AI: Ireland v South Africa; Aviva Stadium, Sat 10 Nov [MOD WARNING POST #1160]

Tigerandahalf

Who is coaching the backs now? Kiss?
Backline is a shambles but not sure if we have the players in the centre. People are talking about Marshall but he still isnt getting ahead of Paddy Wallace for Ulster.
We were lucky enough tonight that we got a few handy early penalties and Sexton nailed them to be fair.
But we are creating nothing and dont even look like it. Cant put a team through more than 3 phases and then lose our way. Some of the players are also carrying the ball too high into contact. Mike Ross has got turned over before.
Id be keeping McCarthy and Ryan in the team. McCarthy looks a great leader too. Let POC earn his way back into the team. Other than the lineout does he offer anything extra anymore? Definitely doesnt hit as many rucks as the other two.

freyners

.ak wrote: »

You're right here... but I'd have McCarthy above POC on today's standing. Atleast he suits the Irish mould. POC is wasted in green. Thing is, could McCarthy replicate the kind of performance?

Watching him week in week out i can say Macca can and does replicate that form consistantly (and can play better if he was used to carry ball more)

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yep I agree. POC has to be in the side, but if McCarthy continues like that he has to be as well.

Leinster fans, I implore you. Lets all throw a tenner in (we're all rich mocha drinkers anyway) and put the money towards a contract for McCarthy. He's too good for those dirty westerners.

back off, he ours

Foxtrol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yep I agree. POC has to be in the side, but if McCarthy continues like that he has to be as well.

Leinster fans, I implore you. Lets all throw a tenner in (we're all rich mocha drinkers anyway) and put the money towards a contract for McCarthy. He's too good for those dirty westerners.

Apparently Leinster tried last year but got shot down. If Cullen calls it a day at the end of the season he might be more inclined to move.

Fishooks12

Ok. I think there's a lot more positives than negatives to take out of today.

McCarthy was simply outstanding. And I really questioned his ability to transfer his form to international level. The guy was immense. Best player on the park by a country mile.

Bent, ethical issues aside, looks like a brilliant acquisition. Should have been on a bit earlier too.

POM had a very good first half but faded in the second, gave away two very marginal penalties

Healy was brilliant as usual

Zebo looks like he's going to be some player. Looks dangerous in any situation. One thing I think he'll realise tonight is that some of the wide running lines he takes at club level aren't as easy to work at test rugby. But a very solid game overall.

Sexton was solid enough today and decent in defense considering he was targeted by SA's big runners

D'arcy did his job, some nice carries too

Murray mixed the brilliant with the sloppy. Some great kicks in the first half, a nice break, improved speed and a brilliant try saving tackle. But some of his passing was a tad erratic. Thought Reddan was slightly abject when he came on. Unusual because he's normally very good in green.

Strauss had a solid debut. Stole ball and carried well. Lineout wasn't the best but not sure who was at fault for that

Bowe gave a masterclass in 14 play in the first half. Things didn't go his way in the second.

tbm

We need a dedicated backs coach. That's what told today. Zero imagination against a stout defense.

With the Pumas beating Wales, the game in two weeks is looking like it will be super tight. I'm back to kinda half wanting us to drop outside of the top 8 to force the IRFU to get rid of Deccie. I hate thinking that.

durkadurka

Hagz wrote: »

What's wrong with the mexican wave if I may ask? I often hear commentators tailing ill of it and it seems some people don't like it either. Standing up out of your seat and waving your hands in the air for a couple of seconds can't be that bad can it?

They were doing it during a saffer goal kick. I wasn't impressed

Cpt_Blackbeard

Foxtrol wrote: »

So you'd wrongfully pick McCarthy ahead of Ryan??

Think you've now gotten to the stage when you're searching for a possible slight against a Munster player so you can become outraged.

I've no idea what you're even trying to say tbh. All I said is that its close between McCarthy and Ryan, but McCarthy deserves the jersey. You look to just have gone of on some bizarre tangent.

Scioch

I dont understand all this Zebo love on here. He did ok but he didnt do much of anything ither, he had little work to do at FB, took a few balls forward and didnt pop up too often in defence. He'd have been useful as fresh legs off the bench but as it was he "did a job" at FB. He'd have caused SA problems going forward if he had space. But he hadnt so he didnt.

