Celtic v Barcelona match thread

Eirebear

eagle eye wrote: »

Lets have a look at recent stats then.

Celtic 2 Barcelona 1, Barcelona 2 Celtic 1. That looks like they are on the same level.

I don't think its fair to call anybody delusional that bases their opinions on the most recent games, do you?

Barcelona - 2002/3 - QF
2003/4 - DNQ
2004/5 - Last 16
2005/6 - Winners
2006/7 - Last 16
2007/8 - Semi
2008/9 - Winners
2009/10- Semi
2010/11- Winners
2011/12 - Semi

Celtic - 2002/3 - DNQ
2003/4 - Group Stage
2004/5 - Group Stage
2005/6 - DNQ
2006/7 - Last 16
2007/8 - Last 16
2008/9 - Group Stage
2009/10 - DNQ
2010/11 - DNQ
2011/12 - DNQ

I don't really get what your point is here Eagle Eye, I can only assume that you are simply trying to keep an argument going with Xavi rather than actually debating any meaningful fall out from this result.

In the last 10 years barcelona have won the damn thing 3 times, appearing in 3 Semi FInals, 1 Quarter Final and a Round of 16.
They have failed to qualify once.

Celtic, on the other hand have qualified 5 out of 10 times, and reached the last 16 twice.

During this decade of results they have played eachother in the CL 6 times.
Barca have won 4 to Celtic's 1 with one draw.

Hell, even adding Celtic's 2002/3 UEFA Cup Final, and their victory over Barca in the same tournament a couple of years later, it is pretty obvious that the comparison between the two is rather one sided, don't you think?

Now, i entirely understand that the Celtic fans on this forum might want to get a wee dig back at Xavi given his dismissal of them a couple of weeks ago, and his description of them as "poor" - their result last night was phenomenal, and they have every right to do so.

But let's face it, you're argument above makes you look a bit silly in all honesty.

Carlos_Ray

Fair play to Celtic for a great result. I'm not a Celtic fan but they provided me with great entertainment in the Champions League this year and I was rooting for them last night.

Celtic are a fantastic historic club and in the age of cheats, billionaire sugar daddy's, and glory hunting fans, its great to see them, and clubs like Ajax, putting in such spirited performances in front of passionate fans.

Jelle1880

keith16 wrote: »

United fan here...would hate to get Celtic in the next round.

Make no mistake, Celtic are there on merit. But because the SPL isn't called the "best league in the wolrd" every 5 mins, people are quick to label them shíte etc.

I would say Celtic are well able to compete in the champs league with the likes of Barca, Chelsea, United, Citeh, Arsenal

I think that's several steps too far.

Sure, they totally deserved that on basis of those two games, but what happens when they come up against teams that know how to change their style when it suits them ?

Barcelona had 1 gameplan all night long, and Celtic dealt with it perfectly.

However, that definitely doesn't mean they would get the same results against those other teams you mentioned.

SomethingElse

Eirebear wrote: »

Barcelona - 2002/3 - QF
2003/4 - DNQ
2004/5 - Last 16
2005/6 - Winners
2006/7 - Last 16
2007/8 - Semi
2008/9 - Winners
2009/10- Semi
2010/11- Winners
2011/12 - Semi

Celtic - 2002/3 - DNQ
2003/4 - Group Stage
2004/5 - Group Stage
2005/6 - DNQ
2006/7 - Last 16
2007/8 - Last 16
2008/9 - Group Stage
2009/10 - DNQ
2010/11 - DNQ
2011/12 - DNQ

I don't really get what your point is here Eagle Eye, I can only assume that you are simply trying to keep an argument going with Xavi rather than actually debating any meaningful fall out from this result.

In the last 10 years barcelona have won the damn thing 3 times, appearing in 3 Semi FInals, 1 Quarter Final and a Round of 16.
They have failed to qualify once.

Celtic, on the other hand have qualified 5 out of 10 times, and reached the last 16 twice.

During this decade of results they have played eachother in the CL 6 times.
Barca have won 4 to Celtic's 1 with one draw.

Hell, even adding Celtic's 2002/3 UEFA Cup Final, and their victory over Barca in the same tournament a couple of years later, it is pretty obvious that the comparison between the two is rather one sided, don't you think?

