Hele Windows

Bookworm85

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for advice on behalf of family members. On 26th of September my parents ordered a new front door from Hele Windows in Midleton Co. Cork. The same day they payed the 50% deposit and were told it would be fitted within 7 weeks, so the new door would have been due this week. However, we have just found out in the newspaper that the factory has been closed since Thursday and the workers there are staging a sit in.

Can anybody advise us where we stand regarding the deposit? Is there any hope of us seeing that money again? We have tried calling the numbers for the factory/office and even the sales reps number, but obviously these calls are going unanswered. It was quite a substantial sum and my parents are obviously eager to get it back.

What's the best course of action here?

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

Bookworm85

Thanks Melendez,

That's the article we saw this morning.

Will be taking a trip to the factory this evening to see if the door is there. We don't have a staff contact right now (we have the number of the sales rep who called to the house to do the initial measuring and show glass samples etc. but he is not responding to calls) Hopefully, if it is ready then my parents will be able to buy it from the liquidator.

They paid the deposit by Laser, is there a chargeback facility for Laser? The money was taken from the account almost immediately so it has been nearly 2 months since the transaction occurred at this stage (not sure if that's relevant).

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

passiveshopper

There is much more to this in that deposits were being taken by giving unrealistic quotes with no realistic chance of completing the orders when the company was clearly insolvent. It seems there was a big backlist in orders going back over 6mts and there was no attempt made to purchase raw materials. They deposits taken were leaving the compamy accounts as fast as they went in. This clearly is not a case of trading difficulty and it seems what was once a profitable responsible company began to have difficulty with a relatively recent change in directors.
I don’t believe there will be anything for creditors in the end. At present there is a battle of wills taking place before the High Court as the former directors of Hele seek to appoint their own liquidator while one of its biggest creditor Profile Systems of Naas in conjunction with former employees want to appoint their own and continue to run the company as a viable concern. It seems the order book is full but the deposits book the deposits have disappeared.
Yes indeed a clear case for the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Gardai Fraud squad.

passiveshopper

not looking good for creditors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Profile Systems Holdings claims it is owned €93,000 for goods and services it supplied to Hele's manufacturing facility at Owenacurra Business Park, Knockgriffin, Midleton.
Today Ms Justice Mary Laffoy said there were questions about the motives for the petition.
She dismissed Profile's application to have a provisional liquidator appointed after being informed that Hele had passed a resolution to go into voluntary liquidation.
The judge adjourned the application to have the company wound up to a date a December."
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1114/hele-windows-cork.html

passiveshopper

A creditors meeting has being called by the liquidator: Ambassador Hotel, Military Hill, St Luke’s, Cork on 29th November 2012 at 10am
Every creditor should become familiar with the law on such a creditors meeting
• the creditors of the insolvent company who are in control of the liquidation process. While the creditors’ meeting will be chaired by a director of the insolvent company the purpose of
the meeting its purpose is to enable the creditors to consider the director’s “statement of affairs”. The Principal Act requires that the directors’ make available a full statement of the
position of the company’s affairs together with a list of the creditors of the company and theestimated amount of their claims.
• At the creditors’ meeting the directors will be expected to account to the creditors as to the causes of the company’s insolvency.
• The creditors may also at this meeting appoint an alternative liquidator in place of the one which was appointed by the shareholders of the company in general meeting.
• In addition the creditors are also entitled to appoint a committee of inspection comprised of up to five people nominated by the creditors with up to three additional members nominated by the members of the Company which such nominees may be objected to by the creditors. The committee of inspection has, inter alia, the power to fix the remuneration of the liquidator, determine whether the liquidator should continue the business of the company and to determine whether the powers of the directors should continue. This element of control together with the perceived cost benefits of the voluntary liquidation process means that many creditors prefer the creditor’s voluntary process to that of an official liquidation.

Bookworm85

Thanks for all the advice folks,

The door is not at the factory, and speaking with one of the staff it looks like the raw materials for it were never even ordered :mad:

We will be attending the creditors meeting in the ambassador and will be demanding a full refund. The details of my parents laser card were taken fraudulently (the company was trading while insolvent).Thankfully the bank have been very helpful to my parents and have promised to assist my parents in retrieving the deposit should they have trouble getting the money back from the liquidator.

Fingers crossed they will get their money back soon.

