So, I'm back to getting a dog...

DBB

DeVore wrote: »

The moment he goes to jump up, (or put his paws up so he can have a good look/sniff around), I always snap a "No!" at him. He's certainly learning that its not on as he now stops himself occasionally,

Great! But you might find that putting a physical measure in place, as well as deliberately "setting up" sessions, will really speed the process up.

The second thing is that the moment he sees me seeing him on the table, he rockets off it and under it. Its not that I initiate the chase, he knows whats coming and he's pretty clearly know why (at any other time he rockets towards me and looks for rubs) so I have a suspicion he knows full well he's not to be up there.

It's a different dynamic to him *knowing* he should not be up there. Dogs probably don't have this level of consciousness.
What he does know, is that when he's on the table, when DeV walks in, DeV tends to do that angry thing. And when DeV does that angry thing, it's time to get outta there.
But knowing that you get angry when you walk in whilst he's on the table does not translate to the dog concluding that if he hadn't got up on the table in the first place, you wouldn't be mad... do you see what I mean? They are no good at drawing conclusions about something that's happening now versus what they did a few moments ago.
Rocketing off the table, and hiding under it, is probably a pretty good way to avoid being caught and put outside, which he has come to learn as the consequence when you walk into the room whilst he happens to be on the table, probably when you have *that look* on your face, or *that tone* in your voice!
I just wanted to really drive home the point that he's not doing any of this stuff on purpose, or deliberately: he is the product of his learning environment, both before you got him, and since you got him. But I think it's important to know that this is not deliberate "I'm trying to p!ss DeV off" behaviour, because that'll hopefully help you to see things from his perspective and not get angry with him.
When you're training a dog, it is soooo much better to set up the environment so that the dog isn't set up to make mistakes, and that you're maximising the chances of good behaviour. Set up well, a well-managed environment should put you and him in a situation where having to give out to him at all is a rarity It's called "error-free learning" in the trade!
Good luck: it's such early days yet!

DeVore

So I promised some pictures of Joshua... he has lovely markings and the most fun ears ever

I think my favourite is the last one



Joshua by devoresphotos, on Flickr



JoshuaTree by devoresphotos, on Flickr




markyourtime by devoresphotos, on Flickr

fred funk }{

He's a beauty Dev. He reminds me of my beagle with his long legs but I think Joshua looks more like a Foxhound to me.

They're hard work in the beginning and and will drive you crazy at times but its well worth it. I laughed reading this thread because my dog (Luke) did all the things your dog is doing.

Here's a few shots of Luke.

Dunny

Beautiful dogs fred and Dev!

DeVore

Is a mile and a half to two miles enough of a walk for him? (that distance is what I walk, Josh goes back and forwards and around so much its more for him!)

Zulu

DeVore wrote: »

Is a mile and a half to two miles enough of a walk for him? (that distance is what I walk, Josh goes back and forwards and around so much its more for him!)

Don't think in terms of distance, think in terms of time.
I walk Chloe for 1 hour per day. In the summer that's mostly off lead, but sadly in the winter it's on lead (and its not enough in the winter really).

I'd suggest upping it to an hour a day.

DeVore

Ok, I measured it (with google maps ). Its exactly a 2 mile walk and it takes pretty much an hour given the amount of stops and diversions we take. I took him for a much longer walk during the week and he was knackered (as was I, we got lost in the estates!).

So, thats ok then I guess.

Raminahobbin

Every time I check this thread, I'm expecting to see a post from DeVore saying 'Unfortunately lads, it didn't work out...he was too mental for me and he's gone back to the pound'

Every time I check and you're updating us with news or seem to want to tackle a problem and not give up on it, it does my heart good Thanks for not doing what a lot of people do with pound pups and only give it a few nights before throwing in the towel- I'm slowly believing Josh has his forever home with you

DeVore

Don't think there havent been times hahaha.... No, if it ever didnt work out, he'll get some nice family in the countryside with a load of fields.

Tbh, the problems arent with Josh, they're with me ... I need to be ok with freezing my ass off at 9am on the green and picking up poo etc. The only thing he needs is to chill out a bit when I leave the kitchen and go upstairs. He's going to go through the window soon.

