Padding missing on Wach,s glove

walshb

I agree that if an athlete is guilty of cheating once then we can wonder and ask the question of whether the athlete cheated in the past. In the Cotto fight I don't think Cotto wins no matter WHAT we know. He wasn't up to the task, even though he boxed superbly. That little bit was missing, and it's a bit that sees him lose to other fighters as well.

T-K-O

I will concede, Cotto would have lost that fight on points. My biggest problem is the stoppage and I have no doubt what caused that

pitythefool

cowzerp wrote: »

Bad hands in most cases is due to bad technique, hence why i said the plaster paris will allow for bad technique while still delivering solid blows, you basically agreed with me but made it look like a disagreement!!

so plaster helps you yo throw harder punches

is that what you are saying?

walshb

Plaster or protection allows a fighter to feel that bit freer to throw shots without risking injury, hence it can allow a fighter to put more ooomph into the shot.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Plaster or protection allows a fighter to feel that bit freer to throw shots without risking injury, hence it can allow a fighter to put more ooomph into the shot.

What Walshb said, with a minor change-he can throw full force with lesser technique as the protection can stop injuries that would usually happen if you land badly with full power.

sxt

I am surprised at how calm and composed Vitali was after checking that right hand glove .

gene_tunney

walshb wrote: »

Thing is that Cotto was never a destructive hitter. Steady hitter. Mosely showed that Margarito's chin wasn't unhuman.

Personally I don't think Margarito's "wraps" were the reason he beat Cotto.

I agree, I think Marg would have beaten him anyway, the wraps definitely did help though.

EDIT: you can't compare Margo and Pac. Pacquiao absolutely destroyed Cotto in what was one of Pac's most amazing displays. Margarito just wore him down.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

I agree, I think Marg would have beaten him anyway, the wraps definitely did help though.

EDIT: you can't compare Margo and Pac. Pacquiao absolutely destroyed Cotto in what was one of Pac's most amazing displays. Margarito just wore him down.

I did not compare Margarito to Manny. I compared the damage done to Cotto by both men. I used this analogy to counter a claim that Cotto's loss to Margarito was somehow unbelievable. Margarito did more than "just" wear him down.

I felt that Margarito landed a deal more to Cotto's head and body for 11 rds than Manny landed. Cotto vs. Manny was running for his life with 4-5 rds to go. He is far from invincible. I cannot see how Cotto's loss to Margarito was highly suspect. Margarito gave him a good going over, and Cotto eventually had enough.

Manny gave Cotto less of a going over, and Cotto was running and had to be saved by the ref.

As for wraps. No investigation found that Margarito used illegal wraps vs. Cotto.

T-K-O

Just to clarify. I was not implying that the victory was unbelievable. It was a surprise that he beat him into submission. Pac beat the hell out of Cotto and the man was still on his feat at the end of the fight.

This 'Manny gave Cotto less of a going over' is simply not true. Cotto V Margartio was a much closer fight in comparison.

gene_tunney

T-K-O wrote: »

Just to clarify. I was not implying that the victory was unbelievable. It was a surprise that he beat him into submission. Pac beat the hell out of Cotto and the man was still on his feat at the end of the fight.

This 'Manny gave Cotto less of a going over' is simply not true. Cotto V Margartio was a much closer fight in comparison.

Yup, Pac beat the **** out of Cotto for the whole fight, whereas for large parts of the first fight Cotto was beating the **** out of Margo.

Henno30

walshb wrote: »

I did not compare Margarito to Manny. I compared the damage done to Cotto by both men. I used this analogy to counter a claim that Cotto's loss to Margarito was somehow unbelievable. Margarito did more than "just" wear him down.

I felt that Margarito landed a deal more to Cotto's head and body for 11 rds than Manny landed. Cotto vs. Manny was running for his life with 4-5 rds to go. He is far from invincible. I cannot see how Cotto's loss to Margarito was highly suspect. Margarito gave him a good going over, and Cotto eventually had enough.

Yeah that's how I feel about it. I don't think Margarito gets enough credit for it at all, and people act like the performance was somehow an anomaly in his career. It most certainly wasn't. He took 5 of the last 7 rounds against Williams in my book against a guy who was stylistically much tougher for him, just by doing the same thing.

The second fight shows why Cotto lost the first. In the rematch, Cotto moved, moved, moved all night and his agility and conditioning was clearly way better. Pedro Diaz deserves a lot of credit for how smooth his direction changes were and how well he glided away from danger after landing his shots. Additionally, on the occasions he did get caught against the ropes, he buried his head in Margarito's chest to cut off the space for the uppercuts.

He didn't do this in the first fight. He wrongly believed he could stand and trade with this guy if necessary, and that he would beat him up like he had beaten everyone else up. That was his mistake. Tony didn't get beaten up, no matter what Cotto threw at him.

