Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

flynnlives

Tomorrow's Irish Times is reporting that a woman died, having been refused a termination while having a miscarriage.
17 weeks pregnant, she was denied the termination because a faint foetal heartbeat could be detected.

I understand the lady succumbed to septicemia.

It was on Vincent Browne during the newspapers section.
Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"

It was also reported on rte radios "late debate"
Also i think the Indo have the same story.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7nlWHfCcAAPysa.jpg

there are no words to describe this...


EDIT TO ADD ARTICLE LINK

Speaking from Belgaum in the Karnataka region of southwest India, Mr Halappanavar said an internal examination was performed when she first presented.

“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”

Critically ill

At lunchtime the foetal heart had stopped and Ms Halappanavar was brought to theatre to have the womb contents removed. “When she came out she was talking okay but she was very sick. That’s the last time I spoke to her.”

At 11 pm he got a call from the hospital. “They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren’t functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

Pride Fighter

Well done to the scum in Youth Defence, they have blood on their hands.

Alessandra

flynnlives wrote: »

Tomorrow's Irish Times is reporting that a woman died, having been refused a termination while having a miscarriage.
17 weeks pregnant, she was denied the termination because a faint foetal heartbeat could be detected.

I understand the lady succumbed to septicemia.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7nlWHfCcAAPysa.jpg

there are no words to describe this...

I really can't read the article clearly. There would need to be more information before any of us could voice an opinion?

mackg

There might be words if it was possible to read that link.

Apparently being discussed on Vincent Brown but might be over by now.

Celly Smunt

flynnlives wrote: »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7nlWHfCcAAPysa.jpg

hmmmmm

cournioni

I wonder will they class this as murder like they do with their pro life posters.

muppetkiller

Mmmm I think I'm going to go with whatever the Doctor at the time decided was best for the Patient and unborn child rather than reading the facts from the Media.

Impossible to get the full facts until a clear investigation is made.
Heart goes out to the Husband and family though. I think I actually worked with him a few years ago. Very nice man.

Edited :Sorry for spoiling Christmas for you Treha.

Treha

muppetkiller wrote: »

Mmmm I think I'm going to go with whatever the Doctor at the time decided was best for the Patient and unborn child rather than reading the facts from the Indo.

Yeah, it's the Irish Times. I know the text is small but, heavens, it's not that small.

Stheno

flynnlives wrote: »

Tomorrow's Irish Times is reporting that a woman died, having been refused a termination while having a miscarriage.
17 weeks pregnant, she was denied the termination because a faint foetal heartbeat could be detected.

I understand the lady succumbed to septicemia.

It was on Vincent Browne during the newspapers section.
Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"

It was also reported on rte radios "late debate"
Also i think the Indo have the same story.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7nlWHfCcAAPysa.jpg

there are no words to describe this...

Can't read the article, but that is just dreadful if true.

Time for the government to clearly legislate on this issue.

whiteandlight

Wind up/photoshop? Can't see any other confirmation of this

upstairs for coffee

Waiting for the "It's God's way/it's what God would have wanted" arguement :rolleyes:


My condolences to her and her family

cometogether

God almighty, that is incredible if true. What a horrible thing to happen, R.I.P to the poor woman

Cian92

Terrible, she asked for a medical induced abortion a few times but as the foetus still had a heartbeat she was refused and told that "this is a catholic country".

flutterflye

mackg

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Wind up/photoshop? Can't see any other confirmation of this

Thread on politics.ie too but that doesn't prove much.

Anyone confirm and supply some details?

flynnlives

FRONTPAGE OF TOMORROWS INDO

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7nfrEZCQAA_e1y.jpg:large

jonsnow

flynnlives wrote: »

Apparently the women was told "this is a Catholic country, we don't have abortion"

Would someone still really say that in this day and age.Technically we are not a catholic country we are a republic.Its time we made that a reality instead of this halfway house nod and a wink nowhereland that we are currently in we were are some hybrid catholpublic

Pride Fighter

To call the pro-lifers such a term is the biggest oxymoron I can think of. They are anti-life as evidenced by this, through their vile campaign have denied this woman life saving treatment.

