Michael Carrick

Pro. F

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Allen has been awful all season unless you're referring to him at Swansea?

No he has not.

Eli Manning wrote: »

Speaking of M'Vila he's just been banned from the NT for 2 years!

Yeah, for a night out in a club. Sounds like a crazy punishment.

Shanotheslayer

Pro. F wrote: »

No he has not.

Well every time I see him he's giving the ball away and get muscled off it. So we must be watching two different Allens

Corholio

Pro. F wrote: »

No he has not.



Yeah, for a night out in a club. Sounds like a crazy punishment.

For more than that, been a few incidents with him.

Pro. F

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Well every time I see him he's giving the ball away and get muscled off it. So we must be watching two different Allens

Yeah that must be it.

Corholio wrote: »

For more than that, been a few incidents with him.

But has he really done much wrong with the French team? From what I remember it is mostly just been storms in tea cups. I'm open to correction on that because I'm interested to know.

Giggsy11

Good player, with him United team looks more balanced. He is the only CM at United who has is good defensively.

From past 2-3 season his role has changed completely. He sits lot deeper now and play short passes, before that he played expansive game and some of his passes over the defense (Usually for Ronaldo) were just class.

Our most reliable CM (in terms of fitness, playing many games in short span) and with him team looks better.

He has been found out against top opposition when they pressed high up the pitch, but most of those games were either 3 vs 2 in the midfield or midfield of Carrick with Giggs/Scholes and some winger. You can't pass the ball (When pressed) if your players stand still and offers 0 movement. He doesn't have Messiesque or Iniesta like skills on the ball to dribble past 4-5 players. He has his weaknesses but gets lot of undeserved stick.

We can get better player than him but no way he is just an average player. He is good player and to back it up one of the greatest manager played him in the team regualrly. If it was 1 or 2 seasons it might be coincidence or poor choice, but when he was one of the key player for 6 seasons he is doing something right that a common man or Internet blogger can't see and qualified coaches can.

p.s before anyone attacks with yeah Fergie knows best bs, No that's not what I posted.

p.p.s: Pro F, please dont quote this post. We have done this several times and we know where we stand on this topic. :pac:

DM_7

Carrick is selfless, vital to United and talented player.

Good at protecting the area on front of the box in a defensive role and very good at interceptions.

I don't think he is comfortable when the opposition break on United.

I think he is a rounded player that has adapted his game to do what his manager asked.

gets unfair grief over his ability in possession. Its said he is weak when pressed, that true but needs the context as pointed out above. Its normally a 3 v 2 situation with no passing options in a dull rigid set up in attack. He is also normally in a deep position where he can't afford to take a risk on the ball because he has no back up if he makes any sort of error. (i'm not saying he is good in that situation either, just that the expectations are a bit much considering the circumstances)

He doesn't use his passing range as much as he used to, or get forward as he is focused on the main job the manager asks of him.

I think he is a talented player but hargreaves was well ahead of him when he was fit, so I can see why people have doubts and say better is out there.

ThunbergsAreGo

I like Carrick, good player, he should start for england

SlickRic

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Well every time I see him he's giving the ball away and get muscled off it. So we must be watching two different Allens

which was against Chelsea only i take it?

anyway, the Carrick conundrum is quite simple.

like Lucas at Liverpool, he's had to adapt his natural game to suit what the manager wants him to do.

his contribution is vital in a Premier League winning team in terms of keeping the ball ticking over against lower level teams when Utd are pressurising, and he really only gets noticed when he's not there. but he does normally get found out when up against teams who stand up to Utd and press them.

are there better out there? yes.

does Carrick deserve the level of stick he gets? hell no.

Francie Barrett

For such a useless player, he's managed to win 4 Premier League titles and a Champions League medal in the 6 seasons he has been at United.

SantryRed

Francie Barrett wrote: »

For such a useless player, he's managed to win 4 Premier League titles and a Champions League medal in the 6 seasons he has been at United.

Djimi Traore won a Champions League medal.

Those type of arguments are stupid tbh.

Wolf Club

I find it difficult to form an opinion on players like Carrick. I don't support Utd and wouldn't watch full Utd games every week, and I think this is necessary in order to realize what players like Carrick contribute. Obviously he must be doing something right, seeing as though he was part of the starting line up for so much of Utd's success, even if his play doesn't involve a huge amount of killer passes or crunching tackles. It's a bit like Gilberto Silva when he was at Arsenal, many complained that he contributed nothing despite their successes with him in the team.

