is a day when the Air Temp is below 0. Looks like average maybe 60days, peak 80 days per year. Again thats warmer East Coast weather, it always shows less extremes on hot and cold periods than everywhere else. Ignoring the debatable +7 change over point (thats like 4mths of the year), thats a lot of days of freezing weather in Ireland, more than we tend to visualize/remember I think.

Excellent points.

I think if more people realized that they would see why it is safer to have the european type of All Season tyre on all year round.

Matt Simis wrote: »

The Popular Mechanics article makes a really good point on the expense of a second set of tyres - "dont consider a second set of seasonal tyres as doubling your cost, consider them as halving your wear".


If we agree that over a 5year period, owning both Winters and Summers costs effectively nothing as you increase the lifespan of your primary tyres.. then it becomes hard to argue against having a "free" set of tyres that totally rock in those 60+ days of subzero temps doesnt it?
I mean there is no debate there is a night and day safety increase, stress reduction etc, cost nothing and can be put to good usage. I dont get the problem, of all the stupid things people do expense wise with cars, this seems like genuine use of funds, a no-brainer for anyone planning ahead. If you have space for them in the shed/home I guess, thats the only factor I think comes into it.

With the European all season tyres it is cheaper. You only need one set of tyres, you dont have to buy rims, no need to buy tools to change over at home or pay someone to change over the tyres. If winter snow or ice hits early before you would have put on your winter tyres you dont have to worry if your tyres are all season you are ready to go. If you live in the countryside the extra traction is useful in mud, muddy water and autumn leaves because they are marked as M+S mud and snow tyres.

jeltz

SouperComputer wrote: »

It was a whopper 5C this morning. Soon it'll be anything from -10 to -30. Usually get minimum 40" of snow over the winter.

Haven't read the article but "all seasons" are definitely a compromise. How you could expect them to be anything otherwise is beyond me.

Have a look at reviews by Canadians of the Hankook Optimo 4S http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/0041732P/hankook-hankook-optimo-4s-reviews/reviews.htm?sort=helpfulness then think about the temperatures and snow conditions we have here. Where you are or in Canada it may be more of a compromise but there are lots of happy customers in Canada. Our winters are so unimpressive no matter how much snow we get compared to Canada it is not a compromise. I have driven on them here for a couple of years and there is no compromise here summer or winter. Here it is more than good enough!!

Matt Simis

jeltz wrote: »

Easy mistake to make the comparison actually is between Winters vs Summers, summers that have a small change to their tread to do a bit better in light snow.
All Season tyres that you get here in Europe are called All Weather tyres in the US. All Season tyres in the US are Summer tyres here. That is why Nokian call their all season tyre All Weather Plus so North Americans don't confuse it with an all season summer tyre.

Hmm. I dont think its that cut and dry. The problem as I see it is "All Season" tyres are not a "standard", they do not require anything more than M+S threads/symbols. Even that isnt mandated.
Also, what are US "Summer" tyres when "translated" to European? Looking at Goodyears US site they definitely differentiate Summers from All Seasons there.

Im thinking what you suggest is that US All Seasons/All Weathers do not have to have the Snowflake Symbol, which is true but I would hold the same as true here, tyres sold as All Seasons do not require Snowflake rating.

My own experience with locally purchased All Seasons was poor and they definitely had the M+S Symbol but not the Snowflake. They were Falken ZE-512's
http://www.tirereviewsandmore.com/falken-ziex-ze-512-reviews,-specs-and-information.php

I dont think its correct to state that "US All Seasons are EU Summer tyres", it might be correct to say that many US All Seasons are "similar compound" to EU Summer tyres but with an adapted Mud / Snow thread pattern"
But some US All Seasons (like the Falkens linked) with the M+S symbol are exactly the same as when sold in the EU as.. All Seasons.

