Royce gracie

squatch

I've been watching a couple of royces early fights and how he dominated using bjj. I was wondering how the level of black belts have changed or evolved.By today's standards would that be still considered black belt level ?Or has bjj evolved to point were a legit black belt at that time might not be so now?

Professey Chin

squatch wrote: »

I've been watching a couple of royces early fights and how he dominated using bjj. I was wondering how the level of black belts have changed or evolved.By today's standards would that be still considered black belt level ?Or has bjj evolved to point were a legit black belt at that time might not be so now?

At bjj hes still a legit black belt. At MMA, hes a legend but overall skills would barely have him relevant

cowzerp

Black belt standard is far higher now in my opinion than what Royce was-watching back now there was many times where lads would have their arms fully extended holding him and he would not see it for a minute or 2 and nowadays you'd expect a good Blue belt to be seeing the same move

I'm sure I'll get some stick for this but Royce to me was not that good at BJJ but was simply beating lads at it who had no clue what was happening, same can be seen in any gym where a good white belt can tap out new lads with ease and in many cases the new members have better knowledge what's happening with seeing the moves on tele regular.

00benski

I'm sure I'll get some stick for this but Royce to me was not that good at BJJ but was simply beating lads at it who had no clue what was happening, same can be seen in any gym where a good white belt can tap out new lads with ease and in many cases the new members have better knowledge what's happening with seeing the moves on tele regular.[/QUOTE]

That is one of the most mentalist statements ive ever heard on boards, and espessially from a mod. He was a bjj black belt since he was 18 for god sake. His family pioneered Bjj, to say he was not that good is crazy.

Yes i understand that none of the competitors in say the first 4 ufc's knew much about bjj, but they were still some top competitors from there disaplins.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm sure I'll get some stick for this but Royce to me was not that good at BJJ

have you been on the sauce Paul?

Plastikman_eire

00benski wrote: »

That is one of the most mentalist statements ive ever heard on boards, and espessially from a mod. He was a bjj black belt since he was 18 for god sake. His family pioneered Bjj, to say he was not that good is crazy.

Yes i understand that none of the competitors in say the first 4 ufc's knew much about bjj, but they were still some top competitors from there disaplins.

Yes, but they were still noobs on the ground, the OP's question was how Royce would compare to high level black belts around now, and Cowzerp is spot on.

Royce against the likes of Cobrinha, Rodolfo Viera or the Mendes brothers etc would be over very quickly.

RainMaker

I think even Joe Rogan has said on one of his podcasts that Royce's BJJ back in the early UFCs was pretty basic, that's not saying he wasn't a black belt, I just think that post UFC1-5 a lot more people were training BJJ and the overall standard gradually increased as a result.

If you look at some of Rickson Gracie's fights in Vale Tudo in the mid 1990s I think you'll see more in common with modern day black belts, but I think that just shows how far ahead of the rest Rickson was back in the day. Rickson just made everything look easier...

00benski

Ah come on, to say that he is no good at bjj is crap, yes there are some amazing bjj practitionors out there and some far far better i agree, but you cant say he is no good.

SBG Ireland

royce trained for vale tudo
current black belts train for ibjjf
some understand the difference
royce = legend and we've all a lot to thank him for.

Stephen_King

squatch wrote: »

I've been watching a couple of royces early fights and how he dominated using bjj. I was wondering how the level of black belts have changed or evolved.By today's standards would that be still considered black belt level ?Or has bjj evolved to point were a legit black belt at that time might not be so now?

From what I've read Royce wasnt considered one of the best black belts of his day, let alone ours. He was chosen for the UFC (which was pretty much designed as a BJJ infomercial in its original format) because he was one of the weakest looking members of the Gracie family at the time, the point of him being there was to show that a 'small' guy could beat bigger guys using BJJ.

As for the black belt being legit, the guy is 45,-obviously if he's rolling against a younger, modern black belt (or even a purple\brown) he'll be at an athletic disadvantage, but to say that a legit black belt from that era is not legit now is a bit nuts-I'd be more worried if it was the other way around, and black belts from that era were still murdering the younger guys. That would suggest that either the sport isnt evolving or the teaching has become stagnant. A prime Royce would not be an easy finish for anyone.

cowzerp

00benski wrote: »

I'm sure I'll get some stick for this but Royce to me was not that good at BJJ but was simply beating lads at it who had no clue what was happening, same can be seen in any gym where a good white belt can tap out new lads with ease and in many cases the new members have better knowledge what's happening with seeing the moves on tele regular.