Now, i entirely understand that the Celtic fans on this forum might want to get a wee dig back at Xavi given his dismissal of them a couple of weeks ago, and his description of them as "poor" - their result last night was phenomenal, and they have every right to do so.

But let's face it, you're argument above makes you look a bit silly in all honesty.

How many of last night's Celtic squad have played in the various Champions League campaigns you've quoted there?

SomethingElse

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I think that's several steps too far.

Sure, they totally deserved that on basis of those two games, but what happens when they come up against teams that know how to change their style when it suits them ?

Barcelona had 1 gameplan all night long, and Celtic dealt with it perfectly.

However, that definitely doesn't mean they would get the same results against those other teams you mentioned.

It doesn't mean they wouldn't either. There's no way of knowing how they would match up until the teams in question actually play each other.

What was their gameplan out of interest?

eagle eye

Eirebear wrote: »

Barcelona - 2002/3 - QF


I don't really get what your point is here Eagle Eye, I can only assume that you are simply trying to keep an argument going with Xavi rather than actually debating any meaningful fall out from this result.

In the last 10 years barcelona have won the damn thing 3 times, appearing in 3 Semi FInals, 1 Quarter Final and a Round of 16.
They have failed to qualify once.

Celtic, on the other hand have qualified 5 out of 10 times, and reached the last 16 twice.

During this decade of results they have played eachother in the CL 6 times.
Barca have won 4 to Celtic's 1 with one draw.

Hell, even adding Celtic's 2002/3 UEFA Cup Final, and their victory over Barca in the same tournament a couple of years later, it is pretty obvious that the comparison between the two is rather one sided, don't you think?

Now, i entirely understand that the Celtic fans on this forum might want to get a wee dig back at Xavi given his dismissal of them a couple of weeks ago, and his description of them as "poor" - their result last night was phenomenal, and they have every right to do so.

But let's face it, you're argument above makes you look a bit silly in all honesty.

I haven't quoted or responded to Xavi in this thread. Its Mellion who I responded to.

You put up history there. I am not talking about history at all, just the present Celtic squad. Going by their performances in this years Champion's league they look really good.

As I said I'm not putting them in the same class as these teams just yet but if they keep performing to that level throughout this campaign then they are in that class.

SomethingElse

eagle eye wrote: »

I haven't quoted or responded to Xavi in this thread. Its Mellion who I responded to.

You put up history there. I am not talking about history at all, just the present Celtic squad. Going by their performances in this years Champion's league they look really good.

As I said I'm not putting them in the same class as these teams just yet but if they keep performing to that level throughout this campaign then they are in that class.

Exactly. Nobody's saying Celtic are the best team in Europe. But they are excelling in the competition that will ultimately decide who the best team in Europe is.

Jelle1880

SomethingElse wrote: »

What was their gameplan out of interest?

Pass Celtic to death.

Every single time they got the ball at the Celtic box it was the same crap.

Pass it to the left, look for a gap, not working, pass back to the middle, pass it to the right, look for a gap, can't find one.

Pass it back to the middle, back to the left, look for an opening in the defence, nothing to be found,...

And not just yesterday, but in the vast majority of their games.

I long for the day that Barcelona get 1 or more players who aren't afraid to have a go from long range, like when they had Ronaldinho.

SomethingElse

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Pass Celtic to death.

Every single time they got the ball at the Celtic box it was the same crap.

Pass it to the left, look for a gap, not working, pass back to the middle, pass it to the right, look for a gap, can't find one.

Pass it back to the middle, back to the left, look for an opening in the defence, nothing to be found,...

And not just yesterday, but in the vast majority of their games.

I long for the day that Barcelona get 1 or more players who aren't afraid to have a go from long range, like when they had Ronaldinho.

