AI: Ireland v South Africa; Aviva Stadium, Sat 10 Nov [MOD WARNING POST #1160]

leonard7

...i f*cking hate mauls

d-gal

It's depressing to think our 2nd row was more effective at the breakdown than our back row combined. Henry and POM were average but by god Heaslip was terrible, embarrassing as a captain really when you look at it.

Unfortunately the backs were worst. Murray and Reddan were shown up as very average and the quicker we get Marshall and Marmion on the better. Marmion especially has shown huge strides in the last few months and Fiji would be perfect for him.
Sexton was superb from the tee but was abysmal regarding distribution. I suppose it didn't help with a well past D'Arcy and a poor showing of Earls. McSharry and Luke Marshall should get there chance at 12.
The outside backs were potentially exciting, besides Trimble. He is a guy who does the basics properly but I would give anything to see Henshaw with Zebo and Bowe. All would attack from anywhere and at least give an overall flair to our game.
In hindsight our biggest loss to the game was SOB and Kearney. They're key to our game and probably the most important players missing today. We honestly did not miss POC or BOD. The way Sexton played would have seen BOD with little or no impact in the game and Macca put the best performance into the no.5 jersey in a long long time

DEFTLEFTHAND

I thought the boks were very poor, I know they fielded a weakened and inexperienced side. But I still expected a better performance from the new blood.

dfx-

Any away win for South Africa has to be enjoyed, so a great win. Next!

twinytwo

The worst thing about this this game is that while mc carthy,henry and strauss all played excellently the moment that POC,Best and SOB come back the other lads will be instantly dropped by Kidney, no questions asked

Hippo

Dreadful, depressing performance all round really - in terms of 'gameplan', we look completely toothless. Terrific stuff from McCarthy and Healy and in parts Strauss, but we're desperately predictable and easy to defend against. Awful to watch.

chupacabra

Saw the game in Crookhaven about as far away from Dublin as you can get. Fierce rugby folk down there. In general very disappointed. The backrow were always going to struggle but it was pretty shambolic. Rodge kicking it out in the end summed up this current irish team perfectly. Good showings from Zebo and McCarthy though, was very impressed with Zebo actually.

A disappointing end to a disappointing game but at least I got to wear Paul O'Connells 100th cap while yelling PUT THE FEAR OF GOD INTO THEM. :pac:

twinytwo

justsomebloke wrote: »

Not really, the try was going to be scored with heaslip on the pitch or not and we were already playing badly at that stage

maybe, maybe not... hard enough to stop a maul with 8 forwards even harder with 7.

The biggest point for me was they scored 10 points while heaslip was in the bin, we scored nothing while JP was in the bin.

I called JP to go to the bin before the game... some massive saffers across from me wernt too pleased when it happened, if looks could kill id be dead:pac:

Almaviva

SA were very poor in the first half yesterday. As poor a SA performace as i have seen.
Ireland were just poor and so edged the first half. Patternless, with no cutting edge either in forwards or backs.
SA improved slightly in the 2nd half, Ireland played the same, and that was enough for SA to edge the game.
But low standard rugby all round really.

Debate on the Irish players has little point these days. What we saw yesterday, through the enforced injuries, was that Ireland has good strength in depth of players able to player mediocre Kidney rugby.
We can make no real judgements of their real merits (is MCCarthy interntional standard, can Earls play 13, Reddan v Murray, etc, etc), because the standard of coaching is so limited. Strategies are so limited and lacking in system, invention, and modern rugby thinking, and players are being asked to play to such an unsophisticated level of international rugby that we cannot judge them. 'Effort' alone more or less decides who looks to be playing well. We simply dont know what they would do (as a team that is: what they can do with their provinces we know well and that is very telling), who would really step up to the level, if the coaching and strategy was moved up a level.
But I am optimistic for Irish rugby. The provincial and academy structures are good and producing good raw materail. There is a good conveyor of young talent. But to separate the wheat from the chaff in a green jersey, we will have to wait until there is an international level coaching team installed to really see who are the international level players. Roll on the post DK era.

