N86 scheme

kingdumb

Great to see An Bord Pleanala’s seeing some sense and rejecting the controversial NRA redevelopment scheme for the N86 from Camp to Dingle.

lottpaul

kingdumb wrote: »

Great to see An Bord Pleanala’s seeing some sense and rejecting the controversial NRA redevelopment scheme for the N86 from Camp to Dingle.

I only heard a quick report on Raidio na G - mentioned cycle lanes etc - do you have a link to the decision or a fuller a/c?

kingdumb

There is a bit in the Times today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1112/1224326473671.html

lottpaul wrote: »

I only heard a quick report on Raidio na G - mentioned cycle lanes etc - do you have a link to the decision or a fuller a/c?

galwaycyclist

lottpaul wrote: »

I only heard a quick report on Raidio na G - mentioned cycle lanes etc - do you have a link to the decision or a fuller a/c?

Attached

traleespud

Excuse my ignorance here (I'm not a cyclist nor have I seen designs) but I would have thought a dedicated cycle lane would be exactly what many cycling groups would be lobbying FOR not AGAINST. I see some of the new road into Annascaul has a cycle lane separated from the road by a grass margin and looks to be a fantastic idea. Surely this is safer option even if it does require the road width to be slightly wider. I can't understand why cycling groups are welcoming a re design???? It has to be better than nothing at all???

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance here (I'm not a cyclist nor have I seen designs) but I would have thought a dedicated cycle lane would be exactly what many cycling groups would be lobbying FOR not AGAINST. I see some of the new road into Annascaul has a cycle lane separated from the road by a grass margin and looks to be a fantastic idea. Surely this is safer option even if it does require the road width to be slightly wider. I can't understand why cycling groups are welcoming a re design???? It has to be better than nothing at all???

May I respectfully suggest that you read the letter from An Bord Pleanala as it captures the concerns about putting a recreational cycle route adjacent to traffic. It doesnt say anything about doing nothing.

lottpaul

I have to say I sometimes despair of planning in this country. The piece of road that has already been upgraded - just to the east of Annascaul - has been built with these cycleways etc to either side. How could they have been permitted there and be considered a danger between Annascaul and Lispole?



As for the idea of developing a cycleway on the Dingle Way - well, good luck with that. It would cost a small fortune to upgrade it to any sort of suitable standard.

Whatever the merits or the opposite the net result will be more delays on a piece of road that badly needs some upgrading and improvement.

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

May I respectfully suggest that you read the letter from An Bord Pleanala as it captures the concerns about putting a recreational cycle route adjacent to traffic. It doesnt say anything about doing nothing.

I wouldn't have posted if I didn't read it. It does mention in its revision request that the road width be reduced and the cycle way be omitted. The point I was making is surely a cycle way is better than no cycle way. Don't get me wrong i don't wish to get into driver v cyclist war or a tit for tat argument. What confuses me is what exactly are the concerns of the cyclist groups and what are there suggestions???

I get the hedgerow, tree line and environmental impact etc that's fair enough.

What exactly do cycling groups want in there ideal world. What are the options other than excluding the cycle way altogether ?? At the end if the day the road needs drastic improvement for tourism/employment and not to mention the benefits dingle harbour would reap from better road infrastructure!!!

TBH I thought the inclusion of a cycle way in the project was a bonus to begin with. The placement of the path 2meters from cars is safe all round for everyone!! With the recent boom of cycling as a hobby/past time there has been many a debate on local and national radio recently about cyclists cycling 2and 3 abreast on narrow roads resulting in near miss accidents and dangerous situations. Surely cycle ways like this puts an end to these problems???

The Tralee bypass is about 16km and contains a similar cycle way with no objections or concerns?? It also contains a wider road in the form of a dual carriage way. Other than attractive recreational amenity, what's the difference???

Mrs Dempsey

traleespud wrote: »

............. there has been many a debate on local and national radio recently about cyclists cycling 2and 3 abreast on narrow roads resulting in near miss accidents and dangerous situations.............
The Tralee bypass is about 16km and contains a similar cycle way...............

