the culture of military obsession

griffdaddy

Manic Moran wrote: »

0.7% of the population is a large percentage? (Hence a lot of 'we are the 1% signs you may see soldiers holding up on Facebook etc).
It's not much higher than the UK's percentage of military-of-population. (0.6%).

It may depend on what airport you were at. Atlanta, for example, is going to have a hugely disproportionate amount of soldiers because it's the main Army basic training facility and also the main point of entry for troops returning from overseas deployments.

You're right, it must have been the airport I was in (Charlotte). I see now from wikipedia that it's a joint civilian and military airport. Didn't know the percentage was so low, always assumed it would be way higher.

DEFTLEFTHAND

MikeMichael wrote: »

But those "warriors" are pro war themselves (they signed up to fight for money) and are the instruments of war. Spitting on them is fair enough when you consider what they got up to.

You have to remember that many of the Vietnam soldiers were young men in their late teens and early twenties who had been drafted into the army. It was America's folly to get involved and some dreadful decisions and atrocities occurred, but these young guys were the one's to take the blame. It had to have been a most traumatic experience for anyone involved and then to be treated like dirt when they came home must have been the final insult. Their country let them down badly.

Manic Moran

Well, the other thing is that you'll see soldiers at airports simply because they're getting from A to B in a very large country. I went to a training course in Fort Knox, it took me three days of hard driving to get there, not a drive I like to make for routine visits. You will not so often see soldiers at such places in Ireland or France because it's quite easy to go from base to base by car. You'll see a fair few Canadian soldiers at Canadian airports for the same reason.

America still has a greater enthusiasm for militarism than most of Europe. This is most likely because they haven't been fought over and flattened less than seventy years ago.

Australia generally avoided being flattened as well, but you couldn't consider them particularly militaristic. That said, they revere their armed forces to an extent which makes the US look kindof apathetic. Their national war memorial is directly lined up with the Prime Minister's door, and it would take an extremely ballsy person to disparage an Australian serviceman on ANZAC Day, which is treated almost as a religious event there. What they do have in common with the US, though, is that both have had a fair few dozen men die in far-flung places of the world doing what their democratically elected governments believe to be in their national interest. And those who didn't die, particularly seventy years ago, left home for the duration. Americans and Aussies both would leave and not see home turf for three or four years at a time. British, German, French etc soldiers could all go home on occasion. The personal sacrifice is considered hugely important, despite the lack of bombs dropped on the country.

MikeMichael

Manic Moran wrote: »

First time I've ever heard a USO termed an 'executive lounge.' But they do provide free soft drinks and hot dogs.

That said, the USOs in Houston and Ontario are very nice. They vary. The one in SFO is pretty small, SJC used to be a portacabin outside the terminal.



Interesting statement. Are you implying that all US interests are on the level of war crimes?



FWIW, HRW apparently disagrees with you.
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/kosovo98/timeline.shtml
"the vast majority of the violations over the past year are attributable to the Serbian police or Yugoslav Army"

And similarly, I don't think there's any major doubt about the necessity of intervention in 1995. How many massacres happened before Deliberate Force, and how many after? The US tried to take a back seat in Libya as well, but the combined European forces seemed to be unable to defeat a second-rate North African power without US help. They started running out of ammunition in the first week.

Face it, the European militaries need help to deal with problems on their front door.

The Iraq war was an illegal war so anybody involved in it is a war criminal. The whole area of the legality of wars is fairly shady but nearly every war the US has been involved in it has been the aggressor and it has used its power to the detriment of smaller nations.

Using smaller, volatile nations as a proxy battleground for the ideological battles with Russia: absolutely vile. Then you have the past couple of decades with hundreds of thousands dead so they can play war games and protect US oil interests in the middle east. I went around with a smile on my face the on September 11th because it was finally a tiny fraction of pain they have inflicted coming home to roost.
irish people recognise and are very sensitive to any imperialism and this is what the USA is involved in. It is about conquering other states and using them for your own benefit. The rights of the inhabitants go out the window when anything can be justified as colateral damage. Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

Local-womanizer

MikeMichael wrote: »

The Iraq war was an illegal war so anybody involved in it is a war criminal. The whole area of the legality of wars is fairly shady but nearly every war the US has been involved in it has been the aggressor and it has used its power to the detriment of smaller nations.

