Irish Spring

Francis Murtagh

The Irish Spring - Rise up and say no to this bank debt.
Dear People of Ireland
Our banks went bust and our Government saddles us with their 64,000,000,000 euro debt. That’s a lot of cash which will be taken from you and me, on a dept which does not belong to you.
The upcoming budget will take 3,000,000 Euros from your pocket to pay interest on a loan which you never took out.
This loan belongs to the Banks; they took out the Loans, not you. Hello! This bank shackle is being placed on the necks of every man, women and child in this country. We are being sold into slavery. For a loan which is not ours. Full stop.
And the Banks are gaining possession of our homes, our lands, and our businesses and shops.. Can you not see it happening?
And foreign financial vultures are swooping in to clean up the best of these properties.
Time to say,
NO, NO, NO.
The spiritual, emotional and financial implications of this yoke on our necks are enormous. We are all effected, some more than others, some driven to suicide, it is
Time to say,
NO,NO NO.
WE are a tiny nation on the edge of the Atlantic which has being oppressed for generations. We fought and paid a huge price for our independence. Brother killed brother in a horrific civil war. For what?
For this?
Our elected representatives are grovelling their way to Europe and particularly to Germany, begging, begging begging. Like a puppy dog our Taoiseach is more interested in getting a pat on the head than standing firm and refusing to accept this Bank Yoke which is being put on the necks of the people he is supposed to be representing...Our Taoiseach and Finance ministers are only puppets of the Troika. That is clearly seen today.
WE HAVE HAD PROMISE AFTER PROMISE FROM THESE BODIES THAT IRELAND WOULD BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY...
We have no patience left for their lies.
Time to say,
NO, NO, NO.
Our Bankers are still engaged in a feeding frenzy on your money, your taxes. They lavish on themselves salaries and pensions and bonuses of 500,000 Euros and more and treat us with absolute contempt in the process. They have no sense of morality, no sense of having done anything wrong, their thinking has become futile and their foolish hearts have become darkened and hardened. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity.
Most of our politicians are just as greedy, especially the last lot who drove off with your money.

Meanwhile What Has Happened To Us?
Why are You taking all of this lying down?
Do you feel like I do that there is nothing I can do about It.? We are like a people drugged and anaesthetised, waiting to be operated upon on the table of super powers , economists, financiers, accountants, bankers and politicians who care nothing for the plight of the poor of this country. And I include the middle class as part of the new poor.
Sure proof of this fact was clearly seen last week when the head of the Bank of Ireland, Richie Boucher, strutted his way into the offices of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. This is a body representing you in the Dáil. These are your elected representatives, this is YOU, who was treated with the highest level of contempt and insult, as that Banker refused to answer any of YOUR questions in an open and honest way. This is a Bank that received a good part of that 64,000,000,000 euro bailout. This is arrogance at its highest...
The Banks are Private Foreign Companies who have no interest in the plight of the Irish People. Their aim is to make a profit for their shareholders. Wake up People. I have no problem with a company making profits, but I have a huge problem when private companies such as called AIB and Bank Of Ireland (so called pillar banks), Permanent TSP and Anglo Bank have being bailed out by the Irish People, by you. And in return what do these banks do? They put the yoke of this loan on you and strip you naked in the process. They treat our Government with utter contempt. And their decision making will impact every man woman and child for generations. These Banks which received massive loans of 64,000,000,000 Euros from the Troika, and our Government, are now saddling us with this loan and Richie Boucher sneers at the Irish people in the process. He showed his real card, he showed what the banks are really about. And Mr Noonan continues to protest that he can do nothing about this, even though the Irish People in principal own both AIB, Anglo and Permanent Tsp!
It is time for us all wake up to what the banks are about. They are private companies and they are nor answerable to the state. Mr Boucher proved that! We have been sold a pup. We are actually bailing out a private company owned by shareholders whose sole mission is to make massive profits. At our expense.
So it is time to say NO,NO,NO To this unjust Yoke being put on our necks. It is not ours. Say no to your hard earned money being extracted from you and given to these banks. Don’t be fooled with AIB either.
So what can we do?
Don’t say “a sur what can I do”... I have been saying that too...but no more...
Because if you do not do something now, and i do not do something now, we can never again complain about the Budget, the Troika, the Government, your local TD...the weather, whatever.
If you and I do not do something now, we are saying in effect, that we are willing to allow the Troika, our Government and the Banks to put a yoke of 64 Billion Euros over our necks and lead us into slavery for at least 30 years. They will lead you and I into another Van Demons land, like lambs to the slaughter.
To accept this, lying down, is a sure sign of madness, Hello?
We make excuse after excuse, the greatest being that we say this is too big, we are all saying “what can i do”, we all feel exactly the same, we feel powerless...we cannot overcome this monster. I believe together we can slay this monster.
And some of us may fear that we could be kicked out of Europe if we push this too far. Europe will never kick us out as they have a loan of 64,000,000,000 out on us. Why? If we were to default on that 64,000,000,000 euro bank loan then we would pull Europe down as well. I don’t want either to happen but I for one, am no longer willing to make any repayments on a loan which is not mine.
Are you?
It is time to call their bluff.
I am sorry if this offends...But this is the choice we have. I am simply willing to be the vehicle through which you can empower yourself and your community and regain you voice, because you matter!
It’s Simple.
It Starts with You.
And this will end with you.
So who are you?
Are you unemployed? Do you know there are 450,000 of you out there? Can you give to this cause by giving of yourself? You are affected by this too. Your dignity will be restored as you join us in the march for freedom. And jobs will be created for you again in this country, and not in Australia. Will 450,000 of you be willing to march?
Can you use your spare time to join with me in this worthy cause?
Are you disabled...Please join me so that together we can protect your interests as the Government is about to sacrifice you to pay the Banks...To make cuts in basic essencial services...and Why? To pay back a Bank loan which is not yours.!
Are you on the breadline? Join me and together we will insist that you are treated with dignity and that money will be available to increase your standard of living.
Are you a Pensioner? The Government will cut your allowances and cut your travel passes. Why? They want to extract your savings to help pay the interest on a 64,000,000,000 loan which you did not take out... After all your years of service, this is what our Government is agreeing to. Join us and together let us say.
NO ,NO ,NO.
To unjust taxes.
Are you a householder suffering from negative equity and facing increased taxes to pay for this 64,000,000,000 euro loan for the rest of your lives.? This is madness. Then join me and let us march together and say
No more, No More, No More
Are you a patient or will you be a patient in any outpatient or general hospital? Do you know there will be massive cuts to the Health budget in the next budget? Do you know that hospitals will close? Do you know that Waterford hospital may close? Do you know that essential services for the elderly and disabled will be axed! And what are all these cuts for?
To pay interest and capital on a 64,000,000,000 euro loan the banks took for themselves. This loan is not yours.
Now is the window of opportunity to shout aloud before the Budget is introduced.
Now is the time to be Patriotic.
We need a new Easter raising...a Peaceful Rising,
The Irish Spring.
I am calling on the Unemployed, Professionals, Business leaders, Musicians, Trade Unionists, Students, Medical staff, Civil servants, Mothers and Fathers and their Children , Farmers ( bring your tractors ), all Employees in all Companies, Service industries, Executives of Multinationals, Executives of Irish Companies, Airlines, Computer, Transport, Media, (Please bring your cameras etc), Teachers, Gardai, Army, Nurses, Lawyers, Judges, Priests, Cardinals, Bishops, Pastors Ministers...( This is a time to protect your flocks !), TDs ( after all you are supposed to be representing your people), People to represent the sick, the Disabled, those suffering from Addictions, the Homeless, Prisoners, the Marginalised of Society, Charity organisations, Sporting Organisations such GAA, IFA, IRFU, Athletics, Boxing, Racing, Cricket, and all other sporting bodies, Public bodies, Bank Staff, And please forgive me if I have left out any group...
WE should easily muster a million people from this list.
Please come.
. I am calling on Irish people from all over the globe to be a part of this initiative. There are 70 million of Irish decent scattered all over the globe. Let this appeal go to each one of these. Contact them through this appeal through Facebook, Twitter and all other social media communication. Get their support. Get them on board. Would they be willing to muster support in your country??
Let this go worldwide. Finally use all your computer skills and contacts and let this appeal go out all over the country and all over the world. Let it go Viral.... (I am just about computer literate.)
Let’s have marches on the same day in every city where the Irish live.
Let this be a real Paddies Day, a rising of the Irish to say.
“No to this Bank Dept”
We need to send the strongest possible signal to our Government and to Europe that we have had enough.
So let us all unite under one banner, a banner of peace which simply says No To This Bank dept.