T-K-O

Wolf Club wrote: »

I find it difficult to form an opinion on players like Carrick. I don't support Utd and wouldn't watch full Utd games every week, and I think this is necessary in order to realize what players like Carrick contribute. Obviously he must be doing something right, seeing as though he was part of the starting line up for so much of Utd's success, even if his play doesn't involve a huge amount of killer passes or crunching tackles. It's a bit like Gilberto Silva when he was at Arsenal, many complained that he contributed nothing despite their successes with him in the team.

with all due respect this is nothing like Silva. Giberto was similar to Makele, Lucas, Masherano sitting in front breaking everything up. These players are noticed by their absence.

When Carrick is not there he's not missed

Wolf Club

T-K-O wrote: »

with all due respect this is nothing like Silva. Giberto was similar to Makele, Lucas, Masherano sitting in front breaking everything up. These players are noticed by their absence.

When Carrick is not there he's not missed

But Silva didn't do as much tacking as those other players you've mentioned, and I think that's why so many people were dismissive of him. His game was based on a more subtle approach.

I get your point though, I wasn't trying to compare them as players but more so saying they are both players that divide opinion hugely and require in depth examination in order to determine their contribution to the game.

SlickRic

SantryRed wrote: »

Djimi Traore won a Champions League medal

that man is a fúcking legend i'll have you know.

i will hear no ill of Djimi "He Just Can't Control His Feet" Traoré.

T-K-O

Wolf Club wrote: »

But Silva didn't do as much tacking as those other players you've mentioned, and I think that's why so many people were dismissive of him. His game was based on a more subtle approach.

I get your point though, I wasn't trying to compare them as players but more so saying they are both players that divide opinion hugely and require in depth examination in order to determine their contribution to the game.

Arsenal did not function without Silva, Utd on the other are very capable without Carrick.

Of course Carrick is a decent player, however he is not worth double figures and he is defiantly not good enough for a club like Man Yoo

Wolf Club

T-K-O wrote: »

Arsenal did not function without Silva

I'd say Edu and Mathieu Flamini might have an argument to make with you there

Giggsy11

T-K-O wrote: »

with all due respect this is nothing like Silva. Giberto was similar to Makele, Lucas, Masherano sitting in front breaking everything up. These players are noticed by their absence.

When Carrick is not there he's not missed

Not really. We are fluent with Anderson and Cleverley midfield pair but team lack balance and defensively all over the place.

T-K-O

Wolf Club wrote: »

I'd say Edu and Mathieu Flamini might have an argument to make with you there

As I remember it Edu and Flamini had one great season with Arsenal and ran off to Europe never to be heard of again.

Leaving Silva the only DM at the club

T-K-O

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Not really. We are fluent with Anderson and Cleverley midfield pair but team lack balance and defensively all over the place.

I agree utd lack that balance but Carrick doesn't provide it

Blatter

SantryRed wrote: »

Djimi Traore won a Champions League medal.

Those type of arguments are stupid tbh.

Tbf, a player winning a one off competition like that is a lot different to a player that has been a regular in a team winning numerous league titles and appearing in three CL finals, winning one.

I'm not saying it proves anything either way, but it definitely counts for something and it'd be silly to dismiss it.

Esse85

Silva added a few vital goals to his game as well, has almost 100 caps for Brazil.

Carrick is ordinary.

Giggsy11

Esse85 wrote: »

Silva added a few vital goals to his game as well, has almost 100 caps for Brazil.

Carrick is ordinary.

Robbie Fowler - 26 caps
Andy Cole - 15 caps

Crouch - 42 caps
Heskey 62 caps

Think first 2 are ordinary and the latter 2 are special talents.

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

p.p.s: Pro F, please dont quote this post. We have done this several times and we know where we stand on this topic. :pac:

I'm only going to quote one bit.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

but when he was one of the key player for 6 seasons he is doing something right that a common man or Internet blogger can't see and qualified coaches can.

p.s before anyone attacks with yeah Fergie knows best bs, No that's not what I posted.

Of course you are saying that Fergie knows best. That is exactly what you are saying.

But moreover, if you really believed that it was beyond the ken of mere fans then you would think that you don't understand it either. It looks like you think that you do understand what's special about Carrick.

Fergie is well capable of making mistakes. As proven by his persistence with Evra and the fact that we have only one established defensively reliable CM at the club. When a team with one of the biggest budgets in the world, probably the best man motivator in football history and some of the best forwards, defenders and goalies in the game goes and wins some trophies that is hardly surprising. It is also easily conceivable that all that could be achieved while having some weaknesses in the team.