To make things so much more confusing, Im sure you are aware, but for a number of years now Transport Canada (Canada being the country that originated the Snowflake symbol) has warned thay having the symbol no longer means its a true winter performer, its now being put on any old M+S tyre.
http://autos.ca.msn.com/specials/winter-driving-guide/article.aspx?cp-documentid=19293560

The European All Season tyre will perform like the Winter tyre, both will have the severe snow service symbol. The US All Season tyre does not have that symbol. peratures and in winter temperatures.

Is there really a regulation that forces EU All Seasons to have the Snow Flake Symbol (and rating)? As I said, I bought my All Seasons here, sold as such, no Snow Flake and crap performance.

I would consider any tyre with the SnowFlake (and logically M+S) as a Winter tyre, despite what it maybe branded as. A tyre without the Snow Flake but with M+S as an All Season. But I wouldnt call a tyre with M+S Thread pattern a [US] Summer tyre, which seems to be indirectly what you are saying?


PS: If EU branded All Seasons officially require Snowflake rating, then thats awesome news and we should edit the Wiki entry on All Seasons! People would still have to confirm they are buying Euro All Seasons and not ROW/US All Seasons though..

jeltz

Matt Simis wrote: »

Hmm. I dont think its that cut and dry. The problem as I see it is "All Season" tyres are not a "standard", they do not require anything more than M+S threads/symbols. Even that isnt mandated.
Also, what are US "Summer" tyres when "translated" to European? Looking at Goodyears US site they definitely differentiate Summers from All Seasons there. Im thinking what you suggest is that US All Seasons/All Weathers do not have to have the Snowflake Symbol, which is true but I would hold the same as true here, tyres sold as All Seasons do not require Snowflake rating.

My own experience with locally purchased All Seasons was poor and they definitely had the M+S Symbol but not the Snowflake. They were Falken ZE-512's
http://www.tirereviewsandmore.com/falken-ziex-ze-512-reviews,-specs-and-information.php

I dont think its correct to state that "US All Seasons are EU Summer tyres", it might be correct to say that many US All Seasons are "similar compound" to EU Summer tyres but with an adapted Mud / Snow thread pattern"
But some US All Seasons (like the Falkens linked) with the M+S symbol are exactly the same as when sold in the EU as.. All Seasons.

I agree, standardization would make life easier.

The US and Canada has different ranges of tyres to what we have here in Europe. They also seem to have a wider range than we have. But as you say some are the same! So I think it is difficult to make easy comparisons. I think the only way round it is to ignore the US ones because there are so many differences and only look at the ones we can get in Europe. Otherwise there will be too many questions and no clear answers.

The Falkens may not have been great at least they were not ditchfinders.

Matt Simis wrote: »

To make things so much more confusing, Im sure you are aware, but for a number of years now Transport Canada (Canada being the country that originated the Snowflake symbol) has warned thay having the symbol no longer means its a true winter performer, its now being put on any old M+S tyre.
http://autos.ca.msn.com/specials/winter-driving-guide/article.aspx?cp-documentid=19293560

I heard this before somewhere. Its not obvious but the snowflake also appears on its own sometimes and that is not very useful either. Some governments like Sweden have lists of approved tyres, I can't find a link but the Hankook Optimo 4S was on the list I saw. I don't know how they made the list it looked like a list of all the reputable tyre companies tyres.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Is there really a regulation that forces EU All Seasons to have the Snow Flake Symbol (and rating)? As I said, I bought my All Seasons here, sold as such, no Snow Flake and crap performance.

It is down to the manufacturers and the rubber association of Canada reference tyre. They do police the snowflake and mountain symbol in Canada by publishing a list of approved tyres on their website. The only cover tyres available in Canada so cant cover every good tyre available elsewhere. There should be some EU regulation involved I think.

Matt Simis wrote: »

I would consider any tyre with the SnowFlake (and logically M+S) as a Winter tyre, despite what it maybe branded as. A tyre without the Snow Flake but with M+S as an All Season. But I wouldnt call a tyre with M+S Thread pattern a [US] Summer tyre, which seems to be indirectly what you are saying?