That is one of the most mentalist statements ive ever heard on boards, and espessially from a mod. He was a bjj black belt since he was 18 for god sake. His family pioneered Bjj, to say he was not that good is crazy.

Yes i understand that none of the competitors in say the first 4 ufc's knew much about bjj, but they were still some top competitors from there disaplins.

1st off me been a Mod means zero to what my opinion is on anything

When I say not that good I am comparing to Black belt BJJ players now and I stand by that opinion

Art Jimmerson was a journeyman and lost at the time of UFC 1, 5 fights to other journeymen already in Boxing which is pretty poor! and after that fight lost 13 out of 17 of his remaining Boxing matches so he was finished even at the low level of Boxing

Royce's family pioneering BJJ and him getting his black belt at 18 may be a bad thing, would he have got it if he was not family? I don't know but it's legit question.

EnjoyChoke

You fight a stronger, more athletic opponent who outweighs you by 30kg or more, take them down, dominate then submit them using BJJ and then repeat this multiple times over the course of a single evening, then you are good at BJJ...

Arawn

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

You fight a stronger, more athletic opponent who outweighs you by 30kg or more, take them down, dominate then submit them using BJJ and then repeat this multiple times over the course of a single evening, then you are good at BJJ...

Not if they have no clue what they are doing on the ground. Then again Royce tapped someone out using a full mount....so that must mean he's the greatest ever

Mr. CooL ICE

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

You fight a stronger, more athletic opponent who outweighs you by 30kg or more, take them down, dominate then submit them using BJJ and then repeat this multiple times over the course of a single evening, then you are good at BJJ...

You are completely missing the point of cowzerp's statement. Nobody is saying Royce is bad at BJJ.

A modern day blue belt could take down and submit the likes of Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy, or any "big athletic lads", if put in an octagon with them with pretty much the same effectiveness that Royce did back in UFC 1-5.

Clive

LordChessington wrote: »

A modern day blue belt could take down and submit the likes of Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy, or any "big athletic lads", if put in an octagon with them with pretty much the same effectiveness that Royce did back in UFC 1-5.

I think you're either greatly overestimating the skills of the average blue belt or radically underestimating the athletic ability of a professional athlete.

Ush1

Just as an FYI, Royce defeated a Judo black belt in a judo competition in 1985 in California.

nino1

cowzerp wrote: »

Art Jimmerson was a journeyman and lost at the time of UFC 1, 5 fights to other journeymen already in Boxing which is pretty poor! and after that fight lost 13 out of 17 of his remaining Boxing matches so he was finished even at the low level of Boxing

.

He also defeated Dan SEvern who was a two time All American wrestler

Stillweak

LordChessington wrote: »

You are completely missing the point of cowzerp's statement. Nobody is saying Royce is bad at BJJ.

A modern day blue belt could take down and submit the likes of Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy, or any "big athletic lads", if put in an octagon with them with pretty much the same effectiveness that Royce did back in UFC 1-5.

I can't believe that there is this level of dillusion around.
Within the rule set of UFC 1 there is not one blue belt in ireland that could take down and control Paul o Connell.
Anyone who feels they could do so please comment because I really could do with the laugh during work tomorrow.
Note: I am willing to accept that a few (very few) of the top mma guys might be able.

El Guapo!

Stillweak wrote: »

Note: I am willing to accept that a few (very few) of the top mma guys might be able.

Why do you say very few?
I'd say any decent mma guy with good wrestling would easily take Paul O'Connell down and control him. They could take him down at will.

Stillweak

In Ireland. Who could?
You think lower tier guys from Irish mma club could take him down at will?

SevereMMA

Stillweak wrote: »

I can't believe that there is this level of dillusion around.
Within the rule set of UFC 1 there is not one blue belt in ireland that could take down and control Paul o Connell.
Anyone who feels they could do so please comment because I really could do with the laugh during work tomorrow.
Note: I am willing to accept that a few (very few) of the top mma guys might be able.

