Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Dodge

Just realised the girl in the X case is about the same age as me. I Hope she's doing well today

billybudd

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well the responsibility is on him/her now isn't it, with a patient in a grave?

My point exactly. and further if it was just the baby who died through termination because the doctor felt it was the right call and because the babys heart was still beating then he could be facing a charge of manslaughter and thats the reality of this ambiguous law, this is the law that needs clarifying.

HellFireClub

mhge wrote: »

The mother doesn't need to be at risk of losing her life to need termination of an unviable pregnancy. It may pose risks to her health, physical or mental - often it's not immediate and you are left to carry a dying baby or to know that it will die the moment it is born. You're a walking coffin. The legislation forces these women, already in mourning, to travel in order to terminate, and denies them aftercare in Ireland. Savita could not travel but could have been recognised as being at risk to her health "only" and therefore denied. All according to the law.

Clearly an argument that cannot stand up when the patient is now deceased.

otto_26

mrsbyrne wrote: »

These 51 pages explain exactly why no one in governmemt wants to touch the abortion question.:(
Hysteria from both sides of the debate.
All we have at the moment is one side of this terribly sad story, yet here we are screaming at one another about the Catholic Church, having doctors struck off, or even charged with manslaughter,Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, Left, Right.
Abuse and insults flying left right and centre.
And next week or whenever the facts are revealed it could turn out to be a tragic but unavoidable death.
The poor girl might have contracted septiceamia any way, we dont know because the facts aren't available.
But dont let me stop you all using her demise to tear each other a new a**h*le...

Thanks for making me feel bad Mrs Byrne.. But your 100% right well said.

ThinkAboutIt

I see this has made the international news in most countries now. Another day to be embarrassed to be Irish.

RIP.

robman60

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It has been nearly 30 years since the constitutional ban on abortion was put in. Since then, there have been 4 more referendums on abortion, and every one has been won by the side for broadening women's access to abortion, or preventing further restrictions on abortion. So it's hardly a resounding no to abortion from the electorate.

While I recognise that what you've said is factually correct, I think you'll agree that the risk of suicide case has been presented in a biased way. Studies have shown that a woman is far more likely to commit suicide after an abortion than after giving birth. These cases don't and won't get publicised in the media for obvious reasons, but it's definitely happening.

Tragedy

Why aren't people waiting for the autopsy report before they become 'outraged' that she died due to being refused an abortion? No-one currently knows what exactly killed her, how/when/why the septicemia set in, and if a termination when she first requested it would have made any difference. It's likely it would, but no-one knows.

As for legislating the X case, from what I'm told this would result in legislation that abortion is legal when there is a serious risk to the mother's life. Was that apparent here? Would legislation have made any difference whatsoever, or would the Doctor have decided that there was a risk to health (no abortion) but not a risk to life (abortion)?

Also, how much of this is down to the Doctor's actions and individual beliefs(the comment on Ireland being a Catholic country strikes me as being really ****ing odd)?

I'm 100% pro choice - but I find the instant outrage and agenda setting despite the lack of any clear facts...disquieting and a little bit insulting to her memory. She just died, people using her as an excuse to protest because of their own views...well, yeah.

strandroad

HellFireClub wrote: »

Clearly an argument that cannot stand up when the patient is now deceased.

I'm sure it's of great consolation to her family that they could have saved her if they could time travel and prove she's going to die.

The doctors gambled with her life as not to stick their necks out; for a pregnancy that was not viable to start with.

And of course you ignored the fact that women are forced to carry unviable or travel to terminate.

Nodin

Angie_Baby wrote: »

she could indeed, but was in no fit state to travel i imagine.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43155122/ns/health-childrens_health/t/million-girls-aborted-india-years/#.UKPQ8ofcmSo

Whats the point of that link?

ibarelycare

HellFireClub wrote: »

You said the church influences laws in this country that prohibit a termination where a featus is not viable. I said that where there is a risk to the continuing life of the mother, there is no law that prevents the best surgical care being made available to treat the mother, even where that care results in the medical termination of her pregnancy.

Either a law exists that stops a medical practitioner from providing best care to a pregnant woman in this country for the purposes of treating her and sustaining her life, or else it doesn't. You claimed that such a law seems to exist and that the Catholic Church and its influence is behind this law being on the statute book... I disagree...

I said nothing of the sort. I said that the people of this country were turning their back on the Catholic Church in their droves and that people are much more liberal. Both these factors means that there would be much more support for the pro-choice movement than there was 20 years ago.

I never said anything about any laws existing.