I think M+S is not helpful as it once was. The snowflake inside the mountain has to be there with the M+S, you need both together. Like in the picture http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/tyre-basics/how-to-read-a-tyre-side-wall The tyre compound is also important as it needs to be flexible in winter but not as flexible as a full winter tyre because it does not get to -30C here. A snowflake inside the mountain tyre will have the right sort of compound.

Where the M+S on its own is ok is the aggressive SUV and land rover type of tyres that are for off road use. You can see by looking at it the tread is M+S and the treads obviously designed to bite into the mud. Passenger car tyres are not aggressive like that there is no mistaking the two kinds of tyre. They are not off road winter tyres unless they have the snowflake in mountain symbol as well and that shows the compound is good for winter use.

As I said earlier I think there are too many different kinds of tyres in the US to get straightforward answers to the questions that come up.

Matt Simis wrote: »

PS: If EU branded All Seasons officially require Snowflake rating, then thats awesome news and we should edit the Wiki entry on All Seasons! People would still have to confirm they are buying Euro All Seasons and not ROW/US All Seasons though..

That is an excellent idea. The snowflake and mountain symbol is already ok if on a tyre by a well known good manufacturer like Continental, Nokian, Michelin, Hankook, Bridgestone etc and if the EU was involved with a CE mark scheme we could be sure any marked tyre is what it is meant to be. For now I think the only way to be sure is to pick a tyre from 1 to 7 off this list they will have been well tested on snow, wet and dry and have been available for years with good reviews from buyers. http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
It is a small list of tyres. But you can be sure they are going to be good and they will do what you expect them to do.

Matt Simis

Thanks for the detail jeltz, I guess I will have to redact my comments on All Seasons and limit them only to the non-Snowflake types. :pac:

For our climate, Snowflaked All Seasons do indeed sound ideal!

September1

They are better than summer tyres if temp drops below 7C:

At this temperature the rubber compounds in summer tires are getting hard enough so that the performance starts to decrease, whereas winter tires are still soft (and continue being soft to well below freezing temperatures) and start to perform better.

http://www.thoughtsbypilvi.com/index.php?page_req=5&postid=388&wpauthor=Seppo&posttitle=the-benefits-of-winter-tires

jeltz

If you go out and feel them when it is below freezing they feel 'soft', summer tyres feel hard.

(the link goes on to recommend Nordic tyres they are for -40C winters not our winters!)

jeltz

It looks like EU regulations to protect the snowflake and mountain symbol arrived at the start of November.

http://www.commercialmotor.com/latest-news/goodyear-make-sure-you-have-the-right-winter-tyres

gooner99

jeltz wrote: »

Have a look at reviews by Canadians of the Hankook Optimo 4S http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/0041732P/hankook-hankook-optimo-4s-reviews/reviews.htm?sort=helpfulness then think about the temperatures and snow conditions we have here. Where you are or in Canada it may be more of a compromise but there are lots of happy customers in Canada. Our winters are so unimpressive no matter how much snow we get compared to Canada it is not a compromise. I have driven on them here for a couple of years and there is no compromise here summer or winter. Here it is more than good enough!!

Notice how they seem to get tyre wear guarantees with tyres in the us/canada and they are talking of amazing wear that we could only dream about over here.different compounds maybe?

Casati

Matt Simis wrote: »

Came across this hosted on some Merc site, its Popular Mechanics (a mag I only bought once but really should subscribe) article on All Seasons from 2011. Apparently 97% of tyres sold in the US are on All Seasons. So unlike here the comparison is between Winters and All Seasons, not Winters vs Summers:

As you might guess, its not a good showing for All Seasons, even on their AWD test mule. Whats nice in the review is they go as far as to test the same vehicle in both AWD and FWD and with both All Seasons and Winters. The tyres are both from Goodyear.

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/general/All-Season_Tire_Myth.pdf


Now Im not saying we should take their findings wholesale and apply here (its a lot colder in Minnesota Im told ) but since I know people are considering All Seasons here, worth reading.