DM-ICE wrote: »

gets unfair grief over his ability in possession. Its said he is weak when pressed, that true but needs the context as pointed out above. Its normally a 3 v 2 situation with no passing options in a dull rigid set up in attack.

That is completely untrue. United in Europe have played with either a packed midfield or, more often, with Rooney in the hole behind the CF. And when Rooney is playing in the hole he provides more movement, passing options and defensive cover than any (supposedly deeper lying) ACM out there.

Saying that the attack is dull and rigid is also incorrect. Nani, Young, Park (when he was at the club), Rooney, Welbeck, Evra, Rafael, Fabio, all have excellent off the ball movement and ability to link up with other players. The rigidity of the attack comes from the problems in central midfield.


Now the one thing that I'll agree with slightly is that Scholes' movement hasn't been great these last few years. But he has still been a phenomenally skilled CM who has been more than capable of taking opposition players out of the game with his god-like close control and passing. He has provided a constant outball for Carrick, receiving it under all sorts of pressure and still making use of it. He has been anything other than a hindrance, he has actually been the one player of the two who has consistently gotten the ball forward when under pressure and so makes space for others and opens up the opposition.

And then what about when Carrick is paired with Anderson, Cleverley or Fletcher, none of whom are lacking in movement. He still struggles in the exact same way.

DM-ICE wrote: »

He is also normally in a deep position where he can't afford to take a risk on the ball because he has no back up if he makes any sort of error. (i'm not saying he is good in that situation either, just that the expectations are a bit much considering the circumstances)

That's what a CM's job is. It is essential they can take the ball under pressure from the opposition, turn on it and pick out a forward pass. All good CMs do it, even when they are just in front of their back four. It is dangerous and there is no room for error, that's why they have to have such excellent first touch and close control. Keane used to do it, Scholes still does, Busquets does it, Alonso, Khedira, Ramires, Allen, Schweinsteiger, Britton, Las Diarra, Toure, etc, etc. This still gets called ''keeping it simple'' because the actual pass they end up making is simple, but being able to do it when pressed is what makes them good. Carrick on the other hand can't do it. He doesn't have the skill.

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm only going to quote one bit.



Of course you are saying that Fergie knows best. That is exactly what you are saying.

But moreover, if you really believed that it was beyond the ken of mere fans then you would think that you don't understand it either. It looks like you think that you do understand what's special about Carrick.

Fergie is well capable of making mistakes. As proven by his persistence with Evra and the fact that we have only one established defensively reliable CM at the club. When a team with one of the biggest budgets in the world, probably the best man motivator in football history and some of the best forwards, defenders and goalies in the game goes and wins some trophies that is hardly surprising. It is also easily conceivable that all that could be achieved while having some weaknesses in the team.
.

First part: BIG NO. I said we can get better players than him but no way he is just an average player.
Second part: He is getting back to his old form.

Pro. F

T-K-O wrote: »

When Carrick is not there he's not missed

The defensive side to Carrick's game is definitely missed when he is out. But that's not because his defending is exceptional. It's because Fergie hasn't established any other CM who can be relied on defensively in the squad.

I have a hope that Powell or Tunnicliffe can provide that option, but Fergie is showing little interest in introducing them yet.

I know Powell is more known for his ability going forward, but imo he looks very good defending as well. So I think there is a chance he could develop into an all round CM.

Esse85

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Robbie Fowler - 26 caps
Andy Cole - 15 caps

Crouch - 42 caps
Heskey 62 caps

Think first 2 are ordinary and the latter 2 are special talents.

Stupid point.

To get almost 100 caps for a Brazil side is a fantastic achievement.

To get half that for England is meh.

Giggsy11

Esse85 wrote: »

Stupid point.

To get almost 100 caps for a Brazil side is a fantastic achievement.

To get half that for England is meh.

Just to show average players can get around 60 international caps too.

BTW, this is not to say Silva was average player, he was superb, just that international caps is not the stick to beat Carrick. There are many more but international caps isn't one. Especially for England.

jonnyfingers

We've all heard the central midfield of a team referred to as the engine of the team. Well Carrick is like the timing belt. He doesn't do anything amazing, just keeps everything ticking over. When everything is working you don't even notice him. But when he's missing things tend to fall apart a little.

Having watched many many full games where Carrick has played it's obvious that he has two main jobs within the Unitied team.