Using smaller, volatile nations as a proxy battleground for the ideological battles with Russia: absolutely vile. Then you have the past couple of decades with hundreds of thousands dead so they can play war games and protect US oil interests in the middle east. I went around with a smile on my face the on September 11th because it was finally a tiny fraction of pain they have inflicted coming home to roost.
irish people recognise and are very sensitive to any imperialism and this is what the USA is involved in. It is about conquering other states and using them for your own benefit. The rights of the inhabitants go out the window when anything can be justified as colateral damage. Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

One classy individual.

I suppose you find it hilarious when the Taliban strap explosives to mentally retarded children and send them in to crowded market places?

Or when they throw acid in girls faces for going to school, or behead teachers for wanting to teach?

Manic Moran

MikeMichael wrote: »

The Iraq war was an illegal war so anybody involved in it is a war criminal.

You have an interesting take on the criminal justice system which, fortunately, is not adhered to by any courts.

Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

So you're one of those who will happily let others take the risks for you as long as you can watch the result safely over the Internet?

MikeMichael

I would take the risks if they turned up in my area. I'd probably be the one making the explosives if I had a gang of braindead deep south 20 year olds going around terrorising my town.

Topper Harley

MikeMichael wrote: »

I went around with a smile on my face the on September 11th because it was finally a tiny fraction of pain they have inflicted coming home to roost.

Any soldier that willinngly gets involved in an imperial conquest deserves a horrible death. I do enjoy seeing IED videos on youtube and knowing that some bully got a black eye.

Well thanks for clearing that up for us. I think you've shown us all what type of person you are and we can leave it at that, happy in the knowledge that we don't give a fuck what you think about anything.

By the way, that's one very strange high horse you're on there. :rolleyes:

MikeMichael

Local-womanizer wrote: »

One classy individual.

I suppose you find it hilarious when the Taliban strap explosives to mentally retarded children and send them in to crowded market places?

Or when they throw acid in girls faces for going to school, or behead teachers for wanting to teach?

No, I despise the taliban.

Zebra3

Local-womanizer wrote: »

One classy individual.

I suppose you find it hilarious when the Taliban strap explosives to mentally retarded children and send them in to crowded market places?

Or when they throw acid in girls faces for going to school, or behead teachers for wanting to teach?

Do you find it hilarious when the Americans or British drop bombs on civilians?

Or dump depleted uranium on them thereby causing deformities to unborn kids?

Local-womanizer

MikeMichael wrote: »

No, I despise the taliban.

Let you laugh at their exploits online when it comes to killing Isaf soldiers?

What if it was an Irish soldier killed, would you think the same thing?

MikeMichael

Topper Harley wrote: »

Well thanks for clearing that up for us. I think you've shown us all what type of person you are and we can leave it at that, happy in the knowledge that we don't give a fuck what you think about anything.

By the way, that's one very strange high horse you're on there. :rolleyes:

Why are you saying "we". You don't speak for everybody you nut. That is the hallmark of somebody unsure in themselve and wants to imagine them being part of a group.

MikeMichael

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Let you laugh at their exploits online when it comes to killing Isaf soldiers?

What if it was an Irish soldier killed, would you think the same thing?

I like to see a warmonger get his comeuppace. I don't care who it comes from to be honest. If an Irish soldier flew thousands of miles away to some foreign place to get stuck into some locals and start a fight then I'd be delighted to see him be relieved of his legs.

Topper Harley

MikeMichael wrote: »

Why are you saying "we". You don't speak for everybody you nut. That is the hallmark of somebody unsure in themselve and wants to imagine them being part of a group.

Spot on there. Well done again. :rolleyes:

czx

MikeMichael wrote: »

I would take the risks if they turned up in my area. I'd probably be the one making the explosives if I had a gang of braindead deep south 20 year olds going around terrorising my town.

Well you wouldn't have the Taliban's help, apparently.

Manic Moran

MikeMichael wrote: »

I would take the risks if they turned up in my area. I'd probably be the one making the explosives if I had a gang of braindead deep south 20 year olds going around terrorising my town.

Ah, OK. So you don't lack courage, just the personal sacrifice involved in leaving your home, friends and family for a year in order to do what you feel needs doing?

Have you at least partaken in operations by groups such as Concern, MSF, WHO etc in various less-stable areas? (And no, Cork doesn't count)

NTM

Manic Moran

MikeMichael wrote: »

I like to see a warmonger get his comeuppace. I don't care who it comes from to be honest. If an Irish soldier flew thousands of miles away to some foreign place to get stuck into some locals and start a fight then I'd be delighted to see him be relieved of his legs.

Do you have an opinion on this piece by the Dutch Chief of the Armed Forces explaining why he joined the military?

http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_van_uhm_why_i_chose_a_gun.html

Local-womanizer

MikeMichael wrote: »

I like to see a warmonger get his comeuppace. I don't care who it comes from to be honest. If an Irish soldier flew thousands of miles away to some foreign place to get stuck into some locals and start a fight then I'd be delighted to see him be relieved of his legs.

So the 7 Irish soldiers currently deployed in Afghanistan, you wouldn't care if they were seriously injured?

ISAF are trying to rebuild a country, through building infrastructure, which the Taliban systematically destroy as it doesn't fit in with their beliefs. Most civilians in Afghanistan want some sort of normal existence. That includes education, which the Taliban oppose.

MikeMichael

Manic Moran wrote: »

Ah, OK. So you don't lack courage, just the personal sacrifice involved in leaving your home, friends and family for a year in order to do what you feel needs doing?

Have you at least partaken in operations by groups such as Concern, MSF, WHO etc in various less-stable areas? (And no, Cork doesn't count)

NTM

What are you one about? Would I win your respect if I went to Thailand for a month and started kicking the **** out of the locals for not having the same values as me? I could show courage and sacrifice in teh process, honourable traits.

I'd rather get on with my life here at home, travel when I can and try and do my best to learn about other cultures and enjoy our differences. Not go to war with them so I can have cheaper fuel for my car.

MikeMichael

Local-womanizer wrote: »

So the 7 Irish soldiers currently deployed in Afghanistan, you wouldn't care if they were seriously injured?

ISAF are trying to rebuild a country, through building infrastructure, which the Taliban systematically destroy as it doesn't fit in with their beliefs. Most civilians in Afghanistan want some sort of normal existence. That includes education, which the Taliban oppose.

They should just leave and let the locals sort it out themselves. You can't force a country in change from the outside. Not without a permanent and intrusive military prescence. If that is there aim then surely they should be in half the world spreading their democracy and western infrastructure to all the third world countries.

Manic Moran

MikeMichael wrote: »

What are you one about? Would I win your respect if I went to Thailand for a month and started kicking the **** out of the locals for not having the same values as me? I could show courage and sacrifice in teh process, honourable traits.

I'd rather get on with my life here at home, travel when I can and try and do my best to learn about other cultures and enjoy our differences. Not go to war with them so I can have cheaper fuel for my car.

Concern, WHO, and MSF are organisations which kick the **** out of the locals for not having the same values as them?

Local-womanizer

MikeMichael wrote: »

They should just leave and let the locals sort it out themselves. You can't force a country in change from the outside. Not without a permanent and intrusive military prescence. If that is there aim then surely they should be in half the world spreading their democracy and western infrastructure to all the third world countries.

The Taliban would have more than a little influence in what goes on there, as is evident. The locals couldn't exactly march for change there, I mean the Taliban would stone a women to death for looking at another man.

The events in Afghanistan have a direct influence in the Middle East as a whole. Keeping the place stable will hopefully calm things down on the whole.

It seems a worthwhile project with the number of countries involved in ISAF.

gbee

MikeMichael wrote: »

They should just leave and let the locals sort it out themselves. You can't force a country in change from the outside..

True, just pipe in 90210, Fashion Weekly and the women will overthrow the men.

MikeMichael

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The Taliban would have more than a little influence in what goes on there, as is evident. The locals couldn't exactly march for change there, I mean the Taliban would stone a women to death for looking at another man.

The events in Afghanistan have a direct influence in the Middle East as a whole. Keeping the place stable will hopefully calm things down on the whole.

It seems a worthwhile project with the number of countries involved in ISAF.

Ok so you'd be in favour of pouring into North Korea to sort things out there. And things are pretty bad in Russia and China. A lot of human rights abuses going on there. You intend to take your World Police into these places to sort them out.

