Childrens Referendum - A Reminder To Vote

Finnbar01

Sully wrote: »

That's my point. People cant seem to tell the difference between government legislating and those who implement the legislation through social workers and the courts. Enda & Co have no say over any individual case brought to the state.

That's exactly my worry. It will be unaccountable faceless bureucrats and social workers who will implement this. When it goes wrong, expect wild goose chases.

Cabaal

7upfree wrote: »

In nine cases out of ten, those manning them don't need the money - with some people taking a day's leave off work to man the booth.

.

unless you have some facts and figures to backup such a bull**** claim then with all due respect you are talking out your arse

Wanderer2010

Cabaal wrote: »

unless you have some facts and figures to backup such a bull**** claim then with all due respect you are talking out your arse

I have facts. Almost all of the people manning the stations in 3 of the schools are former/current teachers and the younger ones are daughters/sons of teachers and principals. I spoke to 2 people today who were told in no uncertain terms that you can apply but, like a lot of public servie jobs, they were gone already to people who knew the right people in schools and offices. Why is it so hard to believe that cronyism and nepotism is rife when it comes to handy numbers like that. Dont be so naive, you do live in Ireland too right?

Cabaal

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I have facts. Almost all of the people manning the stations in 3 of the schools are former/current teachers and the younger ones are daughters/sons of teachers and principals. I spoke to 2 people today who were told in no uncertain terms that you can apply but, like a lot of public servie jobs, they were gone already to people who knew the right people in schools and offices. Why is it so hard to believe that cronyism and nepotism is rife when it comes to handy numbers like that. Dont be so naive, you do live in Ireland too right?

How exactly does that equal 9 out of 10?

Just because you've spoken to a few people does not mean the same apply to the entire island of Ireland, as such your post does not equal proper stats and doesn't answer my query

Maybe for once people like yourself can take a step back and stop being so paranoid,

Wanderer2010

I havent interviewed everyone but the system for applying is the same, you join a list and they call you back if interested but i highly doubt that the 3 schools which were practically all manned by former and current teachers are the minority and the rest of the stations were manned by ordinary people who applied for the job and got it easy as that, its all about who you know, sure its the same with the vote counters and heres where i have even more back up- I know of a lot of people who used to work in and for schools and they have a job for life every election. Again, same with the invigilators who supervise state exams.

Im not being paranoid mate, Im just spelling out how it is. In Ireland, its who you know....

AK333

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I havent interviewed everyone but the system for applying is the same, you join a list and they call you back if interested but i highly doubt that the 3 schools which were practically all manned by former and current teachers are the minority and the rest of the stations were manned by ordinary people who applied for the job and got it easy as that, its all about who you know, sure its the same with the vote counters and heres where i have even more back up- I know of a lot of people who used to work in and for schools and they have a job for life every election. Again, same with the invigilators who supervise state exams.

Im not being paranoid mate, Im just spelling out how it is. In Ireland, its who you know....

I'm new to Boards but get annoyed at sour grapes and just had to add something to this thread.

I worked at the referendum yesterday and No
I'm not a teacher
work in the public service

Yes
I am an ordinary person
I'm unemployed (just returned from Australia)
did write to the local returning officer and got a call

Sometimes you can be lucky - I obviously was

its not all cronyism - also, I don't agree that 'if you don't understand, you vote no' attitude.

If you don't understand the issues, you don't vote. IMO you vote your preference WHEN you understand what you are voting for, ie you agree and vote yes, or disagree and vote no. If you haven't a clue, you don't vote. my opinion only

Best of luck to anyone who did vote, and did work at the Referendum - it actually felt really good to be part of changing irish society

Hoffmans

AK333 wrote: »

Best of luck to anyone who did vote, and did work at the Referendum - it actually felt really good to be part of changing irish society

Good for you ,part of meddling in the constuition on the back of a taxpayer sponsored government mis-information campaign...
looking forward to the supreme courts findings being released on the sham.

but not whats ahead of us...
http://www.relocationcampaign.co.uk/4.html

rasper

Can someone please answer that how come since the foundation of state, that the government through different angles had no bother in snatching kids and holding them in paedophile ridd3n industrial schools , turned a blind eye to every abuse committed in our vocational schools.
Yet they ask for more power when they can't/won t account for dead children who were in the care of the hse, how about it gets it's socialworkers to work past 5pm before it earns the right to demand more power
I wouldn't trust our authorities to mind a dog never mind a child

Cabaal

rasper wrote: »

Can someone please answer that how come since the foundation of state, that the government through different angles had no bother in snatching kids and holding them in paedophile ridd3n industrial schools , turned a blind eye to every abuse committed in our vocational schools.