Anyway I'm on my way to the protest now. Hope there'll be a good turnout.

Galwayguy35

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

I see this has made the international news in most countries now. Another day to be embarrassed to be Irish.

RIP.

RIP to the woman but personally I'd never be embarrassed to be Irish.

billybudd

Tragedy wrote: »

Why aren't people waiting for the autopsy report before they become 'outraged' that she died due to being refused an abortion? No-one currently knows what exactly killed her, how/when/why the septicemia set in, and if a termination when she first requested it would have made any difference. It's likely it would, but no-one knows.

As for legislating the X case, from what I'm told this would result in legislation that abortion is legal when there is a serious risk to the mother's life. Was that apparent here? Would legislation have made any difference whatsoever, or would the Doctor have decided that there was a risk to health (no abortion) but not a risk to life (abortion)?

Also, how much of this is down to the Doctor's actions and individual beliefs(the comment on Ireland being a Catholic country strikes me as being really ****ing odd)?

I'm 100% pro choice - but I find the instant outrage and agenda setting despite the lack of any clear facts...disquieting and a little bit insulting to her memory. She just died, people using her as an excuse to protest because of their own views...well, yeah.

Because regardless of what happened to this lady it is a debate that is long over due.

Grimebox

I'm really on the fence with this issue. While I do support the murder of babies, I do not want women to have any choice in the matter


mod: banned..

HellFireClub

Angie_Baby wrote: »

couldn't agree more.
why we are still having this debate is beyond me. i thought we voted on this abortion thing a few times now.
and it (abortion on demand) was robustly rejected each time.

this should have been dealt with as a medical procedure/emergency, if/when the woman's life was in jeopardy.
if the doctor felt her life was not at risk, then he fuucked up and made a bad call. he should have to answer for that.

You'd have to also wonder, in a country where there is ANOTHER 3.5 billion Euro adjustment coming down the tracks, and in a country where the HSE have already made huge cut backs to front line services, in a country where disabled children are having their nappy allowance taken off them, you would have to ask yourself did the woman have access to the best medical facilities & surgical test facilities, that were necessary in order to protect her life when she found herself in such a medically vulnerable situation.

billybudd

:eek:

Grimebox wrote: »

I'm really on the fence with this issue. While I do support the murder of babies, I do not want women to have any choice in the matter

HellFireClub

ibarelycare wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort. I said that the people of this country were turning their back on the Catholic Church in their droves and that people are much more liberal. Both these factors means that there would be much more support for the pro-choice movement than there was 20 years ago.

I never said anything about any laws existing.



Anyway I'm on my way to the protest now. Hope there'll be a good turnout.

What exactly are you protesting about I have to ask?!?

Pride Fighter

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well done to the scum in Youth Defence, they have blood on their hands.

I presume youth defence would say the same about people who support abortion.

dr.bollocko

Tragedy wrote: »

I'm 100% pro choice - but I find the instant outrage and agenda setting despite the lack of any clear facts...disquieting and a little bit insulting to her memory. She just died, people using her as an excuse to protest because of their own views...well, yeah.

This exactly IMO.

The manner in which it is retold in the international press shows the willingness to push an agenda rather than anything else. That strikes me as incredibly unsavoury.

ZeRoY

robman60 wrote: »

Health is removed as it creates a legal mind field and effectively means abortion on demand

Perfect. Yes.

dr.bollocko

mod:

Angie baby banned / re-reg.

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well in fairness, this debate is a wider debate than this thread and I'm personally SICK of left wing slags in this country like the kind in the ULA, trying to ride roughshod over people who have stated a democratic opinion on this subject several times.

That's funny because I'm 34 and apart from the piffling Twenty-fifth Amendment referendum in 2002 I've never had the chance to vote for or against abortion. Also, societies change and laws can change to reflect this. Look at the legalisation of homosexuality and divorce. What is wrong with giving the current generation the right to decide?

HellFireClub wrote: »

I have to say, our current government must be absolutely loving this. We've spent the last 2 months having a completely unnecessary discussion and poorly timed discussion on a children's referendum... The polls were not 12 hours closed last Sunday when Eamon Gilmore started telling us that now we needed to talk about a referendum on gay marriage! And now this abortion topic is back centre stage again.

And why is it back on centre stage? Because it was left unresolved for 20 years by successive socially inept governments and people are tired of it. And a referendum on gay marriage! Imagine that! Allowing same sex couples to have the same rights that others have! Crazy! And yet if we have to have a referendum to sort out this issue then we should have a referendum. What is your problem with that? If you don't believe homosexual people should be treated fairly and equitably in a just society then you vote no.