From the moment I saw this dog in the pound he was like "you, you, I dont care, whoever you are, I JUST WANT OUT!!!" and he's been absolutely stuck to me since. Last two nights weve started a little training. He's already got sit from before he arrived with me but last night we practised Go to bed, Lie down and Belly rub! I'll tell you about them another time
But it was quite amazing how fast he picked it up. Like, 10 tries and he had it (especially when there is a treat on the line!).

I'm a bit fried because its a lot of work but I kicked this off and its not his fault he's a dog

Raminahobbin

Yep, there's always times where I think all of us want to throttle our furry loved ones, but you're hanging in there The thing a lot of people aren't prepared for is how much of a lifestyle change having a dog is- it's pointless expecting the dog to fit your current routine exactly. There's a lot of give and take, restrictions, redefining routines and starting from scratch. It's not like having a hamster, where you can put it back in it's cage and ignore it- dog's are (or should be) members of the family, with similar demands on your time!

Tis all a learning curve, and you'll both adapt- early days yet. Just regarding the leaving the room and going upstairs bit, it's probably because in his previous life he was allowed free reign. Slowly but surely the separation anxiety needs to be undone, and I'm pretty sure these steps are the recommended steps towards achieving this. The last bit can be built on by closing the door for brief periods and building it up.

Learning to spend time alone

You can help the dog learn to be comfortable away from you. This process will help teach the dog that it is ok to be left alone! It must be done slowly, paying careful attention to the dog’s behavior. The dog must not display anxiety at anytime throughout the progression. This exercise can be performed during times when you are relaxed and sitting down for a period of time such as watching television or reading a book. Perform these exercises during commercials or in between chapters.

It is important to NEVER TELL THE DOG TO STAY! You want the dog to decide to stay on his own. Once the dog ignores each activity then you may proceed to the next activity. Each activity may take several days or even weeks.

- When a commercial comes on simply stand up. If the dog gets up with you sit back down. Continue standing up and sitting down until the dog ignores your activity or the commercial is over.
- Stand up and take ONE step away from the dog and chair. Return and sit back down. Do this until the dog ignores you.
- Continue this process until you can walk all the way around your chair without the dog getting up.
- Once the dog ignores your laps around the chair then start moving around the room.
- Now step out of the room (ONE STEP) and immediately back in. Once the dog accepts your disappearance without response you can begin to increase the length of time you are out of sight. Do this slowly and gradually.

Hounds are smart dogs- he'll pick everything up quickly once it's communicated properly

DeVore

The problem is that I dont have that sort of time for Josh to come to understand that like Arnie... "i'll be back". I have things to do in my life too, I work for myself so sometimes I have to go into town for a few hours and he has to be left alone. (Sorry Josh, but those blankets dont buy themselves...).

Here's the thing though... in the morning, he's mental. Very distressed and whiny and crazy for attention. Theres a paw print on the back door thats at LEAST 8 foot off the ground. Now admittedly he's getting a little more "half hearted" about the leaps but he's clearly not happy.

In the evening though, he'll haul his ass over, check that I'm just going upstairs, and then walk around in a circle once and go back to his bed.

My approach to all of this has been to give a stern "No!" to the parkcour and otherwise simply come and go as I need to. I do make efforts (I move my laptop downstairs when I can, and that keeps him more sedate) but Josh has to meet me half way and realise, he's got a HUGE shed to himself, a warm bed in it, a dog flap and a big garden during the day and a bed in the kitchen at night. Up to now I've given him a lot of TLC and leeway because he was clearly stressed after the pound (I've noticed his coat isnt shedding even a tenth of what it was in the first two days) .... but now Mr Joshua has to learn that he's not the boss and he will live if he's left alone for a few (2-4) hours.


Today was a hard day, freezing cold walk this morning, I got a lovely headbutt putting on his leash because he was going mental and then he snapped at me when I stopped him chewing he brand new vet-bed which led to all out civil war (which I won!). I'm tired and stressed and worn out with him but it does get easier every day so I'm just hoping that that continues.