Trimble was actually busy for the length he was on the pitch yet we have the usual story of "Trimble did do much".

Henry also stood up well considering his inexperience and how physical the game was.

POM showed his "abrasiveness" comes with its ups and down and ultimately doesnt leave the team with a surplus of anything but penalties.

McCarthy was immense in defence and solid going forward. Although I'm not sure about MOTM.

Healy was head and shoulders the best player on that pitch from either side. An absolute beast of a man.

Murray was his usual mixed bag, kicked well but offered little in the way of organisation which in such a physical game with so many turnovers would have been a huge benefit to us. "Did a job" but Reddan showed the gulf between him and Murray when he came on, immediately speeding things up and taking charge. Too bad he had the arse end of the game, tired forwards and Ronan O'Gara to try and fashion something.

Less said about ROG the better. He's a waste of space in that setup at this stage and showed as much tonight.

Strauss was fantastic, with Best back Cronin will be out of luck. Didnt like the way the crowd offered him little when he went off covered in blood and roared with delight when ROG's name was called. Who goes to these games ??

Bent came on and did well, strengthened up the scrum which is what he was there fore and you cant really ask any more of him.

Earls and Darcy were ok, limited opportunities going forward, didnt really create much either but were solid enough over all in defence.

Bowe was good under the high ball, but had little opportunity to go forward, still came out looking great though.

Heaslip did ok, needs to work on his game management as a captain though. Kicking out of range is pointless and he should have known it was a waste. Yellow didnt help the cause either.

Rest did well I think, not sure of McFadden being brought in for Trimble though. He's never shown anything at this level to suggest he should be anything but emergency cover. And the whole Sexton to 12 thing is a joke at this stage. It achieves nothing but limits us when ROG gets control of the ball.

Bottom line is we have little in the way of attack. We never once stretched their defence, never got it to a winger who had space. More often than not they ended up smothered by the time the ball got out onto the wing.

But considering how physical it was and who we were missing I'll take a 4 point loss and some experience for Henry, Zebo, Henderson and bringing Strauss and Bent into the fold. At least it wasnt a total loss.

Blackheath

The centre's are are serious problem, Kidney seems to fancy Marshall as a future 12 but he can't get in the Ulster team ahead of Wallace, I'd like to see McSharry given a shout the next day alongside Earls, he needs the gametime at 13.

Fishooks12

Scioch wrote: »

POM showed his "abrasiveness" comes with its ups and down and ultimately doesnt leave the team with a surplus of anything but penalties.

Sorry now but that's completely unfair.

POM robbed two balls in the first half and made a few decent carries. The two penalties in the second were very marginal. The lineout one wasn't a penalty at all in my opinion

He had a game of two contrasting halves, like many tonight. But your assessment of him is completely over the top

twinytwo

Foxtrol wrote: »

Barnes said he was the last of three Irish infringements in that maul. His alone probably wouldnt have warranted a card but it was a card due to the accumulation of penalties which in the heat of that maul he couldn't have judged.

the same maul that was stopped at least 5 times and barnes didnt call it once

Cpt_Blackbeard

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Sorry now but that's completely unfair.

POM robbed two balls in the first half and made a few decent carries. The two penalties in the second were very marginal. The lineout one wasn't a penalty at all in my opinion

Odd that POM is being criticised for giving away penalties when both of his partners in the backrow gave away two penalties too.

Fireball07

Scioch wrote: »

I dont understand all this Zebo love on here. He did ok but he didnt do much of anything ither, he had little work to do at FB, took a few balls forward and didnt pop up too often in defence. He'd have been useful as fresh legs off the bench but as it was he "did a job" at FB. He'd have caused SA problems going forward if he had space. But he hadnt so he didnt.

As little as he got the ball, he was the back who made more ground than anyone. When he gets a bit of a gap, he generally creates a good chance.

Trimble was actually busy for the length he was on the pitch yet we have the usual story of "Trimble did do much".

He made his tackles, he took the ball into contact, he caught a few balls...he didn't do anything wrong, but he didn't do anything brilliantly.

Reddan showed the gulf between him and Murray when he came on, immediately speeding things up and taking charge.

