McClean refuses to wear poppy

BhoscaCapall

As for the Cliftonville thing - marring a minute's silence for it is where I draw the line. I do not like the poppy stuff, I've gone as far as severing ties with people who loudly go on about wearing one, but I won't ruin a minute's silence. The poppy campaign is nothing more than fundraising for the British army IMO and that's why I have nothing but disdain for it, but a minute's silence is just paying your respects. Even if I don't want to use the minute to pay my respects I will still keep quiet and let others do so.

A match against Linfield is probably a different kettle of fish, and it was probably done to noise up their fans as much as anything. Honestly I believe for clubs like Linfield and Rangers Remembrance Sunday isn't merely about remembering the war dead but another excuse to laud their 'Empire' and rub it in people's faces. The way they carry on in comparison to any English club says it all. Of course you could say the same about how some republicans approach Easter Sunday.

I think the Celtic game yesterday was a perfect example of how I think it should be approached. No poppy on the kit but a minute's silence observed impeccably, then belting out Aidan McAnespie.

Zebra3

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

The poppy campaign is nothing more than fundraising for the British army IMO

But it has turned into something more than that.

It has become an attempt to legitimise Britain's role in the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and to deflect the killers involved from any criticism.

Fr Tod Umptious

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

As for the Cliftonville thing - marring a minute's silence for it is where I draw the line. I do not like the poppy stuff, I've gone as far as severing ties with people who loudly go on about wearing one, but I won't ruin a minute's silence. The poppy campaign is nothing more than fundraising for the British army IMO and that's why I have nothing but disdain for it, but a minute's silence is just paying your respects. Even if I don't want to use the minute to pay my respects I will still keep quiet and let others do so.

A match against Linfield is probably a different kettle of fish, and it was probably done to noise up their fans as much as anything. Honestly I believe for clubs like Linfield and Rangers Remembrance Sunday isn't merely about remembering the war dead but another excuse to laud their 'Empire' and rub it in people's faces. The way they carry on in comparison to any English club says it all. Of course you could say the same about how some republicans approach Easter Sunday.

I think the Celtic game yesterday was a perfect example of how I think it should be approached. No poppy on the kit but a minute's silence observed impeccably, then belting out Aidan McAnespie.

It is not fund-raising for veterans of the British Army, rather than the Army itself ?

I have no problem if people support a charity like that, and I have no people if the likes of McClean or others do not wish to.

BhoscaCapall

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It is not fund-raising for veterans of the British Army, rather than the Army itself ?

I don't think these people are absolved of their crimes just because they've finished their tour or been discharged.

Then there is the less tangible aim of the campaign, alluded to in the post after mine. The propaganda angle. Nobody gave much of a toss about this poppy stuff 5 or 6 years ago, it's only after the British media and government began a concerted effort to drum up support for their atrocities at a time when morale and support was at its lowest ever that it's reared its head. The timing of the Royal Wedding was no coincidence either.

Fr Tod Umptious

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I don't think these people are absolved of their crimes just because they've finished their tour or been discharged.

Then there is the less tangible aim of the campaign, alluded to in the post after mine. The propaganda angle. Nobody gave much of a toss about this poppy stuff 5 or 6 years ago, it's only after the British media and government began a concerted effort to drum up support for their atrocities at a time when morale and support was at its lowest ever that it's reared its head. The timing of the Royal Wedding was no coincidence either.

I do not agree with your accretion that the British Army are responsible for atrocities

i would much prefer to see a western force like the British army blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis that the latter attacking us in the west.

Call me weird but i am quiet happy with the western society I live in, and I thank the British Army for helping protect that.

BhoscaCapall

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

i would much prefer to see a western force like the British army blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis that the latter attacking us in the west

And there goes what little chance there was of anybody taking you seriously.

Coillte_Bhoy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I do not agree with your accretion that the British Army are responsible for atrocities

i would much prefer to see a western force like the British army blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis that the latter attacking us in the west.

Call me weird but i am quiet happy with the western society I live in, and I thank the British Army for helping protect that.

Wow, you're showing your true colours. So the british army arent responsible for atrocities yet you support them blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis. Sorry but when did afghans or irqis attacke the west.