So Here is the Plan
Meet at 2 pm next Saturday week November 24th and wherever you are March on the Dáil.
(Of course the Dáil will be empty.)..
This first march is a public peaceful expression of our anger at the way we are being treated. I would suggest we meet at O Connell Bridge at 2 Pm.
Bring your whistles and drums, musical instruments and bodhráns.
Support one another as you walk. You will be encouraged by those you walk with and they will encouraged by you. A sense of empowerment will happen as you walk. A great sense of Unity will begin enfold. A Sense of Love will flow again. The sense of greed will be put to flight.
So Please,

1. Make up banners and placards describing who you are and the reason for your protest.

2. Shout “No No No” to this Loan being put on our backs.

3. If you cannot march, then make up simple petitions in your workplaces, using this document as a template, and forward to me at my address. This will be used to lobby our cause. Where, Everywhere. In shops, factories, hospitals, nursing homes, hse, everywhere two or three are gathered, dole offices, revenue offices, churches. Let’s make these official legal documents that cannot be sneered at. Please get involved in your community to make this a resounding success. Could you organise local marches if you cannot travel to the Dáil. March on your local County Councils and Corporations and make your voice heard. Organise buses to travel to Dublin...maybe your local bus companies could organise free travel to the Dail. Come on, let’s go for this.

4. Be Creative! Artists and Poets and Musicians, let’s hear from you...Let’s go for this. Bono, how about a free concert? Christy Moore, how about a special song that speaks of this...This is a great opportunity for us all to give, to give back to the people of Ireland who have made this nation great. This is our nation. Together we can restore the heart that is in the Irish Nation. WE will take back our dignity and break the yoke over our people.

5. Continue to March until this simple request is accepted... We will review matters after each march...Until we see our Government go to Europe and demand this Dept be removed from our backs.

6. If the Troika refuses to listen to our Government then we will take the fight to the mainland. We will make contacts with the oppressed peoples of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and all other people oppressed and shackled by these unfair and unjust taxes. We will together march on the financial powers of the Troika...We will take the protest to the Financial and Political Centre of Europe. Let’s aim for a peaceful march of one million people! A spring rising from nothing high up in the mountains in Ireland but meeting together to form a mighty river...Descending on the Troika.

So what will this accomplish? Victory!

1. Firstly as we March for this Country, It will give our elected representatives a powerful mandate to go to the Troika and say NO NO NO to their plan to enslave the Irish people for the next 40 years.
2. If our elected representatives will not listen to us the people of Ireland, then we will insist on a General Election and replace them with people who will truly represent the people. We can easily do this by approaching our local TDs and insisting that they listen to us and support us. Let them each hold up a placard stating which constituency they represent in our march. They will see the thousands of ordinary people saying that they have had enough. They will see and read the million or so of signed petitions insisting this yoke be taken off the backs of the Irish people. This is democracy at work. Those TDs will have no option but to vote against their Party...And the Government will fall. We have tremendous power if we work together.
3. If the Troika does not listen to us then we the newly elected members of Government will simply refuse to make any repayments on the Loan. It is not the Peoples Loan. Let the so called experts of the Troika solve this problem in a just and equitable way. And lay the blame firmly where it belongs...on the Bankers, Developers, Bondholders and NOT ON US. We refuse to pay. It is not our dept. We can do this.
4. We will succeed. This Plan will work. Recent history shows that peaceful demonstration works. We just need the masses to turn out and speak as one voice.
5. And the Economy will grow again once this yoke is removed from the backs of our people. Business will flourish, tax revenue will increase, families will be restored, and jobs will be created in all areas of the economy. The Spirit of our nation will be revived. That is what will happen. This is worth marching for.
So please join me from next Saturday Week, November 24 Th November, from 2pm and March on Dáil Eireann . Meet at O Connell Bridge at 2PM
I will have a yoke on my shoulders which will simply read
64,000,000,000 Euros
This bank debt does not belong to the Irish People.

This March is very important as it will enable you who have no voice, to have a voice.

Finally this Series of Demonstrations must be Peaceful and there is no place for any individuals or any organisations who would like to use this mass demonstration as a means of using violence to attack the State or further their end towards anarchy. We submit to the Governing authorities. We are a totally Democratic body of people. We depend on the Gardai to work with us to manage this movement. We will work with them. We are known as the best soccer supporters in the world. Let’s build on that to reach our goal of breaking the yoke of this bank dept and releasing the captives to go free.

Who am I?
I am an ordinary citizen who is totally fed up and angry with how we are being treated. Everything I have written reflects who I am. I consider myself to be a Christian and that motivates me to fight against this unjust bank Loan and the serious effects it is having on people.
My name is Francis Murtagh and I have no political allegiance with any party. I have never attended any political meeting. I do vote at every election and I vote depending on what a Party or individual stands for. I voted for Fine Gael in the last election and I voted for John McGuinness in Kilkenny as I liked the things they were saying, and what they stood for. I am now totally disillusioned as I feel this Government have let the country down. I have no confidence that Enda Kenny has the bottle to stand up to Angela Merkel. That lady reminds me too much of Margaret Thatcher.
So I want us all to stand up and say NO, NO, NO to this 64,000.000.000 euro loan. Simple.
<snip>
Like most people in this country, I have had enough...

I have not consulted with anyone except my family before sending this out. There is no organisation in place. This is beginning with me. But this is not about me, this is all about you. I have heard so many people saying what “can we do”, and I have decided to put my neck on the block to a least provide a platform where the voice of the people will be heard. This is risky and dangerous...Many will say I am mad. But I believe that like minded people who have the same vision will come to serve this cause and will come along side me to see this vision accomplished.
I am not an extremist. I am only known by my family and a small circle of friends.

Let this be the Irish Spring.
And together we will be a powerful force to bring change in this land.
Francis Murtagh.
<snip>
At least I will have tried

Francis Murtagh

Id be very grateful for any feedback on this good or bad.

Cookie_Monster

what do you propose as the alternate, demand the money back from the banks, have them all collapse, add another 30,000 directly to the dole and probably 100,000 more indirectly along with a total meltdown of the economy and all your private bank lodged funds either disappearing or having to be paid out by the government by borrowing hundreds of millions more?

NIMAN

Can you give us a quick summary of how you expect the country to function with no money?

How will we pay the Gaurds, the doctors and nurses, the teachers, and all the other civil servants?

What do we do about all those thousands in this country who have to pay back money they willingly took from the banks to buy houses and now they can't afford to repay?

AlmightyCushion

Love all this "tell the banks to fúck off and let them fail" nonsense that gets spouted. Ulster Bank's systems went tits up for a few weeks and it caused anarchy, imagine what would happen if the whole banking system collapsed.

NIMAN

Think Francis sounds like some of our ULA folk, who are anti-everything but have no answers when asked about what exactly they would do in the real world.

I'm wondering did he even sit and type that in, or is it a cut and paste job from some other anti-everything website?

Francis Murtagh

To the first reply I would say that obviously this loan can not be paid back by the banks immediately but over enough time that wont cripple the banks, I think it should be their responsibility to pay back not ours.

To the second reply I would say that the banks should pass on the bailout they have received to the people and offer them debt forgiveness.With this loan off our backs the economy will be stimulated which will pay the Civil servants you mentioned.

AlmightyCushion

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

To the second reply I would say that the banks should pass on the bailout they have received to the people and offer them debt forgiveness.With this loan off our backs the economy will be stimulated which will pay the Civil servants you mentioned.