Swiwi

Teferi wrote: »

Honestly, I've just looked back at the game and ROG got a grand total of 5 touches of the ball. 1 was when the backline was in a bit of chaos and the other 4 it looks like he was standing in a similar position to Sexton.

However, I was at the ground and he was standing flatter. I'm not suggesting O'Gara should replace Sexton, far from it, I just think the Irish backline needs to be flatter in attack, they were full of endeavour, but never really looked like scoring.

clsmooth

leonard7 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20284858

woah check 1min 11 seconds Sonia doesn't hold back there

He sounded a bit flustered! 5 losses in the trot is unacceptable. I think if we fail to beat Argentina he could be gone by the end of AI.

twinytwo

Swiwi wrote: »

However, I was at the ground and he was standing flatter. I'm not suggesting O'Gara should replace Sexton, far from it, I just think the Irish backline needs to be flatter in attack, they were full of endeavour, but never really looked like scoring.

they need to be flatter, and they need to move as one... not just wait for the ball to come to them, hardly anyone was taking the ball at pace.

phog

Scioch wrote: »

And how does Reddan up the tempo ? He has to take charge of the game. He wasnt indecisive he was lacking options due to everyone being out on their feet and the Boks being well organised and forcing us to throw more men into rucks and slowing ball. He has to take risks like going forward before offloading (where he was caught by Pinear) to inject pace into the attack. He cant do what Murray does which is simply turn up and pass the ball.

Reddans task when he came on involved a hell of a lot more than what Murray is asked to do so I dont think it at all fair to claim Murray was better simply because there was less expectation.

You're implying that if Redden doesn't start a game he shouldn't get the bench spot.


BTW, Murray did a lot more than just pass the ball.

phog

The losing of the game:

Ireland on the attack, Sexton cross field kicks but into their 22. SA catches the kick & calls for mark, shoots the ball downfield, touches the tips of Trimbles fingers and rolls into touch. SA gain 60mtrs and the lineout. Win their lineout, maul to tryline. YC for Heaslip. Tap penalty for SA turned over by Ireland under our posts, poor pass from Sexton to whoever could catch it, kicked to touch by Trimble, better option would have been a kick downfield.

ROGs chip ahead with 80+ on the clock, we may never have got the try but at least retain the ball.

thomond2006

I was at the game.

They scored 10 when Heaslip in the bin, Ireland didn't score when Pietersen was in the bin. That was the major difference.

Not the best atmosphere, it took the North Stand to get a mexican wave going after repeated failed attempts by the end of the East Stand.

Given I was watching the game behind the posts, it's hard to say who played well. Was McCarthy's MOTM deserved?

Also why did ROG kick it away at the end? Crowd were stunned!!

Almaviva

clsmooth wrote: »

He sounded a bit flustered! 5 losses in the trot is unacceptable. I think if we fail to beat Argentina he could be gone by the end of AI.

He's slicker than a politician at evading questions. Note how he says he wont make 'excuses' as a way of deflecting having to offer any explanation for what went wrong. Uses the same technique in the RTE interview: effectively "I wont answer your question because that would be making excuses, and I'm to reasonable a guy to stoop to that". She didnt ask for excuses Dec, but give some indication that you have an idea what is wrong and what you might do to fix it.
And how 'humble' he is about his own position - "its not about me, its the team, we just want a win, I'm not important". He is good at it.

Almaviva

thomond2006 wrote: »

it took the North Stand to get a mexican wave going:D

They must have simple tastes.:D

.ak

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I cant ever view those clips on youtube on boards. Have a GS2. Any ideas what is wrong?

A little off topic, but make sure you have the latest version of android and update flash on the Play store.

porterbelly

Ulster are playing a great brand of rugby this season. Munster are trying to implement a good style of rugby. Leinster have always played an attractive style of rugby. Anyone who's seen Connacht this season, particularly v Quins and Leinster will testify that Connacht are playing some cracking rugby.