Again, thanks for the info and I'll pop back when I know more.

sinmarabhfuil

We are in a similiar situation to you @bookworm85. My mother paid the deposit end of May 2012. They fobbed us off over the summer with delays on the installation of the door. Eventually we got them to cancel the door, though they gave us a cheque returning the €600 deposit, it bounced.
Do you know when they became insolvent?
Will try to attend at the Ambassador.

passiveshopper

sinmarabhfuil wrote: »

We are in a similiar situation to you @bookworm85. My mother paid the deposit end of May 2012. They fobbed us off over the summer with delays on the installation of the door. Eventually we got them to cancel the door, though they gave us a cheque returning the €600 deposit, it bounced.
Do you know when they became insolvent?
Will try to attend at the Ambassador.

They claim to be solvent which is a requirement to seeking a voluntary liquidation and I think they must have an audited report to support this. It’s also a requirement that that the directors must make a statutory declaration to this purpose. Then one comes across bounced cheques by the company, uncompetitive pricing to get deposits and getting deposits right up to the eve of ceasing trading, continuous fobbing off customers who have paid deposits over a 6mts period and the workers report they have being “twiddling their thumbs” as the company has being gradually wound down over 6mts in that stock has not replenished but the order book with deposits growing in disproportion.
Looks like to me the voluntary winding up is to consolidate for the directors/shareholders for themselves the company assets and to fob off the creditors and I presume this includes the former staff in all this. The directors have their own “liquidator” in place to largely do as they please without supervision by the creditors in that they can sell of the company assets to whom they like a peppercorn prices. The workers with one of their biggest creditor want to start up the business again and run it as a going concern and to look after the creditors but this has being fought off by the directors of the company. It would appear to me this voluntary liquidation is an attempt to evade their responsibilities and it would appear that this is an attempt for the directors to reopen under a new name and trade again with a clean slate having existing stock and equipment and this would be largely ignoring the creditors. And when it’s a "fait accompli" it’s much more difficult for creditors to seek redress in going after the liquidator and directors.
This all wants very close watching although from a distance.

irishshadowfax

Hi Bookworm, my parents are in the same situation. Paid a deposit by check for €3000 for a door and window. Check was cashed as late as October 3rd. They then received a letter indicating they are no shareholders in the company and can attend the meeting at the end of the month. Have we any right to claim money back if the voluntary liquidation was sought before the check was cashed? My father has spoken to a staff member who did answer his call, and he informed us there is 80-90 people in the same situation as us. Surely we have some rights to protect customers when the directors are/were clearly asset stripping the company. Not sure how to proceed from here - whether to get a solicitor etc. involved...

Thanks for all the info so far folks,

IS

passiveshopper

One can read into it asset-stripping cum fraud on the creditors in the light of bouncing cheques and the taking deposits right up to the day before ceasing of trading along with this with taking of deposits on uncompetitive contracts and everyone being owed. It would appear that “deposit” creditors are owed in the region of €1/2 million and then there are also suppliers and others. It would appear the creditors’ rights of intervention are limited in such a member voluntary liquidation and this is a lacuna that Irish Company law which needs to be addressed to give creditors an insight to the liquidation process before the final curtain falls. I would presume the liquidator has a trustee function in all this but after the event it’s much more difficult to get satisfaction in going after the former directors and liquidator. I understand the Garda Fraud Squad and the Director of Corporate Enforcement like a Liquidators complaint before they go investigating although it’s my understanding the Gardai have received creditors’ complaints and are familiar with the case but must wait in the wings pending other things to happen.
As for shareholders of the company, no company can operate without such and for this company Natalie Lentzy and Tanja Lentzy are listed as directors. It would appear that Natalie Lentzy is married to the sales manager Austin Leonard who was the chief of operations doing the soft sell as well as managing the operation and a address is listed for them in leafy hillside of Rochestown. It would also appear that Hele a family run company problems arose after the founding directors of the company retired after over 40 yrs as and when she came to the helm assisted by her husband. There is also a subsidiary company Cnt House Limited listed as for Development and Selling of Real Estate. This company became a single member company in Jan 2012 and its last account 12mts ago it had net assets in the region of €½ million.

passiveshopper

Received this email from a former I won’t name the sender but gives the gist of what’s going on.