Chris Fields is completely ungraded in jiu-jitsu and he could

SBG Ireland

let me put a little sanity into this thread...coz im bored and home early from gym haha
take it from someone who's grappled with bunch of guys off leinster squad
take it from someone who's fought
take it from someone who's coached the kildare football team
the 'average' or even above average bjj/mma guy in ireland would not take down and control someone like paul, forget about it

when a 40yr old retired GAA player kieran mcgeeney joined my gym he gave the high level guys fits due to tenacity alone

what royce did in those early days against that much athletic disadvantage showed exceptional understanding of his art.

Stillweak

Well that sums it up really. But, please don't let that stop anyone telling us what they would do of o Connell was stupid enough to get in their face.

gallag

Royce had the benifit of being able to wear a gi. Would make a massive difference.

EnjoyChoke

LordChessington wrote: »

You are completely missing the point of cowzerp's statement. Nobody is saying Royce is bad at BJJ.

A modern day blue belt could take down and submit the likes of Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy, or any "big athletic lads", if put in an octagon with them with pretty much the same effectiveness that Royce did back in UFC 1-5.

I'm sorry, but this is delusional.

EnjoyChoke

Arawn wrote: »

Not if they have no clue what they are doing on the ground. Then again Royce tapped someone out using a full mount....so that must mean he's the greatest ever

I get the feeling that you don't really know what you're talking about.

What I wrote can't really be argued with.

Royce is a legend of MMA, who was and still is excellent at BJJ. This is a fact not an opinion.

darced

This post has been deleted.

EnjoyChoke

gallag wrote: »

Royce had the benifit of being able to wear a gi. Would make a massive difference.

Hahaha, this thread is deadly!
Wearing the gi in MMA is a disadvantage, not a benefit.

Mellor

cowzerp wrote: »

Royce's family pioneering BJJ and him getting his black belt at 18 may be a bad thing, would he have got it if he was not family? I don't know but it's legit question.

I've often wondered that. If being a Gracie helped at all.
But I don't think it would tbh. Being a gracie BB, he becomes a walking advertisement for Gracie BJJ. If he was sub standard and being tapped out by random lower ranks from other schools, or even with their own school it would undermine the entire thing.

Dean09 wrote: »

Why do you say very few?
I'd say any decent mma guy with good wrestling would easily take Paul O'Connell down and control him. They could take him down at will.

He was talking about within the ruleset of UFC 1. When Paul is allowed to fight back a lot of their BJJ advantage goes out the window. Even without striking his size and strength would allow him decent wrestling.

Mellor

gallag wrote: »

Royce had the benifit of being able to wear a gi. Would make a massive difference.

How?

SBG Ireland

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

fair play to you and are you available to teach? i struggled taking down lads from leinster and still have fits with mcgeeney

Xlami

I know he was 40 years old when UFC 1 happened from what I've read Relson was much better than Royce. Maybe had he entered himself he would have the same status in the sport as his brother has now. As the popularity of BBJ has soared as has the number of black belts, losing some of the prestige associated with the title. Out of curiosity does anyone with an educated opinion feel that through whatever way the sport has developed are there some undeserving black belts out there who would not be as good as the black belts of 10 years ago?

Tom.D.BJJ

Some crazy stuff being said on this thread. It's pretty hard to take down any rugby player these days, never mind an 6ft6 110kg international grade second row.

As for taking down McGeeney, i've faced him twice in competition. He's a very tough dude and really hard to take down.

Mellor

SBG Ireland wrote: »

fair play to you and are you available to teach? i struggled taking down lads from leinster and still have fits with mcgeeney

I think he meant club and recreational players not top level guys.

Stephen_King

Mellor wrote: »

I think he meant club and recreational players not top level guys.

Maybe. However-

LordChessington wrote: »

A modern day blue belt could take down and submit the likes of Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy, or any "big athletic lads", if put in an octagon with them with pretty much the same effectiveness that Royce did back in UFC 1-5.

There is a huge difference between an elite level competitive athlete and a 'big athletic lad' or recreational player. Without decent wrestling you'll have a tough time getting down someone of O'Connells size, and even with decent wrestling I still think it would require a hellacious effort should he decide to make it competitive.

Could always jump guard I suppose :rolleyes:

darced

This post has been deleted.

gallag

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Hahaha, this thread is deadly!
Wearing the gi in MMA is a disadvantage, not a benefit.