PS: The paper mag layout doesnt translate well to vertical scrolling, but the tests are in the graphical sections labelled 1-4.

What are classified as All Season tyres? I have All Weather tires with Snow Flakes markings and think that the U.S. tyres are not the same?

gooner99

jeltz wrote: »

It looks like EU regulations to protect the snowflake and mountain symbol arrived at the start of November.

http://www.commercialmotor.com/latest-news/goodyear-make-sure-you-have-the-right-winter-tyres

There have been reports of the use of the snowflake symbol being abused, with some tyres that sport them not passing the basic tests. hopefully this will now be resolved.

Matt Simis

Casati wrote: »

What are classified as All Season tyres? I have All Weather tires with Snow Flakes markings and think that the U.S. tyres are not the same?

Read the rest of the thread man!

Popoutman

I've found my Goodyear Vector Four Seasons to slip less on the cold wet surfaces that we have started having over the past few weeks, compared with the non-snowflaked premium tyres I had on the car this time last year. I've found more grip with a light coating of frost on the ground as well, last year I knew I was slipping at a particular speed on one of my local roundabouts at the same time of the day with similar conditions.
So far, I'm very happy with the tyre choice I've made, and I look forwards to the colder weather if we get any - the hill up to the entrance of the estate where I live will be a good indication of the change in capability with the tyres.

gooner99

Popoutman wrote: »

I've found my Goodyear Vector Four Seasons to slip less on the cold wet surfaces that we have started having over the past few weeks, compared with the non-snowflaked premium tyres I had on the car this time last year. I've found more grip with a light coating of frost on the ground as well, last year I knew I was slipping at a particular speed on one of my local roundabouts at the same time of the day with similar conditions.
So far, I'm very happy with the tyre choice I've made, and I look forwards to the colder weather if we get any - the hill up to the entrance of the estate where I live will be a good indication of the change in capability with the tyres.

These are said to be one of the best of the few snowflake rated all weathers, nearly bought them myself before i got a spare set of rims. they do pretty well even in winter tyre tests, quite often better than full winter budgets.

gooner99

How are you guys getting on with your all season tyres with snowflake. Have you tried a few different ones and if so which would you rate?

Looking for a couple myself for the winter.

CiniO

gooner99 wrote: »

How are you guys getting on with your all season tyres with snowflake. Have you tried a few different ones and if so which would you rate?

Looking for a couple myself for the winter.

All season tyres with snowflake are pretty much in short just winter tyres, aren't they?

Zubeneschamali

gooner99 wrote: »

Notice how they seem to get tyre wear guarantees with tyres in the us/canada and they are talking of amazing wear that we could only dream about over here.different compounds maybe?

Tyre manufacturers have to balance grip, wear and rolling resistance. There is no magic compound.

Americans buy tyres which last, because they drive sh!te cars and trucks that don't handle anyway, so they are not so worried about grip, and gas is cheap.

Popoutman

CiniO wrote: »

All season tyres with snowflake are pretty much in short just winter tyres, aren't they?

Not really. True winter-only tyres (snowflaked) will turn to cheese in the warm weather and will wear very quickly. Great for leaving black lines on roads.

All seasons are supposed to be suitable for warmer weather as well, where winter-only tires turn to cheese and wear very quickly. All-seasons will have lower wear rates in summer conditions than winters, while having close to the same cold-weather grip.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Tyre manufacturers have to balance grip, wear and rolling resistance. There is no magic compound.

The fourth balance item is cost. It is certainly possible to have high grip, low wear, and low rolling resistance - but it does cost.

I've found my tyre choice to be one of the better ones I've made on my car over the decade and 200,000km I've put on it! I had to replace the front pair due to a suspension misalignment when a trackrod end wore, the rears were the same ones that I had on when I wrote my previous reply in this thread. Apart from that alignment-caused wear the overall wear has been slow with them, and the grip cold and hot has been damned good. Very much worth the cost, and I cannot recommend highly enough.