I bought a phermone collar to try to chill him out a bit so we'll see if that works. I'm changing his dry dog food on advice of a vets nurse , from Purina (which she said was great but quite high protein) to James Wellbeloved which might suit him better. The next question is neutering and shots but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

LucyBliss

Of course you have to leave the house! I get the same attitude from my three when I get my bag and put on my coat. It's instant "OMG WE WILL DIE OF NEGLECT DO YOU NOT SEE HOW DEJECTED WE LOOK EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND THE HOUSE ALL MORNING AND WALKED US AND WE HAVE BEEN BEEN GIVEN LOTS OF ATTENTION BUT YOU ARE GOING AAAWWAYYY!"

What worked for us was the settle down routine. I make them go into their beds - sometimes this takes a few minutes when one of them is trying to delay my leaving by going upstairs to hide under my bed - and sit down and wait. Then I give them all a quick rub and tell them they're good and that it's bedtime now and I won't be long.
One afternoon, a cousin looked at me and said, "we're going to the movies, we'll be a while". I instantly hissed "Shush! They don't have to know that!"
So there's that.

It might take a bit of time for Josh to fully get it but if you do it everytime, he will pick it up. It should leave him in a more relaxed state about your leaving, even if he's not too happy that you're going. I have three dogs and one would be very high energy but he was the first to cop on to what I was doing and he goes to bed as soon as he's told. The second one doesn't much care so long as she gets the bed she likes best. The third one is the one who nearly loses her life when I leave but she goes to bed and waits there as I go out.

Or you might find a routine that better works for you and Josh. But routine is key. And the more it happens, the more he'll realise what's going on and that it's not a bad thing. He's still just adjusting to the newness and the fact that he has a home.

Oh, just to add: I got very tired and stressed when I was dealing with our high energy dog, Jack, at the start. So much so that one day I told my mother "TAKE HIM FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BEFORE I GO CRAZY!!" I mean, I love that dog to bits but there were days when I thought he was going to break my brain. Hang in there, it does get better. Because Jack has a lot more cop on now and a lot more settled.

Stheno

DeVore wrote: »

Ok, I measured it (with google maps ). Its exactly a 2 mile walk and it takes pretty much an hour given the amount of stops and diversions we take. I took him for a much longer walk during the week and he was knackered (as was I, we got lost in the estates!).

So, thats ok then I guess.

How old is he DeV? Rule of thumb for bigger breeds if five minutes per month of age if they are still pups, and he's still fairly young, so I'd reckon no more than an hour, preferable split up into two walks if you can manage it?

DeVore wrote: »

The problem is that I dont have that sort of time for Josh to come to understand that like Arnie... "i'll be back". I have things to do in my life too, I work for myself so sometimes I have to go into town for a few hours and he has to be left alone. (Sorry Josh, but those blankets dont buy themselves...).

Here's the thing though... in the morning, he's mental. Very distressed and whiny and crazy for attention. Theres a paw print on the back door thats at LEAST 8 foot off the ground. Now admittedly he's getting a little more "half hearted" about the leaps but he's clearly not happy.

In the evening though, he'll haul his ass over, check that I'm just going upstairs, and then walk around in a circle once and go back to his bed.

My approach to all of this has been to give a stern "No!" to the parkcour and otherwise simply come and go as I need to. I do make efforts (I move my laptop downstairs when I can, and that keeps him more sedate) but Josh has to meet me half way and realise, he's got a HUGE shed to himself, a warm bed in it, a dog flap and a big garden during the day and a bed in the kitchen at night. Up to now I've given him a lot of TLC and leeway because he was clearly stressed after the pound (I've noticed his coat isnt shedding even a tenth of what it was in the first two days) .... but now Mr Joshua has to learn that he's not the boss and he will live if he's left alone for a few (2-4) hours.


Today was a hard day, freezing cold walk this morning, I got a lovely headbutt putting on his leash because he was going mental and then he snapped at me when I stopped him chewing he brand new vet-bed which led to all out civil war (which I won!). I'm tired and stressed and worn out with him but it does get easier every day so I'm just hoping that that continues.

I bought a phermone collar to try to chill him out a bit so we'll see if that works. I'm changing his dry dog food on advice of a vets nurse , from Purina (which she said was great but quite high protein) to James Wellbeloved which might suit him better. The next question is neutering and shots but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

I'm going to be a bit stern here, but time and time again, you've been advised to think about a crate, heck some nice poster even offered you dibs on a crate, and you seem to be a bit mulish about it.

Think of it like your bed, don't you like doing there? Don't you feel safe and secure and cuddle up with your duvet and pillows? Set up nicely that's just what a crate feels like to a dog, it's that ultimate Sunday sleep in place, but the little blighters get to have one all of the time, I'd one dog who lived in their crate (with the door open) except for food, walks and the odd begrudging trip to the garden.

Sounds to me like Josh is crying out for that sort of security, somewhere he feels safe, that never changes, that is comfy, a bit confined, secure, and has no real distractions.

What's up that you've ignored it? Remind you of the pound? Sound cruel?

DeVore

Ngggggh,..... I had a really big post written out and then closed the browser!! grrrrr

short version: not ignoring crate idea, but have a whole shed with bed and insulation for him out the back. I'm going to try to get him to use it and then he can sleep inside.

The crate would take a lot of room in my kitchen and he wouldnt get into it if locked in, he wont even go outside at the moment if I dont step out with him. Now, I could still train him, but I'd rather he was outside most of the time and got used to his shed as home and slept inside otherwise. I'm going to see how that goes but if there is an issue, I'll go with a crate. I'm certainly not ungrateful for the offers or the advice but its just a question of finding a way for us all to live together as best possible.

I put a phermone/calming collar on him and it seems to have done wonders as this morning he wasnt nearly as manic. Unfortunately I didnt let him out very late last night and slept in a bit this morning and we had a little accident, but hopefully it was just a once off. Good reminder for me to remember at night.
He's been great otherwise.

The chewing seems now to mostly be restricted to things he's supposed to chew (though he's going mad to chew the vet-bed stuff... I've sprayed it with anti-chew spray which seems to work). But the chewing has definitely died down and is much more restricted to bones and toys. Some of that is because there simply isnt much left for him to chew in the kitchen.

Jumping on the counter still happens but much less frequently too. I've been very consistent around that and it seems to help.

So, so far apart from being exhausted and a bit fried shouting NO! all the time, the training is going well and he's chilling out *a bit*... so we'll see if we can make the current situation work.

notlongleft

how is Josh doing? miss the daily update.

DeVore

Well thats very kind of you to say!

Josh is doing great, but the realities of dog-ownership are beginning to sink into Tom. Josh is very high maintenance at the moment but it IS getting easier as we both get used to each other.

In the evening he is "totes adorbs!!" as my 15 year old niece says. He's calm, loving, (sleepy!) and easy going. In the morning he's soooo anxious its kinda distressing. By 9.30 if I'm not down, he whines a lot. When I come down he's obviously distressed, wagging his tale furiously, hopping for foot to foot, running around in a circle, whining a bit and jumping around happy too.

I think the time of year I've done this at isnt helping me. My kitchen now looks like a mud-wrestling bar on a saturday night. Its freezing my nads off walking him in the morning and every pair of boots and trousers I use with him are destroyed. I've given myself a sore throat from firmly saying No! to a million things but he's trying his best and he is tending not to do the things I command him not to.

Right now I am training him that its ok to be outside, so after some play in the morning and breakfast, we go for a walk and then he gets put outside so Daddy-DeV can get some work done. He doesnt like this at all and sits and whines at me (I sit downstairs so he sees I havent gone anywhere.... I figured one thing at a time). This is only the 3rd day of it but he seems to be calmer about it. Still whining a bit but not jumping on the window like a parcour maniac.

Then about 5 he comes in for good and gets dinner and generally goes to sleep for a nap. The rest of the evening is spent between gnawing on a juicy bone (which he loves!) or napping while I use the computer.

