So, I'm back to getting a dog...

DeVore

Ok, set phasers to Awwww...

Tonight Josh was very sleepy after a hugely exciting day of lots of unknown people coming into his kitchen, a biiig walk, a bone, a burnt pizza which had to be barked to death and practise for 10 minutes of being locked in his crate (he's not a fan but he went back in and out afterwards freely enough).

So, I'm pooped too, been a very busy day for "daddy" as well. I came in just now and he had been in his bed and waddled over to me and leaned on my shins like usual when he's tired. I sat down on the floor and he flumped onto my legs and I enjoyed a minute rubbing his head while he looked up at me. Then his eyes just glazed over and he turned his head into me and conked out cold. Its absolutely one of the nicest things I've had happen to me and I can certainly see the stress-relieving element of dog ownership (not that it doesnt also have its stressful moments too!).

I'm really starting to bond with this dog I think

anniehoo

DeVore wrote: »

I'm really starting to bond with this dog I think

Awww is right.

Dog ownership...any pet ownership tbh is all about the little moments. I've been fostering an elderly dog since xmas (it was only meant to be for 2 weeks) and over the weekend she started wagging her tail for the first time. It sounds like such a trivial thing, but i swear to god i was choked up. She was happy,genuinely happy and i could've burst i was so thrilled with myself. She was so frail when i got her, so downtrodden and underloved...to see that tail wagging made all the effort worth it.

It's all about the little things with animals and the fact you've posted that makes me so happy for you and him. YOU GET IT NOW!!!

notlongleft

awwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhh

gavmcg92

We all know how you feel dev The part of my day I always look forward to is coming home from college. I get a great welcome home from millie followed by her swinging her tug toy up onto my lap

Mark Tapley

Op congratulations on your new addition . I was wondering would you reconsider the crate idea. I think they are a development in dog training that we can do without.

Whispered

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Op congratulations on your new addition . I was wondering would you reconsider the crate idea. I think they are a development in dog training that we can do without.

We could do without most training aids, but why do without when they're available?

tk123

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Op congratulations on your new addition . I was wondering would you reconsider the crate idea. I think they are a development in dog training that we can do without.

Are you basing this on a bad experience using a crate or misunderstanding of what a crate is/is for? ...ie it's a safe place that the dog willingly wants to be in and not a jail?

DeVore

What I'm trying to do with the crate is constrain him from chewing everything in the morning before I get up... I've started him off by putting him in it over night but leaving the door open and he is very happy with that so far. I'm introducing the idea that he is locked in slowly with treats to reassure him. He doesnt like that but I'm afraid like, a child, sometimes he has to accept things he might not like. Its important for us both to find a balance but what I'm realising is that I'm the only one of the two of us seeking that balance. Josh would rather he got everything his own way and was never separated from me but thats not sustainable long term. So, as much as I dont like him being distressed, its ultimately for his own good if we are to remain a pair.

Whispered

DeVore wrote: »

What I'm trying to do with the crate is constrain him from chewing everything in the morning before I get up... I've started him off by putting him in it over night but leaving the door open and he is very happy with that so far. I'm introducing the idea that he is locked in slowly with treats to reassure him. He doesnt like that but I'm afraid like, a child, sometimes he has to accept things he might not like. Its important for us both to find a balance but what I'm realising is that I'm the only one of the two of us seeking that balance. Josh would rather he got everything his own way and was never separated from me but thats not sustainable long term. So, as much as I dont like him being distressed, its ultimately for his own good if we are to remain a pair.

Just like a child really.

The best way I found to get them used to being locked into it is a long tiring walk on an empty stomach, then when you come home give him a stuffed kong in his locked crate. He should be tired and hungry enough to not even notice that he's closed it. If you can stay in the room with him for now it will make it even easier for him. I'd keep the kong as a crate treat only for now, so no kong when he's relaxing with you on the couch in the evenings

Hooked

tk123 wrote: »

Are you basing this on a bad experience using a crate or misunderstanding of what a crate is/is for? ...ie it's a safe place that the dog willingly wants to be in and not a jail?

I'm very much on the pro side of crate training I have to say. Even as I type this (I'm home on lunch), Hugo is eating his dinner in his open crate and when he's done, he'll happily wait to be called out for training and playtime.