Zubeneschamali

Popoutman wrote: »

The fourth balance item is cost. It is certainly possible to have high grip, low wear, and low rolling resistance - but it does cost.

I've always found that expensive performance tyres wear faster than boggo tyres.

Because they prioritize grip over wear.

shedweller

Popoutman wrote: »

Not really. True winter-only tyres (snowflaked) will turn to cheese in the warm weather and will wear very quickly. Great for leaving black lines on roads.

All seasons are supposed to be suitable for warmer weather as well, where winter-only tires turn to cheese and wear very quickly. All-seasons will have lower wear rates in summer conditions than winters, while having close to the same cold-weather grip.



The fourth balance item is cost. It is certainly possible to have high grip, low wear, and low rolling resistance - but it does cost.

I've found my tyre choice to be one of the better ones I've made on my car over the decade and 200,000km I've put on it! I had to replace the front pair due to a suspension misalignment when a trackrod end wore, the rears were the same ones that I had on when I wrote my previous reply in this thread. Apart from that alignment-caused wear the overall wear has been slow with them, and the grip cold and hot has been damned good. Very much worth the cost, and I cannot recommend highly enough.

I would like to know what tyres you use.

CiniO

Popoutman wrote: »

Not really. True winter-only tyres (snowflaked) will turn to cheese in the warm weather and will wear very quickly. Great for leaving black lines on roads.

All seasons are supposed to be suitable for warmer weather as well, where winter-only tires turn to cheese and wear very quickly. All-seasons will have lower wear rates in summer conditions than winters, while having close to the same cold-weather grip.

What I meant was that I though that only proper winter tyres were allowed to have snowflake symbol on them.
All-season tyres can have M+S marking though, but not snowflake.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

CJhaughey

CiniO wrote: »

What I meant was that I though that only proper winter tyres were allowed to have snowflake symbol on them.
All-season tyres can have M+S marking though, but not snowflake.

Or maybe I'm wrong.

I had BFG all terrain with Snowflake symbol, these are not winter tyres although they work very well on 4x4 in winter.

Caliden

They need to start selling 'wets' akin to F1 tyres.

No need here for 'slicks' or 'intermediates'

BigEejit

And no one mentioned that the car they were testing was a 1.7 ton suv (fwd, dont know what awd weight is) driving on snow that was on top of ice with an air temp between -8 and -3 Celsius? No flipping wonder all seasons lost against winters. Why didn't they test on a normal car on a wet road at +10 Celsius? Or indeed all seasons versus summer tyres.

God dammit, just noticed thread is from 2012

ardmacha

Some places have a very large temperature variation, in continental regions temps of -25C to +35C may be encountered every year. In this places there is a huge difference between winter and summer and the two tyre approach is good. In Ireland the air temperature variation is more typically -7C to 25C (road temps will vary more than this), so an all-season approach pitched in this range is a good idea. Provided such a tyre has a good wet performance, somewhat better snow performance than a summer and no major decline on a warm day, it suits Ireland perfectly.

GTE

Previous Research
I remember when I originally researched this area back in 2008. Apparently, until fairly recently, All Season tyres sold State-side were rubbish. More of a marketing gimmick than anything else. They carried the M&S marking, which didn't mean much. They were also called All Weather, they used to be interchangeable terms. They probably still are, aside from a select few.

When the Snowflake symbol was first introduced, then things changed as the Snowflake test was more strict. This lead to the development of the Hankook H730 and Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons which, according to tyre tests, are very good in all conditions.

Irish Temps - Realistically speaking
Regarding Irish temps, I don't believe we get hot enough to push any good All Season tyres beyond their limits, so I do not see why some Summer advocates are against running All Seasons, all year round.

That said, I do believe that we get cold enough to reach and surpass good Summer tyres lower temp limits. I have been monitoring road temps for a few weeks, and we have been dipping below 7 degrees for quite a while. 7 degrees being the often mentioned cutoff temp when Summers begin or have already left their working temp range. It is as low as 2.7 in the south of country.

