Why do schools still teach seasons based on solar timing and not meterological

mel.b

Is it just because of culture and history of the Celts & their festivals that Irish schools teach the seasons based on Solar timing rather than metrological seasons by temperature? I've never understood why the Irish call what is probably their hottest month of the year 'autumn'

Can any teachers with an intrest in the weather (or anyone else!) enlighten me?

muckisluck

Traditionally the seasons have always been taught the same way. When using the Irish language the translations of the months of the year are sometimes directly aligned with this way of teaching e.g September = Mean Fomhair or Middle of autumn, October = Deireadh Fomhair or end of autumn. As children progress through the science syllabus at a later stage they learn the meteorological way of defining seasons. I think it is becoming more noticeable with global warming though as now the weather doesn't seem to match what is being taught any more.

mel.b

Thanks muckisluck! Interesting though that even though people are taught the meterological system later they still revert to what they first learnt (in my experiences with the people i work with anyway!)

who_me

Yeah, it actually wasn't that long ago that I realised that "my" definition of the season didn't tally with others'.

I'm assuming you mean 1st of February, May, August and November as the first days of each season. It does make sense, in a way; since it puts the longest day almost at the middle of the summer and the shortest mid-winter.

mel.b

who_me wrote: »

Yeah, it actually wasn't that long ago that I realised that "my" definition of the season didn't tally with others'.

I'm assuming you mean 1st of February, May, August and November as the first days of each season. It does make sense, in a way; since it puts the longest day almost at the middle of the summer and the shortest mid-winter.

I was taught (raised in Australia) the meterological method - 1st Dec, March, June & Sept as the starts of the seasons. Even after 5 years in Ireland i still have a hard enough time working out when autumn is (as an example), when people say things like 'lets do that in the autumn', let only them having to adjust for an extra month to suit the irish way of labelling the seasons!

Spindle

I think the astronomical method of the seasons is much nicer way to teach plus it is officially what is in our Calendar.

With the Celts the seasons were closely linked to the sun, and used it as a method of telling time etc, as if you were dependent on when it got warm to tell it was summer, it would be an every changing day, sometimes snow can last till March/April. The sun does not change over short periods of time.

This can be seen with Newgrange, where the sun only hits the back chamber on the shortest day of the year in middle of Winter. Also mid-summer (longest day) falls in June, which puts it in the middle of Summer in this method.

It provides a nice symmetry to the seasons and provides a link to history and it is linked to Solar activity which in my eyes defines seasons better.

Science has redefined seasons based mainly on temperatures, so based on this fact you could say that Winter could extend to the middle of April in certain years, for instance if a Little Ice Age were to take hold, so in this case they would have to redefine the seasons.

If you were living on or near the Equator you would have no notion either of seasons apart, from maybe a wet and dry one. So seasons are very local as well.

gbee

The Irish seasons are in fact the correct seasons, and they mark the apparent ascension and descent of the orb in our orbit and mark the four cardinal points which mark the mid points, nearest point and furthest point.

Weather follows on, whilst our trip around the sun is fairly precise, our weather patterns are rarely so. We need the increasing warmth from the sun in spring to kick off the germination season and so on.

Solair

It's probably not very logical in this part of the world to use the weather to define seasons as it is so random and chaotic. You could pretty much say there's a cooler period (winter) and a warmer period (summer). Spring and autumn are pretty vague and shift depending on how plants react to weather patterns each year.

It might make more sense in Australia or continental Europe or America to define distinctive seasons based on climatic conditions but, for islands in the Atlantic that starts to make less sense.

For Ireland and Britain the weather patterns are very much more dependent on changing winds and pressure systems than anything else which throws a large amount of chaos to the mix. There's really very little stability during any of our seasons.

It's possible to have a mild, wet winter where it barely freezes or an occasional artic deep freeze.

Summer can be warm or barely distinguishable from spring and autumn some years.

There's also a lot of blurring and changing between seasons. Spring can start very early or very late. Summer can run into nearly October some years or look like it's ended in August.