For me I saw a more varied approach than usual from Barcelona. They probably struck more shots from outside the box and crossed it more often than I would have expected. They had no success with it though, with the exception of Alexis Sanchez hitting the post. Some of their long range shots were terrible.

donfers

begrudgers like xavi and melion will always have a pop, the sky generation casual fans who just slag everything off unless it cost 50 million or won fifa player of the year are a bit of a blight on the game unfortunately

that result last night was just incredible, it should inspire every team out there including Ireland that there should be no limit to your ambitions

of course we also have Irish fans who say any criticism of Trap or the team is not valid because our team is rubbish, this attitude is self-destructive and will lead any team to oblivion

football is simple, it's about stopping the other team scoring and scoring goals yourselves - forget possession stats, attempts on target and hitting woodwork etc., if that stuff counted then Liverpool would be the best team in England

it's about scoring and stopping the other team scoring, Celtic provided a masterclass in both last night

xavi and melion can snipe away because they don't know who Efe Amrbose is or where he came from, because Tony Watt never featured on the Champions League Tv show, because Charlie Mulgrew was signed from Aberdeen, because Forster was a reserve at Newcastle, because Celtic don't have a player who some sheikh paid 20 million for etc etc, and for me that kind of sniping is everything that is wrong with the game

returning to the original point, that Celtic result should be an inspiration to every team out there who is outgunned and outmuscled in terms of resources - hard work, team spirit, having an intelligent game plan and players with belief who are dedicated to the cause and have more ability than they are ever given credit for and you can pull off results like this

xavi and melion may scoff at the idea that celtic are in the same elite group as barcelona, real madrid, the ebglish cl clubs etc. and i agree that the spanish and english teams have better individual players but celtic have proved they can compete with these sides and although celtic are not in the elite group of champions league teams, in terms of over achievement they are in a league of their own, i think even the begrudgers would admit that....they are an example to all teams who are under-resourced in terms of cash, the game is increasingly decided by the bank balances of the chairmen of a club, celtic struck a blow against that notion last night by demonstrating work ethic, game intelligence and team spirit that money simply can't buy, proving the odds can still be overcome sometimes and for that we should all be grateful, the likes of man city could learn an awful lot about what took place at celtic park last night,

Dempsey

Eirebear wrote: »

Barcelona - 2002/3 - QF
2003/4 - DNQ
2004/5 - Last 16
2005/6 - Winners
2006/7 - Last 16
2007/8 - Semi
2008/9 - Winners
2009/10- Semi
2010/11- Winners
2011/12 - Semi

Celtic - 2002/3 - DNQ
2003/4 - Group Stage
2004/5 - Group Stage
2005/6 - DNQ
2006/7 - Last 16
2007/8 - Last 16
2008/9 - Group Stage
2009/10 - DNQ
2010/11 - DNQ
2011/12 - DNQ

I don't really get what your point is here Eagle Eye, I can only assume that you are simply trying to keep an argument going with Xavi rather than actually debating any meaningful fall out from this result.

In the last 10 years barcelona have won the damn thing 3 times, appearing in 3 Semi FInals, 1 Quarter Final and a Round of 16.
They have failed to qualify once.

Celtic, on the other hand have qualified 5 out of 10 times, and reached the last 16 twice.

During this decade of results they have played eachother in the CL 6 times.
Barca have won 4 to Celtic's 1 with one draw.

Hell, even adding Celtic's 2002/3 UEFA Cup Final, and their victory over Barca in the same tournament a couple of years later, it is pretty obvious that the comparison between the two is rather one sided, don't you think?

Now, i entirely understand that the Celtic fans on this forum might want to get a wee dig back at Xavi given his dismissal of them a couple of weeks ago, and his description of them as "poor" - their result last night was phenomenal, and they have every right to do so.

But let's face it, you're argument above makes you look a bit silly in all honesty.

what does all that have to do with the match last night? not a lot really

keith16

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I think that's several steps too far.

Sure, they totally deserved that on basis of those two games, but what happens when they come up against teams that know how to change their style when it suits them ?

Barcelona had 1 gameplan all night long, and Celtic dealt with it perfectly.

However, that definitely doesn't mean they would get the same results against those other teams you mentioned.

Yeah, I never said that Celtic would beat all of those teams. But as a Manchester United fan, I certainly wouldn't fancy them.

And I should hardly think the likes of City, Chelsea or Arsenal would be happy to take them on either. But that's a moot point since most of those clubs will likely finish second anyway (a miracle required for city) and assuming Celtic will also finished second, will avoid each other in the next round.

So based on that observation alone, I would say Celtic very much belong in that bracket, even with United who made hard work to top a poor group.

Looking at the likely group winners I would say Celtic could also make hard work for the likes of Porto, Malaga and United.