The correct term for them is religious fundamentalist nutters who want Ireland to be a Theocracy that treats women with utter disdain. It is a disgrace they are cow towed to by so many in politics and the media.

Cian92

Most certainly real was on Vincent Browne earlier when discussing tomorrows papers.

K-9

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Wind up/photoshop? Can't see any other confirmation of this

Times and Indo both have it as their main story going on the Vincent Browne story. If she was told she couldn't have an abortion because Ireland is Catholic, should be instant dismissal. It would seem the baby was in distress and died shortly after.

Heart goes out to the poor man and the families involved.

af_thefragile

Needs more info and a proper enquiry into what exactly happened.
Usually when something as such happens, the patient would have gotten into trouble anyway because of many other factors surrounding the case, its never just one thing that causes someone to die.

And I believe this would also make great story for all the pro-choicers to beat the pro-lifers with...

LD 50

Stheno wrote: »

Can't read the article, but that is just dreadful if true.

Time for the government to clearly legislate on this issue.

Hasn't the Irish public already voted 5 times on the matter. You want to blame anyone, for once it shouldn't be the gov't, but the catholic church, who's influence still affects the country.
It is a shame that this happened, when from initial reports suggest that she may have been saved with an abortion.

Stheno

LD 50 wrote: »

Hasn't the Irish public already voted 5 times on the matter. You want to blame anyone, for once it shouldn't be the gov't, but the catholic church, who's influence still affects the country.
It is a shame that this happened, when from initial reports suggest that she may have been saved with an abortion.

The Irish public have clearly returned a mandate to government to legislate in just such a situation like this, successive governments have failed to do so.

rainbow kirby

Galway Pro-Choice statement

For Release: Woman Dies in UCHG after Being Denied a Life-Saving Abortion

On Sunday the 28th of October, Savita Praveen died at UCHG after being denied a termination which would most likely have saved her life. She was 31 years old, married for four years and hoping to start a family.

If legislation is not introduced immediately, more women will die. Under the X Case ruling, women in Ireland are legally entitled to an abortion when it is necessary to save their life. However, legislation has never been passed to reflect this. It is the failure of successive governments to do so that led to Savita’s death.

Savita was first admitted to the hospital on October 21st complaining of severe back pain. Her doctor initially told her that she would be fine, but she refused to go home. It became clear that her waters had broken, and she was having a miscarriage (spontaneous abortion). She was told that the foetus had no chance of survival, and it would all be over within a few hours.

However, her condition did not take its expected course, and the foetus remained inside her body. Although it was evident that it could not survive, a foetal heartbeat was detected. For this reason her repeated requests to remove the foetus were denied. By Tuesday it was clear that her condition was deteriorating. She had developed a fever, and collapsed when attempting to walk. The cervix had now been fully open for nearly 72 hours, creating a danger of infection comparable to an untreated open head wound. She developed septicaemia.

Despite this, the foetus was not removed until Wednesday afternoon, after the foetal heartbeat had stopped. Immediately after the procedure she was taken to the high dependency unit. Her condition never improved. She died at 1.09am on Sunday the 28th of October.

Had the foetus been removed when it became clear that it could not survive, her cervix would have been closed and her chance of infection dramatically reduced. Leaving a woman's cervix open constitutes a clear risk to her life. What is unclear is how doctors are expected to act in this situation.

Rachel Donnelly, Galway Pro-Choice spokesperson stated:
“This was an obstetric emergency which should have been dealt with in a routine manner. Yet Irish doctors are restrained from making obvious medical decisions by a fear of potentially severe consequences. As the European Court of Human Rights ruled, as long as the 1861 Act remains in place, alongside a complete political unwillingness to touch the issue, pregnant women will continue to be unsafe in this country.”

Sarah McCarthy, Galway Pro-Choice member said:
“Galway Pro-Choice believes that Ireland must legislate for freely available abortion for all women. Deaths like Savita's are the most severe consequence of the criminalisation of abortion, yet it has countless adverse effects. We must reflect long and hard on the implications of Savita’s tragic and untimely passing, and we must act to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again.”

mackg

af_thefragile wrote: »

Needs more info and a proper enquiry into what exactly happened.
Usually when something as such happens, the patient would have gotten into trouble anyway because of many other factors surrounding the case, its never just one thing that causes someone to die.

And I believe this would also make great story for all the pro-choicers to beat the pro-lifers with...

What?

flynnlives

From Galway Pro Choice:

For Release: Woman Dies in UCHG after Being Denied a Life-Saving Abortion

On Sunday the 28th of October, Savita Praveen died at UCHG after being denied a termination which would most likely have saved her life. She was 31 years old, married for four years and hoping to start a family.

If legislation is not introduced immediately, more women will die. Under the X Case ruling, women in Ireland are legally entitled to an abortion when it is necessary to save their life. However, legislation has never been passed to reflect this. It is the failure of successive governments to do so that led to Savita’s death.

Savita was first admitted to the hospital on October 21st complaining of severe back pain. Her doctor initially told her that she would be fine, but she refused to go home. It became clear that her waters had broken, and she was having a miscarriage (spontaneous abortion). She was told that the foetus had no chance of survival, and it would all be over within a few hours.

However, her condition did not take its expected course, and the foetus remained inside her body. Although it was evident that it could not survive, a foetal heartbeat was detected. For this reason her repeated requests to remove the foetus were denied. By Tuesday it was clear that her condition was deteriorating. She had developed a fever, and collapsed when attempting to walk. The cervix had now been fully open for nearly 72 hours, creating a danger of infection comparable to an untreated open head wound. She developed septicaemia.

Despite this, the foetus was not removed until Wednesday afternoon, after the foetal heartbeat had stopped. Immediately after the procedure she was taken to the high dependency unit. Her condition never improved. She died at 1.09am on Sunday the 28th of October.

Had the foetus been removed when it became clear that it could not survive, her cervix would have been closed and her chance of infection dramatically reduced. Leaving a woman's cervix open constitutes a clear risk to her life. What is unclear is how doctors are expected to act in this situation.

Rachel Donnelly, Galway Pro-Choice spokesperson stated:
“This was an obstetric emergency which should have been dealt with in a routine manner. Yet Irish doctors are restrained from making obvious medical decisions by a fear of potentially severe consequences. As the European Court of Human Rights ruled, as long as the 1861 Act remains in place, alongside a complete political unwillingness to touch the issue, pregnant women will continue to be unsafe in this country.”

Sarah McCarthy, Galway Pro-Choice member said:
“Galway Pro-Choice believes that Ireland must legislate for freely available abortion for all women. Deaths like Savita's are the most severe consequence of the criminalisation of abortion, yet it has countless adverse effects. We must reflect long and hard on the implications of Savita’s tragic and untimely passing, and we must act to ensure that such a tragedy never happens again.”

For more information please contact Galway Pro-Choice on 087 706 0715 or Sarah McCarthy on 085 7477 907

http://www.facebook.com/GalwayProChoice

Corkfeen

LD 50 wrote: »

Hasn't the Irish public already voted 5 times on the matter. You want to blame anyone, for once it shouldn't be the gov't, but the catholic church, who's influence still affects the country.
It is a shame that this happened, when from initial reports suggest that she may have been saved with an abortion.

Yep and it passed. Except each government has been frightened of rocking the boat by actually getting around to legislating for such cases. The legislation is required for the abortion to be made available I believe. So i'd place the blame on successive governments being gutless and fearing that they will lose some of the Catholic vote.

af_thefragile

mackg wrote: »

What?

Yes. Its never just one reason that a patient dies.
Its usually multiple factors. She could have gotten an infection even if the fetus was removed and the wound was closed early.

Anyway, it still needs a full enquiry cuz none of us really know what exactly happened.

partyatmygaff

It's hard to comment on what is just a headline so i'll keep it short. I highly doubt anyone would refuse an abortion on moral grounds if there was a clear danger to the mother's life. It's not something that needs to be mused on or needs debate. If nothing can be done to save the mother other than an abortion, it's unfortunate but perfectly warranted. Even the most diehard anti-abortionist would probably agree with that. There's no point trying to protect the tiny chance of survival that the child has when the mother is facing something like septicaemia.