I cycle, motorcycle & drive. The most vulnerable thing I do is clcle alone out the country; motorists think they can squeze by in the face of oncoming traffic; ever had a car mirror hit your elbow? When with a group motorists just have to wait till there is no oncoming traffic - they don't like it but hey that's the way it is.
Hopefully the Tralee cycle lane will be a bit wider than the one on the Castleisland bypass - if you meet someone pushing a buggy its a snooker!
I take your point about any cycle lane being better than none but have a hard look at the cycle lane on Brewery road, is it one way East for cyclists, what is the drill when a cyclist meets another cyclist heading West in the cycle lane (on wrong side of road)? Is it a parking place near the school & why is there yeild triangles on the cycle lane for the 2 gates of the Greyhound track?
You are possibly not a cyclist?
Apologies on hijack so!

traleespud

Mrs Dempsey wrote: »

I cycle, motorcycle & drive. The most vulnerable thing I do is clcle alone out the country; motorists think they can squeze by in the face of oncoming traffic; ever had a car mirror hit your elbow? When with a group motorists just have to wait till there is no oncoming traffic - they don't like it but hey that's the way it is.
Hopefully the Tralee cycle lane will be a bit wider than the one on the Castleisland bypass - if you meet someone pushing a buggy its a snooker!
I take your point about any cycle lane being better than none but have a hard look at the cycle lane on Brewery road, is it one way East for cyclists, what is the drill when a cyclist meets another cyclist heading West in the cycle lane (on wrong side of road)? Is it a parking place near the school & why is there yeild triangles on the cycle lane for the 2 gates of the Greyhound track?
You are possibly not a cyclist?
Apologies on hijack so!

The cycle lane on this proposed project was to be completely separated from the road with a 2m grass margin in between motorist and cyclist. It's nothing at all like the painted line that runs along some of the roads in town.

This would prevent any interaction with traffic and the vulnerable cyclist. This is the way forward making things safer for all.

I won't lie I have been left frustrated stuck behind a group of cyclists in the past.

Whilst a car may get an opportunity to safely overtake a group of cyclists it is twice as difficult for a lorry/articulated truck or large coach to find an opportunity.

The road to dingle carries a large volume of heavy goods vehicles to the pier for the fishing industry and also coaches full of tourists. In this day and age it's madness to expect a car,truck or coach to sit at 15-20mph behind a large group of cyclists for 10 miles.

Mrs Dempsey

traleespud wrote: »

..........it's madness to expect a car,truck or coach to sit at 15-20mph behind a large group of cyclists for 10 miles.

Fair point - the group I cycle with would single out in those circumstances and give some indication to following traffic when the road ahead is clear. In fairness when I drive I prefer not to be held up & that extends to hesitant motorists whose breal lights come on for no apparent reason - like meeting another car on a wide straight road - which the Dingle road aint & looks like staying that way a wee bit longer..
I occasionally do motorcycle marshal for cyclr races - now that can be interesting..............

carchaeologist

What cracks me up is when cyclists cycle two abreast when there's clearly no room to do so.

A friend of mine used to say 'they don't pay road tax so they have no rights on here!'

kingdumb

Tell you friend that there is no such thing as road tax. Roads are paid for via general and local taxation.

carchaeologist wrote: »

A friend of mine used to say 'they don't pay road tax so they have no rights on here!'

kingdumb

Far far as I know the bypass will have paths of the same design as the Castleisland one !

Mrs Dempsey wrote: »

Hopefully the Tralee cycle lane will be a bit wider than the one on the Castleisland bypass - if you meet someone pushing a buggy its a snooker!

what_traffic

Useful reading:
http://www.cyclist.ie/2012/11/cyclists-welcome-rejection-by-an-board-pleanala-of-controversial-kerry-n86-road-design/

@traleespud Road Cyclists wont use the Greenway or these cycle paths anyhow as they are not designed for them. Road Cyclists on road bikes can travel at 30-40km on the flat - Greenways are not designed for those kind of speeds.

traleespud

[Quote=Road Cyclists on road bikes can travel at 30-40km on the flat - Greenways are not designed for those kind of speeds.[/Quote]

There's very little flat road to dingle I'm afraid unless your coming straight from the tour the France you'd be very lucky to reach speeds like that!!!

what_traffic

traleespud wrote: »

There's very little flat road to dingle I'm afraid unless your coming straight from the tour the France you'd be very lucky to reach speeds like that!!!

Bit of a Doh moment there traleespud. Put on your critical thinking cap. Pretty obvious very little flat road on road to Dingle so how fast do you think they will be going on the Downhill sections? Hint it's greater than 30-40kmph

traleespud

what_traffic wrote: »

Bit of a Doh moment there traleespud. Put on your critical thinking cap. Pretty obvious very little flat road on road to Dingle so how fast do you think they will be going on the Downhill sections? Hint it's greater than 30-40kmph

An ya fair enough like I said I don't cycle so that never occurred to me!! Your the expert !!!

I still haven't heard any alternative suggestions to the problem however??

Mrs Dempsey

carchaeologist wrote: »

What cracks me up is when cyclists cycle two abreast when there's clearly no room to do so...........

But there is room to cylcle two abreast, unless one of them is in the hedge - where some motorists would like them & sometimes are clearly motivated to put them there.
I guess you mean there is no room for you to pass? :cool:

what_traffic

traleespud wrote: »

An ya fair enough like I said I don't cycle so that never occurred to me!! Your the expert !!!

I still haven't heard any alternative suggestions to the problem however??

Upgrade the road alright and put in hard shoulders etc but build a separate Greenway away from the N86 for leisure cyclists based on the Great Western Greenway on Mayo - that goes from Achill Sound to Westport.
Build something a 10year will cycle on
Probably will need to build sections of the Greenway close to N86 in spots but strive to build it away if at all possible. Use lightly trafficed local roads for sections of the greenway and sections of old railway alignment (that is not part of the N86 now)

traleespud

what_traffic wrote: »

Upgrade the road alright and put in hard shoulders etc but build a separate Greenway away from the N86 for leisure cyclists based on the Great Western Greenway on Mayo - that goes from Achill Sound to Westport.
Build something a 10year will cycle on
Probably will need to build sections of the Greenway close to N86 in spots but strive to build it away if at all possible. Use lightly trafficed local roads for sections of the greenway and sections of old railway alignment (that is not part of the N86 now)

But that's a totally different project really altogether to be fair. I like to walk quite a bit in the evenings after work to clear the head and for a bit of exercise. It's similar to an avid walker or walking group saying the foot path is too close to the road and it doesn't offer an attractive recreational amenity so instead we want a nice walkway built away from the road with nice hedging and flora a fauna etc. So we are objecting. It's total lunacy.

Lets call a spade a spade here the road as it was originally designed was to cost €65 million the inclusion of separate Greenway away from the road to accommodate cyclists is obviously going to cost extra especially if there's a lot of knick knack work for it to include rail line and under trafficked country roads etc. Seems like a complete WASTE of money to me when you think the state our country is in at the moment, the HSE just reported deficits of €400 million but yet we want to spend extra money on building a posh cycle way despite the fact that one could have been included in the original road construction. Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy???

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy???

Yes probably. In Mayo your posh cycle way cost 4 million and is making 7 million a year back for the local community. This road was grotesquely overspec'd for what it was supposed to be - 28m wide. It was essentially a dual carriageway road bed being driven down the length of the peninsula. By following Bord Pleanala's changes you get to have both an improved road and, if it is done sensibly, a fantastic greenway. And probably for substantially less than 65million. The days when this country could write road engineers blank cheques were over ages ago.

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes probably. In Mayo your posh cycle way cost 4 million and is making 7 million a year back for the local community. This road was grotesquely overspec'd for what it was supposed to be - 28m wide. It was essentially a dual carriageway road bed being driven down the length of the peninsula. By following Bord Pleanala's changes you get to have both an improved road and, if it is done sensibly, a fantastic greenway. And probably for substantially less than 65million. The days when this country could write road engineers blank cheques were over ages ago.