On Thursday evening 8/11/12 Hele windows closed its doors abruptly to the public thus ending years of service spanning back to 1965 to Cork county and indeed the surrounding counties. In that time Hele had always been associated with quality products and excellent workmanship and had long been up there with the market leaders in the window and door business commanding a sizeable chunk of the market with exceptional referrel business which was in itself testament to its excellent reputation!
So what went wrong on the 8/11/12? What caused the business to open it doors at 8.00am in the morning and by 3-15pm close its doors for the last time leaving 17 workers to join the ranks of the unemployed while at the same time leaving up to 90 customers in limbo in respect of doors and windows which they had paid sizeable deposits to have installed! In the hours that ensued we decided to commence a sit in to firstly get our heads around this bombshell that had hit us and secondly when we realised it was happening to us what steps could we take to try and salvage our jobs and most importantly how we would face our customers and what we could say to them to show them we were in complete solidarity with them and that as well as fighting for our jobs we intended to ask the serious questions for them in an effort to try and get the answers that they truly deserved.
On behalf of the affected staff and customers, we sought the support of the Company’s main supplier to take this matter directly to the High Court on Fri 9/11 and to request the appointment of a Provisional Liquidator to deal with all the matters surrounding this collapse. During the period of our sit in which ended on Saturday 17/11/12 we were in regular contact with affected customers establishing the status on their jobs and giving them regular updates on the High Court proceedings. Unfortunately our application to the High Court proved unsuccessful and the Directors were permitted to follow the normal creditor’s liquidation route which will result in an appointment by majority creditor voting at a meeting on Thurs 29/11. At this stage we must compliment and thank the affected customers for the support they have given us as employees and the dignified manner in which they have conducted themselves in throughout this whole sorry episode. Its is mainly because of their support that we are even more committed at this stage to fighting their cause and receiving some answers which as consumers they are entitled too.
As a workforce we are still endeavouring to find answers as to the closure of the firm especially at a time when there was a major volume of orders to be made on the factory floor and subsequently installed with all orders being taken with a 50% deposit paid by customers. The answers we received on the night of the closure were both inconclusive and vague. We are thankful to all suppliers who have worked with us since the closure to clarify certain things and show us support and wish us the best in our quest. We sincerely hope we can work with these suppliers going forward as it is our firm belief that the firm with some structural changes and under new management can survive and return to its place as a leader in the window/door market in the munster area again-this has been reinforced by the goodwill and support of both ex customers and present customers.
The meeting of creditors is fixed for 10am on the 29/11/12 at the Ambassador Hotel in Cork and we hope at this meeting to take the next step to acquiring some much sought after answers. We are stating here and now that we would urge all affected Hele customers who are now creditors of the company to come to the meeting and air their views so that we can move forward as staff and customers to make a stand together and receive the answers and action we both deserve. If you cannot attend and vote at this meeting we would ask you to consider appointing a proxy in your sted.
Also at this stage may we thank the press for the coverage they have given our cause and also thank all customers who have rowed in with their help and support over the last 10 days and last but not least we would like to thank the people of Midleton who brought us food and drink during our sit in and especially the 2 business' in town who fed us at lunchtime and tea time on each of the 8 days of our sit in.
With our extreme gratitude,
The former workers of Hele Windows.

passiveshopper

I understand some creditors have received “proxy voting papers” from the “Liquidator” others have not, I have not received any and I’m a creditor and became one on the eve of the event. I also understand Austin Leonard the “chief bottle washer” of Hele and husband of the prime Director of that company Ms Natalie Lentzy is phoning creditors with all types of promises for his choice of liquidator to be selected in this proxy form. Promises such as your windows and doors are ready and waiting to be fitted etc etc and they to be later told by ex- staff of Hele whom they are in contact with that this is not true.

I still don’t know what type of Liquidation the company is in, is it a “Members Voluntary Liquidation” or is it a “Creditors Voluntary Liquidation. I understand for the former as is stated in the Company Act 1963 S. 256.—(1) ....make a statutory declaration to the effect that they have made a full inquiry into the affairs of the company, and that having done so, they have formed the opinion that the company will be able to pay its debts “ ie the company can pay it depts.
(7) A winding up in the case of which a declaration has been made and delivered in accordance with this section is in this Act referred to as “a members' voluntary winding up” and a voluntary winding up in the case of which a declaration has not been made and delivered as aforesaid or in the case of which an order is made under subsection (3) is in this Act referred to as “a creditors' voluntary winding up”.
From the former staff I understand the company is grossly insolvent.