Yet when the national team comes together it's just pure stodge. Not once did we look like opening them up in the backs. D'arcy was used on the crash ball every time, first of all he's about a stone lighter than De Villiers and secondly meat and drink to the Saffers. I can't remember one time when we got the ball moving out the backs in one on one situations giving one of the outside backs a chance to fix his man. And that's the only strategy that works against the Boks. Ludicrous. Les Kiss has alot to answer for

thomond2006

Oh and Kidney out.

.ak

The IRFU have a lot to answer for. Why is Les Kiss double-jobbing it in the first place? Why wasn't Gaffney replaced with an attacks coach?

leonard7

we could do with less kiss and more fight

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

The IRFU have a lot to answer for. Why is Les Kiss double-jobbing it in the first place? Why wasn't Gaffney replaced with an attacks coach?

Well they'd say that Foley is on board as defence coach so Kiss can concentrate on attack. Nonsense of course.

The Ireland coaches get more time with their squad than any of their rivals yet the players looked like strangers out there. It's not good enough.

If by some miracle Kidney survives with a new contract, then his coaching team have to be cleared out.

jamiedav2011

Have to give a special word to Cian Healy yesterday. What an absolute warrior this guy is. Constantly flogged by the Irish management, but he just keeps coming back for more and more. Best LH in the world at the moment?

Mr.Applepie

.ak wrote: »

The IRFU have a lot to answer for. Why is Les Kiss double-jobbing it in the first place? Why wasn't Gaffney replaced with an attacks coach?

Why attack when you can defend your way to victory!

phog

Guys need to respect the cap and play like it's their first and last. The only 2 who seemed to do that yesterday was Healy and McCarthy, both threw themselves at everything.

.ak

phog wrote: »

Guys need to respect the cap and play like it's their first and last. The only 2 who seemed to do that yesterday was Healy and McCarthy, both threw themselves at everything.

I think we threw the kitchen sink at them in fairness. I wouldn't doubt anyone's commitment from 1 to 23. The problem is, throwing the kitchen sink at a team like SA will get you no where. We needed to play smart rugby and I don't think we did. SA capitalized that when they noticed what was happening at HT.

As someone posted above, nothing was left on the field...

.ak

I also think Strauss is worth a mention in that department. Clearly marked by SA, he was bloodied within minutes of the game, but soldiered on and took a battering all day. He could barely walk off the field.

JRant

phog wrote: »

Guys need to respect the cap and play like it's their first and last. The only 2 who seemed to do that yesterday was Healy and McCarthy, both threw themselves at everything.

Would you ever give over with that sort of nonsense. Henry and Struas had great games while alot of others were solid if unspectacular.
When a team is playing this badly for this long it time for some serious changes to be made. Declan "Teflon" Kidney is getting away with murder. How he's not being called into IRFU HQ and handed his P45 is beyond me.

Fishooks12

phog wrote: »

Guys need to respect the cap and play like it's their first and last. The only 2 who seemed to do that yesterday was Healy and McCarthy, both threw themselves at everything.

I'd say every player on the field gave it their all. I just don't buy this theory that the players aren't trying.

Most of them actually played well. But we're hampered by a lack of any tactics with ball in hand, as we always are

phog

.ak wrote: »

I think we threw the kitchen sink at them in fairness. I wouldn't doubt anyone's commitment from 1 to 23. The problem is, throwing the kitchen sink at a team like SA will get you no where. We needed to play smart rugby and I don't think we did. SA capitalized that when they noticed what was happening at HT.

As someone posted above, nothing was left on the field...

How did we throw the kitchen sink at them, SA were there for the beating, we were 12 - 3 up and threw away the lead and then then went behind. We didn't score in about 50mins. Did we really threaten their try line. If tacklers tackled like McCarthy then we may never have conceded the yardage we did, if we competed at the breakdown with ferocity we may have gotten quicker ball, turned over theirs.