The only time a foreign force should invade another is through a UN co-ordinated effort in repsonse to genocide and ethnic cleansing. That is it.

MikeMichael banned

Local-womanizer

MikeMichael wrote: »

Ok so you'd be in favour of pouring into North Korea to sort things out there. And things are pretty bad in Russia and China. A lot of human rights abuses going on there. You intend to take your World Police into these places to sort them out.

The only time a foreign force should invade another is through a UN co-ordinated effort in repsonse to genocide and ethnic cleansing. That is it.

You have to weigh the pros with the cons. If you think going into N.Korea or Russia is the same thing as Afghanistan then you are rather naive.

Whatever an international force decides to do they are damned. The EU intervened in Libya and they were accused of oil mongering etc. if they didnt they were inundated with cries of "how could you let this happen?!"

People like yourself will always criticise those who step into places like Afghanistan carrying out these so called "massacres" you are on about, but then you are happy to see ISAF forces killed in IEDS that more often than not kill and maim afghan civilians and ANA and ANP.

asherbassad

gbee wrote: »

.303 Full Metal Jacket. My unit was security, we had the weapons and millions of rounds as the regular lads got the .762 ~ happy dazzzzzzzzz

Millions of rounds? I thought the Irish armed forces only had enough ammo to hold a few gun salutes.

9959

Local-womanizer wrote: »

You fail to acknowledge the total lack of care shown by the government towards soldiers well being back then.

The army deafness claims was totally avoidable, if the DoD had any cop on.

You're probably right.
My initial post was humorous in nature, it was only when you questioned my figure of 300 million Euro that I felt the need to give you the numbers.
I don't have strong views - either way - on the issue.
Obviously my joke 'misfired'.

Local-womanizer

9959 wrote: »

You're probably right.
My initial post was humorous in nature, it was only when you questioned my figure of 300 million Euro that I felt the need to give you the numbers.
I don't have strong views - either way - on the issue.
Obviously my joke 'misfired'.

I didn't question ya!

But my point is that people use it to beat the Defence Forces with when they were the ones treated like crap. Any member who was entitled to claim would prefer they never had too, and they had full use of their hearing.

gbee

asherbassad wrote: »

Millions of rounds? I thought the Irish armed forces only had enough ammo to hold a few gun salutes.

OK, so there should not be an s at the end, we had about a million to play with, and we did. I was on the all Ireland Bren Gun team too.

strangel00p

gbee wrote: »

My military career spanned five years, circa 1972, 23Bn Signals/Collins Bks, Cork. There was a lot of changes, we were expecting to reinvade the North, we had a President resign and soon after die and we had a defence minister sacked.

Same minister, in preparing us for our upcoming role said we were "paid assassins!" and we got briefly equipped with the latest new weaponry. During my time five members of the FCA were shot and killed in various actions, some accidents some in exchange of fire.

I was not indenting to give details of my service here, just to outline that I was, and it was great, all of it, the fear, the cold, the wet, the hunger, the food. Food never tasted better.

"Paid assassins!", "FCA were shot and killed", "exchange of fire". Sounds like you've been playing too much xbox :pac:
With respect, this is the biggest load of fantasy nonsense I've read in quite some time. You have more chance of being killed crossing the street than you would in the Irish army.

af_thefragile

Because they're brave solders fighting for our freedom!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovRTt0hAPk

gbee

strangel00p wrote: »

"Paid assassins!", "FCA were shot and killed", "exchange of fire". Sounds like you've been playing too much xbox :pac:
With respect, this is the biggest load of fantasy nonsense I've read in quite some time. You have more chance of being killed crossing the street than you would in the Irish army.

The deaths are real, my story is real we were constantly on guard against IRA units, don't forget the period. I was ordered to open fire on a suspected movement, the regulars arrived to sweep the area.

We had a number of attacks on camps, soldiers tied up and weapons taken, and we guarded ESB stations and damns, sadly most of the shootings were blue on blue.

I was called out to Fort Camden once even, ten of us loaded weapons and a bandoleer of 50 live rounds. A unit was enroute from Collins Barracks and a Cavalry Unit coming from Fermoy after security was breeched.

One of our instructors at the time was of a hero from the Congo, 26 Irish peace keepers had been killed during that deployment and 11 alone in one ambush.