What all the fighting in the High Court was about has me puzzled as it would appear it must be a “Creditors Voluntary Winding Up”, as this company is grossly insolvent and was involved in Fraudulent Trading with months.
Should the latter be the case it’s important that creditors should become familiar with what’s involved in the Creditors Liquidation or get professional advice from a solicitor or accountant. It’s obvious that “Creditors” best interest is served by getting control of the liquidation by getting a “Creditors Appointed Liquidator “ in charge of the liquidation and also the appointment of a liquidation “committee” to oversee this. Whatever hope creditors have of recovering anything rest on this choice but it also allows the opportunity should there be fraud that it’s the “Liquidators “ duty to call in the Gardai and Director of Corporate Enforcement should this be the case

Creditors Voluntary Liquidation Meeting.
* The directors’ make available a full statement of the position of the company’s affairs together with a list of the creditors of the company and the estimated amount of their claims.
* At the creditors’ meeting the directors will be expected to account to the creditors as to the causes of the company’s insolvency.
* The creditors may also at this meeting appoint an alternative liquidator in place of the one which was appointed by the shareholders of the company in general meeting.
* In addition the creditors are also entitled to appoint a committee of inspection comprised of up to five people nominated by the creditors with up to three additional members nominated by the members of the Company which such nominees may be objected to by the creditors. The committee of inspection has, inter alia, the power to fix the remuneration of the liquidator, determine whether the liquidator should continue the business of the company and to determine whether the powers of the directors should continue. This element of control together with the perceived cost benefits of the voluntary liquidation process means that many creditors prefer the creditor’s voluntary process to that of an official liquidation.


[B]Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me[/B]

anewme

I doubt if this is a members voluntary liquidation. Members Voluntary means a company pays up everyone, shuts up shop and usually there is a dividend to the shareholders and everyone goes off happy.

If the company is insolvent, that will not be the case. The shareholders will try and "control" the process by getting their "preferred" liquidator appointed, but the Creditors should stick together on this one.

passiveshopper

anewme wrote: »

I doubt if this is a members voluntary liquidation. Members Voluntary means a company pays up everyone, shuts up shop and usually there is a dividend to the shareholders and everyone goes off happy.

If the company is insolvent, that will not be the case. The shareholders will try and "control" the process by getting their "preferred" liquidator appointed, but the Creditors should stick together on this one.

Just don’t know what they are up to that is the directors/shareholders of this company as they have fought this tooth and nail in the High Court to remain in charge. Everything about this concern is lies and more lies and promises pour forth faster than any horse could trot. There is a subsidiary company Cnt House Limited which had assets of €1/2 million on its last company returns. It’s my understanding of company Law that this subsidiary company should fall under the control of the liquidator of Hele Windows Limited the parent company. And I will want the Liquidator to gain control of this subsidiary company.


I understand from discussions with former staff that the main suppler creditors Profile Sys want a professional liquidator appointed and have one ready. My understanding of company law is anyone can be a liquidator in there is no professional standard required other than it must not be a corporate entity. I would also like to have a committee of inspection appointed to oversee the liquidation process. A committee of inspection comprised of up to five people nominated by the creditors with up to three additional members nominated by the members of the Company which such nominees may be objected to by the creditors. I would like to see at least 1 from the deposit creditors, 1 from the staff or former staff and 1 from the credit suppliers. As for the previous directors the further they can be pushed away the better for everyone and let’s get to the bottom of this.


Remember the meeting is for Ambassador Hotel, Military Hill, St Luke’s, Cork on Thursday 29th November 2012 at 10am. Every creditor should attend and while many like me have no provisional liquidators notification I presume such will not be a bar to attending in that the former directors/shareholders of Hele Windows Ltd. will not have a private security present preventing those without such invitations attending. It would be in creditors’ interest to bring some evidence with them to show Gardai if such a policy was adopted as all creditors have a legal right to attend the meeting.

coylemj

I think a reality check is called for here. If there is any money left in the kitty, the employees and the Revenue Commissioners will be preferred creditors and based on the description of how the company was run for the past few months (raking in deposits and not spending any of it on buying raw materials), I doubt there will be a penny left for the people who have paid deposits.