Now a day's it would be a disadvantage, in the early days before people understood and gameplanned the friction and being able to use the gi as a weapon would be an advantage. No need for the hahaha.

Mellor

gallag wrote: »

Now a day's it would be a disadvantage, in the early days before people understood and gameplanned the friction and being able to use the gi as a weapon would be an advantage. No need for the hahaha.

Even against somebody who had never seen a gi, they don't need to gamplan or extensive knowledge of bjj to be to grip it easily.

The small few times when the gi helps the wearer, is massively out weighed by the advantage it gives the other guy.

EnjoyChoke

gallag wrote: »

No need for the hahaha.

Read this thread from the top, it's ridiculous to the point of being hilarious.
So far we have:
Royce was no good at BJJ, he only won because his opponents were unskilled.
Wearing the gi gave him a substantial advantage over his nogi rivals.
Any average blue belt or MMA fighter would destroy a much heavier, world class contact sport athlete.
This thread should be on the comedy forum, it's given me a laugh anyway

p to the e

gallag wrote: »

Now a day's it would be a disadvantage, in the early days before people understood and gameplanned the friction and being able to use the gi as a weapon would be an advantage. No need for the hahaha.

NO NO NO NO NO NO

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Read this thread from the top, it's ridiculous to the point of being hilarious.
So far we have:
Royce was no good at BJJ, he only won because his opponents were unskilled.

Any average blue belt or MMA fighter would destroy a much heavier, world class contact sport athlete.

Who said Royce was no good at BJJ? it was said that today's Black belts are higher standard at BJJ than he was and this is by no means crazy! This was the question that was asked, Not was Royce rubbish or anything like that.

Also "any blue belt would destroy a much heavier, World class contact sport athlete" yes they may do if they train MMA, taking down paul o connell in wrestling match would be very hard but not so hard if he was swinging punches or kicks at you and was untrained at wrestling such as happened in MMA in the early days.

Oh and Royce while smaller than his opponents was still a decent size, about 80kg I think which is a decent size, not small like most people would talk about.

Basically it is very hard to throw punches and kicks while staying on your feet when someone is wrestling at you, much easier if all you have to do is wrestle back, If people don't understand the difference then that's laughable.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

Who said Royce was no good at BJJ?

"Royce to me was not that good at BJJ but was simply beating lads who had no clue what was happening" - Cowzerp

Look , if that's not what you meant fair enough, but it is what you said.
Also I think you're way, way off the mark with the Paul O'Connell thing, maybe if you sparred with someone of his level you'd think different.

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

"Royce to me was not that good at BJJ but was simply beating lads who had no clue what was happening" - Cowzerp

Look , if that's not what you meant fair enough, but it is what you said.
Also I think you're way, way off the mark with the Paul O'Connell thing, maybe if you sparred with someone of his level you'd think different.

Does not mean No good-I'm comparing v Today's Black belts, Fact of the matter is even the Gracie's admit he was not near the best of them at the time, but he fitted the bill for showing off the sport, Plus I never even heard of him doing well at BJJ.

Paul O' Connell is a great Rugby player, he is not a great BJJ, Wrestler, Boxer or anything of the sort, If the UFC early days proved anything it was been big and athletic was not enough, if you run straight into like a rugby player does i have no doubt you will end up on the wrong end, if you time it for when he has thrown a punch, kick or whatever all would be different, Now with that said that does not mean you will keep him down as he would probably just throw most of us straight off.

So again just to be clear, Paul O connell just stopping take downs will be extremely difficult to get down, if he wants to KO you as in MMA and swings at you it's a whole different story-This does not happen in BJJ, so if talking pure BJJ that's a whole different conversation.

EnjoyChoke

cowzerp wrote: »

Does not mean No good-I'm comparing v Today's Black belts, Fact of the matter is even the Gracie's admit he was not near the best of them at the time, but he fitted the bill for showing off the sport, Plus I never even heard of him doing well at BJJ.

Paul O' Connell is a great Rugby player, he is not a great BJJ, Wrestler, Boxer or anything of the sort, If the UFC early days proved anything it was been big and athletic was not enough, if you run straight into like a rugby player does i have no doubt you will end up on the wrong end, if you time it for when he has thrown a punch, kick or whatever all would be different, Now with that said that does not mean you will keep him down as he would probably just throw most of us straight off.