Well you're more than a little biased seeing as you are in serious debt issues. If the banks did decide to do a big round of debt forgiveness then they would need another bailout from the taxpayer. Obviously, they will write off or write down some bad debts over time, this is to be expected, but a far reaching debt forgiveness programme will mean more taxpayer money being pumped into the banks again.

professore

Well at least he stuck his neck out there. I don't agree with all his points, but I too feel something must be done, and he definitely has a point how the bankers got rewarded for bankrupting the country.

Francis Murtagh

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Well you're more than a little biased seeing as you are in serious debt issues. If the banks did decide to do a big round of debt forgiveness then they would need another bailout from the taxpayer. Obviously, they will write off or write down some bad debts over time, this is to be expected, but a far reaching debt forgiveness programme will mean more taxpayer money being pumped into the banks again.

The banks have already made provisions for a level of debt forgiveness and have received loans to cover this,they are simply not passing this on to the same degree that they have recieved.That is why so many people are in difficulty.My own bank manager confirmed this.Also this is not about my own personal situation I just decided to be open and straight with you all.

AlmightyCushion

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

The banks have already made provisions for a level of debt forgiveness and have received loans to cover this,they are simply not passing this on to the same degree that they have.That is why so many people are in difficulty.My own bank manager confirmed this.Also this is not about my own personal situation I just decided to be open and straight with you all.

Yes, the stress tests performed took into account a certain level of debt write downs/offs/defaults and they have writen down some debt, there have been stories about it in the news. If they do this for everyone then they will need a lot more money from the government.

Francis Murtagh

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

The banks have already made provisions for a level of debt forgiveness and have received loans to cover this,they are simply not passing this on to the same degree that they have recieved.That is why so many people are in difficulty.My own bank manager confirmed this.Also this is not about my own personal situation I just decided to be open and straight with you all.

Key word being a level. There cannot be widespread debt forgiveness on any level as it will require more state money. As for the stuff on the budget, we spend more than we take in tax, simple. Bank debt is insignificant in comparison to our expenditure problems.

Francis Murtagh

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Yes, the stress tests performed took into account a certain level of debt write downs/offs/defaults and they have writen down some debt, there have been stories about it in the news. If they do this for everyone then they will need a lot more money from the government.

Firstly i'll say they have not passed on the debt forgiveness they have received to all stressed homeowner loans.The banks received a total of 64 Billion which was to be passed on.The fact is it has not been passed on and not only that but they are hoarding this cash and they are not loaning it out to cash starved businesses.The economy is therefore starved and is stagnant as a result.
On your last point id say they got the money for every stressed loan and so I dont think they would need more.

Bullseye1

They already got billions to set against debt forgiveness. They are dragging their feet and have been warned numerous times by the Financial Regulator, The Chairman of the Central Bank and by the Department of finance.

We have given them the money and they have told us to **** off.

The money could have been used to start a new banking system.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Well you're more than a little biased seeing as you are in serious debt issues. If the banks did decide to do a big round of debt forgiveness then they would need another bailout from the taxpayer. Obviously, they will write off or write down some bad debts over time, this is to be expected, but a far reaching debt forgiveness programme will mean more taxpayer money being pumped into the banks again.

washman3

Excellent post Francis. As you can already see the main opposition are ourselves. many people have been completely and utterly brainwashed into believing T.I.N.A (there is no alternative)
Expect many attacks here from the various vested interests and government apologists who scan these forums, in an organised manner, for topics like this with the prime motive being to ridicule the poster.
Good luck with your brave campaign.

Francis Murtagh

Jocelyn Obnoxious Stepladder wrote: »

Key word being a level. There cannot be widespread debt forgiveness on any level as it will require more state money. As for the stuff on the budget, we spend more than we take in tax, simple. Bank debt is insignificant in comparison to our expenditure problems.

The Government income is low because people are not spending which is another fallout of the bank's failure to give out loans.Also, people area afraid to spend because of the fear of further taxation caused directly by these same bank loans.There needs to be tight reins on expenditure,my comments on bankers and politicians pensions and salaries is the tip of the iceberg.

AlmightyCushion

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

Firstly i'll say they have not passed on the debt forgiveness they have received to all stressed homeowner loans.The banks received a total of 64 Billion which was to be passed on.The fact is it has not been passed on and not only that but they are hoarding this cash and they are not loaning it out to cash starved businesses.The economy is therefore starved and is stagnant as a result.
On your last point id say they got the money for every stressed loan and so I dont think they would need more.

They didn't receive the money to pass on to the public as debt forgiveness. Also, they have been forced to deleverage meaning reduce their loan:deposit ratio and given the way the economy is they are being a lot more careful with how they are lending (if this had been the case during the boom we wouldn't be in this mess).

Francis Murtagh

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They already got billions to set against debt forgiveness. They are dragging their feet and have been warned numerous times by the Financial Regulator, The Chairman of the Central Bank and by the Department of finance.

We have given them the money and they have told us to **** off.

The money could have been used to start a new banking system.

washman3 wrote: »

Excellent post Francis. As you can already see the main opposition are ourselves. many people have been completely and utterly brainwashed into believing T.I.N.A (there is no alternative)
Expect many attacks here from the various vested interests and government apologists who scan these forums, in an organised manner, for topics like this with the prime motive being to ridicule the poster.
Good luck with your brave campaign.

Thanks very much for your support and I intend to continue with this.I dont mind any negative comments because this challenges me to have answers to these very good questions

Lantus

No one would doubt your passion but the age of complaint for the sake of it is begining its demise.

As Henry Ford said "Dont find fault, find a remedy. Anybody can complain"

We need problem solvers in the years to come. Its a terrible thing to be able to be able to spot the problem and not to be able to do anything but shout about it. I mean no offence by that, it is a reflection of our sciety that we have become somewhat good at spotting problems but no better at offering up solutions.

A march tells the political elite nothing they all ready knew except to fear the populace a little more than the day before last. Power and fear make bad bed fellows.

Francis Murtagh

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

They didn't receive the money to pass on to the public as debt forgiveness. Also, they have been forced to deleverage meaning reduce their loan:deposit ratio and given the way the economy is they are being a lot more careful with how they are lending (if this had been the case during the boom we wouldn't be in this mess).

I agree with your comments about the boom time lending which brought this country to its knees.They lent the money so should now take responsibility for their failures. I still say they have received this money which should be passed on to the people.

Francis Murtagh

Lantus wrote: »

No one would doubt your passion but the age of complaint for the sake of it is begining its demise.

As Henry Ford said "Dont find fault, find a remedy. Anybody can complain"

We need problem solvers in the years to come. Its a terrible thing to be able to be able to spot the problem and not to be able to do anything but shout about it. I mean no offence by that, it is a reflection of our sciety that we have become somewhat good at spotting problems but no better at offering up solutions.

A march tells the political elite nothing they all ready knew except to fear the populace a little more than the day before last. Power and fear make bad bed fellows.

Thanks for your comments but I would say look at the comparison I am using in the Title of the "Arab Spring " where the peoples voice caused real change to occur.Would you rather if we all sat around complaining,and doing nothing?
I believe there are many very intelligent people in this country who can provide a real alternative to the existing system.

Idbatterim

Francis, we all agree the bank debt is a disgrace. the government are trying to negotiate on this subject, but it is extremely complex. why not work on stuff we have control over? I cant blame Europe not giving us a deal on bank debt while we live way outside our means... Were obviously nowhere near broke enough! Greece had debt written off as you cant get blood from a stone. Ireland fortunately or not, is not in the same boat.

NIMAN

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

I believe there are many very intelligent people in this country who can provide a real alternative to the existing system.

Can you name some of them?

Francis Murtagh

Idbatterim wrote: »

why not work on stuff we have control over? I cant blame Europe not giving us a deal on bank debt while we live way outside our means... Were obviously nowhere near broke enough! Greece had debt written off as you cant get blood from a stone. Ireland fortunately or not, is not in the same boat.