The first is to provide an outlet for an easy pass, be that from defense or usually from his midfield partners. For example when Carrick and Scholes play together they are rarely more than 10 feet apart. Scholes will take ownership of the ball and will dictate the play. When a forward pass isn't available, or if he ever gets into trouble in possession, Carrick pops up and provides an option for an easy pass. The result is possession is kept an the attack continues. Carrick is also excellent in possession and has a great touch. He's a player who always looks in control and never seems to rush. He's not in the same class as Scholes but he's still very very good.

Carrick's second job is a defensive one, and is to break up the play before the attacking team gets to the defense. He is extremely good at this but it often goes unnoticed. Numerous times in a game he'll block a pass with an interception or a poke tackle or block. This isn't as obvious and sliding in and winning the ball, or tracking a player for 50 yards. He just simply gets in the way and wins the ball back. His ability to read the game is excellent and I don't think he gets any credit for that. His positioning in a midfield position is top notch most of the time.

Both of these roles are essential to the United team ticking over and I don't think anyone else in the United squad is as good as Carrick at it.

From time to time he'll also play some great passes and can nick a goal if he's near the box, although that's rare enough.

So, is Carrick an amazing player that can change a game? No.

Is he a very good player that knows exactly his role in a successful United team. Yes.

And that's good enough for me, and I'd imagine most of the United fanbase.

The_Kew_Tour

The problem for me is the 2 CL Finals against Barcelona he was destroyed.

They still stick in my head and I know there has been many a decent player destroyed by Xavi and co but its hard to forget and ignore.

He is a big player for United and have great time for him, but he should not be our main CM. We rely bit too much on him at times.

jonnyfingers

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

He is a big player for United and have great time for him, but he should not be our main CM. We rely bit too much on him at times.

He's an excellent player for us but I've always thought since Keane left we've tried to replace him with two players, rather than with a single player who could do it all. I think that's mostly down to how good he was. But I always get the feeling that Carrick at his best only does half the job Keane does. We need another midfielder to compliment him.

The problem there is that both players have to play well in games like the ones against Barcelona to have any chance. If either falls down the whole midfield is a shambles.

But as for the question of this thread, is Carrick useless? Far from it.

But he's also not the best player in the world in his position and I'm still waiting for the day when a Keano clone emerges!

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

First part: BIG NO. I said we can get better players than him but no way he is just an average player.

The "what's special about Carrick" that I was referring to was your idea of the things that make him more than average and how those things are beyond the understanding of football fans. I don't buy it.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Second part: He is getting back to his old form.

Whether that is true or not, and I personally doubt it is, it doesn't change the point. Fergie kept playing Evra, and never even got a proper back-up, all through the seasons when he was a defensive liability.

The_Kew_Tour

jonnyfingers wrote: »

But as for the question of this thread, is Carrick useless? Far from it.

But he's also not the best player in the world in his position and I'm still waiting for the day when a Keano clone emerges!

I agree. To say he maybe not world class is fair enough, but to say he is useless would be lol worthy.

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

The "what's special about Carrick" that I was referring to was your idea of the things that make him more than average and how those things are beyond the understanding of football fans. I don't buy it.

Fair enough you don't it but that's how I feel. People who work with him every day knows better than the internet bloggers (everyone included if by chance if you are thinking I'm excluding myself). We never even tried to sell him that shows SAF rates him very highly. Yes SAF makes mistakes, so can you which has higher probability than SAF about Carrick IMHO.

Whether that is true or not, and I personally doubt it is, it doesn't change the point. Fergie kept playing Evra, and never even got a proper back-up, all through the seasons when he was a defensive liability.

Before this season and last we had O'Shea who played many games as LB, last season we had Fabio (yes he was injured a lot), we had Evans who is capable of playing if necessary. I agree not buying a back up was a mistake but maybe he didn't because of Fabio?

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Fair enough you don't it but that's how I feel. People who work with him every day knows better than the internet bloggers (everyone included if by chance if you are thinking I'm excluding myself). We never even tried to sell him that shows SAF rates him very highly. Yes SAF makes mistakes, so can you which has higher probability than SAF about Carrick IMHO.

Right we'll agree to disagree on that.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Before this season and last we had O'Shea who played many games as LB, last season we had Fabio (yes he was injured a lot), we had Evans who is capable of playing if necessary. I agree not buying a back up was a mistake but maybe he didn't because of Fabio?

It's been a very long time since JOS played any significant number of games at LB. Evans only ever played one or two iirc.