So again just to be clear, Paul O connell just stopping take downs will be extremely difficult to get down, if he wants to KO you as in MMA and swings at you it's a whole different story-This does not happen in BJJ, so if talking pure BJJ that's a whole different conversation.

Saying Royce is "not that good" when compared to today's Blackbelts is like Jesse Owens is "not that good" when compared to today's sprinters.
( I'm presuming your talking about high level competitive Black belts as well, otherwise it makes even less sense)

My point with Paul O'Connell, or any comparable athlete is this, you would need to have a very high level of grappling, be very well conditioned and have at worst a modest size disadvantage to have a hope of taking him down and controlling him in BJJ or MMA. The average blue belt or fighter would get destroyed.

Plastikman_eire

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Saying Royce is "not that good" when compared to today's Blackbelts is like Jesse Owens is "not that good" when compared to today's sprinters.
.

Exactly!!

The fact that things have moved on in no way detracts from Royces achievements, but modern high level blackbelts are more skilled(or at least display more skills than Royce did back in the day)

RoboRat

BJJ is always evolving so its reasonable to say that a top level BB today would be better than Royce in his day... and in 10 years time a the top BB's will be better than todays BB's, its natural evolution and is especially relevant with how the sport has grown and continues to grow. More people = more competition = higher standard.

Taking down and controlling the likes of top rugby players and GAA players is a lot harder than some people seem to think... these people are stronger, fitter and better prepared mentally with a huge core strength - they usually have an insatiable will to win so its not just about technique. You also have to understand that the likes of POC is used to turning and controlling his body in a tackle or under a ruck of people which is no mean feat. If someone is willing to go up against a top Rugby professional to prove this wrong, please let me know because I would love to see it!!

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Saying Royce is "not that good" when compared to today's Blackbelts is like Jesse Owens is "not that good" when compared to today's sprinters.
( I'm presuming your talking about high level competitive Black belts as well, otherwise it makes even less sense)

squatch wrote: »

I've been watching a couple of royces early fights and how he dominated using bjj. I was wondering how the level of black belts have changed or evolved.By today's standards would that be still considered black belt level ?Or has bjj evolved to point were a legit black belt at that time might not be so now?

This is what i have been discussing the whole time, Most are going off on their own scenarios-The BJJ level in Modern MMA is far higher than Royce was at and the competitors its against are even far far better at BJJ-Now the original questions was how good his BJJ was to today's black belts, the actual answer is hard to answer as there can be a broad range in standards, Let's put it this way, No BJJ Black belt that i know would let Keith Hackney have his arm extended for ages without at least trying an arm bar-yes he eventually got it, about 30 seconds after it was 1st offered on a plate to him!


So comparing Jesse owens is not fair, Royce was never considered top of the BJJ field, some more knowledgable people can tell me, but i never heard of him winning any BJJ tournaments.

Ush1

I can remember when I thought Royce was invincible after the first UFCs..........then Wallid Ismail choked him unconcious.:(

Just imagine Paul O Connell actually following this thread!:pac:

RoboRat

Just imagine Paul O Connell actually following this thread!

My computer just crashed as that comment has put the fear of God into it :-O

Mr. CooL ICE

I'll hold my hands up and admit that using POC and CH as examples was a bad idea. I simply couldn't think of any other big athletic, non-MMA people that weren't rugby players off the top of my head, let alone people in a sport where staying on your feet is a major aspect.

However, I still maintain that hypothetically putting a big athletic (like POC/CH, not necessarily rugby players) lad into an octagon with as little knowledge of MMA as Royce's opponents back in UFC 1-5, and told to fight a modern day blue belt, using the three first UFC rules, the blue belt would win. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

nino1

RoboRat wrote: »

More people = more competition = higher standard.

i think robrat has hit the nail on the head here.
Its ridiculous to compare the two eras.
He was one of the very few very high level black belts at the time.
Today there are loads of very high level black belts.
How could you possible reach the same standard without being able to push yourself against similarly skilled opponents.

all you can do is beat who they put in front of you and compete against the level of opponent at that time. Royce did an amazing job, put bjj on the map and will forever be a legend.