Sorry i realise im going off topic but a disgraceful post like that cant go unchallenged

Coillte_Bhoy

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I think the Celtic game yesterday was a perfect example of how I think it should be approached. No poppy on the kit but a minute's silence observed impeccably, then belting out Aidan McAnespie.

Exactly and i know of celtic fans who not agreeing with the minute's silence simply stayed out on the concourse rather than disrupt it. There must have been a few 'journalists' in Scotland who were rightly pissed off though.

Fr Tod Umptious

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Wow, you're showing your true colours. So the british army arent responsible for atrocities yet you support them blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis. Sorry but when did afghans or irqis attacke the west.

Sorry i realise im going off topic but a disgraceful post like that cant go unchallenged

I know it's off topic and I know we will have to get into the minutia of who is who in all this and no doubt there will be a sparkling of Whataboutery etc but here goes

I would much prefer to see regimes favourable to the west in places like Afghanistan and Iraq, rather than ones that are hostile to the west.

Now if that involves the British Army or any other western force killing Afghans and Iraqi's in a effort to achieve this then I am fine with that.

No I in no way condemn the killing of innocent civilians, but at the same time I am quiet happy to see combatants killed.

If you wish to call the killing of combatants as atrocities then that's fine, but I certainly do not.

Fr Tod Umptious

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I do not agree with your accretion that the British Army are responsible for atrocities

i would much prefer to see a western force like the British army blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis that the latter attacking us in the west.

Call me weird but i am quiet happy with the western society I live in, and I thank the British Army for helping protect that.

Yeah, 250,000 civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Thanks indeed to the British army for their part in that. Heroes.

BhoscaCapall

Clearly nobody here appreciates just how close Ireland was to being taken over by Al-Queda. I hear they were planning on storing nuclear warheads in the Roscommon bogs :rolleyes:

Zebra3

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I would much prefer to see regimes favourable to the west in places like Afghanistan and Iraq, rather than ones that are hostile to the west.

I'd love your opinion on Saudi Arabia which manages to fit in to both your categories.

Coillte_Bhoy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I know it's off topic and I know we will have to get into the minutia of who is who in all this and no doubt there will be a sparkling of Whataboutery etc but here goes

I would much prefer to see regimes favourable to the west in places like Afghanistan and Iraq, rather than ones that are hostile to the west.

Now if that involves the British Army or any other western force killing Afghans and Iraqi's in a effort to achieve this then I am fine with that.

No I in no way condemn the killing of innocent civilians, but at the same time I am quiet happy to see combatants killed.

If you wish to call the killing of combatants as atrocities then that's fine, but I certainly do not.

Dont dare put words in my mouth. You never mentioned combatants in your earlier post. And wtf has Iraq or Afganistan got to do with this issue anyway? I thougt the whole poppy thing was purely about remembering dead service men and not about the present wars? Tut tu , silly me:rolleyes:

mikeym

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I am starting to think that James McClean suffers some kind of mental retardation. Just wear the damn thing and keep your mouth shut.

Obviously your not the best at history. Heres some info courtesy of wikipedia.

Bloody Sunday —sometimes called the Bogside Massacre—was an incident on 30 January 1972 in the Bogside area of Derry, Northern Ireland, in which 26 unarmed civil-rights protesters and bystanders were shot by soldiers of the British Army. Thirteen males, seven of whom were teenagers, died immediately or soon after, while the death of another man four-and-a-half months later was attributed to the injuries he received on that day. Two protesters were also injured when they were run down by army vehicles. Five of those wounded were shot in the back. The incident occurred during a Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association march; the soldiers involved were members of the First Battalion of the Parachute Regiment.

polarbearhead

Did Martin O'Neill wear one?

BhoscaCapall

He didn't during the match, but put one on for the press conference after. MON is pretty much diplomacy personified though.

I might be mistaken but he has in the past lectured Nationalists telling them to give their backing to the PSNI, so although I absolutely adore the man as a football manager I have little respect for his political opinion.

doc_17

Choice. Isn't that the supposed greatness of The West?

I remember plenty of times being stopped by the British Army going through the North.

They stopped my dad one time and asked where he was going. "Derry" was the reply. "Excuse me? Where?" Derry again was the response. "I'm sorry I don't know where that is. One final time, where are you going?"

