Advice needed on Cocker Spaniel Breeders/introducing 2nd dog

brandy555

Hi all, first time poster long time lurker here!!

I am getting a second cocker spaniel early next year (have a 5yr old female) & have been researching breeders etc for the past few months. I have been in touch with two breeders which will have litters ready in January (not the best time I know but I have a few weeks off work), one who seems lovely & is so far making all the right moves - keeping me updated on the litter, sending pics/suggesting I come up for a visit when pup is a few weeks old etc but I think she is a back yard breeder.
The 2nd is Bill McEntee Baysway Kennels who may have exactly what I'm looking for - his dogs are gorgeous! He seems like a lovely man too & knows what he is talking about but I've seen some conflicting opinions on here about him, anyone have first hand experience? Also any tips on what to look out for (I will be visiting both)?

Also any hints/tips on how best to introduce the puppy to my older girl would be great?! (Apologies for being so long winded! )

andreac

Can i ask where and how you sourced your breeders?

brandy555

Well Bill McEntee I had seen mentioned on here & he is named as the secretary of the cscoi so I contacted him for information. The other one was advertising on the buy and sell (I know never a good start!) but pups look in good condition & I figured it couldn't hurt to check her out

andreac

Thats ok about Bill, but please stay away from the likes of the buy and sell, its even worse than donedeal....

I cant comment on Bill as i dont know him, but if he is secretary of the club then you cant go far wrong there.

brandy555

That's what I had thought regarding Bill until I saw an old post in which the poster claimed they had gotten two very sick pups from him.

Any advice on the introduction process? My own girl is used to having dogs come into her 'territory' and takes no notice so I'm hoping there shouldn't be any problems in this regard. We will be getting another girl though so not sure if this would make any difference on how we should approach it?!

DBB

andreac wrote: »

Thats ok about Bill, but please stay away from the likes of the buy and sell, its even worse than donedeal....

Are you sure this is true about B&S being worse than DD? Unlike DD, the B&S actually go to some lengths to screen their animal advertisers to try to minimise the chances of them being puppy farmers/bybs. According to their editor anyway! I spoke to him last year, at the same time that I was listening to the owner of DD telling us there was nothing he could do to stop dodgy characters adveritising on his site! The B&S man said that they are losing out in a big way to DD because of their stricter criteria, but he said it's a loss they're prepared to take if it means they block the dodgier breeders.

OP, as to where to buy from, there are some super Cocker breeders out there who aren't in the breed society. They have no interest in being in the breed society because they're not breeding show dogs, they're breeding working dogs. Personally, were it me, I'd opt for a working strain Cocker over a show strain Cocker any day of the week, they're healthier and don't tend to have the same behavioural issues I'm seeing in more and more show/pet Cockers these days.
Indeed, those who are breeding nice working strain Cockers and gundog breeds frequently advertise in the B&S, because that's the traditional advertising medium for people who aren't interested in breeding for showing.
It's really a case of approach with caution, but I would do that no matter who I was buying a pup from.. I wouldn't care if they were the breed club secretary! Frankly, just because a breeder produces pups of top show lineage, doesn't necessarily mean they've got the knowledge to socialise a pup as they should be socialised from Day 1... that's no good to me, or any pet owner, no matter how blue-blooded the dog is.
I know a number of top-class working Springer breeders locally here: they are not with the breed sociaety, because theirs are working field-trial dogs. One breeder in particular brings all of the pups into the house for hours every day, getting his kids to play with them, he brings them for spins in the car, all sorts of things, so that if they don't make the grade as working dogs, they will make top-class pets... and they do. This is the sort of breeder I'd be looking for if I was looking for one of the gundog breeds.

So, in this particular case, as long as you are sure, having inspected the premises, that the breeder has a nice set-up, then go for it.

The first thing I'd want to see for myself is that the pups have been reared inside the home, or at least have spent large chunks of time in the breeder's home, getting used to life in a domestic environment and all that goes with it from a very early stage. Don't ask the breeder before you get there where they're rearing their pups: see what their set-up is when you get there. If the pups are in a shed, ask to see them in the house. The breeder's reaction to this may be interesting, and the pup's reaction to being brought inside should be carefully monitored: does he look comfortable there, or does he look like a rabbit in the headlights?

The second thing I'd want to know is, and I would check this for myself, what are the parent dogs like when you try to take something off them? How do they react to you approaching their food bowl, while they are eating? Resource guarding has become a HUGE problem in this breed... I'd want to be very happy that the parents show no sign of this.
Similarly, pups should not be in the slightest bit aggressive if you try to take a toy from them. Playful is fine, but if they stand over the toy, or freeze, or show you the whites of their eye as you try to take the toy, think very carefully about what these behaviours could turn into in the adult dog.

Similarly, is the breeder feeding all of the pups from one bowl, or do they all get their own bowl? Feeding a little from one bowl sets them up to be resource guarders, and I would not take a pup who'd been fed this way, especially if from a breed that is associated with this behavioural issue.

I'd want to know how many children the pup has met before your visit. Also, how many men, how many women. A good breeder will try to get visitors in from the time pups are 3-4 weeks old, so that the pups are well used to lots of different shapes and sizes of people before you bring pup home.

I'd want to see that the breeder is housetraining the pups, giving them an area to toilet in, and encouraging them to use it as much as possible. It is possible for the house training process to be almost finished by the time you bring pup home, if the breeder really tries hard. But this isn't compulsory, as long as some effort is being made to start off the process before you get the pup.

Hope this is of some help, I may think of more stuff later!

Edited to add: I've just noticed you're thinking of getting another female. Think long, very long, and hard about this. All will be fine, most likely, in the first couple of months, but it;s when the secoind female becomes sexually mature that trouble starts: early spaying makes little difference to this, but the point is that the new dog is well settled into the home before the trouble starts. The chances of trouble between two females is much higher than it is between one male and one female. Note, I am talking about a two-dog household here. Indeed, the chances of trouble between one male and one female is very low. So, I would generally advise against putting a female with a female, statistically it is a significantly greater risk, which could be practically eliminated if you get a male pup.

paultf

brandy555 wrote: »

I am getting a second cocker spaniel early next year (have a 5yr old female) & have been researching breeders etc for the past few months.

Cockers are lovely dogs. If you are buying one, you best bet is to get one from a IKC registered breeder.

In saying that though you still need to know what to look for and to make sure you are getting a good example of the breed.

BTW, just because the breeder is IKC doesn't necessarily mean they will look out for your interests. You have to do that - I am saying this cause I got caught out by a well knowned IKC breeder before.

I'll send you a PM will a list of some breeders.

Good luck - hope it works out for you. Oh, I'd love to be getting another cocker!

brandy555

DBB wrote: »

Personally, were it me, I'd opt for a working strain Cocker over a show strain Cocker any day of the week, they're healthier and don't tend to have the same behavioural issues I'm seeing in more and more show/pet Cockers these days.
Indeed, those who are breeding nice working strain Cockers and gundog breeds frequently advertise in the B&S, because that's the traditional advertising medium for people who aren't interested in breeding for showing.

I was hoping to find a working strain cocker as Brandy my 5year old is part working strain (I think!) & before her I always had working strain springers & never a health problem with any of them (although brandy has mild epilepsy) All my springers were got off buy and sell, thats just how it was done, Brandy I rehomed when she was 6 months old. There is so much bad press about these advertisers nowadays, its impossible to know where to look!!

DBB wrote: »

Edit to add: I've just noticed you're thinking of getting another female. Think long, very long, and hard about this. All will be fine, most likely, in the first couple of months, but it;s when the secoind female becomes sexually mature that trouble starts: early spaying makes little difference to this, but the point is that the new dog is well settled into the home before the trouble starts. The chances of trouble between two females is much higher than it is between one male and one female. Note, I am talking about a two-dog household here. Indeed, the chances of trouble between one male and one female is very low. So, I would generally advise against putting a female with a female, statistically it is a significantly greater risk, which could be practically eliminated if you get a male pup.

I was hoping you wouldn't say this!! I have always had females, never owned a male - not that I have anything against males it just happened that way! There is other people in the household that are totally against a male for whatever reason :rolleyes: so a female it will have to be. I have heard that if the ages are far enough apart & the older girl is the obvious alpha then the risks of problems are reduced?!

DBB

brandy555 wrote: »

I was hoping you wouldn't say this!! I have always had females, never owned a male - not that I have anything against males it just happened that way! There is other people in the household that are totally against a male for whatever reason :rolleyes: so a female it will have to be. I have heard that if the ages are far enough apart & the older girl is the obvious alpha then the risks of problems are reduced?!

It might work out, it might not... that's the best guarantee anyone can give you when rehoming two females together. I'm not aware of any substance at all to an age gap between two females making any difference, to be honest, and indeed I can think of many instances where there were problems despite an age gap.
The problem here is that when two females decide to fight, it can be very, very nasty. There are Rules of Engagement between two males, there aren't between females, and this is why inter-female fights can result in severe injury.
There probably isn't an "alpha" role assumed by one dog in a household, although it can appear that way. It's more accurate to say that one dog tends to be more insistent on acquiring and protecting certain resources, whilst the other is more insistent on getting and protecting others. As long as there is no crossover of these resources, peace will reign, although this is unusual, because there's nearly always some crossover. The problem is, you'll have no idea that this sort of crossover is going to cause a problem until Female #2 is adult.
Then there is the other situation where one dog is just a pushy dog, and is insistent on getting pretty much all resources, whilst the other just happens to not really care, they're just not wired that way.
But this is not the same thing as being Alpha: with dogs, it's all about resources, as opposed to it being a preconceived setting out for world domination. Resources can be a whole lot of different things: food, toys, bones, owner, bed, space, peace and quiet.

LisaO

brandy555 wrote: »

I was hoping to find a working strain cocker as Brandy my 5year old is part working strain (I think!) & before her I always had working strain springers & never a health problem with any of them (although brandy has mild epilepsy) All my springers were got off buy and sell, thats just how it was done, Brandy I rehomed when she was 6 months old. There is so much bad press about these advertisers nowadays, its impossible to know where to look!!

If you are looking for a working strain there is a magazine for working dogs that might be of use to you - can't remember the name of it but have seen it on the newsagents shelf. Or even have a look on the Hunting/Shooting forums here on boards?

brandy555

DBB wrote: »

Then there is the other situation where one dog is just a pushy dog, and is insistent on getting pretty much all resources, whilst the other just happens to not really care, they're just not wired that way.But this is not the same thing as being Alpha: with dogs, it's all about resources, as opposed to it being a preconceived setting out for world domination. Resources can be a whole lot of different things: food, toys, bones, owner, bed, space, peace and quiet.

Thanks DBB - your advice & knowledge is great!! With regard to Brandy she is ball obsessive - or anything she can find for you to throw - but dogs she has never met have come into her space & gone straight for her ball, she just sits back & waits for them to drop it (or maybe she's hoping they'll throw it for her ) She's in no way food driven, I have on occasion had to stand over her to make sure she eats!! As you said it depends on the personality on the new pup when she gets older on how they will interact. Cripes I may have to seriously re-think all this!! :eek:

brandy555

LisaO wrote: »

If you are looking for a working strain there is a magazine for working dogs that might be of use to you - can't remember the name of it but have seen it on the newsagents shelf. Or even have a look on the Hunting/Shooting forums here on boards?

I'll have a look see if I can find this magazine next time I'm in the shop, thanks LisaO would never have thought of this!

Rhona297

Hi DBB,

Your advice and knowledge is excellent and I'm hoping you might be able to give me the details of done of the working strain cocker breeders you mentioned. In looking for a pup in Feb/March time for a pet but also to work a bit. I'd like one from a proper working background, not a showing one.

Thanks very much in advance!

DBB wrote: »

Are you sure this is true about B&S being worse than DD? Unlike DD, the B&S actually go to some lengths to screen their animal advertisers to try to minimise the chances of them being puppy farmers/bybs. According to their editor anyway! I spoke to him last year, at the same time that I was listening to the owner of DD telling us there was nothing he could do to stop dodgy characters adveritising on his site! The B&S man said that they are losing out in a big way to DD because of their stricter criteria, but he said it's a loss they're prepared to take if it means they block the dodgier breeders.

OP, as to where to buy from, there are some super Cocker breeders out there who aren't in the breed society. They have no interest in being in the breed society because they're not breeding show dogs, they're breeding working dogs. Personally, were it me, I'd opt for a working strain Cocker over a show strain Cocker any day of the week, they're healthier and don't tend to have the same behavioural issues I'm seeing in more and more show/pet Cockers these days.
Indeed, those who are breeding nice working strain Cockers and gundog breeds frequently advertise in the B&S, because that's the traditional advertising medium for people who aren't interested in breeding for showing.
It's really a case of approach with caution, but I would do that no matter who I was buying a pup from.. I wouldn't care if they were the breed club secretary! Frankly, just because a breeder produces pups of top show lineage, doesn't necessarily mean they've got the knowledge to socialise a pup as they should be socialised from Day 1... that's no good to me, or any pet owner, no matter how blue-blooded the dog is.
I know a number of top-class working Springer breeders locally here: they are not with the breed sociaety, because theirs are working field-trial dogs. One breeder in particular brings all of the pups into the house for hours every day, getting his kids to play with them, he brings them for spins in the car, all sorts of things, so that if they don't make the grade as working dogs, they will make top-class pets... and they do. This is the sort of breeder I'd be looking for if I was looking for one of the gundog breeds.

So, in this particular case, as long as you are sure, having inspected the premises, that the breeder has a nice set-up, then go for it.

The first thing I'd want to see for myself is that the pups have been reared inside the home, or at least have spent large chunks of time in the breeder's home, getting used to life in a domestic environment and all that goes with it from a very early stage. Don't ask the breeder before you get there where they're rearing their pups: see what their set-up is when you get there. If the pups are in a shed, ask to see them in the house. The breeder's reaction to this may be interesting, and the pup's reaction to being brought inside should be carefully monitored: does he look comfortable there, or does he look like a rabbit in the headlights?

The second thing I'd want to know is, and I would check this for myself, what are the parent dogs like when you try to take something off them? How do they react to you approaching their food bowl, while they are eating? Resource guarding has become a HUGE problem in this breed... I'd want to be very happy that the parents show no sign of this.
Similarly, pups should not be in the slightest bit aggressive if you try to take a toy from them. Playful is fine, but if they stand over the toy, or freeze, or show you the whites of their eye as you try to take the toy, think very carefully about what these behaviours could turn into in the adult dog.

Similarly, is the breeder feeding all of the pups from one bowl, or do they all get their own bowl? Feeding a little from one bowl sets them up to be resource guarders, and I would not take a pup who'd been fed this way, especially if from a breed that is associated with this behavioural issue.

I'd want to know how many children the pup has met before your visit. Also, how many men, how many women. A good breeder will try to get visitors in from the time pups are 3-4 weeks old, so that the pups are well used to lots of different shapes and sizes of people before you bring pup home.

I'd want to see that the breeder is housetraining the pups, giving them an area to toilet in, and encouraging them to use it as much as possible. It is possible for the house training process to be almost finished by the time you bring pup home, if the breeder really tries hard. But this isn't compulsory, as long as some effort is being made to start off the process before you get the pup.

Hope this is of some help, I may think of more stuff later!

Edited to add: I've just noticed you're thinking of getting another female. Think long, very long, and hard about this. All will be fine, most likely, in the first couple of months, but it;s when the secoind female becomes sexually mature that trouble starts: early spaying makes little difference to this, but the point is that the new dog is well settled into the home before the trouble starts. The chances of trouble between two females is much higher than it is between one male and one female. Note, I am talking about a two-dog household here. Indeed, the chances of trouble between one male and one female is very low. So, I would generally advise against putting a female with a female, statistically it is a significantly greater risk, which could be practically eliminated if you get a male pup.

Rhona297

Please could you also PM me the breeders details? Thanks very much

paultf wrote: »

Cockers are lovely dogs. If you are buying one, you best bet is to get one from a IKC registered breeder.

In saying that though you still need to know what to look for and to make sure you are getting a good example of the breed.

BTW, just because the breeder is IKC doesn't necessarily mean they will look out for your interests. You have to do that - I am saying this cause I got caught out by a well knowned IKC breeder before.

I'll send you a PM will a list of some breeders.

Good luck - hope it works out for you. Oh, I'd love to be getting another cocker!

DBB

Rhona297 wrote: »

In looking for a pup in Feb/March time for a pet but also to work a bit. I'd like one from a proper working background, not a showing one.

Thanks very much in advance!

I don't know any Cocker breeders personally Rhona (they're all Springer people around here!), but have met quite a few of the offspring the Cocker breeders have produced: your best bet is to make contact with some field trials or rough-shooting folk, as Cockers are re-appearing more and more these days as working dogs. Any of the pet dogs I've met from working lines have been far superior, temperamentally, to the show/pet lines (though I don't want to tar all pet Cocker breeders with the one brush, I'm sure there are some great ones out there!)
If you're planning to shoot over your new one, does this mean you may already know some shooting folk who might be able to help?

Rhona297

Thanks very much for the advice. I agree, from what I have read, the working strain seems less problematic, but for me they are much more handsome! I haven't really got into the shooting yet but I will try and seek out some people to ask. I have also discovered www.champdogs.co.uk which has lots of working cocker pups for sale.

Thanks again!

tk123

http://www.pedigreedogs.ie/ads/cocker-spaniel-for-sale/

Rhona297

Hahaha!! Very good!

tk123 wrote: »

http://www.pedigreedogs.ie/ads/cocker-spaniel-for-sale/

brandy555

Haha that's brilliant!!!!

Rhona297 - from all the research I have been doing the past few months most hunting strain pups seem to be advertised on the likes of buyandsell, donedeal, the magazine which was mentioned earlier in the post, I know most people would tell you to steer clear but if you know what you to look for & take the appropriate steps to avoid back yard breeders/ puppy farms you should be fine.
I got my last working springer from an ad on the buyandsell & you couldn't ask for a better dog!!

DBB

It occurred to me last night that there's a resource right here on boards: the Shooting/Hunting forum! D'uh! There's plenty of breeder/dog discussion over there, and I'll bet you'll find someone who can recommend breeders to you: IMO all working strain breeders should have half an eye on the pet dog market, not only breeding carefully from good working lines, but taking the time and effort to socialise their pups in a home environment, so that pups that end up not working, for whatever reason, have the option of being homed as a nicely-prepared pet. This early work also steadies dogs that end up working, and really cements the working bond between dog and owner.