HellFireClub wrote: »

Very convenient isn't it, the way we always seem to have something to occupy ourselves with in this country by way of the national conversation, besides the small little pressing matter of half a million people out of work, of tens of thousands emigrating out of the hopelessness that has now consumed this country at the moment, the hundreds of people and families every month falling further into food poverty.

Are we not allowed to be thinking about effecting changes to society because there's a recession going on? Obviously what is happening in terms of employment and the economy but that should not stop a government being able to create a platform for ALL the issues that affect our society.

ZeRoY

Angie_Baby wrote: »

we dont want abortion on demand.
and we dont want this,

Ah? Who's "we"?

Khannie

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume youth defence would say the same about people who support abortion.

I think it's a silly post in the first place. They have nothing to do with this sad incident.

What an embarrassing country. Not just because of this tragedy, but that the fact that randomers need to come in and re-affirm their position in which THEIR opinion counts in the choice of what some random woman from India should do with her baby.

It's pathetic.

strandroad

robman60 wrote: »

While I recognise that what you've said is factually correct, I think you'll agree that the risk of suicide case has been presented in a biased way. Studies have shown that a woman is far more likely to commit suicide after an abortion than after giving birth. These cases don't and won't get publicised in the media for obvious reasons, but it's definitely happening.

And the circumstances (women who terminate are more likely to have no partner or family support, be ill or deprived than women who give birth - which affects their life expectancy) have nothing to do with these results.

ibarelycare

HellFireClub wrote: »

What exactly are you protesting about I have to ask?!?

About the government not bringing into legislation what the people of ireland voted in favour of...allowing for termination of a fetus when the mother's life is at risk. It's been referred to numerous times on this thread

TwoShedsJackson

Dodge wrote: »

Just realised the girl in the X case is about the same age as me. I Hope she's doing well today

If she actually exists, of course. (c) Fuinseog 2012.

Khannie

Khannie wrote: »

I think it's a silly post in the first place. They have nothing to do with this sad incident.

Populist rabble, real sheep mentality with the liking of the post.

Benny_Cake

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well in fairness, this debate is a wider debate than this thread and I'm personally SICK of left wing slags in this country like the kind in the ULA, trying to ride roughshod over people who have stated a democratic opinion on this subject several times.

I have to say, our current government must be absolutely loving this. We've spent the last 2 months having a completely unnecessary discussion and poorly timed discussion on a children's referendum... The polls were not 12 hours closed last Sunday when Eamon Gilmore started telling us that now we needed to talk about a referendum on gay marriage! And now this abortion topic is back centre stage again.

Very convenient isn't it, the way we always seem to have something to occupy ourselves with in this country by way of the national conversation, besides the small little pressing matter of half a million people out of work, of tens of thousands emigrating out of the hopelessness that has now consumed this country at the moment, the hundreds of people and families every month falling further into food poverty.

Well, we are bitter, aren't we?

What exactly is left-wing about allowing people to express their opinion in the form of a referendum? Previous referenda on abortion all differed in some form or another. As for gay marriage, it mightn't be important to you, but it is important to a lot of gay citizens in this country. A recession doesn't detract from our responsibilities and obligation as citizens. In any case, the ULA or any other group are entitled to campaign on any issue they see fit, even if a majority disagree with them on it.

I find it deeply ironic that you seem to place all the problems of our country at the doors of the Labour Party, the ULA (who are as different as chalk and cheese), and people on the left in general. I'd consider myself to be fairly centre-left but I'm against abortion on demand.

Tragedy

billybudd wrote: »

Because regardless of what happened to this lady it is a debate that is long over due.

So the ends justify the means?

The abortion debate is truly long overdue, abusing a dead woman's memory to push for it isn't the right way to do it.

Stinicker

Of course the woman should be given an abortion to save her life. Abortion as a lifestyle choice is murder and the ban on abortion should continue except in cases like this where the mothers life is at risk.

Pro-Abortionists trying to score a cheap political point off the sad death of this misfortunate woman should be ashamed of themselves. The liberals will try everything to force the abortion issue over this.

HellFireClub

kunst nugget wrote: »

Are we not allowed to be thinking about effecting changes to society because there's a recession going on? Obviously what is happening in terms of employment and the economy but that should not stop a government being able to create a platform for ALL the issues that affect our society.

I personally think it is completely unacceptable that we let our politicians feed us, in terms of where we are going, in this manner. It couldn't be clearer that there is a policy in place now of going in a very serial manner, from one referendum to another, almost trying to look busy and pass the time, meanwhile the country falls a bit further into the economic shíts with every passing week? We seriously need to start getting our priorities right in this country or it will be last one leaving the place turn the light off.

ZeRoY

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

What an embarrassing country. Not just because of this tragedy, but that the fact that randomers need to come in and re-affirm their position in which THEIR opinion counts in the choice of what some random woman from India should do with her baby.

It's pathetic.

Sadly thats how it works, We, the people, decide for others. In the matter of Abortion it should be up to the person, but thats the my personal opinion - until the question is put to the people it will remain a mess.

billybudd

Tragedy wrote: »

So the ends justify the means?

The abortion debate is truly long overdue, abusing a dead woman's memory to push for it isn't the right way to do it.

I agree, but the catalyst for change is often because of a terrible event, sadly.

ZeRoY

Tragedy wrote: »

The abortion debate is truly long overdue, abusing a dead woman's memory to push for it isn't the right way to do it.

Its precisely the right moment to push the issue on the forefront. Its when tragic things like this happens that people are the most receptive to the problem at hand.

HellFireClub

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Well, we are bitter, aren't we?

What exactly is left-wing about allowing people to express their opinion in the form of a referendum? Previous referenda on abortion all differed in some form or another. As for gay marriage, it mightn't be important to you, but it is important to a lot of gay citizens in this country. A recession doesn't detract from our responsibilities and obligation as citizens. In any case, the ULA or any other group are entitled to campaign on any issue they see fit, even if a majority disagree with them on it.

I find it deeply ironic that you seem to place all the problems of our country at the doors of the Labour Party, the ULA (who are as different as chalk and cheese), and people on the left in general. I'd consider myself to be fairly centre-left but I'm against abortion on demand.

No I'm not bitter at all, I'm just sick of the sheer sight of incompetence in this country and people like the ULA out there tonight organising a protest at the Dail in relation to the tragic death of this poor woman. A protest about what? The lack of care she received, or did she receive the very best of care? We don't know, so therefore the protest is just shít stírring. Same can be said for medical negligence, was it present or not? We don't know, but sure let's hold a protest over it anyway!

old hippy

Stinicker wrote: »

Of course the woman should be given an abortion to save her life. Abortion as a lifestyle choice is murder and the ban on abortion should continue except in cases like this where the mothers life is at risk.

Pro-Abortionists trying to score a cheap political point off the sad death of this misfortunate woman should be ashamed of themselves. The liberals will try everything to force the abortion issue over this.

You should be ashamed of yourself for scoring cheap political points about "liberals" and the bobbins mantra about lifestyle choice.

As I said earlier, this is a turning point. Let's hope out of this tragedy comes something positive.

Tragedy

ZeRoY wrote: »

Its precisely the right moment to push the issue on the forefront. Its when tragic things like this happens that people are the most receptive to the problem at hand.

Except no-one has any idea if the X case/abortion would have had any impact in this individual case, yet people (including yourself it seems) are jumping on a bandwagon incredibly fast using this case as an example of why their agenda needs to be listened to.

There is a right way to do things, and a wrong way.

This, imo, is a slimy, immoral and abhorrent way to push the abortion debate into the public sphere on the back of a death that no-one even understands yet. If people actually cared about this woman's death, they wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions and make assumptions.

Khannie

HellFireClub wrote: »

We don't know, but sure let's hold a protest over it anyway!

Sure why would you let the facts get in the way of a good rabble rabble rabble?

miss no stars

All credit to him, one of my local TDs has replied to me quite promptly. He indicated that as the government has to report back to the Council of Europe by the end of November, he expects that the government will act promptly to legislate after that. Dare I say it, I kind of believe him?

In other analysis, he has actually done his best to answer my rather direct question about when a bill is to be put before the dail to legislate for the x case. He also stated that he believes it should be extended beyond the x case to cases where the foetus has fatal abnormalities.

It's good to see who replies and what their stances are. 1 out of 3 on the day of the email. Well done him.

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

I personally think it is completely unacceptable that we let our politicians feed us, in terms of where we are going, in this manner. It couldn't be clearer that there is a policy in place now of going in a very serial manner, from one referendum to another, almost trying to look busy and pass the time, meanwhile the country falls a bit further into the economic shíts with every passing week? We seriously need to start getting our priorities right in this country or it will be last one leaving the place turn the light off.