Dad said "Coleraine"

Not a hope he was calling it the other name!

But bad things happened in McLean's hometown and he has every right to make the choice he did. As does O'Neil

Coillte_Bhoy

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

He didn't during the match, but put one on for the press conference after. MON is pretty much diplomacy personified though.

I might be mistaken but he has in the past lectured Nationalists telling them to give their backing to the PSNI, so although I absolutely adore the man as a football manager I have little respect for his political opinion.

Link?

NIMAN

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It is not fund-raising for veterans of the British Army, rather than the Army itself ?

I have no problem if people support a charity like that, and I have no people if the likes of McClean or others do not wish to.

But they are not a charity per se.

They are veterans of the British Army, and as such the Government should be looking after their veterans, not relying on the public to donate money to them.

Lets be honest here, as much as the Government ministers and politicians love a good old "our heroes" tagline, once these guys come back from the front, either dead or alive with severe injuries, the Govs couldn't care less about them, or they wouldn't be treated so badly by the State. Its just become so PC correct these days in the UK to support "our heroes".

bobbysands81

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I do not agree with your accretion that the British Army are responsible for atrocities

i would much prefer to see a western force like the British army blowing the s**t out of Afgans or Iragis that the latter attacking us in the west.

Call me weird but i am quiet happy with the western society I live in, and I thank the British Army for helping protect that.

Wow, just wow...

The_Kew_Tour

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Wow, just wow...

Not often I agree with you Bobby;), but I am speechless too.

Fr Tod Umptious

NIMAN wrote: »

But they are not a charity per se.

They are veterans of the British Army, and as such the Government should be looking after their veterans, not relying on the public to donate money to them.

Lets be honest here, as much as the Government ministers and politicians love a good old "our heroes" tagline, once these guys come back from the front, either dead or alive with severe injuries, the Govs couldn't care less about them, or they wouldn't be treated so badly by the State. Its just become so PC correct these days in the UK to support "our heroes".

Now this is gone way off topic but I will reply anyway, mods feel free to give out to me for it.

Yes of course there are questions about the funding and care of veterans but from what I understand the wearing of poppies is in support of the Royal British legion, i,e I buy a poppy for £x and wear it and the money goes to the Royal British Legion.

Therefore it is a charity event as much as anything.

And as someone has said the EPL donate to the Royal British Legion and in return all shirts have a poppy on them this weekend.

I think McClean was right not to wear one, because like everything else in NI a poppy has a political symbol, whereas in the rest of the UK it's just a simple poppy.

Coillte_Bhoy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Now this is gone way off topic but I will reply anyway, mods feel free to give out to me for it.

Yes of course there are questions about the funding and care of veterans but from what I understand the wearing of poppies is in support of the Royal British legion, i,e I buy a poppy for £x and wear it and the money goes to the Royal British Legion.

Therefore it is a charity event as much as anything.

And as someone has said the EPL donate to the Royal British Legion and in return all shirts have a poppy on them this weekend.

I think McClean was right not to wear one, because like everything else in NI a poppy has a political symbol, whereas in the rest of the UK it's just a simple poppy.

it was you that brought it off topic bringing the slaughter of Afghans and Iraqis into it

Eirebear

Mental thread is mental.

McClean has every right not to wear a Poppy, and as far as i can tell he has done simply that.
Got on with his job, kept his mouth shut and simply not worn it.

For me, the flak he has taken from the Daily Mail and the tabloid press does nothing but cheapen the ideal of Armistace/Rememberance Day and make a mockery of the idea of "Freedom of Choice".
If McClean had come out and slammed his team mates or others for wearing the poppy, then he would be in the wrong - but given that he hasn't then for me, it is a disgrace the way he is being treated.

Coillte_Bhoy

Eirebear wrote: »

Mental thread is mental.

McClean has every right not to wear a Poppy, and as far as i can tell he has done simply that.
Got on with his job, kept his mouth shut and simply not worn it.