Sorry to be blunt but your money is gone. All you can hope for now is that there will be a criminal investigation and if people are proved to have traded recklessly that they get their just desserts though I wouldn't hold my breath.

passiveshopper

Yes indeed it turned out to be a totally insolvent company and subsidiary company and it turned into a rather stormy meeting with one creditor to the loss of €18k and a building without windows and doors, another had to discharge herself from cancer treatment in the CUH to attend while more with installations ranging from ill fitting windows and doors to having windows with condensation obviously not having proper double glazed glass, obviously cobbled together fittings to get the reminder of payments, while other creditors told of the lies, promises, obfuscation and what was downright fraud. And in the midst of what is a Lentzy family fratricide that led to the takeover by Natalie Lentzy and Austin Leonard which led to the present. Serious doubt was raised to the legitimacy of the creditors meeting as some creditors did not receive notification nor proxies and for the accounts presented these were not verified to be properly drawn up and to the rubbing of salt into a very open wound in that the largest creditors being the same Natalie Lentzy and her husband Austin Leonard again on unverified statements of affairs. Creditor after creditor told of lies, false promises and bounced cheques where refunds were sought. And the lies did not stop with the Lentzys’ it was a meeting where the honesty and the truth was in very short supply and this applied to professionals who were found to have lied. The workers were perturbed to where the deposits went and to the fact they were assured by Natalie Lentzy and her husband Austin Leonard that the company was strong when they queried to the legitimacy of taking deposits for work that they felt would never be undertaken. The main supplier creditor Profile Sys spoke of his visit to Hele over a month before it went belly up and the scavenging and pillaging of orders to fulfill other orders and it was apparent to him that Hele was finished and they also spoke of meetings with the Natalia Lentzy as far back as 6mts ago to the doom Hele was entering and yet it was busy if not stepped up a gear to get even more deposits in while it was a failed entity.

If the people responsible for this FRAUD gets away with it then we truly live in a country where white collar crime is tolerated and allowed.

saom

The onus is on us to fight this one out and not give up. We have been in touch with our solicitor and he has advised us what to do. May also be worth getting in touch with the Gardai. Liars and cheats need to get their comeuppance. We all work hard for our money and these people have blatently stolen it from us. They must be prosecuted for their wrong-doing.

passiveshopper

saom wrote: »

The onus is on us to fight this one out and not give up. We have been in touch with our solicitor and he has advised us what to do. May also be worth getting in touch with the Gardai. Liars and cheats need to get their comeuppance. We all work hard for our money and these people have blatently stolen it from us. They must be prosecuted for their wrong-doing.

Yes indeed all creditors should make out a statement and bring it to your local Garda station as I understand it the Fraud Squad in Anglesea Garda station are familiar with it. But the process must begin with your local garda station which you reside in. Also make out one for the Director of Corporate Enforcement.
While getting a solicitor is all ok but this is another expense with no guarantee of return, it might be more appropriate to take out a District Court summons DIY with the stamping charge of €22. C&P onto word-processor and fill in the details
http://www.courts.ie/rules.nsf/53bd32841fc5bbf280256d2b0045bb5d/db8f64f213a0567f80257638004f183d?OpenDocument
All one has to do is fill in the details and bring to the District Court Office, one needs a few copies one that the District Court holds, one for the Defendant and on for to keep on file.

I would have the Director Natalie Lentzy and whatever other employee that was involved as Defendant(s) and the address for Natalie Lentzy Edelweiss Landsborough Gardens Rochestown Cork and the claim to recovery would be particular to the case but I believe most are of Fraudulent Trading, Theft, Deception to Reckless Trading to issuing a false instrument for bounced cheque and more misrepresentation and breach of contract for substandard product.

shamevak

i wonder have some people that paid a deposit got their windows fitted ? i know outside window companies have been contacted in regards to finishing off the jobs , some doors would have been bought in from profile developments and are made but not released because there not paid for ,

passiveshopper

shamevak wrote: »

i wonder have some people that paid a deposit got their windows fitted ? i know outside window companies have been contacted in regards to finishing off the jobs , some doors would have been bought in from profile developments and are made but not released because there not paid for ,

Seems there is a small number of semi finished widows that can be identified for customers and glass and other items are needed to be purchased. As for payments for theses where they can be id as for a customer the customer should not have to pay more than the original contract price that is the balance of the contract. As for doors from Profile Systems it would seem that this company had ceased supply with some time because of unpaid bills and the company was aware of the difficulty of Hele with 6mts so I would not imagine there is very little of their stuff around Hele. For the vast majority of customers its 0. As for the liquidation it seems there is nothing for the customers who lost out. But we await further information from the liquidator on the time scale of how that a company and subsidiary that had assets in excess of €1Million now is €1Million in debt.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: