Royce gracie

Mellor

LordChessington wrote: »

I'll hold my hands up and admit that using POC and CH as examples was a bad idea. I simply couldn't think of any other big athletic, non-MMA people that weren't rugby players off the top of my head, let alone people in a sport where staying on your feet is a major aspect.

However, I still maintain that hypothetically putting a big athletic (like POC/CH, not necessarily rugby players) lad into an octagon with as little knowledge of MMA as Royce's opponents back in UFC 1-5, and told to fight a modern day blue belt, using the three first UFC rules, the blue belt would win. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I think you are being a little disingenuous towards"some" of the early guys. Art Jimmerson, fair enough, he had no clue what he was doing. But take Shamrock, he had a wrestling background, and had already competed in Pancrase matches before UFC 1. He won his first match by heel hook. He wasn't some body with little knowledge of MMA/grappling. It would take more than a modern blue belt to beat him.
In the UFC 1-5 period he had wins over Bas and other high quality opponents. Plus a draw with Royce. He wasn't a walkover.

Similar can be said about Dan Severn and probably some others.


I'm not saying that Royce was up there with the Mendes, Lister, Estmas, etc of today. But that's not a fair criticism.
If he didnt take the armbar the moment it was offered. I'd be pretty sure it was a conscious decision (for what ever reason) and not because he didn't see it. I amber hearing in vale Tudor matches he purposely hold back submission pressure to draw it out and/or beat them up a bit more.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mellor wrote: »

I think you are being a little disingenuous towards"some" of the early guys. Art Jimmerson, fair enough, he had no clue what he was doing. But take Shamrock, he had a wrestling background, and had already competed in Pancrase matches before UFC 1. He won his first match by heel hook. He wasn't some body with little knowledge of MMA/grappling. It would take more than a modern blue belt to beat him.
In the UFC 1-5 period he had wins over Bas and other high quality opponents. Plus a draw with Royce. He wasn't a walkover.

Similar can be said about Dan Severn and probably some others.


I'm not saying that Royce was up there with the Mendes, Lister, Estmas, etc of today. But that's not a fair criticism.
If he didnt take the armbar the moment it was offered. I'd be pretty sure it was a conscious decision (for what ever reason) and not because he didn't see it. I amber hearing in vale Tudor matches he purposely hold back submission pressure to draw it out and/or beat them up a bit more.

Fair point, but the two fights with Shamrock weren't great examples. First, there was the use of the gi, but that's a questionable complaint because Ken Shamrock was probably just being Ken Shamrock. Second match, Shamrock would have won if it was organised properly. The Severn fight, fair enough, but I'd put that down to Severn insisting on staying in the guard of someone with a far higher submission game than him for what seemed like an hour. But a win is a win.

Also, to clarify, I also would never say Royce could be beaten by a modern day blue belt. Just that both would be almost as effective in the hypothetical UFC 1-5 scenarios

Xlami

As far as the Paul O'Connell argument goes Pendred, Dean Amasinger, Hathaway and Te-Huna have all accredited their rugby backgrounds in helping them transfer to MMA. So unless the average blue belt uses a taser I don't see how they would comfortably control all top atheltes on the ground.