For me they were there for the taking and we allowed them play and win, which is bitterly disappointing.

Tox56

It's probably not a coincidence that Healy and McCarthy are in extremely physical positions where you really can "throw yourself at everything", it's more about brawn than skill (relative to the backs for example, not saying they aren't skillful).

They were fantastic yesterday but you can't compare them to the likes of Murray/Sexton/Bowe/Zebo who have totally different roles. It isn't Sexton's job to throw himself at everything, and if he did it's not really going to get him anywhere.

JRant

.ak wrote: »

I also think Strauss is worth a mention in that department. Clearly marked by SA, he was bloodied within minutes of the game, but soldiered on and took a battering all day. He could barely walk off the field.

As was Sexton, he copped at least two dangerous hits early in that game.

I'm all for keeping the head on the field but SA were taking cheap shots all day, the refs didn't want to know and we just let them. We should have brought out the biff at some stage.

phog

JRant wrote: »

Would you ever give over with that sort of nonsense. Henry and Struas had great games while alot of others were solid if unspectacular. .

Is that enough when playing SA especially when they were piss poor.

Unspectacular, yeah I suppose that what sums it up.

gally74

We have serious issues at center, we need strength,,,

Zebo, darcy, earls all look too light ,

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

The IRFU have a lot to answer for. Why is Les Kiss double-jobbing it in the first place? Why wasn't Gaffney replaced with an attacks coach?

He isn't double jobbing in fairness

fitz

Teferi wrote: »

This is the very thing. I want to have good memories of ROG. I wish Kidney would stop ruining them for me.

It's John Hayes all over again.

jamiedav2011

phog wrote: »

How did we throw the kitchen sink at them, SA were there for the beating, we were 12 - 3 up and threw away the lead and then then went behind. We didn't score in about 50mins. Did we really threaten their try line. If tacklers tackled like McCarthy then we may never have conceded the yardage we did, if we competed at the breakdown with ferocity we may have gotten quicker ball, turned over theirs.

For me they were there for the taking and we allowed them play and win, which is bitterly disappointing.

Hmmm I don't think it's nearly as simple as that, you're not giving the Boks, one of the most physical teams in world rugby, much credit there.

In my opinion, we gave everything we had, as could be seen by the tiredness of some of the forwards in the last 5 mins around rucks, and it wasn't this that lost us the game, it was the lack of any cohesive attacking strategy. Our attacking plan seemed to revolve solely around bringing Zebo or Bowe in on a switch, and kicking fecking garryowens into their 22.

phog

Tox56 wrote: »

It's probably not a coincidence that Healy and McCarthy are in extremely physical positions where you really can "throw yourself at everything", it's more about brawn than skill (relative to the backs for example, not saying they aren't skillful).

They were fantastic yesterday but you can't compare them to the likes of Murray/Sexton/Bowe/Zebo who have totally different roles. It isn't Sexton's job to throw himself at everything, and if he did it's not really going to get him anywhere.

True but when it's your man you want to tackle him not fall off him. Darcy twice yesterday both in or near our 22

jamiedav2011

Tox56 wrote: »

It's probably not a coincidence that Healy and McCarthy are in extremely physical positions where you really can "throw yourself at everything", it's more about brawn than skill (relative to the backs for example, not saying they aren't skillful).

They were fantastic yesterday but you can't compare them to the likes of Murray/Sexton/Bowe/Zebo who have totally different roles. It isn't Sexton's job to throw himself at everything, and if he did it's not really going to get him anywhere.

And, in saying that, Sexton was very good defensively yesterday, despite being targeted with cheap shots and being half injured. Such a plus to his game.

Fishooks12

TBH I'm stunned at the negativity here. People need to look at this in perspective. We all know we would probably go into the game with the same tired turgid Kidney game plan that we always use. This mixed with our injuries meant we could have been well beaten. But our players stood up and took the game to SA as best they could without cohesive strategy.