As it was woeful out - and his crate is just inside the back door, he just hops in where I can dry him off before being left to roam the house downstairs.

When guests arrive or the doorbell rings, crate. When we eat (table is beside crate), off he goes without even being asked. Kept outdoors during the day, sleeps in his crate from 11.30pm-7am and never a sound. Better than being outdoors all night in this weather!

But the biggest positive, and it was unplanned and not foreseen - was his 10 day recovery after an undescended testicle had to be removed. Say he wasn't crate trained and had to have all that confined, down-time... In a small space so as not to damage stitches etc... Whatever would I have done? He'd have had no idea what was happening.

While its not for everyone - a well crate trained dog - can be the perfect solution.

And how could I forget... Toilet training!!! 2 accidents in 2 years. Once I fed too late as a pup, the other was the runs - poor dog. Toilet training trumps the post op positive.

Crate training all the way for us!

Whispered

Hooked wrote: »

Crate training all the way for us!

Another huge plus for us - when we go to visit people, I can bring my boys and their crates and I know they will settle. Anywhere. I can even bring them somewhere, settle and crate them, then go out for a while, and I know they won't be distressed because they are in their "bedroom".

tk123

Yeah crate training ftw for us too - not that we had a choice because he had 2 operations and needed to be restricted for 6 weeks both times.

Dev one thing that sticks out to me is that your saying Josh's terms all the time - don't confuse terms with pace. There are some things you just can't rush with a dog IMO - especially one with anxiety issues.

Back to crate training I started by feeding with Kongs in the crate leaving it open for a few days, then closing it while he ate and gradually building up how long after he was finished the door was left closed.

DeVore

I have to admit I do realise how incredibly lucky I am with Josh. I mean, yeah he jumps around all the time and slams the backdoor (and he's no showing any signs of giving that up any time soon im afraid), but he has been toilet trained from day 1 and doesnt bark the house down and is taking to his crate well, is great with kids, doesnt snap, is very loyal and is generally a good dog who is just a bit madly energetic!
From the stories here, its clear how much worse it could have been. I dunno if I would have been able for that to be honest!

His crate is about to get an exit to the backyard through a dogflap (I checked the insurance and they are cool with it.) so hopefully that will improve matters too.

He IS really childlike, he will go mad if he doesnt get his way and then be distracted by something else and wander off and then later remember he wants into the house or up on my lap (not allowed!) and will whine again like he will DIE without it. Emotionally manipulative bastard so he is!

nemo32

DeVore wrote: »

What I'm trying to do with the crate is constrain him from chewing everything in the morning before I get up... I've started him off by putting him in it over night but leaving the door open and he is very happy with that so far. I'm introducing the idea that he is locked in slowly with treats to reassure him. He doesnt like that but I'm afraid like, a child, sometimes he has to accept things he might not like. Its important for us both to find a balance but what I'm realising is that I'm the only one of the two of us seeking that balance. Josh would rather he got everything his own way and was never separated from me but thats not sustainable long term. So, as much as I dont like him being distressed, its ultimately for his own good if we are to remain a pair.

Completely the same situation for our guy, he needs to learn to be in his crate with the door closed. He has no problem at night with the door closed so I know it's a case of just being a drama king if he gives out when we close the door when we are downstairs or it's just no bedtime. He comes around eventually and clams down but it can take some time in some cases and that's even after the slowly slowly approch to crate training. Always try and do it when he's tired and give him treats/kongs to keep him content. Best of luck!

Mark Tapley

tk123 wrote: »

Are you basing this on a bad experience using a crate or misunderstanding of what a crate is/is for? ...ie it's a safe place that the dog willingly wants to be in and not a jail?

I was trying to be diplomatic, what I really meant was- OP please don't lock your new friend in a crate.

Whispered

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I was trying to be diplomatic, what I really meant was- OP please don't lock your new friend in a crate.

It suits most dogs if correctly introduced and trained.

kylith

Whispered wrote: »

It suits most dogs if correctly introduced and trained.

Mine are only crated from travelling, but you can't keep them out of the crates once they see them. Can't even put the fecking things together because the dogs keep sitting on them.

Hooked

Whispered wrote: »

Another huge plus for us - when we go to visit people, I can bring my boys and their crates and I know they will settle. Anywhere. I can even bring them somewhere, settle and crate them, then go out for a while, and I know they won't be distressed because they are in their "bedroom".

Jaysus I forgot all about holidays on my post above. And I don't mean crates for travelling... I changed the car for that!!! Bmw touring - just for the dog!!!

We have a metal crate and a fabric one for camping/holidays/self catering/hotel stays.

Crate training really is the business.

tk123

Our main crate is actually a car crate. I got it when he was on crate rest first time round so we could move him to the kitchen if we were going to be in there for a while and wanted to keep an eye on him etc. He seemed to prefer it to the old bed so it's been there ever since!

Here he is evening with our own Josh from Ikea lol! ... (The top of the crate isn't usually that messy!;))

Hooked

While we're sharing photos, here's Hugo's 'room'. Just inside the French doors was this alcove beside what used to be a fireplace - that was just inch perfect.



I built the unit above it for his water, food, various leads, harnesses, backpacks, etc... Tis handy to have his towels and blankets and everything else all in the one place - and as I earlier said - as its just inside the backdoor and adjacent to the dinner table, tis perfect for cleaning him off, feeding, etc...

And he was just chilling there after our walk tonight - so it's a place of his own away from us to chill out as much as anything else.

Mark Tapley

Dog dens are great . When you lock the door it becomes a cage . If that cage stays locked for extended periods you are not being fair to your pet. When does the training end and the door stay open? Presumably you have trained your dogs to go to the toilet outside and not eat the furniture. Why would the dog still need to be locked up at night?

Whispered

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Dog dens are great . When you lock the door it becomes a cage

As far as the dog is concerned it's still his den. Providing he is correctly introduced to it.

Mark Tapley wrote: »

If that cage stays locked for extended periods you are not being fair to your pet.

You can say the same about absolutely every part of owing a dog. You allow him out to go to the toilet, but when does it stop being a toilet trip and becomes the dog being locked outside for extended periods.

You restrict your dogs diet, when does it stop being restricted for his own good and becomes overly restricted?

You decided how much and what form of exercise your dog has. When does it stop being what the dog wants and needs, and becomes too much/ not enough?

Mark Tapley wrote: »

When does the training end and the door stay open? Presumably you have trained your dogs to go to the toilet outside and not eat the furniture. Why would the dog still need to be locked up at night?

Most people don't continue to use the crate simply because they want to confine the dog at night. Reasons I still sometimes close the door include

I have a muddy back garden, during the day I line the floor of the crate with towels and lock them in for ten mins when they come to dry off.

When I sweep the floor the little fella likes to dance in the dirt :rolleyes:

It's a fantastic aid when you have guests. Both have a very good "stay" but with some guests no matter how much you ask them not to encourage the dogs to jump up, they do. The closed door prevents this.

If they have raw meaty bones, I can leave them alone with them without worrying about arguments.

When we travel it keeps them safe, both in the car and in the new environment.

It's good practise to continue closing the door at times, in case you ever need to lock them in overnight (visiting elsewhere, in case of illness etc).

When I use bleach on the floor it keeps them safely off it until it dries.

They usually sleep on the couch, but if I am in the process of cleaning them, it keeps them off while the cleaner acts overnight.

I assume if you have a dog you have him trained to walk well on the lead? If so, when does that training end? I'm sure it doesn't, it's something which makes sense to continue for the lifetime of the dog.

Most people who do not like crate training, have images of dogs locked up all day or night, sort of stored away for when their owner wants to spend time with them. The vast majority of people who crate train their dogs do so after research, they care enough to learn how to use a crate, they're not likely to be the type to leave the dog lock up for too long. If they were they type to do so, they'd be as likely to do the same by locking the dog out the back all day and night.

Hooked

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Dog dens are great . When you lock the door it becomes a cage. Why would the dog still need to be locked up at night?

Why would it be open at night? He's asleep. Wrecked after a long day, 2 huge walks and plenty of games and training.

My crate is only locked at night. Or in extreme cases, like a visitor who's terrified of dogs, post op rest, when I'm hoovering or doing something using chemicals or won't risk his safety over.