For me, the flak he has taken from the Daily Mail and the tabloid press does nothing but cheapen the ideal of Armistace/Rememberance Day and make a mockery of the idea of "Freedom of Choice".
If McClean had come out and slammed his team mates or others for wearing the poppy, then he would be in the wrong - but given that he hasn't then for me, it is a disgrace the way he is being treated.

sums my feelings up perfectly, well said

Jelle1880

It's rags like the Daily Mail who seem to do everything they can to cheapen the symbol of the poppy, by constantly going on a witch-hunt after people who don't wear one.

If McClean doesn't want to wear one, for whatever reason then that's his choice.

NIMAN

Agreed.

Its almost turned into a competition now in the UK.

Who can wear theirs earliest, for the longest period, which one has the most red diamonds in it etc etc.

It is now more a fashion statement for many, or an excuse to get ripped into those who decide not to wear one. You are no longer allowed to exert your freedom of choice.

You can have your freedom as long as you do what you are told.

BhoscaCapall

If you required any more proof

By working with us you can:

Increase sales and competitive avantage
Maximise brand affinity and build brand equity

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/corporate-partnerships

Jelle1880

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

If you required any more proof


http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/corporate-partnerships

Yeah, they're in it for the money :rolleyes:

grenache

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

If you required any more proof


http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/support-us/corporate-partnerships

I clicked on "Poppy Appeal" option and their info includes this line:

"Civilians wanted to remember the people who had given their lives for peace and freedom.

Gave me a good laugh if nothing else. Because Britain was so eager to give Ireland its freedom at the time. :rolleyes:

WWI was nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with selfish national interests. Britain did not want Germany threatening her Empire. The French wanted revenge for their defeat to Prussia in the 1860s and subsequent loss of Alsace - Lorraine. The Austro-Hungarians were desperate to maintain their fragile Empire. The Germans fancied expansion of their territory both east and west and the Italians fancied taking back some land previously lost to Austria - Hungary. The Turks were also kean for their Ottoman Empire to dominate that part of south eastern Europe and into Russia.

This fallacy that Britain and France were fighting to "liberate little Belgium" has to cease!!!

Eirebear

Eirebear wrote: »

Mental thread is mental.

McClean has every right not to wear a Poppy, and as far as i can tell he has done simply that.
Got on with his job, kept his mouth shut and simply not worn it.

For me, the flak he has taken from the Daily Mail and the tabloid press does nothing but cheapen the ideal of Armistace/Rememberance Day and make a mockery of the idea of "Freedom of Choice".
If McClean had come out and slammed his team mates or others for wearing the poppy, then he would be in the wrong - but given that he hasn't then for me, it is a disgrace the way he is being treated.

Brilliant post

Jelle1880

grenache wrote: »

I clicked on "Poppy Appeal" option and their info includes this line:

"Civilians wanted to remember the people who had given their lives for peace and freedom.

Gave me a good laugh if nothing else. Because Britain was so eager to give Ireland its freedom at the time. :rolleyes:

WWI was nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with selfish national interests. Britain did not want Germany threatening her Empire. The French wanted revenge for their defeat to Prussia in the 1860s and subsequent loss of Alsace - Lorraine. The Austro-Hungarians were desperate to maintain their fragile Empire. The Germans fancied expansion of their territory both east and west and the Italians fancied taking back some land previously lost to Austria - Hungary. The Turks were also kean for their Ottoman Empire to dominate that part of south eastern Europe and into Russia.

This fallacy that Britain and France were fighting to "liberate little Belgium" has to cease!!!

Maybe it has escaped your attention, but the Poppy Appeal is not only there to remember those fallen in WWI.

Jelle1880

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Maybe it has escaped your attention, but the Poppy Appeal is not only there to remember those fallen in WWI.

Can you understand why someone from NI (particularly a Catholic)wouldn't wear one?

osarusan

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

it was you that brought it off topic bringing the slaughter of Afghans and Iraqis into it

He was replying to earlier posts by Bhoscacapall and Zebra3 (who, ironically, thanked your post) which mentioned efforts 5-6 years ago to drum up support and morale in light of the 'atrocities', and the 'illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan'.

Fr Tod Umptious

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Dont dare put words in my mouth. You never mentioned combatants in your earlier post. And wtf has Iraq or Afganistan got to do with this issue anyway? I thougt the whole poppy thing was purely about remembering dead service men and not about the present wars? Tut tu , silly me:rolleyes:

Apologies, I was not singling you out

If you wish to call the killing of combatants as atrocities then that's fine, but I certainly do not.