7 million WOW!!! Fair enough if it can bring in that sort of dosh. Would most of this be generated from non Irish tourists??? I think particularly because dingle town s world renowned for obvious reasons with French, German and Americans etc I don't think it would actually matter to them whether there was a dedicated route or not. If a foreign tourist is coming to Kerry on a cycling holiday there going to make there way to dingle regardless of whether there's a dedicated greenway or not.

Now dont get me wrong I also get what your saying. I guess if it can all be included without spending extra over and above the original estimate then it is win win all round. But to be honest I wouldn't be very optimistic at this prospect. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is!!!

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

7 million WOW!!! Fair enough if it can bring in that sort of dosh. Would most of this be generated from non Irish tourists??? I think particularly because dingle town s world renowned for obvious reasons with French, German and Americans etc I don't think it would actually matter to them whether there was a dedicated route or not. If a foreign tourist is coming to Kerry on a cycling holiday there going to make there way to dingle regardless of whether there's a dedicated greenway or not.

Now dont get me wrong I also get what your saying. I guess if it can all be included without spending extra over and above the original estimate then it is win win all round. But to be honest I wouldn't be very optimistic at this prospect. If it sounds too good to be true it usually is!!!

Yes you're partially right. Somebody who has already cycled from Tralee to Camp is likely someone who is quite confident and who will not divert onto a roadside cycle path if that is only going to cause more delay and inconvenience. There has to be a good selling point.

With the French and Germans they will have a very clear idea of what a proper greenway looks like - try to sell them some kind half-baked Irish caricature and it will be all over the internet within days of opening.

Much of the "trade" in Mayo comes from people staying in revitalised hotels and b&bs sothey can hire bikes in local bike hire shops and cycle the greenway. There is even a business picking them up at either end in minibuses and getting them back to their hotels.

On a day like today give them a warm fire at the end and a cup of tea and a hot buttered scone and they'll feel they had a great day out.

what_traffic

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes probably. In Mayo your posh cycle way cost 4 million and is making 7 million a year back for the local community.

+jobs as well
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0723/1224320622728.html
"
In its first year of operation – since mid-2011 – a new cycling culture has evolved in all of the towns and villages along the track. About 145,000 people have used the route, contributing more than €7 million to the local economy and supporting more than 90 jobs in the process.
"

traleespud

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/councillor-says-west-kerry-road-decision-could-result-in-funding-loss/

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/councillor-says-west-kerry-road-decision-could-result-in-funding-loss/

Sounds like someone in either the council or the NRA is pulling a classic local authority "negotiating" tactic - "do what we say or we'll take the money away".

traleespud

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sounds like someone in either the council or the NRA is pulling a classic local authority "negotiating" tactic - "do what we say or we'll take the money away".

I suppose it doesn't really matter now at this stage does it?? Now that an bord pleanala have made a decision even if the locals and cyclists agreed to original design it can't be reversed???

I wonder is it a possibilty that funding could be diverted else where now there's a delay in project?? Has anyone heard of this happening before???

galwaycyclist

traleespud wrote: »

I wonder is it a possibilty that funding could be diverted else where now there's a delay in project?? Has anyone heard of this happening before???

Yes, in my experience local authority officials nearly always threaten loss of funding when they don't get their way - its a standard tactic. In any case you are probably not looking for 65 million any more which in a sense makes your position stronger. Somebody needs to get a meeting with the Minister to seek assurances that the funds will still be in place.

Ideally that person could also gently point out to the Minister that if he, or his officials, had listened to what they were being told by the cyclists in the first place - this would not have happened. There might be a lesson in that somewhere.

kingdumb

On your first point, you do realise that people who drive cars were objecting to this road too right ?
Yes people in dingle who have been campaigning for road improvements on that road for years, so it was not just cyclists !

So we have a project which was intended to improve tourist routes,which as planned would have ruined the landscape, one of the things that tourists come to see.

On your second point, as pointed out already the return on investment on cycle infrastructure is much larger that road/rail etc. and in the case of 'quality' tourist facilities such as the Mayo greenway is staggering.