Or could it be that we might have a government that is responding to wishes of the people do deal with these social issues which the FF govts totally ignored while the wine was flowing. I can't see the problem with putting our house in order both economically and socially. What problem do you have with my generation and younger having a say on abortion? Or gay marriage?

robman60

Stinicker wrote: »

Of course the woman should be given an abortion to save her life. Abortion as a lifestyle choice is murder and the ban on abortion should continue except in cases like this where the mothers life is at risk.

Pro-Abortionists trying to score a cheap political point off the sad death of this misfortunate woman should be ashamed of themselves. The liberals will try everything to force the abortion issue over this.

One of the best posts I've read. People getting cheap political points on the back of this woman's death is sickening.

There isn't as much uproar when a woman is killed by an abortionist's error or a child is born alive and left in a metal bowl until it dies. Or that a disabled child can be killed until birth in the UK. These cases are all as indefensible as this poor woman's death, but the media are clearly "favouring" certain agendas.

Hippies!

Somewhere in the middle east right now there's a guy reading this on a news website and he's saying..."those barbaric backward westerners, hey johnny, johnny...look at this, they said "this is a catholic country" and let her die...i'm at a loss for words"


Probably not but you get the idea.




As in we're always thinking that we're great and so civilised and like, you know this doesn't eh display that.



So yea.

old hippy

goodie2shoes wrote: »

why?

You really don't know, do you?

It is a turning point because of the scale of the story being reported, finally, we might be dragged (in regards to abortion) kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

We can no longer brush it under the carpet.

Mardy Bum

HellFireClub wrote: »

No I'm not bitter at all, I'm just sick of the sheer sight of incompetence in this country and people like the ULA out there tonight organising a protest at the Dail in relation to the tragic death of this poor woman. A protest about what? The lack of care she received, or did she receive the very best of care? We don't know, so therefore the protest is just shít stírring. Same can be said for medical negligence, was it present or not? We don't know, but sure let's hold a protest over it anyway!

It is a protest about the lack of legislation regarding the matter. There would be no medical negligence if the area was not so grey. The doctor has to make the call if there is a chance of death and sometimes doctors will not be 100% sure and so the choice should be made then by the patient. In this incidence the patient had no choice. Once legislation is in place then incidents like this will not occur.

old hippy

robman60 wrote: »

One of the best posts I've read. People getting cheap political points on the back of this woman's death is sickening.

There isn't as much uproar when a woman is killed by an abortionist's error or a child is born alive and left in a metal bowl until it dies. Or that a disabled child can be killed until birth in the UK. These cases are all as indefensible as this poor woman's death, but the media are clearly "favouring" certain agendas.

There isn't? Oh but there is. And we have the likes of ye to alert us. :rolleyes:

Hippies!

old hippy wrote: »

:L

NinjaK

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well done to the scum in Youth Defence, they have blood on their hands.

why?

Tragedy

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It is a protest about the lack of legislation regarding the matter. There would be no medical negligence if the area was not so grey. The doctor has to make the call if there is a chance of death and sometimes doctors will not be 100% sure and so the choice should be made then by the patient. In this incidence the patient had no choice. Once legislation is in place then incidents like this will not occur.

You quite obviously don't understand the X case to be honest, judging by how many factual errors in regards to it you made in such a short post.

HellFireClub

kunst nugget wrote: »

Or could it be that we might have a government that is responding to wishes of the people do deal with these social issues which the FF govts totally ignored while the wine was flowing. I can't see the problem with putting our house in order both economically and socially. What problem do you have with my generation and younger having a say on abortion? Or gay marriage?

I'm probably younger than you so you can get off your high youthful horse there for a start. Where are all these people that you can see calling for referendum after referendum while the country is economically falling apart at the seams? It's been one after the other, Lisbon 1, Lisbon II, some other load of nonsenical shít about Oireachtas enquiries, a childrens referendum that was so irellevant that only 30% of the electorate bothered turning out to vote in, put out there by a government that is impoverishing families every day and driving them into poverty with these policies of austerity and a failure to deal with a now massive unemployment problem.

You think I want to see mates, family, friends of friends, suffering poverty, enduring completely unnecessary hardship, but I'll console myself with the fact that the gay lad across the road can now get married if he wants, not that he can afford to because the poor lad is broke 'cos he hasn't worked in 4 years?!?

Same for this abortion referendum nonsense, it's a distraction that is continually thrown out there by people who want abortion on demand services in Ireland. And our government, who are hopelessly incapable of dealing with our economic problems, will be only too happy to keep us all occupied with this and all sorts of other side issues until their pension entitlements are safe and in the bag.