Maybe Fergie was waiting for Fabio to come through, but whatever was going on he kept the situation as it was when Fabio wasn't ready/fit and Evra was a shambles. Fergie had a big fat weakness in the team at LB with Evra starting, and the team was still doing ok and even winning. So it goes some way to disprove the theory that if United were winning things then any regular player must have been more than average.

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

Right we'll agree to disagree on that.



It's been a very long time since JOS played any significant number of games at LB. Evans only ever played one or two iirc.

Maybe Fergie was waiting for Fabio to come through, but whatever was going on he kept the situation as it was when Fabio wasn't ready/fit and Evra was a shambles. Fergie had a big fat weakness in the team at LB with Evra starting, and the team was still doing ok and even winning. So it goes some way to disprove the theory that if United were winning things then any regular player must have been more than average.

Fabio played in the CL finals, so it was not about not being ready it was about fitness.

Re bold part, everyone knows Evra was world class player and was awesome till 2010, so maybe Fergie believed Evra could be back to his best and that's the reason he was played (and tbh you always exaggerated Evra's mistakes every single time) on the other hand if like you said Carrick is no more than average then I doubt any manager would have played him regularly for 6 years.

stooge

He's a decent short passer of the ball and is useful enough against poor/medium standard teams. However, he gets found out against physical and better class teams. My main gripe with him is his inability to tackle or win a header. He closes down space but closes down too slowly and without urgency. This was shown clearly against Barca twice. Looking back, the money spent on him could have been better spent.

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Fabio played in the CL finals, so it was not about not being ready it was about fitness.

Fúck sake man, whether it was readiness or fitness that was the issue is not important.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Re bold part, everyone knows Evra was world class player and was awesome till 2010, so maybe Fergie believed Evra could be back to his best and that's the reason he was played (and tbh you always exaggerated Evra's mistakes every single time) on the other hand if like you said Carrick is no more than average then I doubt any manager would have played him regularly for 6 years.

I don't exaggerate Evra's mistakes. It is no exaggeration to say that he has been woeful defensively. And Fergie has played him constantly during that time. Whatever Fergie's motivation, it proves that a Fergie team can have a serious weakness and still do well.

It shouldn't even need proving, it is obvious that a team with 9 or 10 world class players and a great coach could carry one or two weaker players and still achieve success. Stop wasting my time by arguing against something that is so obviuos.

TheDoc

A fella put it best earlier in the thread.

A thankless role that goes un-noticed, until a blunder happens and he's a scapegoat.

He brings calm and composure, needing a goal in the final 5 minutes, or three nil up , he is just always calm, he takes, he looks, he knocks it on.

He just makes me calm watching him, you don't get energised, you don't get frustrated, its just real " aaaaaaaaahhhhhh"

Wouldn't call him world class, but being in a team, a main starter in a team, with 4 PL titles, 1 CL and 2 other finals, its hard for anyone to call him pish.

If he wasn't doing a job, and doing it well, he would have been found out by now

Giggsy11

Pro. F wrote: »

Stop wasting my time by arguing against something that is so obviuos.

Giggsy11 wrote: »

p.p.s: Pro F, please dont quote this post. We have done this several times and we know where we stand on this topic. :pac:

FFS...

Pro. F

Giggsy11 wrote: »

FFS...

Go and write a blog if you don't want your views challenged.

Corholio

TheDoc wrote: »

A fella put it best earlier in the thread.

A thankless role that goes un-noticed, until a blunder happens and he's a scapegoat.

He brings calm and composure, needing a goal in the final 5 minutes, or three nil up , he is just always calm, he takes, he looks, he knocks it on.

He just makes me calm watching him, you don't get energised, you don't get frustrated, its just real " aaaaaaaaahhhhhh"

Wouldn't call him world class, but being in a team, a main starter in a team, with 4 PL titles, 1 CL and 2 other finals, its hard for anyone to call him pish.

If he wasn't doing a job, and doing it well, he would have been found out by now

Calm and composure is great when you have time and space, but when it needs to be done quicker against better team he has been found out. Would never call him pish or anything like that, but he's certainly not world class. I think the fact that people keep saying he's a starter says a little more about United's midfield over the past few seasons than it does about the brilliance of Carrick. Also if a blunder happens and he's involved, why wouldn't you blame him? why would anyone blame him if he had nothing to do with it? Scapegoat thing gets thrown around way too much in defence of players.

SantryRed

TheDoc wrote: »

If he wasn't doing a job, and doing it well, he would have been found out by now

He's been found out constantly against better teams!!!