General Chitter Chatter
Even if I never see snow for the rest of my life, I know my All Seasons will handle the road from October to late next spring better than similarly priced Summers. I checked car in the drive way with Hankook Summers last night. I applied some body weight to 11 o clock on the surface of the tyre and my hand slipped right off, with a noise that you get when you get something squeaky clean.

Then I checked my car with Hankook All Seasons, there was a hell of a lot more resistance and no noise, just a sore hand.

Some things I notice when people defend Summer usage all year round is that they assume that the snow is the only issue and that ice cant be helped and also that a tyre which is designed to work in as many demographics as possible may just be reaching operational limits in some of the countries they are sold in at certain times of the year.

I always go back to the story of when I was using Summers during the big snow of a few years back. I was going to collect my All Seasons and I had the scariest journey of my life. Very low grip, hardly any braking, steering was an issue. Then I got the All Seasons and I couldn't get the ABS to kick in, it stopped that well.

gooner99

bbk wrote: »

Previous Research
I remember when I originally researched this area back in 2008. Apparently, until fairly recently, All Season tyres sold State-side were rubbish. More of a marketing gimmick than anything else. They carried the M&S marking, which didn't mean much. They were also called All Weather, they used to be interchangeable terms. They probably still are, aside from a select few.

When the Snowflake symbol was first introduced, then things changed as the Snowflake test was more strict. This lead to the development of the Hankook H730 and Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons which, according to tyre tests, are very good in all conditions.

Irish Temps - Realistically speaking
Regarding Irish temps, I don't believe we get hot enough to push any good All Season tyres beyond their limits, so I do not see why some Summer advocates are against running All Seasons, all year round.

That said, I do believe that we get cold enough to reach and surpass good Summer tyres lower temp limits. I have been monitoring road temps for a few weeks, and we have been dipping below 7 degrees for quite a while. 7 degrees being the often mentioned cutoff temp when Summers begin or have already left their working temp range. It is as low as 2.7 in the south of country.

General Chitter Chatter
Even if I never see snow for the rest of my life, I know my All Seasons will handle the road from October to late next spring better than similarly priced Summers. I checked car in the drive way with Hankook Summers last night. I applied some body weight to 11 o clock on the surface of the tyre and my hand slipped right off, with a noise that you get when you get something squeaky clean.

Then I checked my car with Hankook All Seasons, there was a hell of a lot more resistance and no noise, just a sore hand.

Some things I notice when people defend Summer usage all year round is that they assume that the snow is the only issue and that ice cant be helped and also that a tyre which is designed to work in as many demographics as possible may just be reaching operational limits in some of the countries they are sold in at certain times of the year.

I always go back to the story of when I was using Summers during the big snow of a few years back. I was going to collect my All Seasons and I had the scariest journey of my life. Very low grip, hardly any braking, steering was an issue. Then I got the All Seasons and I couldn't get the ABS to kick in, it stopped that well.

Good post. What all season have you used and how would you rate each one?

gooner99

Need a couple of tyres soon. I am thinking of all weathers. Any of these to be commended or avoided?

Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons.
Nokian All Weather +
Hankook Optimo 4S
Kleber Quadraxer

Not sure if I'm missing any from my list that I should consider?

CJhaughey

gooner99 wrote: »

Need a couple of tyres soon. I am thinking of all weathers. Any of these to be commended or avoided?

Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons.
Nokian All Weather +
Hankook Optimo 4S
Kleber Quadraxer

Not sure if I'm missing any from my list that I should consider?

I can highly recommend the Nokian All Weather +.
I ran 2 sets of these for the last 3 years on my Avensis, had decent wear and very good wet performance.
Took them down to the South of France this year in 40+ deg and fully loaded and they performed fine at Peáge speeds.
I replaced them this year with Conti Wintercontact TS850's just to see what true winters are like and they are very quiet with outstanding grip on wet and greasy low temp roads.
I'll see what type of wear the winters give and if I get the winter and Summer out of them I'll buy them again.

ardmacha

gooner99 wrote: »

Need a couple of tyres soon. I am thinking of all weathers. Any of these to be commended or avoided?

Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons.
Nokian All Weather +
Hankook Optimo 4S
Kleber Quadraxer

Not sure if I'm missing any from my list that I should consider?

maybe Bridgestone A001?

CJhaughey

ardmacha wrote: »

maybe Bridgestone A001?

Mother had these on her Seat Inca, they wore quite quickly.
Good grip but poor tyre life.

ardmacha

CJhaughey wrote: »

Mother had these on her Seat Inca, they wore quite quickly.
Good grip but poor tyre life.

I've had these for about 20000km, the fronts will do another 10000 and the rear another 20000. Not the longest life, but not ridiculous.

CJhaughey

ardmacha wrote: »

I've had these for about 20000km, the fronts will do another 10000 and the rear another 20000. Not the longest life, but not ridiculous.

Probably the heavy old lump of a diesel didn't help.

Popoutman

shedweller wrote: »

I would like to know what tyres you use.

Goodyear Vector 4Seasons

GTE

I started out on Hankook Optimo 4S (H730) and I found those very good. I never had an issue during the heavy snow and ice of a few years back, and I have had a confident feel to the car on all other conditions, especially cold roads.

I then got two Vredstein Quadrac 3, or whatever they are called. I am sure they are good in the snow and cold, but I felt they floated around in regular warm and cold conditions compared to the Hankook, the latter being a more dry, wet road orientated All Season where the Quadrac is more Winter tyre like. The main reason I hate them is that they are considerably louder in the cabin than the Hankooks, which is a big thing for me.

I have two Falken AS200s ready to go on the front, so I am looking forward to using them, especially as they have got great reviews (newer tyre than the above) and are meant to be very quiet. It will be the first time since 2009 that I wont have the Hankook H730 rubber on the car!

I have been wanting to try the Vector 4 Seasons for years, but they are a bit too expensive and I have noted that they are being referred to as "nearly a Winter tyre" in terms of snow performance, which makes me wonder whether a more "Summer" All Season tyre in terms of tread design suits Ireland better.

GTE

Popoutman wrote: »

Not really. True winter-only tyres (snowflaked) will turn to cheese in the warm weather and will wear very quickly. Great for leaving black lines on roads.

Just posting to clear up any possible misconceptions that a tyre with the Snowflake symbol can only be a true Winter tyre. It is merely a tyre which meets certain standards in Winter conditions. A terrible Snow tyre wouldn't have the Snowflake symbol, but a capable All Season tyre would.

The significance of this is the fact that All Seasons became so good that they were awarded a symbol which only Winter tyres would generally get.

gooner99

bbk wrote: »

I started out on Hankook Optimo 4S (H730) and I found those very good. I never had an issue during the heavy snow and ice of a few years back, and I have had a confident feel to the car on all other conditions, especially cold roads.

I then got two Vredstein Quadrac 3, or whatever they are called. I am sure they are good in the snow and cold, but I felt they floated around in regular warm and cold conditions compared to the Hankook, the latter being a more dry, wet road orientated All Season where the Quadrac is more Winter tyre like. The main reason I hate them is that they are considerably louder in the cabin than the Hankooks, which is a big thing for me.

I have two Falken AS200s ready to go on the front, so I am looking forward to using them, especially as they have got great reviews (newer tyre than the above) and are meant to be very quiet. It will be the first time since 2009 that I wont have the Hankook H730 rubber on the car!

I have been wanting to try the Vector 4 Seasons for years, but they are a bit too expensive and I have noted that they are being referred to as "nearly a Winter tyre" in terms of snow performance, which makes me wonder whether a more "Summer" All Season tyre in terms of tread design suits Ireland better.

Was looking at those Falkens along with the Klebers, both in the same price bracket. What price did you get the Falkens at and I guess you did some research before you decided on the Falkens?