The_Kew_Tour

Barca proved last night that they sure as hell dont have a plan B.

If teams did as well in preparation and organisation as Celtic did last night Barca would struggle to win anything.

The_Kew_Tour

Last night was just as enjoyable as 7-5 Reading/Arsenal game.

The tactics and preparation done by Lennon on that side was terrific.

Zonalmarking and tictactic did good reviews on it too.

A Dub in Glasgo

They knew Watt will make a difference

FatherTed

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Barca proved last night that they sure as hell dont have a plan B.

If teams did as well in preparation and organisation as Celtic did last night Barca would struggle to win anything.

Correct, and they didn't have a plan B against Chelsea either last season.

niallo27

FatherTed wrote: »

Correct, and they didn't have a plan B against Chelsea either last season.

Well 99% of the time plan A works so why change it.

PauloMN

This constant comparing of teams is pointless really. We all know that when you get to the CL group stages, most teams will have a better set of players than Celtic in terms of individual skill.

Where Celtic have generally done well is by squeezing the very best out of what they have. Lennon has done brilliantly in this regard, and the current squad are playing very well together, especially in Europe. He and the scouts have been incredibly shrewd in their purchases, looking for young players that show a little something, but who are still young enough to be relatively unknown (and therefore cheap). Players who will appreciate a platform in Britain to get noticed if they do well, and the possibility to play in the CL, in games like last night. He's got the right mix of players from the Celtic youth system (Forrest, McGeouch, George) other young Scottish/British players (Hooper, Watt, Forster etc.) and players and foreign players bought in (Wanyama, Ambrose, Izzy etc.) which seems to be working very well.

As for whether Celtic are a poor European side, well that depends on how you define "poor". Mowbray's Celtic were a poor European side, I don't think any Celtic fan would argue that. Strachan's Celtic qualified out of the groups twice in a row, I'd hardly call that "poor" and it certainly wasn't flukey. He also got the most from a limited set of players, but I think Lennon is a better manager and actually has better players now at his disposal. We will see a lot from this manager and squad, hopefully qualifying this season into the CL knockout stages (which I don't think anyone would have expected at all at the start of the season).

If you consider that to be "poor", well there's nothing else I can say really (other than I'd prefer to be a "poor" side on 7 points than a "good" side on 2 points.)

Eirebear

Dempsey wrote: »

what does all that have to do with the match last night? not a lot really

Read the conversation and you might figure out where i'm coming from.
I won't hold my breath though.

bobbysands81

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I think that's several steps too far.

Sure, they totally deserved that on basis of those two games, but what happens when they come up against teams that know how to change their style when it suits them ?

Barcelona had 1 gameplan all night long, and Celtic dealt with it perfectly.

However, that definitely doesn't mean they would get the same results against those other teams you mentioned.

I'm not for a second trying to say that we're at the very top level when it comes to European football but the list of teams that have come to Celtic Park in the last 15 years in the Champions League and who have left after being beaten reads as a 'Who's Who' of European Football.

bobbysands81

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Pass Celtic to death.

Every single time they got the ball at the Celtic box it was the same crap.

Pass it to the left, look for a gap, not working, pass back to the middle, pass it to the right, look for a gap, can't find one.

Pass it back to the middle, back to the left, look for an opening in the defence, nothing to be found,...

And not just yesterday, but in the vast majority of their games.

I long for the day that Barcelona get 1 or more players who aren't afraid to have a go from long range, like when they had Ronaldinho.

You must be hurting!!!

Big game for your mob this weekend eh? Hope it goes well for you against Peterhead.

Richard Hillman

Victims in defeat, victims in victory.

bobbysands81

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Victims in defeat, victims in victory.

Why bother with ****e like that? Seriously?

Dempsey

Eirebear wrote: »

Read the conversation and you might figure out where i'm coming from.
I won't hold my breath though.

i read the conversation, its pointless to bring up past seasons given the context of the argument got yourself involved in.

SEPT 23 1989

donfers wrote: »

begrudgers like xavi and melion will always have a pop, the sky generation casual fans who just slag everything off unless it cost 50 million or won fifa player of the year are a bit of a blight on the game unfortunately

Is xavi not a man city supporter who would have followed his team when they were in the old division 3 ?

sky generation???