?? Reddan did well in the first few phases when he came on as we went forward, but then he started dithering and we lacked direction. Thought Murray was better than him tbqh.

.ak

I wonder if SA will be cited for any of the off the ball stuff? McCarthy, Sexton, Strauss and Healy all got tough rides but some seriously dangerous off the ball stuff - especially on Healy causing a possible concussion.

Foxtrol

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I've no idea what you're even trying to say tbh. All I said is that its close between McCarthy and Ryan, but McCarthy deserves the jersey. You look to just have gone of on some bizarre tangent.

I posted

McCarthy is now rightfully ahead of Ryan in my book to be starting with POC when he comes back.

From that you got in a huff stating that one performance doesn't make McCarthy ahead of Ryan. When I called you out on who you'd start you agreed that you would start McCarthy. To me that looks like someone who is going out of their way to find an argument (in your case with anyone who says something that may be deemed in anyway negative to a person with a current or past association with Munster) even if you actually are in full agreement with them.

Fishooks12

Scioch wrote: »

Reddan showed the gulf between him and Murray when he came on,.

Were you watching the same game as me? Reddan was very lethargic when he came on, which is unusual for him

jimbomalley

Strange game to watch. Really pedestrian from Ireland, slowed everything right down between setpieces which really suited the springboks gameplan. Tactics are again at fault I feel for all that is wrong with the team, despite some individually good performances.
Back play was quite poor and predictable, dummy runners were non existant else not fixing the defense else too bloody obvious.
Darcy took a lot of crash ball on which is suicide against a team the size of the saffers, play someone like Downey at 12 if this is what ya wanna do.
Zebo looked good and linked well with tommy but where were the support runners looking for offloads to break down the defense?
Keith did ok but probably underpowered vs a huge saffer midfield. Earlsy 15, Zebo wing and tommy boy at 13 might have been worth a try today.
Sexy boy had a poor enough one, no real direction from the man. Looks lost playing kidneys gameplay compared to joe's.
Still think Murray is too slow to the breakdown and would love to see Marshall/Marmion get game time against Fiji.
Thought Henry did ok against a giant saffer back row, turned over some good ball at breakdown.
Heaslip did ok as captain, deserves another run. Still miles ahead of all other options we have at 8. Shame coughlan is injured, would have loved to see him get game time vs Fiji.
POM did ok too but looked seriously underpowered at times, needs a good year of bulking / strength / power work in the gym to reach his true potential.
McCarthy and DOC to start vs argies, think these two could work well together. Not that Ryan played bad mind but DOC is playing well this year and macca is a better 5 than Ryan.
Front row were good at scrum time, carried well and did what was required. Would love to shove michael bents scrum cap down George hooks fat f**king mouth after his lovely cameo.

All in all same old same old. Tactics are still turgid, new regime please.

Worried vs Argentina too, really stuck it to Wales today. Another southern hemisphere whitewash is on the cards which is kinda worrying. Hope I'm wrong though.

bamboozle

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd definitely take a point or two off Heaslip. He looked good in the first half, but when a captain gets a yellow that leads to a 10 point swing, he should be marked down heavily for it. I'd give POM another mark too because he started well and only faded in his last 10mins on the pitch.

there's a surprise.

Heaslip's yellow card was a case of taking a hit for the team.

.ak

Foxtrol, Cpt_Blackbeard - drop it now.

Cpt_Blackbeard

bamboozle wrote: »

there's a surprise.

Heaslip's yellow card was a case of taking a hit for the team.

It was also a case of our captain missing 10minutes in which we effectively lost the game. Hardly great leadership there...

POM was also given a 5 which would make him our worst player along with Reddan. That's hardly true.

Nippledragon

McCarthy had a great match, really hope he can maintain his form. Put in some thunderous hits, one in particular where he planted Ethzben? (SA no 4) during an advantage play for SA early in the second half. Such a clatther!

Kidney has done nothing since the Slam, Ireland have been going downhill since that, consistency has gone out the window. Good to see a few new players getting game time.

ROG has been a great servant but should be nowhere near the team, he offers nothing: typical thoughtless, conservative Kidney tactics.