Thank you for your reply. I just think we are just lying down and doing nothing about our present situation. Even Greece will get a better deal than us. They take to the streets and this enpowers their politicians. We should do the same.

kuang1

washman3 wrote: »

Excellent post Francis. As you can already see the main opposition are ourselves. many people have been completely and utterly brainwashed into believing T.I.N.A (there is no alternative)
Expect many attacks here from the various vested interests and government apologists who scan these forums, in an organised manner, for topics like this with the prime motive being to ridicule the poster.
Good luck with your brave campaign.

there's a lot of truth in this post francis. it all sounds very conspiracy-theory-ish but this is the real world of today.
before i even read washmans post i have to say that's exactly what i thought as i read the first 2 replies to your original post.
you have my full support make no mistake.

Good loser

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

Thank you for your reply. I just think we are just lying down and doing nothing about our present situation. Even Greece will get a better deal than us. They take to the streets and this enpowers their politicians. We should do the same.

Of course Greece got a better 'deal' than us because they were in a much bigger hole. They got €240 bn and still owe more than us - as a percentage of GDP. We are looking to get out of our predicament by 2016; they are looking at 2020 minimum.

Plus they have really suffered austerity.

bbsrs

Good luck Francis as you said at least you're trying . But the 64 billion isn't the biggest problem we have , how out of balance our budget is.

Cookie_Monster

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

Firstly i'll say they have not passed on the debt forgiveness they have received to all stressed homeowner loans.The banks received a total of 64 Billion which was to be passed on.The fact is it has not been passed on and not only that but they are hoarding this cash and they are not loaning it out to cash starved businesses.The economy is therefore starved and is stagnant as a result.
On your last point id say they got the money for every stressed loan and so I dont think they would need more.

why should it be passed on? it's not the banks fault someone paid way way over the value for a house.

yore

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

The Irish Spring - Rise up and say no to this bank debt.
Dear People of Ireland
Our banks went bust and our Government saddles us with their 64,000,000,000 euro debt. That’s a lot of cash which will be taken from you and me, on a dept which does not belong to you.
The upcoming budget will take 3,000,000 Euros from your pocket to pay interest on a loan which you never took out.
This loan belongs to the Banks; they took out the Loans, not you. Hello! This bank shackle is being placed on the necks of every man, women and child in this country. We are being sold into slavery. For a loan which is not ours. Full stop.
And the Banks are gaining possession of our homes, our lands, and our businesses and shops.. Can you not see it happening?
And foreign financial vultures are swooping in to clean up the best of these properties.
Time to say,
NO, NO, NO.
The spiritual, emotional and financial implications of this yoke on our necks are enormous. We are all effected, some more than others, some driven to suicide, it is
Time to say,
NO,NO NO.
WE are a tiny nation on the edge of the Atlantic which has being oppressed for generations. We fought and paid a huge price for our independence. Brother killed brother in a horrific civil war. For what?
For this?
Our elected representatives are grovelling their way to Europe and particularly to Germany, begging, begging begging. Like a puppy dog our Taoiseach is more interested in getting a pat on the head than standing firm and refusing to accept this Bank Yoke which is being put on the necks of the people he is supposed to be representing...Our Taoiseach and Finance ministers are only puppets of the Troika. That is clearly seen today.
WE HAVE HAD PROMISE AFTER PROMISE FROM THESE BODIES THAT IRELAND WOULD BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY...
We have no patience left for their lies.
Time to say,
NO, NO, NO.
Our Bankers are still engaged in a feeding frenzy on your money, your taxes. They lavish on themselves salaries and pensions and bonuses of 500,000 Euros and more and treat us with absolute contempt in the process. They have no sense of morality, no sense of having done anything wrong, their thinking has become futile and their foolish hearts have become darkened and hardened. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity.
Most of our politicians are just as greedy, especially the last lot who drove off with your money.

Meanwhile What Has Happened To Us?
Why are You taking all of this lying down?
Do you feel like I do that there is nothing I can do about It.? We are like a people drugged and anaesthetised, waiting to be operated upon on the table of super powers , economists, financiers, accountants, bankers and politicians who care nothing for the plight of the poor of this country. And I include the middle class as part of the new poor.
Sure proof of this fact was clearly seen last week when the head of the Bank of Ireland, Richie Boucher, strutted his way into the offices of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. This is a body representing you in the Dáil. These are your elected representatives, this is YOU, who was treated with the highest level of contempt and insult, as that Banker refused to answer any of YOUR questions in an open and honest way. This is a Bank that received a good part of that 64,000,000,000 euro bailout. This is arrogance at its highest...
The Banks are Private Foreign Companies who have no interest in the plight of the Irish People. Their aim is to make a profit for their shareholders. Wake up People. I have no problem with a company making profits, but I have a huge problem when private companies such as called AIB and Bank Of Ireland (so called pillar banks), Permanent TSP and Anglo Bank have being bailed out by the Irish People, by you. And in return what do these banks do? They put the yoke of this loan on you and strip you naked in the process. They treat our Government with utter contempt. And their decision making will impact every man woman and child for generations. These Banks which received massive loans of 64,000,000,000 Euros from the Troika, and our Government, are now saddling us with this loan and Richie Boucher sneers at the Irish people in the process. He showed his real card, he showed what the banks are really about. And Mr Noonan continues to protest that he can do nothing about this, even though the Irish People in principal own both AIB, Anglo and Permanent Tsp!
It is time for us all wake up to what the banks are about. They are private companies and they are nor answerable to the state. Mr Boucher proved that! We have been sold a pup. We are actually bailing out a private company owned by shareholders whose sole mission is to make massive profits. At our expense.
So it is time to say NO,NO,NO To this unjust Yoke being put on our necks. It is not ours. Say no to your hard earned money being extracted from you and given to these banks. Don’t be fooled with AIB either.
So what can we do?
Don’t say “a sur what can I do”... I have been saying that too...but no more...
Because if you do not do something now, and i do not do something now, we can never again complain about the Budget, the Troika, the Government, your local TD...the weather, whatever.
If you and I do not do something now, we are saying in effect, that we are willing to allow the Troika, our Government and the Banks to put a yoke of 64 Billion Euros over our necks and lead us into slavery for at least 30 years. They will lead you and I into another Van Demons land, like lambs to the slaughter.
To accept this, lying down, is a sure sign of madness, Hello?
We make excuse after excuse, the greatest being that we say this is too big, we are all saying “what can i do”, we all feel exactly the same, we feel powerless...we cannot overcome this monster. I believe together we can slay this monster.
And some of us may fear that we could be kicked out of Europe if we push this too far. Europe will never kick us out as they have a loan of 64,000,000,000 out on us. Why? If we were to default on that 64,000,000,000 euro bank loan then we would pull Europe down as well. I don’t want either to happen but I for one, am no longer willing to make any repayments on a loan which is not mine.
Are you?
It is time to call their bluff.
I am sorry if this offends...But this is the choice we have. I am simply willing to be the vehicle through which you can empower yourself and your community and regain you voice, because you matter!
It’s Simple.
It Starts with You.
And this will end with you.
So who are you?
Are you unemployed? Do you know there are 450,000 of you out there? Can you give to this cause by giving of yourself? You are affected by this too. Your dignity will be restored as you join us in the march for freedom. And jobs will be created for you again in this country, and not in Australia. Will 450,000 of you be willing to march?
Can you use your spare time to join with me in this worthy cause?
Are you disabled...Please join me so that together we can protect your interests as the Government is about to sacrifice you to pay the Banks...To make cuts in basic essencial services...and Why? To pay back a Bank loan which is not yours.!
Are you on the breadline? Join me and together we will insist that you are treated with dignity and that money will be available to increase your standard of living.
Are you a Pensioner? The Government will cut your allowances and cut your travel passes. Why? They want to extract your savings to help pay the interest on a 64,000,000,000 loan which you did not take out... After all your years of service, this is what our Government is agreeing to. Join us and together let us say.
NO ,NO ,NO.
To unjust taxes.
Are you a householder suffering from negative equity and facing increased taxes to pay for this 64,000,000,000 euro loan for the rest of your lives.? This is madness. Then join me and let us march together and say
No more, No More, No More
Are you a patient or will you be a patient in any outpatient or general hospital? Do you know there will be massive cuts to the Health budget in the next budget? Do you know that hospitals will close? Do you know that Waterford hospital may close? Do you know that essential services for the elderly and disabled will be axed! And what are all these cuts for?
To pay interest and capital on a 64,000,000,000 euro loan the banks took for themselves. This loan is not yours.
Now is the window of opportunity to shout aloud before the Budget is introduced.
Now is the time to be Patriotic.
We need a new Easter raising...a Peaceful Rising,
The Irish Spring.
I am calling on the Unemployed, Professionals, Business leaders, Musicians, Trade Unionists, Students, Medical staff, Civil servants, Mothers and Fathers and their Children , Farmers ( bring your tractors ), all Employees in all Companies, Service industries, Executives of Multinationals, Executives of Irish Companies, Airlines, Computer, Transport, Media, (Please bring your cameras etc), Teachers, Gardai, Army, Nurses, Lawyers, Judges, Priests, Cardinals, Bishops, Pastors Ministers...( This is a time to protect your flocks !), TDs ( after all you are supposed to be representing your people), People to represent the sick, the Disabled, those suffering from Addictions, the Homeless, Prisoners, the Marginalised of Society, Charity organisations, Sporting Organisations such GAA, IFA, IRFU, Athletics, Boxing, Racing, Cricket, and all other sporting bodies, Public bodies, Bank Staff, And please forgive me if I have left out any group...
WE should easily muster a million people from this list.
Please come.
. I am calling on Irish people from all over the globe to be a part of this initiative. There are 70 million of Irish decent scattered all over the globe. Let this appeal go to each one of these. Contact them through this appeal through Facebook, Twitter and all other social media communication. Get their support. Get them on board. Would they be willing to muster support in your country??
Let this go worldwide. Finally use all your computer skills and contacts and let this appeal go out all over the country and all over the world. Let it go Viral.... (I am just about computer literate.)
Let’s have marches on the same day in every city where the Irish live.
Let this be a real Paddies Day, a rising of the Irish to say.
“No to this Bank Dept”
We need to send the strongest possible signal to our Government and to Europe that we have had enough.
So let us all unite under one banner, a banner of peace which simply says No To This Bank dept.

So Here is the Plan
Meet at 2 pm next Saturday week November 24th and wherever you are March on the Dáil.
(Of course the Dáil will be empty.)..
This first march is a public peaceful expression of our anger at the way we are being treated. I would suggest we meet at O Connell Bridge at 2 Pm.
Bring your whistles and drums, musical instruments and bodhráns.
Support one another as you walk. You will be encouraged by those you walk with and they will encouraged by you. A sense of empowerment will happen as you walk. A great sense of Unity will begin enfold. A Sense of Love will flow again. The sense of greed will be put to flight.
So Please,

1. Make up banners and placards describing who you are and the reason for your protest.

2. Shout “No No No” to this Loan being put on our backs.

3. If you cannot march, then make up simple petitions in your workplaces, using this document as a template, and forward to me at my address. This will be used to lobby our cause. Where, Everywhere. In shops, factories, hospitals, nursing homes, hse, everywhere two or three are gathered, dole offices, revenue offices, churches. Let’s make these official legal documents that cannot be sneered at. Please get involved in your community to make this a resounding success. Could you organise local marches if you cannot travel to the Dáil. March on your local County Councils and Corporations and make your voice heard. Organise buses to travel to Dublin...maybe your local bus companies could organise free travel to the Dail. Come on, let’s go for this.

4. Be Creative! Artists and Poets and Musicians, let’s hear from you...Let’s go for this. Bono, how about a free concert? Christy Moore, how about a special song that speaks of this...This is a great opportunity for us all to give, to give back to the people of Ireland who have made this nation great. This is our nation. Together we can restore the heart that is in the Irish Nation. WE will take back our dignity and break the yoke over our people.

5. Continue to March until this simple request is accepted... We will review matters after each march...Until we see our Government go to Europe and demand this Dept be removed from our backs.

6. If the Troika refuses to listen to our Government then we will take the fight to the mainland. We will make contacts with the oppressed peoples of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and all other people oppressed and shackled by these unfair and unjust taxes. We will together march on the financial powers of the Troika...We will take the protest to the Financial and Political Centre of Europe. Let’s aim for a peaceful march of one million people! A spring rising from nothing high up in the mountains in Ireland but meeting together to form a mighty river...Descending on the Troika.

So what will this accomplish? Victory!

1. Firstly as we March for this Country, It will give our elected representatives a powerful mandate to go to the Troika and say NO NO NO to their plan to enslave the Irish people for the next 40 years.
2. If our elected representatives will not listen to us the people of Ireland, then we will insist on a General Election and replace them with people who will truly represent the people. We can easily do this by approaching our local TDs and insisting that they listen to us and support us. Let them each hold up a placard stating which constituency they represent in our march. They will see the thousands of ordinary people saying that they have had enough. They will see and read the million or so of signed petitions insisting this yoke be taken off the backs of the Irish people. This is democracy at work. Those TDs will have no option but to vote against their Party...And the Government will fall. We have tremendous power if we work together.
3. If the Troika does not listen to us then we the newly elected members of Government will simply refuse to make any repayments on the Loan. It is not the Peoples Loan. Let the so called experts of the Troika solve this problem in a just and equitable way. And lay the blame firmly where it belongs...on the Bankers, Developers, Bondholders and NOT ON US. We refuse to pay. It is not our dept. We can do this.
4. We will succeed. This Plan will work. Recent history shows that peaceful demonstration works. We just need the masses to turn out and speak as one voice.
5. And the Economy will grow again once this yoke is removed from the backs of our people. Business will flourish, tax revenue will increase, families will be restored, and jobs will be created in all areas of the economy. The Spirit of our nation will be revived. That is what will happen. This is worth marching for.
So please join me from next Saturday Week, November 24 Th November, from 2pm and March on Dáil Eireann . Meet at O Connell Bridge at 2PM
I will have a yoke on my shoulders which will simply read
64,000,000,000 Euros
This bank debt does not belong to the Irish People.

This March is very important as it will enable you who have no voice, to have a voice.

Finally this Series of Demonstrations must be Peaceful and there is no place for any individuals or any organisations who would like to use this mass demonstration as a means of using violence to attack the State or further their end towards anarchy. We submit to the Governing authorities. We are a totally Democratic body of people. We depend on the Gardai to work with us to manage this movement. We will work with them. We are known as the best soccer supporters in the world. Let’s build on that to reach our goal of breaking the yoke of this bank dept and releasing the captives to go free.
Who am I?
I am an ordinary citizen who is totally fed up and angry with how we are being treated. Everything I have written reflects who I am. I consider myself to be a Christian and that motivates me to fight against this unjust bank Loan and the serious effects it is having on people.
My name is Francis Murtagh and I have no political allegiance with any party. I have never attended any political meeting. I do vote at every election and I vote depending on what a Party or individual stands for. I voted for Fine Gael in the last election and I voted for John McGuinness in Kilkenny as I liked the things they were saying, and what they stood for. I am now totally disillusioned as I feel this Government have let the country down. I have no confidence that Enda Kenny has the bottle to stand up to Angela Merkel. That lady reminds me too much of Margaret Thatcher.
So I want us all to stand up and say NO, NO, NO to this 64,000.000.000 euro loan. Simple.
<snip>
Like most people in this country, I have had enough...

I have not consulted with anyone except my family before sending this out. There is no organisation in place. This is beginning with me. But this is not about me, this is all about you. I have heard so many people saying what “can we do”, and I have decided to put my neck on the block to a least provide a platform where the voice of the people will be heard. This is risky and dangerous...Many will say I am mad. But I believe that like minded people who have the same vision will come to serve this cause and will come along side me to see this vision accomplished.
I am not an extremist. I am only known by my family and a small circle of friends.
But I have had enough.
As a captain ( which I was !) I might say, gathering my players around me, I say to you “come on, we can do this, we have all the gifting we need, let’s work as a team and lets win this battle and save this country 64,000,000,000 Euros and put the Troika to flight.” And we can breathe again.
So that is why I say to the Troika
No,NO NO.
No More.
Let this be the Irish Spring.
And together we will be a powerful force to bring change in this land.
Francis Murtagh.
<snip>At least I will have tried.