Should have been

If ones wishes to call the killing of combatants as atrocities then that's fine, but I certainly do not.

Jelle1880

rarnes1 wrote: »

Can you understand why someone from NI (particularly a Catholic)wouldn't wear one?

Because of the political message it carries in Northern Ireland where it is seen by some as a badge of loyalty to the British forces, which understandably is a touchy subject up there.

However, for the majority of people wearing it it is simply a token to remember those fallen in war, for various reasons (As mentioned WWI was the original meaning, but lately it has expanded to most if not all conflicts).

grenache

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Maybe it has escaped your attention, but the Poppy Appeal is not only there to remember those fallen in WWI.

No it hasn't. But that's how the appeal started, in 1921.

As you can see, I quoted from their own website, to highlight a common misconception.

GLaDOS

He received death threats due to his refusal it seems

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22456

POLICE IN BRITAIN are investigating death threats by a former British Army soldier to Sunderland and Ireland soccer star James McClean over the Derry-born footballer's refusal to wear a club shirt specially embroidered with the Royal British Legion poppy in Remembrance Sunday weekend.

Manchester doorman Cody Lachey sent a string of threats to McClean via An Phoblacht and other newspapers and Twitter, including photographs of live bullets.

Responding to our story about the threats, Lachey tweeted directly to An Phoblacht:

@codylachey50: @An_Phoblacht: Poppy bullies’ death threats against James McClean! Too right he deserves to be shot dead + body dragged past the cenotaph!!

Lachey – who describes himself on his Twitter account as "ex-army lad . . . best known as the face of rioters on BBC Newsnight" – told The Irish Sun:

"I think he's a f ---ing disgrace. I know I'll end up in trouble and maybe in prison over this but I'm willing to go to court, that's how strongly I feel."

The Sun says it has sent a file to New Scotland Yard and police told reporters the ex-soldier's threats are being examined.

Pudsy33

ScienceNerd wrote: »

He received death threats due to his refusal it seems
Loo
http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/22456

You really have to question the intelligence of someone like that. Madness

Iang87

cant believe this is still going on. He didn't wear the poppy because he didn't want to, end of.

I also didn't wear a poppy. If I was in England last sunday and was seen without a poppy would I have been shot

LuckyLloyd

British society has been ****ed for a long time, this is just a symptom of it folks.

Zebra3

Pudsy33 wrote: »

You really have to question the intelligence of someone like that. Madness

Brainwashed trained killer.

Not really that surprising.

gustafo

Death treats he is getting now.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/english/2012/1118/346166-oneill-confirms-mcclean-target-of-death-threats/

Eirebear

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

British society has been ****ed for a long time, this is just a symptom of it folks.

I don't think it's plainly a sympom of "british society" tbh - look around you in Ireland, The States, Australia and most westernised countries and you'll see similarities.

Kerrydude1981

SSN reporting that the police are investigating into allegations of death threats towards James McClean.

The_Kew_Tour

He has now closed his Twitter account.

Thankfully.

That_Guy

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

He has now closed his Twitter account.

Thankfully.

He's an utter clown on Twitter. Was always asking for abuse the way he went on.

kfallon

That_Guy wrote: »

He's an utter clown on Twitter. Was always asking for abuse the way he went on.

Did you follow him?

RebelRed90

players shouldnt be left use twitter by there clubs. McClean deletes his twitter page again because of criticism by a DUP MP, bit harsh I think all he said was, ‘On flight for the maras game. Only one thing for it —headphones in, Wolfe Tones on! What’s everyone’s fave song? Broad Black Brimmer edges mine".

noodler

RebelRed90 wrote: »

players shouldnt be left use twitter by there clubs. McClean deletes his twitter page again because of criticism by a DUP MP, bit harsh I think all he said was, ‘On flight for the maras game. Only one thing for it —headphones in, Wolfe Tones on! What’s everyone’s fave song? Broad Black Brimmer edges mine".

Is that really all he said?

I've called him an idiot in the past for some of the tweets but that is really innocuous.