JRant

phog wrote: »

Is that enough when playing SA especially when they were piss poor.

[SIZE="5"]Unspectacular[/SIZE], yeah I suppose that what sums it up.

I just don't see the point in going after the players on this one to be honest. We had enough ball in the first half to really hurt SA but our attack is so nonexistent that we barely got into their 22 all game.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

It's probably not a coincidence that Healy and McCarthy are in extremely physical positions where you really can "throw yourself at everything", it's more about brawn than skill (relative to the backs for example, not saying they aren't skillful).

They were fantastic yesterday but you can't compare them to the likes of Murray/Sexton/Bowe/Zebo who have totally different roles. It isn't Sexton's job to throw himself at everything, and if he did it's not really going to get him anywhere.

That's definitely a major part of it. Sexton and Murray should have helped them a lot more though.

I pity the outside backs because we clearly don't have any decent structures out wide, and probably won't until February, or until a new coaching team arrives.

Tox56

phog wrote: »

True but when it's your man you want to tackle him not fall off him. Darcy twice yesterday both in or near our 22

Are you suggesting he wasn't trying? We know D'Arcy is running out of time at this level, we just don't have many alternatives. I could go out there and give 110% but I would still miss several tackles because I'm just not good enough.

He was clearly tiring and those are tackles he would have made a few years ago, it's not a lack of effort causing him to miss those tackles.

Lennonist

It's often the case with managers that they stay around well beyond the time they are effective. It doesn't happen all the time but most managers have a shelf life, I'd say Declan Kidney is well beyond his. He's beginning to sour his own rep at this stage, though history will be kind to him given he was boss when Ireland won the Grand Slam.

jamiedav2011

Fishooks12 wrote: »

TBH I'm stunned at the negativity here. People need to look at this in perspective. We all know we would probably go into the game with the same tired turgid Kidney game plan that we always use. This mixed with our injuries meant we could have been well beaten. But our players stood up and took the game to SA as best they could without cohesive strategy.

Absolutely, I'm actually quite happy with the game in a weird way.

Isn't it sad though that we as fans take Kidney's influence for granted at this stage, and look to win in spite of it, rather than because of it?

jamiedav2011

Tox56 wrote: »

Are you suggesting he wasn't trying? We know D'Arcy is running out of time at this level, we just don't have many alternatives. I could go out there and give 110% but I would still miss several tackles because I'm just not good enough.

He was clearly tiring and those are tackles he would have made a few years ago, it's not a lack of effort causing him to miss those tackles.

I actually thought Darcy played well yesterday. We'll miss him hugely when he goes tbh, don't think many posters realise the impact he has for both Leinster and Ireland.

Missing a tackle on a marauding JDV is no indication that you're not trying!

goreyguy

McSharry for Ireland

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was at the game.

They scored 10 when Heaslip in the bin, Ireland didn't score when Pietersen was in the bin. That was the major difference.

Not the best atmosphere, it took the North Stand to get a mexican wave going after repeated failed attempts by the end of the East Stand.

Given I was watching the game behind the posts, it's hard to say who played well. Was McCarthy's MOTM deserved?

Also why did ROG kick it away at the end? Crowd were stunned!!

Basically to put us out of our misery.

ScissorPaperRock

When I think about it, I don't think I've ever heard a member of the Irish squad mention a gameplan, or refer to a particular style that the play etc. They talk about "the performance" and how, if they look after it, the results should follow. But I wonder if it's a sign of a general lack of clarity throughout the whole squad and coaching team about what the Irish brand of rugby is supposed to be.

On a positive note though, I think the ferocity displayed yesterday would put away most of the teams we face in the six nations, especially if some more thought was given to creating space. With the likes of O'Brien in the squad, and Kearney at full back, breaking/cutting through the gain line would happen a bit more it would seem.