I think you'll find the problems in the past cannot simply be applied to the government in power at the time, it was a failing of our society as a whole.

From the church, government and the average joe on the street who in 9 out of 10 cases woudn't believe that a priest/nun/teacher/uncle/parent etc would do anything like what the kid said.

For decades Irish people looked in aw at the likes of priests and saw them as people that could do no wrong, some still do see them like this and infact I've even spoken to people that still believe that the "victims" made up the abuse claims.

Such a view to us now may seem insane but imagine such a mentality on almost all levels of society up and down the country, add to this religious orders who when they did find out about stuff they moved the cause of the abuse around in an effort to hide them.

Whilst people may prefer to try and blame the government on this one it was our society that failed overall, there are numerous reasons for this including an affective church state.

I wouldn't trust our authorities to mind a dog never mind a child

So who do you trust?, the parents that either allow their kids to be abused or abuse or neglect their kids themselves?
The foster parents who while they have kids in their care they are not caring for them properly?
The single mother or father who is off their heads on drugs/drink on almost a daily basis?

If we do nothing and just turn a blind eye then once again we fail as a society,

If people didn't want the referendum to pass they should have got out and voted, people fight and die worldwide just for the right to vote in the country they live in and as citizens of Ireland one of our duty's is to educate ourselves on matters that need to be voted for and then get out and vote.

If you voted no (as long as this was a educated vote) then thats fine, if you voted yes (again as long as it was educated) then this is also fine. But imho people that vote no or yes blindly without educating themselves fail as citizens of Ireland.

People that don't get out and vote either way should be ashamed of themselves, from my experience these types of people also winge the most about things like the government yet many of them won't even vote in elections.
:rolleyes:

and finally people who voted no as "revenge" on the government for their decisions in general up until now were the biggest fools of all,

The way i see it is sure only approx 30% got out and voted but yes still passed, if the no side wanted more people out voting no nothing stopped them from pushing a campaign but yes I've not seen one No poster or leaflet. You can bet that had 30% got out and voted and no had passed then the no side would not be looking for the decision to be scrapped like they want with the yes vote.

Additionally I find it amusing that people are bitching and moaning saying that the government (FG/Labour) are pushing this as such they don't agree with it....utter nonsense.

In case anyone missed it SF even wanted a yes on this (they also welcomed the yes vote outcome), plus the numerous organizations that supported this including the likes of amnesty international. To claim it was just the government pushing for a yes vote is frankly ignorant and again shows just how paranoid people can be about the government.

Potential-Monke

JPA wrote: »

But Potential-Monke even if you don't have children or ever plan to , the referendum was still about children being taken care of so you sound very heartless.

But it doesn't effect me. I don't like kids. They annoy me. So, in referendum to do with children, i already have a biased view. This referendum should have been (and mostly was) decided by people whom this effects. My vote, either way, would be a joke as i wouldn't have read up on it, i wouldn't have made an educated decision. I left this one to the people who it really matters to.

I do make educated decisions on every referendum that effects me. Just this one had nothing to do with me, nor anything which i care about. Call me heartless, but who am i to judge someone else (in most cases, some cases are straight forward) in their parenting abilities, when i know i'd be shocking at it myself.

To give an extreme example, if there was a referendum on gaming, and making all 18 rated games illegal in Ireland, i wouldn't want anyone who doesn't care about the gaming scene making a vote. I know this would never happen, but it's an attempt at trying to get my point across.

Cabaal

Potential-Monke, any chance you are a teenager or atleast in your early 20's as you certainly sound very much like a self obsessed teenager.