At a guess of what likely happened... the doctors saw an uncomplicated miscarriage and assumed it will all end as normal. Unforeseen complication after complication saw that the foetus remained in the uterus and the doctors (Presumably trying to avoid taking responsibility for what could potentially be a legal headache) held out on the hope that things would resolve itself and didn't intervene until it too late which allowed the infection to progress to septicaemia. It's also quite possible that even if the foetus was aborted right away, the infection might still have progressed to septicaemia.

It would have made sense to have her on a prophylactic course of antibiotics from the first day of her stay in hospital but with just headlines and a few snippets of information, there's not much to say just yet other than condolences to her friends and family.

irishfeen

This is a disgusting and tragic story, if it turns out to be true the doctor who made the decision should be charged with manslaughter. Why hasn't the 1992 high court decision been written into the constitution yet? ...yet another example of our cowardly elected representatives not wanting to shake the boat on an abortion issue.

K-9

af_thefragile wrote: »

Needs more info and a proper enquiry into what exactly happened.
Usually when something as such happens, the patient would have gotten into trouble anyway because of many other factors surrounding the case, its never just one thing that causes someone to die.

And I believe this would also make great story for all the pro-choicers to beat the pro-lifers with...

I'd be quite pro life and have no problem in admitting there are serious issues in Irish hospitals with cases like this and indeed other scenarios where there is no hope for the foetus. Usually isn't really good enough in cases like this womans.

KKkitty

Just when you'd think the stronghold the Catholic Church had on this country was waning it goes backwards. Absolutely disgraceful that this poor woman had to die because of a procedure that's still deemed illegal in this country.

flynnlives

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

Speaking from Belgaum in the Karnataka region of southwest India, Mr Halappanavar said an internal examination was performed when she first presented.

“The doctor told us the cervix was fully dilated, amniotic fluid was leaking and unfortunately the baby wouldn’t survive.” The doctor, he says, said it should be over in a few hours. There followed three days, he says, of the foetal heartbeat being checked several times a day.

“Savita was really in agony. She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, ‘As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can’t do anything’.

“Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

“The next morning I said she was so sick and asked again that they just end it, but they said they couldn’t.”

Critically ill

At lunchtime the foetal heart had stopped and Ms Halappanavar was brought to theatre to have the womb contents removed. “When she came out she was talking okay but she was very sick. That’s the last time I spoke to her.”

At 11 pm he got a call from the hospital. “They said they were shifting her to intensive care. Her heart and pulse were low, her temperature was high. She was sedated and critical but stable. She stayed stable on Friday but by 7pm on Saturday they said her heart, kidneys and liver weren’t functioning. She was critically ill. That night, we lost her.”

Mr Halappanavar took his wife’s body home on Thursday, November 1st, where she was cremated and laid to rest on November 3rd.

B.A._Baracus

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Wind up/photoshop? Can't see any other confirmation of this

mackg wrote: »

Thread on politics.ie too but that doesn't prove much. Anyone confirm and supply some details?

You got to love boards.ie dont you?
A person posts a story along with a screen shot of a newspaper, also states it was mentioned on a popular tv3 programe tonight .... Only to get met with accusations and proof of validation required

But yet the amount of "this happened to me today" threads in after hours are taken as fact :rolleyes:

murphzor

No worries lads, we can't be upsetting the baby Jesus.

af_thefragile

I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.

Hence why I'm skeptical about the way the story is presented. Sounds more like pro-choice propaganda than a tragedy (which no doubt it is).

Waiting until I can read the article in the newspaper before I pass judgement, but if what is said is true, then surely that would be grounds for dismissal and possible prosecution? Obviously the latter might not be true, but surely the former.

super_furry

Just more suffering in Ireland that can be laid at the door of the Catholic Church.

Gbear

I find it hard to believe that a doctor would refuse to carry out an abortion when there was clear danger to the mother.