A Dub in Glasgo

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Victims in defeat, victims in victory.

I actually pity you, your first love must have shagged your sister, he most definitely was a Celtic fan so you now hate Celtic... you would be better getting over him

Eirebear

Dempsey wrote: »

i read the conversation, its pointless to bring up past seasons given the context of the argument got yourself involved in.

Really?
"Celtic are a poor European side" seemed to be the contentious quote, of course - past seasons have nothing to do with that! :rolleyes:

I love the fact you jump into an argument to have a go at me for "getting myself involved" though.
That takes a special kind of twisted.

blahfckingblah

fair play too the little catalan club for coming over and giving it their all..

bobbysands81

blahfckingblah wrote: »

fair play too the little catalan club for coming over and giving it their all..

Celtic flew the Catalan flag from the top of the stadium for Barca and not the Spanish one. A nice touch from the club.

Dempsey

Eirebear wrote: »

Really?
"Celtic are a poor European side" seemed to be the contentious quote, of course - past seasons have nothing to do with that! :rolleyes:

I love the fact you jump into an argument to have a go at me for "getting myself involved" though.
That takes a special kind of twisted.

i must have missed where those that were calling celtic a poor side changed to calling them a poor european side. thats a sure sign that someone is trying to squirm away from the tripe theyve posted already.

still, our record over the last 10 years etc is irrelevant to what ive read in the celtic barca match threads over the past 2 weeks. people have embarrassed themselves are now trying to tweak their argument to save face.

you seem to be taking exception to me saying what several others have said in relation to that post. makes me laugh to think that you've taken my post personally. go away and lie down for yourself!

Jelle1880

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You must be hurting!!!

Big game for your mob this weekend eh? Hope it goes well for you against Peterhead.

Hahahahaha, so predictable.

Bitter is too nice for the likes of you.

I said that Celtic understood Barcelona's gameplan, which was very simplistic and one-side and somehow you take this as me hurting ?
Oh no, wait, it must have been me wishing Barcelona had a guy that would take a shot now and again, right ?

Sad, little man you are.

bobbysands81

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Hahahahaha, so predictable.

Bitter is too nice for the likes of you.

I said that Celtic understood Barcelona's gameplan, which was very simplistic and one-side and somehow you take this as me hurting ?
Oh no, wait, it must have been me wishing Barcelona had a guy that would take a shot now and again, right ?

Sad, little man you are.

Seems like I hit a nerve!!!

Jelle1880

Don't flatter yourself

blahfckingblah

glad to see the zombies proud of their countrymen.. 125 proud years

Eirebear

Dempsey wrote: »

i must have missed where those that were calling celtic a poor side changed to calling them a poor european side. thats a sure sign that someone is trying to squirm away from the tripe theyve posted already.

still, our record over the last 10 years etc is irrelevant to what ive read in the celtic barca match threads over the past 2 weeks. people have embarrassed themselves are now trying to tweak their argument to save face.

you seem to be taking exception to me saying what several others have said in relation to that post. makes me laugh to think that you've taken my post personally. go away and lie down for yourself!

Sorry Dempsey, now i see the error of my ways - I mean, these quotes from Melion quite clearly state that Celtic are poor in a domestic context. Not a European one. How silly of me!

Melion wrote: »

I threw my toys out of the pram? How exactly? By saying that Celtic are nowhere close to the level of the elite clubs in Europe which includes Barcelona.

Melion wrote: »

Not at all, Celtic are not even close to Barca, Real, United, Bayern etc. Anyone who thinks they are is deluded.

Oh...wait....

Now what were you saying about "Tweaking arguments"?

Jelle1880

Another bitter one it seems.

Let's get this straight, because some of you seem too thick to understand this:

I praised Celtic for what they did yesterday, they had Barca right where they wanted them and got a brilliant result.

After that I said that Barca were very predictable (and not just yesterday, a lot of people would agree that they don't have a back up plan when things aren't going well) but somehow that's taken as a jab at Celtic ?

There's no pleasing some of you, seems like you want to be offended.

blahfckingblah

I for one am not offended.. just merely think that a lot of people on here see red when Celtic achieve something of merit

Bowlardo

Lads those anyone know the song the celtic fans were singing. It was a a rod stewart song but with celtic lyrics. i can't think of the song it was...