It might be a popular opinion, but I would definitely have respect for him as a fighter. He hadn't a lick of polish about him, and he'd regularly get outclassed in the early parts of fights, but he would just keep coming and coming no matter what. His reserves of heart were incredible.

walshb

I am not disputing the closeness of the two fights (Cotto-Margarito; Cotto-Manny).

Margarito IMO gave Cotto more of a beating, and YES, that fight was a deal closer. Cotto sure did give a hell of a lot back. Against Manny, the first 4 rds were close, and then Cotto was on survival mode. He did a pretty decent job too. He got on his bike and he made it quite difficult for Manny to score consistently. Conversely, vs. Margarito, Cotto moved, but he also engaged a lot more which allowed Margarito the time and space to land consistently.

I think I have made my overall point clear: I am not comparing Manny to Margarito. I am just comparing the punishment that Cotto took against both men. IMO he took more of a beating and shipped a deal more body and head shots against Margarito as opposed to against Manny.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Yup, Pac beat the **** out of Cotto for the whole fight, whereas for large parts of the first fight Cotto was beating the **** out of Margo.

No, Cotto made it very difficult for Manny to land consistently in the latter part of the bout. He used his feet very well. Watch both fights. Margarito was on Cotto all night, and landed a fair bit more. And although Cotto was landing a lot on Margarito, he was taking a lot in return. I could be wrong but I think Margarito may have been ahead on the cards at the end.

Manny still dominated, but he did NOT land as much clean shots on Cotto as Margarito landed on Cotto.

walshb

Henno30 wrote: »

The second fight shows why Cotto lost the first. In the rematch, Cotto moved, moved, moved all night and his agility and conditioning was clearly way better. Pedro Diaz deserves a lot of credit for how smooth his direction changes were and how well he glided away from danger after landing his shots. Additionally, on the occasions he did get caught against the ropes, he buried his head in Margarito's chest to cut off the space for the uppercuts.
.

And we must also factor in that fight two showed us that both men were past their best days. Margarito got wrecked by Mosley, and to me Margarito was slower and more cumbersome in fight two. But, still, Cotto had to really move and move and move. Margarito in fight 1 was that bit more energetic and faster. Cotto engaged a bit too much, but also, he was forced to a lot of the time. Margarito tracked him and trapped him much better in fight 1.

walshb

T-K-O wrote: »

Just to clarify. I was not implying that the victory was unbelievable. .

I should have been clearer. Yes, you implied that the manner in which he lost, Cotto retiring, was suspect.

I don't thin it was. He just took too much, and called it a day. Was it punches from loaded gloves? Possibly. But, loaded or not I think the same result is not shocking or suspect. Every man has a limit. Cotto reached his in that fight.

T-K-O

walshb wrote: »

I should have been clearer. Yes, you implied that the manner in which he lost, Cotto retiring, was suspect.

I don't thin it was. He just took too much, and called it a day. Was it punches from loaded gloves? Possibly. But, loaded or not I think the same result is not shocking or suspect. Every man has a limit. Cotto reached his in that fight.

Loaded or not....

If it were not for loaded gloves cotto does not quit on his knee. I like margarito, have always been a fan but he's cheat.

endswell

T-K-O wrote: »

Loaded or not....

If it were not for loaded gloves cotto does not quit on his knee. I like margarito, have always been a fan but he's cheat.

id go further than that. provided wraps were padded, marg beat cotto in this fight because of the wraps and wraps only. another day maybe fair and square.

from round 1 marg could fight with the confidence that he could punch for longer. the whole fight develops the way it did because of this, not because marg had his tactics right but because he could impose himself on cotto more than he might usually have been able to.

T-K-O

endswell wrote: »

id go further than that. provided wraps were padded, marg beat cotto in this fight because of the wraps and wraps only. another day maybe fair and square.

from round 1 marg could fight with the confidence that he could punch for longer. the whole fight develops the way it did because of this, not because marg had his tactics right but because he could impose himself on cotto more than he might usually have been able to.

I wouldn't disagree, because he cheated we will never know

walshb

endswell wrote: »

id go further than that. provided wraps were padded, marg beat cotto in this fight because of the wraps and wraps only. another day maybe fair and square.

from round 1 marg could fight with the confidence that he could punch for longer. the whole fight develops the way it did because of this, not because marg had his tactics right but because he could impose himself on cotto more than he might usually have been able to.

But Margaito was never charged, or found guilty of tampering for the Cotto fight. Yes, if he did use illegal gloves I could get behind your point on how the whole flow of the fight could have been affected.

Me thinks that nobody would question or suspect illegal wraps had Margarito never got caught for the Mosley fight. I certainly would not have suspected anything.

BlackRoom

Pacquiao eased up on Cotto later on in the fight, he could've taken him out if he wanted.

As far as Margarito v Cotto, i don't know but for me there's massive question mark beside that fight.