It is curious that you mention the deficit in the HSE budget, the Danes are building a load of cycle superhighway and their motivation is not to bring the tourist buck but to save on their medical bill !

The Capital Region of Denmark, a political body responsible for public hospitals as well as regional development, has provided $1.6 million for the superhighway project.
“When we look at public hospitals, we look very much at how to reduce cost,” said a regional councilor, Lars Gaardhoj, who had just picked up his three small children in a cargo bike decorated with elephants. “It’s a common saying among doctors that the best patient is the patient you never see. Anything we can do to get less pollution and less traffic is going to mean healthier, maybe happier, people.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/world/europe/in-denmark-pedaling-to-work-on-a-superhighway.html

traleespud wrote: »

But that's a totally different project really altogether to be fair. I like to walk quite a bit in the evenings after work to clear the head and for a bit of exercise. It's similar to an avid walker or walking group saying the foot path is too close to the road and it doesn't offer an attractive recreational amenity so instead we want a nice walkway built away from the road with nice hedging and flora a fauna etc. So we are objecting. It's total lunacy.

Lets call a spade a spade here the road as it was originally designed was to cost €65 million the inclusion of separate Greenway away from the road to accommodate cyclists is obviously going to cost extra especially if there's a lot of knick knack work for it to include rail line and under trafficked country roads etc. Seems like a complete WASTE of money to me when you think the state our country is in at the moment, the HSE just reported deficits of €400 million but yet we want to spend extra money on building a posh cycle way despite the fact that one could have been included in the original road construction. Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy???

traleespud

kingdumb wrote: »

On your first point, you do realise that people who drive cars were objecting to this road too right ?
Yes people in dingle who have been campaigning for road improvements on that road for years, so it was not just cyclists !

So we have a project which was intended to improve tourist routes,which as planned would have ruined the landscape, one of the things that tourists come to see.

On your second point, as pointed out already the return on investment on cycle infrastructure is much larger that road/rail etc. and in the case of 'quality' tourist facilities such as the Mayo greenway is staggering.

It is curious that you mention the deficit in the HSE budget, the Danes are building a load of cycle superhighway and their motivation is not to bring the tourist buck but to save on their medical bill !

The Capital Region of Denmark, a political body responsible for public hospitals as well as regional development, has provided $1.6 million for the superhighway project.
“When we look at public hospitals, we look very much at how to reduce cost,” said a regional councilor, Lars Gaardhoj, who had just picked up his three small children in a cargo bike decorated with elephants. “It’s a common saying among doctors that the best patient is the patient you never see. Anything we can do to get less pollution and less traffic is going to mean healthier, maybe happier, people.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/world/europe/in-denmark-pedaling-to-work-on-a-superhighway.html

Yes I'm perfectly aware that drivers also had issues, if you take the time to catch up on previous posts you will find that I was interested to find out about the cyclist groups and what concerns they had. Local and national news reports on the subject were dominated by cycling groups welcoming the decision and I was intrigued as to why for reasons mentioned previously.

I mentioned the HSE deficit as a mere comparison at an attempt to put into context the possibility of needlessly over spending on a dedicated green way.

I would not be familiar with other European countries with similar projects so cannot comment, it may be slightly off topic anyway for this thread.

In my opinion (which I am entitled to) I believe cycling groups have shot themselves in the foot by objecting to the proposal. The N86 as it was originally designed including the cycle way was ready to roll out with funding set aside. It may not have been ideal but beggars can't be choosers really considering the dreaded doom and gloom of the economic crises were in.

Looking for a separate greenway is a totally separate issue and may take months or years to get anywhere near a start date. There's also the issue of double disruption during the construction phase along with similar hurdles faced during road construction including damage to hedge rows, flora and fauna, tree lines, wildlife etc to contend with also. Im sure the councils main priority now will be the N86 redesign excluding the cycle way and as of yet I haven't heard any reports that they are even considering a dedicated Greenway.

I admire the optimism of cycling groups and others lobbying for the dedicated greenway. If it ever gets considered and the design and planning stages get the go ahead I'm sure it will be a fantastic asset to Kerry. Best of luck with it!