On a serious, non-soap related issue, your post is a rant. Nothing more.
I don't mean that in a bad or condescending way. Yes we are being fu$cked over to a certain extent but it demonstrates a shocking naiveity to think that if we said "fu$k off Europe and Banks" that we'd have a big pile of 64bn Euros that we could keep for ourselves and live off.

Think of the analogy of a business that is going through very difficult times and needs to get over the hump of a prolonged cashflow problem. It knows it's a good business but isn't currently turning over enough revenue to pay it's operating costs. It wasn't to keep going because it thinks that in a year it will return to good health. It is getting 10k liquidity a week from the Bank to meet it's current running costs but it also owes the Bank 5 million for a legacy loan for a bad investment (One that was advised they were persuaded into by the same bank as being a suitable investment). It realises that if it could walk away from the 5 million loan it'd save itself 3k a week in interest payments. Do you think that it would be a good idea for the company to walk away from the bank? Do you think that that would save itself?


Your own experience with banks is a microcosm of the greater system. And no, I'm sorry but I think that there should be no debt forgiveness of people with assets. Because that means people with nothing are paying for others to have something for "free"

Francis Murtagh

Idbatterim wrote: »

Francis, we all agree the bank debt is a disgrace. the government are trying to negotiate on this subject, but it is extremely complex. why not work on stuff we have control over? I cant blame Europe not giving us a deal on bank debt while we live way outside our means... Were obviously nowhere near broke enough! Greece had debt written off as you cant get blood from a stone. Ireland fortunately or not, is not in the same boat.

NIMAN wrote: »

Can you name some of them?

Yes, all the top civil servants in the Ministry of Finance. That is what they are paid for. leadership comes from above. I like what Shane Ross says.

20Cent

Fair play to you Francis, I'll be there on the 24th. Don't mind the negative comments Ireland is being blagarded for being the EU's little poodle (Colm McCarthy's words not mine). Banks, multinationals, vested interests all petition the Gov all the time for what they want. The citizens also need to stand up and have their voices heard. The current path is to almost certain default of sovereign debt, its a downward spiral due to get much much worse. People need to put pressure on our Gov and the EU to break this cycle. Hope their is a big turnout.

Head The Wall

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

I also bought the old Post office in Fanore and i developed a small village centre of a new post office, a craft shop, restaurant and 3 apartments overhead.


I took up a bank loan around 2001 for this development and to build our home in Fanore.


And the Bank have made no allowance in any of this, and made no allowance for the fact that their reckless lending policies caused the value of my property to plummet.

I am now in negative equity on a loan that was taken out in 2001. This was not a greedy development. It was, and is a family business, and the Bank is now in the process of taking this property from me.

I'm sorry to hear about your mental health issues but there are plenty of people in your exact situation that don't have those issues.

Firstly I don't accept that what you built was a small development nor do I believe it was a family business. If you just opened a chemist then I would class that as a family business but you built a house, shop, post office, restaurant and apartments. That sounds like the malaise that infected a lot a lot of people during the boom years. Businesses fail, you should be well aware of that and that is what is happening here.


As others have posted, current spending is the real problem here. The bank thing has been done so many times and the likes of your protest is just distracting people from the real issue

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

I agree with your comments about the boom time lending which brought this country to its knees.They lent the money so should now take responsibility for their failures. I still say they have received this money which should be passed on to the people.

Lending is a two way street and they have received provisions for debt write downs. That doesn't mean that they have actually received the money and are sitting on it. It is available to them if they need to avail of it.

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

Yes, all the top civil servants in the Ministry of Finance. That is what they are paid for. leadership comes from above. I like what Shane Ross says.

The top civil servants are the ones that should be fired, they are the ones that have been in the govt this whole time doing such a sterling job, Kevin Cardiff being a prime example. Your post loses all credibility if those career civil servants with feck all finance qualifications between them are the guys you think can save Ireland.

KyussBishop

The problem and the solution both go right over to Europe, with a serious need for stimulus spending on people, and business, not more into the banks, and not accepting the imposed budget constraints; there is an alternative, and it means putting pressure on Europe to get us out of this destructive cycle of austerity, and into stimulus on people/business.

Banks have been bailed out, they have had plenty of stimulus, but there has been no stimulus to relieve the suffering of people in the country; there is no principle reason why a wide-scale job guarantee program can't be embarked on, to deal with the massively damaging effects of unemployment to society, while also providing society a big stimulus.

The government are not capable of achieving favourable negotiations with the EU, and that is very clear at this stage; we have been strong-armed by larger EU nations and the government are impotent.
Remember that a critical part of a countries sovereignty (and the key to recovery), is control over their currency, and that has been removed from us and is in place at the EU, but the EU is not accountable to us like our government is, so we have no influence over them, and the EU gets to unaccountably dictate our national policies (indirectly through imposed budget constraints).

So, while there is no sign of progress (or even the potential of progress) with negotiations with the EU, we need to pressure our government, to put pressure on the EU, and to publicly highlight how unaccountable and deliberately destructive the EU's policies are.


Pretty much all discussion here on this forum, narrowly focuses only on Ireland and presupposes austerity, but when you presuppose and accept austerity, we're already fúcked and your just debating over what parts of society/government to burn down (when that is completely unnecessary).

Head The Wall

KyussBishop wrote: »

Pretty much all discussion here on this forum, narrowly focuses only on Ireland and presupposes austerity, but when you presuppose and accept austerity, we're already fúcked and your just debating over what parts of society/government to burn down (when that is completely unnecessary).

Are you trying to state that the govt is running as lean and efficiently as it can. Regardless of the bank debt the govt spends too much money and the previous revenue levels will not be coming back so they need to do something about that. You are talking as if the bank debt is the only issue.

Francis Murtagh

Head The Wall wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear about your mental health issues but there are plenty of people in your exact situation that don't have those issues.

Firstly I don't accept that what you built was a small development nor do I believe it was a family business. If you just opened a chemist then I would class that as a family business but you built a house, shop, post office, restaurant and apartments. That sounds like the malaise that infected a lot a lot of people during the boom years. Businesses fail, you should be well aware of that and that is what is happening here.


As others have posted, current spending is the real problem here. The bank thing has been done so many times and the likes of your protest is just distracting people from the real issue




Lending is a two way street and they have received provisions for debt write downs. That doesn't mean that they have actually received the money and are sitting on it. It is available to them if they need to avail of it.





The top civil servants are the ones that should be fired, they are the ones that have been in the govt this whole time doing such a sterling job, Kevin Cardiff being a prime example. Your post loses all credibility if those career civil servants with feck all finance qualifications between them are the guys you think can save Ireland.

I'm sorry, but that was what Fanore was about.
I had a vision to put some badly needed services in that village. Pay a visit and see what you think. I was investing myself in that project. We can sit on our hands and do nothing or we can rise up to make a difference. Even for a small community. Anyway that is what I did, and maybe it was a mistake. I want to look at the bigger picture , that is can we make a difference to change people's lives. I included that personal details for the sake of integrity.
I would only use dept financial expertise in the department to be a servant to this vision. And not the other way round. Step one is to say no to this bank dept. and then use both department and others ( like David Mcwilliams )expertise to show how this can be done.You see I am neither a economist or an accountant, but I know this bank dept is crippling people. And there is enough expertise out there to show how this can be done without causing a financial collapse.
If I have a sick dog I would call a vet . I would not be confident to treat that pet.
Likewise with our economy. I would call in the financial experts.
Meanwhile lets us march to say we have had enough.

jmayo

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

<snip>
Like most people in this country, I have had enough...

I have not consulted with anyone except my family before sending this out. There is no organisation in place. This is beginning with me. But this is not about me, this is all about you. I have heard so many people saying what “can we do”, and I have decided to put my neck on the block to a least provide a platform where the voice of the people will be heard. This is risky and dangerous...Many will say I am mad. But I believe that like minded people who have the same vision will come to serve this cause and will come along side me to see this vision accomplished.
I am not an extremist. I am only known by my family and a small circle of friends.
But I have had enough.
As a captain ( which I was !) I might say, gathering my players around me, I say to you “come on, we can do this, we have all the gifting we need, let’s work as a team and lets win this battle and save this country 64,000,000,000 Euros and put the Troika to flight.” And we can breathe again.
So that is why I say to the Troika
No,NO NO.
No More.
Let this be the Irish Spring.
And together we will be a powerful force to bring change in this land.
Francis Murtagh.
<snip>
At least I will have tried.