I think they were singing "i don't wanna talk about it!" but i could not make it put what they were singing

bobbysands81

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Another bitter one it seems.

Let's get this straight, because some of you seem too thick to understand this:

I praised Celtic for what they did yesterday, they had Barca right where they wanted them and got a brilliant result.

After that I said that Barca were very predictable (and not just yesterday, a lot of people would agree that they don't have a back up plan when things aren't going well) but somehow that's taken as a jab at Celtic ?

There's no pleasing some of you, seems like you want to be offended.

You're the offended one pal, look at your last response to me where you can me a sad little man and tell me I'm bitter.

Not sure how I could be deemed 'bitter' seeing as I'm celebrating a great Celtic win!

bobbysands81

Bowlardo wrote: »

Lads those anyone know the song the celtic fans were singing. It was a a rod stewart song but with celtic lyrics. i can't think of the song it was...

I think they were singing "i don't wanna talk about it!" but i could not make it put what they were singing

You sure it wasn't 'just can't get enough?'

Eirebear

blahfckingblah wrote: »

I for one am not offended.. just merely think that a lot of people on here see red when Celtic achieve something of merit

Then what's with the Zombie dig?
Any Rangers supporter i've seen post on either of the two threads has applauded Celtic for their performance last night.

Certain people seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulder however, and "Zombie" references simply prove that, especially given that the majority of those who slagged Celtic off are certainly no rangers fans.

Dempsey

Eirebear wrote: »

Sorry Dempsey, now i see the error of my ways - I mean, these quotes from Melion quite clearly state that Celtic are poor in a domestic context. Not a European one. How silly of me!




Oh...wait....

Now what were you saying about m"Tweaking arguments"?

yea, that hes been saying all along! well done!

Eirebear

Dempsey wrote: »

yea, that hes been saying all along! well done!

Broxi_Bear_Eire

blahfckingblah wrote: »

glad to see the zombies proud of their countrymen.. 125 proud years

See that is the sort of comment that makes me despise everything about your club I only made one post about the game and that was in the Tic thread crongratulatin Celtic on there victory and saying how well deserved it was. But people like you are so obsessed with us you still have to have your wee digs truly pathetic

bobbysands81

Eirebear wrote: »

Then what's with the Zombie dig?
Any Rangers supporter i've seen post on either of the two threads has applauded Celtic for their performance last night.

Certain people seem to have a bit of a chip on their shoulder however, and "Zombie" references simply prove that, especially given that the majority of those who slagged Celtic off are certainly no rangers fans.

A very fair point.

Bowlardo

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You sure it wasn't 'just can't get enough?'

That's depeche mode. I know that one.
I think it was in the second half....between the 50-70 minutes. could have been the barca fans singing something...

Jelle1880

Bowlardo wrote: »

That's depeche mode. I know that one.
I think it was in the second half....between the 50-70 minutes. could have been the barca fans singing something...

That'll be the day :pac:

General Relativity

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

See that is the sort of comment that makes me despise everything about your club I only made one post about the game and that was in the Tic thread crongratulatin Celtic on there victory and saying how well deserved it was. But people like you are so obsessed with us you still have to have your wee digs truly pathetic

You hate the entire club because of some fans, that's cool.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

General Relativity wrote: »

You hate the entire club because of some fans, that's cool.

Yup because this garbage is spouted by every tic fan I know and I include very close friends snd family in that. Tell you what it matters not z jot what you think of me this is the Internet not a pub so it's doubful we will ever have the pleasure of meeting

Xavi6

donfers wrote: »

begrudgers like xavi and melion will always have a pop, the sky generation casual fans who just slag everything off unless it cost 50 million or won fifa player of the year are a bit of a blight on the game unfortunately

Sky generation casual? Bahahaha, forgive me if I laugh uncontrollably.

Slagging off everything would mean I wasn't a League of Ireland regular for ten years and now a domestic football regular in Australia right? Cause those lads were all free transfers and us Sky generationers couldn't be seen in such an environment.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Is xavi not a man city supporter who would have followed his team when they were in the old division 3 ?

sky generation???

True story, but can't let that get in the way of a good rant.