Whatever bureaucracy or fear of professional censure would surely be overwhelmingly trumped by the most basic duty of a doctor to their patient?


Something is very clearly amiss here. The lack of relevant legislation is neither an excuse nor an explanation as to how a doctor could act this way.

Jev/N

irishfeen wrote: »

This is a disgusting and tragic story, if it turns out to be true the doctor who made the decision should be charged with manslaughter.

IIRC the same would have been argued if they had carried out the procedure and that would have created an alternative sh*tstorm.

However, in that instance, the poor woman would at least still be alive.

K-9

af_thefragile wrote: »

I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.

Hence why I'm skeptical about the way the story is presented. Sounds more like pro-choice propaganda than a tragedy (which no doubt it is).

That isn't really the issue, if the consultant had said there was no chance of the baby surviving he should have agreed to her wishes and performed an "abortion".

Cookie_Monster

Gbear wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that a doctor would refuse to carry out an abortion when there was clear danger to the mother.

depends on what he valued more, his nutjob religious belief or his Hippocratic oath.

Berlin at night

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

Here's the enlarged version to read.

Just read the article. So she asked for the termination but was refused on the grounds that it's a Catholic country.

Absolutely disgusting.

Hospitals and any hospital staff should not have any pro-life or pro-choice agendas and should focus solely on what is right for the patient regardless of personal feelings.

Stheno

af_thefragile wrote: »

I'm pretty sure any doctor wouldn't just stand there and let the mother die in the very faint chance of saving a fetus which if very premature wouldn't have a high chance of survival anyway.

Hence why I'm skeptical about the way the story is presented. Sounds more like pro-choice propaganda than a tragedy (which no doubt it is).

It's all over the times site now.

You've the link above.

Then

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1114/1224326573964.html

And the pre release already quoted

irishfeen

Jev/N wrote: »

IIRC the same would have been argued if they had carried out the procedure and that would have created an alternative sh*tstorm.

However, in that instance, the poor woman would at least still be alive.

Surely if a termination had taken place it would have been a private matter between a doctor and the patient and would never have came to light.... I would be hoping anyway.

mackg

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

You got to love boards.ie dont you?
A person posts a story along with a screen shot of a newspaper, also states it was mentioned on a popular tv3 programe tonight .... Only to get met with accusations and proof of validation required

But yet the amount of "this happened to me today" threads in after hours are taken as fact :rolleyes:

Bit of a difference between "this happened to me today" and a major news story don't you think? Plus I was the one that mentioned it was on VB but was looking for someone else to confirm it which they did. Don't let that get in the way of an irrelevant whinge though.

af_thefragile

K-9 wrote: »

I'd be quite pro life and have no problem in admitting there are serious issues in Irish hospitals with cases like this and indeed other scenarios where there is no hope for the foetus. Usually isn't really good enough in cases like this womans.

But such scenarios are never as black and white. Its not that if the fetus was removed early she wouldn't have ended up getting an infection and septicaemia. There are many risks and complications associated with miscarriage. There might be some issue of poor protocols and guidelines for acting in such situations which is more of an issue for the HSE to deal with to bring in proper guidelines for when such a situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is don't make it a issue that pro-choicers use as propaganda to beat up the pro-lifers and the catholic church with.

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

admiralofthefleet

we really have to work as hard as possible to dismantle the hold that the catholic cult of pure and utter evil has over this country

Berlin at night

Unreal, a tragedy like this could have been avoided if the church kept its nose out medical practice. I'm so glad I'm an athiest.

TheBegotten

First, condolences to her family. Horrible thing to happen, abortion or none.
Second, I'm suspicious. I'm fairly pro-choice, and this just seems very sensationalist to me. The media have a way of exaggerating things, so I think its best at this stage to wait for the official report, rather than bayonet charging the entire pro-life lobby.
They're a bunch of gits if this IS all its being made out to be though.

EDIT: Although that Times article seems to point the finger more at the doctors than the HSE/Government...I wouldn't think "It's a Catholic country" would be grounds for a breaking of the Hippocratic Oath.