Sorry to hear you have health issues but this still needs to be said, you are typical of a fair chunk of the Irish population who took out loans to get into development.
You were a pharmacist yet you decided that you would buy an old postoffice and develop "a small village centre of a new post office, a craft shop, restaurant and 3 apartments overhead".

Fanore is a small village in Clare, yet you decided that you would build 3 apartments there.
How many months of the year did you hope to fill those apartments ?
Were they going to be filled by the supposed continuing influx of foreign workers ?

I am sorry you have mental health issues and I do think the bank should come to an understanding about repaying the loans, but that does not mean I think the bank should forgive you those loans.
If the bank forgives those loans, then it is probably me, my family and other familes who have to take up your slack.
And even if the bank is a non Irish guaranteed one, some taxpayer or bank customers are going to have to pay for it.

Frankly if you read between the lines, the jist of your posts is that you really want is to get out from under your debts.
In one post you claim the banks got money for debt forgiveness and you claim the bank through "their reckless lending policies caused the value of my property to plummet".

FFS you bought a property in a small rural village in Clare and then built a development that relied on tourism probably for the most part.
You also build a house.
Why couldn't you just develop the three apartments into a home as was historically the case in most businesses in small rural towns and villages ?

You claim it was not a development, but a business.
Well if it was you need to have thought that businesses fail.

You took out a loan to "develop" and basically you now want out.
Would you have been so generous if things had turned out differently?

You and all the other would be part time developers are part of the reason we are in this fooking mess.
I know lots of people who started "developing".

Yeah they might claim they were renovating their core business, but lo and behold they suddenly had added a load of apartments onto it to cater for all the foreign nationals that were going to come.
Oh and all the small developments add up.

In all your long post you never mention the fact that our annual public spending far outweighs our annual revenues and a lot of our cuts are because of this.
Bank bailout costs or not, we still were living far beyond our means.

You waffle some delusional bullsh** about telling the Troika to go stuff themselves.
Where then do we get the money to keep going ?

The time for telling the EU, ECB to go get stuffed was back in 2008/2009 and where were people then ?
FFS more people demonstrated against a stag hunt than against NAMA or the bank guarantees.
We no longer have the threat of bringing destruction to others that we did when our banks were collapsing.
Our only threat now is to destroy ourselves to bring some destruction to others.

Note I did not include the IMF since I believe they are the only ones of the troika who actually have their head screwed on and aren't pedalling the German agenda, which is what has Europe totally screwed.

And I don't care if your supporters start complaining that I am unfair on you.
Is it fair that you walk away from your debts and affectively dump them on others?

Oh don't think in my lambasting the "little developers" I am forgetting the morons who ran the government, the Dept of Finance (who unbelievably you reckon have solutions to our problems), the Irish financial regulatory authorities and the banks themselves.

IMHO the most we can hope is that Germany cops on and realises that saddling us with massive bank debts is counter productive and we need to have the Spanish deal for historical bank debts.
But sadly I don't see fuhrer merkel showing any sense any time soon.
Anyway I think before that day arrives, our opposition tonight on the soccer pitch is going to slide into oblivion and then all bets are off.

But even if tomorrow we got rid of that bank debt we still need to address the public spending issues and a failure to notice this is either willful delusion or complete stupidity.

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

Yes, all the top civil servants in the Ministry of Finance. That is what they are paid for. leadership comes from above. I like what Shane Ross says.

Oh FFS, the top civil servants in the Dept of finance.
You are better off going up to the chimp enclosure in Dublin Zoo.

Whilst I agree with a lot of what Shane Ross has said and done down the years, I lost a fair amount of respect for mr ross when he couldn't demand the removal of a tax cheat from the Dail because he was one of his buddies.

KyussBishop

Head The Wall wrote: »

Are you trying to state that the govt is running as lean and efficiently as it can. Regardless of the bank debt the govt spends too much money and the previous revenue levels will not be coming back so they need to do something about that. You are talking as if the bank debt is the only issue.

The majority of discussion on this forum talks like the budget is the only issue, when obviously the massive inefficiency and societal damage of widespread unemployment needs to be resolved, and stimulating demand in the wider economy (not just in the banks) also needs to be undertaken (solving one is complimentary to the other), in order to actually get the economy running again.

All of these are policies that must be taken at an EU level at the moment, and not nearly enough is being done in that regard.

jmayo

It is marvellous how many of the posters who preface the argument that it is the massive level of personal debts that are holding the economy back and that dealing with this debt is the way for the economy to move forward, are actually up to their necks in debts and are looking for debt forgiveness measures.

BTW debt forgiveness means you get someone else to pay for them.
I alos find it funny how the ones usually looking for debt forgiveness also mention how the banks want to take their property off them.

They never seem to contenance that with a proper writeoff of debts, one loses the property.

This bunch of people also often include the ones who seem to think that negative equity means their loans should be cut to match the value of their property and even some who subscribe to the idea that if only house prices increased the economy would be fine.

JustinDee

Anyone who borrowed beyond their means is just as culpable as the lender in all of this, as is anyone who borrowed to invest in other schemes.
The housekeeper, nanny, second home, holiday home, second or third car, extensions etc are all luxuries that should only have been delved into if affordable.

hyperborean

Best country in the world to do business in

Anyway, if you ignore the fact that there is a significant problem with personal debt in Ireland we still have one of the highest standards of living in the WORLD.

Our public sector is one of the (if not) highest paid

Our social welfare is extraordinarily generous,

Nobody goes hungry in this country!

The healthcare system for all its faults is better than 90% of countries in the world....

Personal safety is high

Living conditions good,

Education is also up there, could be better but certainly could be worse,

WHY THE **** WOULD THE POPULATION WANT TO RISE UP?

Francis Murtagh

kuang1 wrote: »

there's a lot of truth in this post francis. it all sounds very conspiracy-theory-ish but this is the real world of today.
before i even read washmans post i have to say that's exactly what i thought as i read the first 2 replies to your original post.
you have my full support make no mistake.

im not too good on this board..so sorry if i missed any of your feedback. Than your for your support.

Francis Murtagh

hyperborean wrote: »

Best country in the world to do business in

Anyway, if you ignore the fact that there is a significant problem with personal debt in Ireland we still have one of the highest standards of living in the WORLD.

Our public sector is one of the (if not) highest paid

Our social welfare is extraordinarily generous,

Nobody goes hungry in this country!

The healthcare system for all its faults is better than 90% of countries in the world....

Personal safety is high

Living conditions good,

Education is also up there, could be better but certainly could be worse,

WHY THE **** WOULD THE POPULATION WANT TO RISE UP?

I agree this is a great little country. But i believe the most vulnerable are being squeezed to make repayments on a loan which is not theirs. That is why we should rise up. If this not apply to you,great. But this loan is stifyling growth in the Economy and more importantly it is squeezing the life out of probably a million people in this country through increased taxes and cuts in vital services.. Maybe the better off could see this and be willing to support them in their plight. WE will all benefit. People first, then businesses and finally Government.

Francis Murtagh

JustinDee wrote: »

Anyone who borrowed beyond their means is just as culpable as the lender in all of this, as is anyone who borrowed to invest in other schemes.
The housekeeper, nanny, second home, holiday home, second or third car, extensions etc are all luxuries that should only have been delved into if affordable.