The adjustment for me has been almost as stressful as for Josh... I'm knackered from the walks and the constant attention he demands, as well as the stress of worrying if he's getting himself into trouble or destroying something new


Next up is: The Vet.... I havent decided to doctor him or not, but he needs shots anyway. I'll definitely be trying to do that in the evening when he's calmer!

tk123

For walking just wear waterproof bottoms over trousers/leggings to save on laundry - especially this time of year with it so mucky everywhere. Also it allows for them/other dogs jumping up or rubbing off you! For shoes water proof hiking shoes/boots - if you can hold out until after xmas the likes of amazon/javari (always compare the prices even though they're the same place) will have a sale on so you can stock up!

kylith

I'm curious about what he does if he's outside while you work and he can't see you. Mine will whinge if they're outside and they know I'm in, but if they think I'm not home there's not a sound out of them.

DeVore

He whinges if he can see me but he barks if he cant (or he sees me leave). The barking continues for several minutes up to 30 minutes as far as I can tell but he does stop after a while.

Tomorrow I will see what he does as I'm going to put him out for a few hours and then work upstairs. He has great hearing though so he can hear a pin drop and knows I'm about sometimes.

notlongleft

sounds like hard work at the minute but he will get better still very early days yet. Thanks for the updates enjoying hearing about your experiences. iI would defo get him 'doctored' might calm him down a bit as well.

DeVore

End of a long day... one thing i hadnt considered was what to do if i get sick... like i am today. smothered with a head cold (probably from all the walks in the cold in the mornings!).

Thankfully Josh was pretty well behaved today and didnt cause too much of a fuss, got him and me fed, watered and walked and then went back to bed and quite surprisingly, so did he. Later he chewed an old pair of headphones and a wine-bottle-bag to make up for being good.
He also nicked my jumper and took off down the garden with it... but it was heading to the wash anyway.

Still he is slowly (very slowly) calming down and while he really gets anxious if he's separated from me for any length of time, he does seem to be settling down.

Lets see what tomorrow brings...

DeVore

So, this morning started off badly and pretty much got worse. I was in the full throes of a cold and his nibs wanted to play. Walked and fed we played in the garden and then I went to go upstairs, and he seized the opportunity to jump up on the newly washed counters. This has been a tactic where he never jumps up on them when I'm around and but when I leave (and he watches me all the way up the stairs...) he's straight up on them. So, out he went and he wasnt happy about it, but neither was I and I went back to bed while he barked the neighborhood down.

He spent much of the day jumping off the windows and going bananas whenever anyone came in and I had a few visitors today. I got the floors washed because they'd turned into mud fields and at least that much done. I went back to bed to fee sorry for myself again and he barked on and off. As usual this evening he's placid and calm and mostly a good dog.

Being sick on your own with an energetic dog is no fun at all.


I bought him an Extreme Chew Toy... which he killed in like, 5 minutes flat. He's drgaging it around the kitchen now, like a trophy.

DeVore

ps: how much time a day do you guys spend interacting with your dog... (combined interaction between all family members). Josh seems to get "antsy" very quickly if I dont play with him quite often. Ideally from his point of view I would never STOP playing with him it seems, but I have things to do so I want to get an idea of whats a "reasonable" periodicity of "play"...

tk123

It's crate time tbh

barbiegirl

If you don't like crates check out playpens as one could work out too. It isn't easy when you're sick, tired or stressed, especially when he's so young and your relationship is so new. If it helps I find I get sick a lot less because I'm out and about so much in all weathers.
I'm down myself after an operation but thankfully a neighbour is walking them for me every day. You will get to know other dog owners and you will find that you will begin swooping favours :-)

borderlinemeath

barbiegirl wrote: »

If you don't like crates check out playpens as one could work out too. It isn't easy when you're sick, tired or stressed, especially when he's so young and your relationship is so new. If it helps I find I get sick a lot less because I'm out and about so much in all weathers.
I'm down myself after an operation but thankfully a neighbour is walking them for me every day. You will get to know other dog owners and you will find that you will begin swooping favours :-)

If Josh is capable of jumping on the kitchen counters, it's safe to say he would vault out of a playpen.