(Note: thankfully not ALL teenagers are self obsessions especially as they get older but alot are and those that are self obsession only care about what affects them.. the same as Potential-Monke).

imho, your view is very short sighted and who's to say you won't have kids in 5, 10, 15 years from now. Then it will affect you. Alot can change in your life. I know plenty of people that said they'd never had kids (both women and men) and later in life their mindset changed.

Sully

Potential-Monke wrote: »

But it doesn't effect me. I don't like kids. They annoy me. So, in referendum to do with children, i already have a biased view. This referendum should have been (and mostly was) decided by people whom this effects. My vote, either way, would be a joke as i wouldn't have read up on it, i wouldn't have made an educated decision. I left this one to the people who it really matters to.

I do make educated decisions on every referendum that effects me. Just this one had nothing to do with me, nor anything which i care about. Call me heartless, but who am i to judge someone else (in most cases, some cases are straight forward) in their parenting abilities, when i know i'd be shocking at it myself.

To give an extreme example, if there was a referendum on gaming, and making all 18 rated games illegal in Ireland, i wouldn't want anyone who doesn't care about the gaming scene making a vote. I know this would never happen, but it's an attempt at trying to get my point across.

Do you not care for your nephews and nieces then? Or about how other children could be treated, regardless of your connection to them or not? If you saw a child being beaten by her parents, abused and so on - would you shrug and say "Nothing to do with me, I don't like kids. There annoying." ?

Finnbar01

From the church, government and the average joe on the street who in 9 out of 10 cases woudn't believe that a priest/nun/teacher/uncle/parent etc would do anything like what the kid said.

That’s not correct, thousands of complaints were made to the authorities and they still refused to act.

For decades Irish people looked in aw at the likes of priests and saw them as people that could do no wrong, some still do see them like this and infact I've even spoken to people that still believe that the "victims" made up the abuse claims.

Priests come in a close second to politicians(and always have done). I take it you’ve heard of parish pump politics?

Such a view to us now may seem insane but imagine such a mentality on almost all levels of society up and down the country, add to this religious orders who when they did find out about stuff they moved the cause of the abuse around in an effort to hide them.

And the modern view now that the state and its apparatus can look after you from cradle to grave, coupled with a multitude of rules, regulations and referenda, all to achieve some socialist utopia is not insane to you?

Whilst people may prefer to try and blame the government on this one it was our society that failed overall, there are numerous reasons for this including an affective church state.

Blaming society is catch all phrase and means no one is on the hook for anything.
Quote:

So who do you trust?, the parents that either allow their kids to be abused or abuse or neglect their kids themselves?......

We have enough rules and regulations in place to deal with child abuse. Why don’t we enact them instead of giving the state more control and power?

In case anyone missed it SF even wanted a yes on this (they also welcomed the yes vote outcome), plus the numerous organizations that supported this including the likes of amnesty international.

I never voted for Amnesty International or any of the other vested interest state spongers either.

To claim it was just the government pushing for a yes vote is frankly ignorant and again shows just how paranoid people can be about the government.

Does that include the supreme court?

7upfree

AK333 wrote: »

I'm new to Boards but get annoyed at sour grapes and just had to add something to this thread.

I worked at the referendum yesterday and No
I'm not a teacher
work in the public service

Yes
I am an ordinary person
I'm unemployed (just returned from Australia)
did write to the local returning officer and got a call

Sometimes you can be lucky - I obviously was

its not all cronyism - also, I don't agree that 'if you don't understand, you vote no' attitude.

If you don't understand the issues, you don't vote. IMO you vote your preference WHEN you understand what you are voting for, ie you agree and vote yes, or disagree and vote no. If you haven't a clue, you don't vote. my opinion only

Best of luck to anyone who did vote, and did work at the Referendum - it actually felt really good to be part of changing irish society

Can I ask how many more unemployed people were working in the polling station you were in? Also, people died for the vote. We were oppressed for over 800 years. So yes - exercise your vote always. And if you are unsure then vote no.