I agree. But the banks are a business like any other. I am only saying that they should take responcibility for their loans and not force the people of ireland to pay for there mistakes.
And if we are being forced to pay, the least the Banks and the Government should do is write off all homeowner loans by the same amount.
Take the case of a homeowner who took out a loan of 200,000 e and now finds themselfs in serios financial difficulties.
Thir Bank applies and gets a bailout of 100,000 euros from UCB etc. Maybe im simple, but that 100,000 euro is sitting in the bank as money has changed hands.( Or in a paper form )
The initial stress test indentified this loan. Why on earth does the bank not now writedown that loan to 100,000 and allow that housholder to keep their house and remorgage the balance of 100,000.
But no, that housholder is hit on the treble.
. Firstly the bank is refusing any level of dept forgivness and the housholder is stressed out of their head and living under the fear of re-possession.
Secondly that bailout of 100,000 is sitting in the bank, which the bank is using for its own end-and is not even lending it out.
Thirdly that housholder is being hit at every turn to pay for this bailout with stealth-taxes, increased rates of income tax, savage cuts in essencial area, especially in health.
And on top of this the Mean man in Bank of Ireland shows utter contempt in the Dail recently.
Time for us to say No!

kupus

The only thing about the TOP CIVIL SERVANTS in every Dept. is that these people could not get a job in the private sector when starting out in their working career.

But brass neck and daddy can only get you so far. In fairness would you give any of the guys you know that work in the Government offices a job.........and be truthful about it. (im not talking about frontline workers here)
They lazily work their way up playing office politics, They get there early age retirement and then come the quangos, commissions, chairs and other assorted perks, maybe a board job with a private company that has very close relations with the politicians
And the circle continues......

Meanwhile the BRAIN DRAIN of Ireland continues.

ArmaniJeanss

So basically you want the rest of us to take over your debt for you, whilst you continue to live in what is apparently your house.
And you want us to march on the Dail in support of this idea?

hyperborean

kupus wrote: »

Meanwhile the BRAIN DRAIN of Ireland continues.

Don't be so deluded, the talent get work, the ones that leave can easily be replaced.

JustinDee

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

I agree. But the banks are a business like any other. I am only saying that they should take responcibility for their loans and not force the people of ireland to pay for there mistakes

Yes they are a business, but regardless of protests etc, an economy still needs banks. The reason why economy is stodgy right now is because there is no credit to go around.

Nobody forced anyone to participate in lazy lending, be that as lender or borrower.
The time for you to say "No" was in the mid-2000s, when offered credit cards, 100% loans or incentives on investment schemes that seemed quite fluid at the time.

kupus

hyperborean wrote: »

Don't be so deluded, the talent get work, the ones that leave can easily be replaced.

Deluded. Seriously
Talent getting work. Seriously
Easily replaced. Seriously


real insightful, can you explain why the graduated are leaving in droves, can you explain the lost tax revenue that has to be made up by ......wait for it......
You.

Francis Murtagh

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry to hear you have health issues but this still needs to be said, you are typical of a fair chunk of the Irish population who took out loans to get into development.
You were a pharmacist yet you decided that you would buy an old postoffice and develop "a small village centre of a new post office, a craft shop, restaurant and 3 apartments overhead".

Fanore is a small village in Clare, yet you decided that you would build 3 apartments there.
How many months of the year did you hope to fill those apartments ?
Were they going to be filled by the supposed continuing influx of foreign workers ?

I am sorry you have mental health issues and I do think the bank should come to an understanding about repaying the loans, but that does not mean I think the bank should forgive you those loans.
If the bank forgives those loans, then it is probably me, my family and other familes who have to take up your slack.
And even if the bank is a non Irish guaranteed one, some taxpayer or bank customers are going to have to pay for it.

Frankly if you read between the lines, the jist of your posts is that you really want is to get out from under your debts.
In one post you claim the banks got money for debt forgiveness and you claim the bank through "their reckless lending policies caused the value of my property to plummet".

FFS you bought a property in a small rural village in Clare and then built a development that relied on tourism probably for the most part.
You also build a house.
Why couldn't you just develop the three apartments into a home as was historically the case in most businesses in small rural towns and villages ?

You claim it was not a development, but a business.
Well if it was you need to have thought that businesses fail.

You took out a loan to "develop" and basically you now want out.
Would you have been so generous if things had turned out differently?

You and all the other would be part time developers are part of the reason we are in this fooking mess.
I know lots of people who started "developing".

Yeah they might claim they were renovating their core business, but lo and behold they suddenly had added a load of apartments onto it to cater for all the foreign nationals that were going to come.
Oh and all the small developments add up.

In all your long post you never mention the fact that our annual public spending far outweighs our annual revenues and a lot of our cuts are because of this.
Bank bailout costs or not, we still were living far beyond our means.

You waffle some delusional bullsh** about telling the Troika to go stuff themselves.
Where then do we get the money to keep going ?

The time for telling the EU, ECB to go get stuffed was back in 2008/2009 and where were people then ?
FFS more people demonstrated against a stag hunt than against NAMA or the bank guarantees.
We no longer have the threat of bringing destruction to others that we did when our banks were collapsing.
Our only threat now is to destroy ourselves to bring some destruction to others.

Note I did not include the IMF since I believe they are the only ones of the troika who actually have their head screwed on and aren't pedalling the German agenda, which is what has Europe totally screwed.

And I don't care if your supporters start complaining that I am unfair on you.
Is it fair that you walk away from your debts and affectively dump them on others?

Oh don't think in my lambasting the "little developers" I am forgetting the morons who ran the government, the Dept of Finance (who unbelievably you reckon have solutions to our problems), the Irish financial regulatory authorities and the banks themselves.

IMHO the most we can hope is that Germany cops on and realises that saddling us with massive bank debts is counter productive and we need to have the Spanish deal for historical bank debts.
But sadly I don't see fuhrer merkel showing any sense any time soon.
Anyway I think before that day arrives, our opposition tonight on the soccer pitch is going to slide into oblivion and then all bets are off.

But even if tomorrow we got rid of that bank debt we still need to address the public spending issues and a failure to notice this is either willful delusion or complete stupidity.



Oh FFS, the top civil servants in the Dept of finance.
You are better off going up to the chimp enclosure in Dublin Zoo.

Whilst I agree with a lot of what Shane Ross has said and done down the years, I lost a fair amount of respect for mr ross when he couldn't demand the removal of a tax cheat from the Dail because he was one of his buddies.

Thank you for your feedback. My situation in Fanore is a small part of who i am and sometimes experiences in life shape who you are. Sometimes you make mistakes in life but you never set out to do so.
The case i am making is dept forgiveness for stressed householders. This is not about me. I enclosed my own personal details for the sake of integrity and especially to show that i have no vested interest in this campaign.
That can be thrown at me, and will be. So be it. This is me.
In the end people will want to march to the Dail on Saturday week because they have something to say, just as you have something to say.. They are not following me. They are walking for themselves.
I do not believe i am on a rant. Every day i pick up the papers i see letters to the Editor, i see articles by respected economists saying the same thing. I am sorry but i think everyone is saying the same thing. That is why i have become frustrated. Even the Farming section in the Independent speaks of the same frustration.
We are unwittingly falling into the principal of "divide and conquer". We are all divided, all saying the same thing, but we are not coming together as one voice.All we need to do is "get together, right now" as the old John Lennon song goes! Seriously, that is what i am about. Can we all get together on Saturday week and show our Government and to the Troika that we have has enough.

sean_wayne

Francis Murtagh wrote: »

I agree this is a great little country. But i believe the most vulnerable are being squeezed to make repayments on a loan which is not theirs. That is why we should rise up. If this not apply to you,great. But this loan is stifyling growth in the Economy and more importantly it is squeezing the life out of probably a million people in this country through increased taxes and cuts in vital services.. Maybe the better off could see this and be willing to support them in their plight. WE will all benefit. People first, then businesses and finally Government.

could you be more specific by what you mean by the " most vulnerable " , at this stage it appears that three quaters of the population claim that crown

Francis Murtagh

kupus wrote: »

The only thing about the TOP CIVIL SERVANTS in every Dept. is that these people could not get a job in the private sector when starting out in their working career.

But brass neck and daddy can only get you so far. In fairness would you give any of the guys you know that work in the Government offices a job.........and be truthful about it. (im not talking about frontline workers here)
They lazily work their way up playing office politics, They get there early age retirement and then come the quangos, commissions, chairs and other assorted perks, maybe a board job with a private company that has very close relations with the politicians
And the circle continues......

Meanwhile the BRAIN DRAIN of Ireland continues.

I am open to suggestions where we might get the people we need to run our finances. There has to be some decent heads in the Civil service. I like you comment about brass deck and daddy !