Dev I know you said before that there wasn't much room in the kitchen for a crate but they collapse flat and store very easily. I've acclimatised a good few dogs to crates and they are so so beneficial. Not only do you relax in the knowledge that your dog is safe (and your belongings are intact) but once you get Josh used to the crate he will view it as somewhere safe for him to retreat to, both when you are present and absent.

Outkast_IRE

You did a great thing.

Stay strong, it does get easier.
Young dogs are like young kids full of energy during the day and then crash in the evening.

The seperation issues are obvious to see, and with a rescue dog time is key........ i have found after a while the dog will realise your not abandoning him every time you leave.

What i do find useful is to reserve favourite toys/bones for this time when hes getting put out on his own, the way i work it is, my dog loves tennis balls if there is a period of time when nobody is there for hours i reserve the tennis ball for this time and give it to her when she is going out the back on her own. She is so happy to be getting the ball she doesnt care that she is going out the back on her own.

maybe something similar could work for you , perhaps only give the bone when hes being put out the back on his own , he may associate being put out the back with the treat and not see it as a negative instantly.

planetX

DeVore wrote: »

Being sick on your own with an energetic dog is no fun at all.

I'm with you there, nothing worse than being sick and lying on the couch trying to throw toys to tire out your bored dog.... for hours. Helps if you have something like a bone, or pigs ear to occupy him for a while.
One day you'll miss all this youthful enthusiasm;)

kylith

Such is life with a dog, even when you're sick they still have to be walked and fed.

If I were you I'd get someone in to advise on what to do about the separation anxiety. It really is just a matter of teaching him that when you leave you'll come back.

Is there room in your garden for a sandpit? It might entertain him for a while if you could bury a Kong stuffed with something deliciously smelly so that he has to find it, and then it'll take him a while to empty it. I sometimes just throw a fistful of food into my garden, and the girls get to spend half an hour or so searching for it, and all that sniffing and searching is great for tiring them out mentally.

Wibbs

DeVore wrote: »

ps: how much time a day do you guys spend interacting with your dog... (combined interaction between all family members). Josh seems to get "antsy" very quickly if I dont play with him quite often. Ideally from his point of view I would never STOP playing with him it seems, but I have things to do so I want to get an idea of whats a "reasonable" periodicity of "play"...

The trick I've found is to have them interact with you and on your terms D rather than the other way around. So you make the decision when interaction happens, not him. It's easy to get into the he sets the time and you respond. God I know, I've done it. It's hard to resist them and their social brain is very good at making sure you don't.

So how did I do it? Well for a start I'd change the times of walks(and change routes and distance) and playing. Even change up when I'd wake up/go to bed, mix up mealtimes, treats etc. That way he was kept guessing, which he seemed to respond too. If he came to me outside that time all hyper, I'd largely ignore it until he chilled out and it took a while but he did. I control access to his toys too. They're essentially "mine" and I choose when we play with them. IME and MH dogs are bloody good at telling the time and getting into a routine. If they get into a set one then at times when you're sick or whatever they can go ape when that routine is changed.

I bought him an Extreme Chew Toy... which he killed in like, 5 minutes flat. He's drgaging it around the kitchen now, like a trophy.

yea I found them equally useless. I found bones from the butcher a much better bet. Plenty of blood and gore keeps them enthralled for ages. You can get prepacked ones in Tesco and the like too, though the butchers is cheaper, often free if they know you.

tk123 wrote: »

It's crate time tbh

Oh sure a crate can be a great aid TK, but they're not always practical for all. There's also a touch of the current meme to them IMHO. I've raised a good few dogs and all but one were crateless and they were fine after a while. My current guy is the first I've used a crate with and it helped, but TBH if had the time again I'd be 50/50 on getting it. For me anyway it wasn't that much of a benefit. There's also the danger IMHO again that the crate can be used in a lazy way, by sticking the dog in one for convenience sake, even with the best of intentions frustration can come up. Again MHO and again YMMV.