7upfree

Cabaal wrote: »

I think you'll find the problems in the past cannot simply be applied to the government in power at the time, it was a failing of our society as a whole.

In fairness that's an awful copout. Society cannot be continuously blamed. There are a myriad of rules and laws for everything in this country. They're just not enforced. And that's up to the authorities.

Potential-Monke

Cabaal wrote: »

Potential-Monke, any chance you are a teenager or atleast in your early 20's as you certainly sound very much like a self obsessed teenager.

imho, your view is very short sighted and who's to say you won't have kids in 5, 10, 15 years from now. Then it will affect you. Alot can change in your life. I know plenty of people that said they'd never had kids (both women and men) and later in life their mindset changed.

30 in May. I've had to make the hardest decision of my life this March, which was to end a near 7 years relationship due to wanting different things (mainly, she wanted children, i don't). I thought long and hard about it, and it was not something i made lightly. I'm not self-obsessed, but i know clearly what i have an interest in and what i don't. Children just happen to be something i care little about. I never had an inclination for children, and the longer i spend around them the more i grow to hate them (i'll give the older ones a bit of leeway, at least they can tell you why they're bloody crying!).

It might have something to do with my job, and the world as i see it, but i personally don't feel right bringing a child into this world. There are too many people out there who feel pressurized into having children to be part of the "normal" society, and there are friends of mine who just can't understand my views, and i think that is wrong. Some people are better off not having children, and in my opinion, i'm one of them. I've enough sh*t in my life without having the extra concern of a child (who should be the main priority in any parents life, but it's plain to see that is not the case).

Sully wrote: »

Do you not care for your nephews and nieces then? Or about how other children could be treated, regardless of your connection to them or not? If you saw a child being beaten by her parents, abused and so on - would you shrug and say "Nothing to do with me, I don't like kids. There annoying." ?

I do care for them, but who am i to be saying how they should live, what rights they have, etc, when i don't have the experience of my own children to go on. In my opinion, people who say what's right and wrong for children and their parents, when they don't have any children themselves, are usually the same people who think they know all right and no wrong. Obviously, if there was an indication of criminal behaviour on part of the parents, or the child was suffering (mentally or physically) because of the conduct of the parents, i would inform the relevant authorities.

But where's the line? Where's the decision that this is beyond the capabilities of the parents. That's the joy with having children, they're all different. You can't treat all children the same, because they are all individuals who act differently. Who am i to say that Mary down the road giving her little Paddy a smack on the backside is wrong? People who say that hitting all children is wrong will say so on this one, but is it? Is a tap on the arse that bad?

I was beat left and right when i was younger, but i deserved every single slap. And i thank my parents for it. Today, you can't even speak in certain tones to a child for fear of the authorities taking your child away. And i'm not putting myself, or someone dependant on me, in that situation.

Call it what you will, i call it having a clear mind as to what would be best for me and any children that i could have. And i wouldn't say anything to anyone in the street about how they treat their children, and i would just walk by (as long as they're not kicking the crap out of the child in front of me: assault is assault). Shur how many people ignore this kind of behaviour on a daily basis? I didn't have the child, it's not my responsibility. The behaviour of bad parents just re-affirms my belief that you should have a licence to have children.

Wanderer2010

^ Good post. I agree with you on the point of pressure of having children in society. Why do you have to have children exactly? Because its the done thing? Because "everyone else has them"? That is exactly the type of crap that makes people bring kids into the world when they dont want them and this leads to neglect and resentment which isnt just unfair on the parent but the child too. I openly admit I dont want kids and Im not interested in having them and I often get shocked responses like "But they are so wonderful"...yeah, for YOU, not for everyone. Shame its still un-PC to admit to not liking kids or wanting them but there you go, best to be honest with yourself.

AK333

I was in a small rural town so my experience would be different to others but I know of at least three other people who worked on the day, two of whom were unemployed and 1 was a third level student. I hadn't worked there before so didn't know the others and didn't chat to them all. Once we are at our desks, we are to remain there, apart from toilet breaks, etc.

and No, if you don't understand, don't vote. Only vote if you know what you are voting for and I agree with a previous poster, people died so that we got the vote and we should use it.