I remember years where we were still mowing the lawn at nearly Christmas!

gbee

Solair wrote: »

I remember years where we were still mowing the lawn at nearly Christmas!

Absolutely, not too many people understand this. It comes up a few times, and we can have a two week spring in February or even just a weekend.

I find the problem with attitude is people wanting three months of spring and three months of summer, when in fact we might never have a summer in any given year, a weekend spring followed by winter, a day or two of summer and back to winter with no appreciable autumn at all.

tolosenc

It annoys me. When I lived abroad, I realised that in this regard I'd been ****ed over by the Irish schooling system.

It's kind of like arguing the Sun orbits the earth in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary. August is our hottest month on average, and February is the coldest. Ancient Pagan tradition vs modern science. If anything, July, August, September are summer here.

gbee

tolosenc wrote: »

If anything, July, August, September are summer here.

Should that not be either?

From a sun worshippers point of view: we have our best weather patterns in our winter period, more clear skies and our worst in the summer with lots of cloud and rain.

It was like that with exceptions and it is like that with exceptions today.

hytrogen

What I find disappointing is the loss of skills and experience once used to define and predict seasonal forecasts.
For example, pagan farmers used the moon cycle to plant, grow & harvest their crops annually so on the full moon in August would be harvest day, hence the term Lunasa or as we call August.
We have become very dependant on computed wx predictions and from working in an industry that's highly dependant and sensitive to wx forecasting (marine) 6 out of 10 times the computer is somewhat accurate and the rest us pure guessing Imao.
As regards global warming, yes it is a factor to consider but in reality we are only accelerating the phenomenon slightly, much like an annual season change it does occur naturally like a cycle. From your own micro climates (where we all live respectively) we all should notice the changes and this is the experience I speak of at the top of my points that goes ignored sometimes..

catch.23

tolosenc wrote: »

It annoys me. When I lived abroad, I realised that in this regard I'd been ****ed over by the Irish schooling system.

It's kind of like arguing the Sun orbits the earth in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary. August is our hottest month on average, and February is the coldest. Ancient Pagan tradition vs modern science. If anything, July, August, September are summer here.

Actually July is out hottest month and January our coldest. Also June is warmer than September.

It's all available here.

Emeraldy Pebbles

tolosenc wrote: »

It annoys me. When I lived abroad, I realised that in this regard I'd been ****ed over by the Irish schooling system.

Can't understand why it would affect your life so much.

tolosenc wrote: »

It's kind of like arguing the Sun orbits the earth in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary. August is our hottest month on average, and February is the coldest. Ancient Pagan tradition vs modern science. If anything, July, August, September are summer here.

January is our coldest month, and with that cold behind it, it's not surprising that February is colder than November and December.

varberg

Always thought about this system that it was more accurate for here than in other places, early february in ireland snowdrops and early flowers appear after winter, then the daffodils. By comparison some of these flowers are much later in other countries with differant variations of a climate than they are usually in ireland.It often got cold in november in ireland suggesting winter but i suppose nowadays its not as cold in november. Its still after halloween and the fruits of autumn which ties in with ancient irish our calender. This years november has a lot of flies and insects still out and about which is more autumn than winter.It was 12degrees today outside when i was in the car.

Modern science methods are good and often make sence but feeling whats about you and interpreting it like fishermen and farmers and those always outdoors do helps form opinions often differant from meteorologists who often spend days in warm offices and rely on computer calculations. Irish houses too tend to be warm when its warm outside and colder when its colder outside while on the continent the houses have a constant temperature all year around.Generally im finding from going outside that than its warmer in ireland in october november than in feb march, i put this down to the fact that the heat of the summer is still about in these months in some respect, in rocks and water and land and that things are cooling down slowly rather than in feb march when they are warming up slowly.

Someone said that june and july are warmer than september october but if you swim in the sea you will find generally that the sea is warmer in september october than earlier in the year mainly thanks to the few months of sunshine preceeding it.

A gentle winter would be nice this one, we havent adapted roadwise or society wise for another harsh one. A few sunny days mid winter are always appreciated in ireland(nearly as much as in summer time!). The solar timing system suits our climate best i reckon.