Fishooks12

Zebo and Bowe linked up ridiculously well at times. Bit odd too as you usually don't see a winger and 15 play as much ball off each other as they did!

Scioch

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Sorry now but that's completely unfair.

POM robbed two balls in the first half and made a few decent carries. The two penalties in the second were very marginal. The lineout one wasn't a penalty at all in my opinion

He had a game of two contrasting halves, like many tonight. But your assessment of him is completely over the top

I dont think its completely over the top. He did ok but all the talk of his abrasiveness to argue for his selection ahead of Henry when it was an option showed itself tonight to be nothing but wind. I'm not sure how many balls he robbed I seen one and then seen Lenihan attribute one from henry to him (as Lenihan usually does). He was the weaker of himself Henry as Heaslip I think.

I'm not trying to scapegoat him or make out he was bad, but all taken into account his penalties stood out for me more than the rest of his game.

wonder88

was it a full-house at aviva today, looked full enough on tv, only few empty seats visible.

Benny Cake

Scioch wrote: »

Reddan showed the gulf between him and Murray when he came on, immediately speeding things up and taking charge.

Complete and utter nonsense. Murray (rightfully) has gotten allot of flak recently but he was very solid today, his passing was as crisp as it has ever looked and his defense was solid. Reddan gave a lackluster, pedestrian performance today, and will deservedly be behind Murray for the foreseeable future.

Stheno

I enjoyed the game, but thought we were very pedestrian in the last 20 minutes?

Seemed to be a lot of lethargy amongst the team.

.ak

Murray was good today, but his passing wasn't great tbh. A lot of players reaching over their heads or to their toes.

Fishooks12

Benny Cake wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense. Murray (rightfully) has gotten allot of flak recently but he was very solid today, his passing was as crisp as it has ever looked and his defense was solid. Reddan gave a lackluster, pedestrian performance today, and will deservedly be behind Murray for the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't agree with that part. There should still be a question over 9. Murray has been bad and Reddan has been good for Ireland in the past too.

But I agree wholeheartedly with the rest. Murray had a very solid game

.ak

Stheno wrote: »

I enjoyed the game, but thought we were very pedestrian in the last 20 minutes?

Seemed to be a lot of lethargy amongst the team.

I suppose playing 60 min against a super physical team like SA will do that to you. Our depth wasn't good enough for us to filter in the changes early enough.

Fishooks12

.ak wrote: »

Murray was good today, but his passing wasn't great tbh. A lot of players reaching over their heads or to their toes.

Ya, I think that could be down to the improved speed at the base though. Hopefully it's something that will sort itself out because the rest is very good

.ak

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ya, I think that could be down to the improved speed at the base though. Hopefully it's something that will sort itself out because the rest is very good

That's what I was thinking, yeah.

Fishooks12

Stheno wrote: »

I enjoyed the game, but thought we were very pedestrian in the last 20 minutes?

Seemed to be a lot of lethargy amongst the team.

I think they were just wrecked tbh

Ross, Healy and Strauss were all left on too long

Hagz

Scioch wrote: »

Trimble was actually busy for the length he was on the pitch yet we have the usual story of "Trimble did do much".

Didn't do a lot wrong today but wasn't really impressive. I definitely thought he needed to take the inside line on more than one occasion today instead of letting the ball drift towards touch. You say 'yet we have the usual story of "Trimble didn't do much" ' ,......well he didn't did he. Not giving out about him or anything, but he didn't.

Scioch

Fireball07 wrote: »

As little as he got the ball, he was the back who made more ground than anyone. When he gets a bit of a gap, he generally creates a good chance.



He made his tackles, he took the ball into contact, he caught a few balls...he didn't do anything wrong, but he didn't do anything brilliantly.



?? Reddan did well in the first few phases when he came on as we went forward, but then he started dithering and we lacked direction. Thought Murray was better than him tbqh.

On the wing, as I said with space on the wing he'd have cause problems. As a FB he "did a job". Thats not to dismiss him as he was ok, but he was no better than Tribmle who also took the ball on a couple of times and "almost" did something.

Reddan took charge of the forwards, sped up the game and got us moving forward with conviction. At that point we were under pressure facing a much better organised and more disciplined SA side and desperate for points.