He has the yard and garden all day with an outdoor kennel. Alone for no longer than 3-4 hours max. Crate training is not caging. It's part of responsible dog ownership and training - in my case anyway.

Sure he's out there now fast asleep... When I've a fire going in here. He likes his 'space'.

Mark Tapley

@ Whispered - I would say that Crate training is a misnomer, the only thing your dog learns is patience and good bladder control.
As to comparing confining your dog to other aspects of dog ownership
I think you have to use your best judgement as I'm sure you feel you are.
The examples you mention of when you use the crate are mostly common to a lot of dog owners , many of whom manage without a crate.
You are right dog training is continuous , but with lead training or recall I have some sort of aim in mind. Crate training seems to avoid situations where you might correct your dogs behaviour .
You assume I have a dog ? You thanked a picture of her the other day.
Its clear from your posts that you care for your pets but I don't think we would ever agree about crates .

@ Hooked It sounds like your dog has a great time . Again the crate thing , I could never agree with a dog being caged all night tired or not

I am going to bow out of this thread as I think I have sent it off on a tangent. Good luck DeVore and Josh

DeVore

Thanks, I appreciate all comment. Topics of interest can always be spun off into their own thread, we havent run out of electrons just yet

One thing I *have* learned from the last 8 weeks is that people are very passionate about their pets and I can understand why better now. They also have wildly differing opinions as to what is true and what is good. I've asked dozens of dog owners their opinions and read up extensively on the topic now... in some ways I know Kung Fu compared to before but in other ways I feel no better off as I've often read wildly differing opinions which directly contradict each other.

The realisation I've come to is that Josh and I just need to find a way that we can both live with. As my friend put it to me when I was having a melt down about things "Do you think Josh is better off than he was if you had left him in the pound". And obviously the answer is yes. He would most likely be dead now.

Is he enjoying himself? Absolutely, he spends the vast majority of the day wagging his tail and get rubs and pets and food and walks and treats and snoozes. So, maybe things arent perfect, maybe my back yard could be bigger or I could walk him longer or not have to crate him to preserve my stuff .... but the world isnt perfect and no one plays a flawless game either.

Even to my untrained eye, this dog has gone from being a barrel of nerves, tense, stressed and wild, to having a complex personality and a naughty confidence I could probably live without

Josh wants to be out of his crate when my mother calls by? Well I want a Porsche but we dont all get what we want. He gets more than he needs and in the end is a very happy dog.

I'll take that as a win and get up tomorrow and start all over again.

Whispered

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I am going to bow out of this thread as I think I have sent it off on a tangent. Good luck DeVore and Josh

In that case I will not respond other than to suggest/ask you start a thread on the topic. I think it could be very interesting to get more in depth into the motivations behind using a crate (or indeed any non-aversive training aid).

gavmcg92

I can understand why people use crates. I have never had the need though nor have I ever wanted to get a crate. I sort of like my dog being able to get up in the middle of the night, if he wishes.
We are kinda getting off topic so I wont add any more fuel to the fire

Would love to see some more pictures of Josh DeV.

DeVore

Josh is fast becoming my favourite photography subject... I will get some more done soon, including his crate!

This is technically an awful photo but it puts a smile on my face all the time


Josh's smile by devoresphotos, on Flickr

Pabmac

He's beautiful, I love his eyes It's great to see a photo of him. I've just started to follow this thread and it's lovely to see Josh !

DeVore

Here's four more from the archives then...:) (click to enlarge)

The first is what I came home to after making the rookie error of buying him a lovely soft cushion to sleep on. I look back at myself and laugh.

Who? Moi?! by devoresphotos, on Flickr


I also bought an expensive blanket which Josh loves so much he bit several holes in within the hour. Now he likes to stick his head in through them and thinks its hilarious fun.


I MADE A HOLE!! LOL by devoresphotos, on Flickr


This is him looking all dignified and majestic. Its not a common look for him

Joshua by devoresphotos, on Flickr

This last one is him looking, as my teenage godchild called him, "Totes adorbs!". Yeah, like butter wouldnt melt in his mouth...

Hello you! by devoresphotos, on Flickr