Lelantos

.ak wrote: »

Murray was good today, but his passing wasn't great tbh. A lot of players reaching over their heads or to their toes.

Hmm, a bit of reaching here tbh, 3 passes I counted that weren't perfect, am open to correction of course

Hagz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that part. There should still be a question over 9.

With the form that Marmion and Marshall have shown this year, there should be no doubt about that.

Stheno

.ak wrote: »

I suppose playing 60 min against a super physical team like SA will do that to you. Our depth wasn't good enough for us to filter in the changes early enough.

Yeah, seemed like when the subs started coming on, that they lost a bit of momentum.

I guess you could put that down to first game of the season and they not having bonded as a squad yet, given the new recruits?

Given I'm not a regular here, I may be wrong, but Conor Murray seems a bit slow at nine or am I imagining things? Slow is probably the wrong word, but he seems less coordinated than others, as in his knowledge of the position of players is poor?

Scioch

Benny Cake wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense. Murray (rightfully) has gotten allot of flak recently but he was very solid today, his passing was as crisp as it has ever looked and his defense was solid. Reddan gave a lackluster, pedestrian performance today, and will deservedly be behind Murray for the foreseeable future.

Complete and utter crap.

Murray was his usual slow self playing below international standard. He has failed to make the step up. Reddan came on to exhausted forwards to face a more disciplined Bok side with ROG at 10. Reddan is good but he's not the messiah.

bamboozle

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It was also a case of our captain missing 10minutes in which we effectively lost the game. Hardly great leadership there...

POM was also given a 5 which would make him our worst player along with Reddan. That's hardly true.

the french maul was moving towards our line at a rate of knots, at that point our 8 forwards all had one thing in mind 'take it down'

I dont think POM was bad today he was good, but i feel he needs 18 months of serious conditioning to make the physical impact on a game like this that is required from a 6. I'd love to have seen Ferris or SOB out there as their physicality would have put manners on the SA pack.

As an aside todays performance really p1sses me off when i think McCarthy has been playing consistently to this level for a number of season yet DK gave him the grand total of 40 minutes in the WC warm ups to get in the reckoning for the WC.

.ak

Stheno wrote: »

Yeah, seemed like when the subs started coming on, that they lost a bit of momentum.

I guess you could put that down to first game of the season and they not having bonded as a squad yet, given the new recruits?

Given I'm not a regular here, I may be wrong, but Conor Murray seems a bit slow at nine or am I imagining things? Slow is probably the wrong word, but he seems less coordinated than others, as in his knowledge of the position of players is poor?

That has been a fault of Murray previously, but I thought he improved it to be honest today. Having said that, looking in from the outset it's hard to judge an improvement without seeing the previous. He certainly let it creep into his game in the 2nd half.

However, if he continues to improve he could be a solid international SH for tight games.

leonard7

best three players today ... healy , mc carthy and henry

Tox56

Murray didn't have any real shocker passes, but there were quite a few that were a bit loopy or behind the receiver that took the sting out of the move. It's odd because normally his passing is accurate, even if it takes a long time getting there.

.ak

Scioch wrote: »

Complete and utter crap.

Murray was his usual slow self playing below international standard. He has failed to make the step up. Reddan came on to exhausted forwards to face a more disciplined Bok side with ROG at 10. Reddan is good but he's not the messiah.

In fairness Reddan was on a long time before ROG.

leakyboots

According to ESPN, POM conceded 2 penalties - the same amount as Ryan, Ross, Bowe and Henry. Just a bit of reality for the bashers. Had a good first half but faded, as did most. Bear in mind he's only just turned 23, its only his 9th cap and he was up against a serious sized backrow. This guy will be an animal once he puts weight on. Days like this where playing reasonably well while getting your arse kicked are important in development.

Fireball07

Scioch wrote: »

On the wing, as I said with space on the wing he'd have cause problems. As a FB he "did a job". Thats not to dismiss him as he was ok, but he was no better than Tribmle who also took the ball on a couple of times and "almost" did something.

Reddan took charge of the forwards, sped up the game and got us moving forward with conviction. At that point we were under pressure facing a much better organised and more disciplined SA side and desperate for points.

Well I would say Zebo did more than Trimble going forward tbh. Had some nice footwork, and made ground, got us on the front foot more often,

And Reddan didn't take charge properly, that was the problem. You'd expect him to come on and give us fresh impetus, he usually does, but he failed to get the pack moving forward bar a few minutes at the start...and ended up looking like a deer caught in headlights a couple of times too.

We lacked direction for most of the 2nd half, Reddan didn't improve things at all.

Benny Cake

.ak wrote: »

In fairness Reddan was on a long time before ROG.

Correct and right. Not sure what was wrong with Reddan tbh, he is usually much snappier from the base of the ruck.....

leakyboots

Oh and a word for Cian Healy - one of the best in the world in his position. Phenomenal rate of development and only just gone 25, a pup in prop terms. Great game today, love how he stands up to opposition (well, I love it when he's not in a blue shirt )

rockbeast

Scioch wrote: »

I dont understand all this Zebo love on here. He did ok but he didnt do much of anything ither, he had little work to do at FB, took a few balls forward and didnt pop up too often in defence. He'd have been useful as fresh legs off the bench but as it was he "did a job" at FB. He'd have caused SA problems going forward if he had space. But he hadnt so he didnt.

Trimble was actually busy for the length he was on the pitch yet we have the usual story of "Trimble did do much".

Henry also stood up well considering his inexperience and how physical the game was.

POM showed his "abrasiveness" comes with its ups and down and ultimately doesnt leave the team with a surplus of anything but penalties.

McCarthy was immense in defence and solid going forward. Although I'm not sure about MOTM.

Healy was head and shoulders the best player on that pitch from either side. An absolute beast of a man.

Murray was his usual mixed bag, kicked well but offered little in the way of organisation which in such a physical game with so many turnovers would have been a huge benefit to us. "Did a job" but Reddan showed the gulf between him and Murray when he came on, immediately speeding things up and taking charge. Too bad he had the arse end of the game, tired forwards and Ronan O'Gara to try and fashion something.

Less said about ROG the better. He's a waste of space in that setup at this stage and showed as much tonight.

Strauss was fantastic, with Best back Cronin will be out of luck. Didnt like the way the crowd offered him little when he went off covered in blood and roared with delight when ROG's name was called. Who goes to these games ??

Bent came on and did well, strengthened up the scrum which is what he was there fore and you cant really ask any more of him.

Earls and Darcy were ok, limited opportunities going forward, didnt really create much either but were solid enough over all in defence.

Bowe was good under the high ball, but had little opportunity to go forward, still came out looking great though.

Heaslip did ok, needs to work on his game management as a captain though. Kicking out of range is pointless and he should have known it was a waste. Yellow didnt help the cause either.

Rest did well I think, not sure of McFadden being brought in for Trimble though. He's never shown anything at this level to suggest he should be anything but emergency cover. And the whole Sexton to 12 thing is a joke at this stage. It achieves nothing but limits us when ROG gets control of the ball.

Bottom line is we have little in the way of attack. We never once stretched their defence, never got it to a winger who had space. More often than not they ended up smothered by the time the ball got out onto the wing.

But considering how physical it was and who we were missing I'll take a 4 point loss and some experience for Henry, Zebo, Henderson and bringing Strauss and Bent into the fold. At least it wasnt a total loss.

Was about to post my 2c but this mostly covers it! Thanks:) Must add that I don't believe that any Irish player didn't give 100%. The simple fact IMO is that players are being selected that are physically/mentally passed-it(happens us all, no slight on intentions), not quite ready or being played out of position. Time moves on, rugby evolves. More's the pity Kidney wouldn't do one or the other.

RB

.ak

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It was also a case of our captain missing 10minutes in which we effectively lost the game. Hardly great leadership there...

As if POC, BOD or any other captain has not received a YC in their time... How does it make them any less of a captain? It was unfortunate for Heaslip to get a YC for a team penalty, but hardly his fault considering the options. I wouldn't hold it against him, especially in a niggily game.

Stheno

leakyboots wrote: »

Oh and a word for Cian Healy - one of the best in the world in his position. Phenomenal rate of development and only just gone 25, a pup in prop terms. Great game today, love how he stands up to opposition (well, I love it when he's not in a blue shirt )

I was amazed he came back after the five minutes, he looked punch drunk going off.