Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

ibarelycare

Great turnout on Kildare Street in case anyone's wondering!

robman60

old hippy wrote: »

There isn't? Oh but there is. And we have the likes of ye to alert us. :rolleyes:

There's very little reporting in the media. I've read your posts in the past and I know you have no acceptance for opinions that don't match yours. My point was merely that this has featured internationally while similarly horrific cases involving abortion get literally no international (or even national) coverage.

poeticseraphim

robman60 wrote: »

One of the best posts I've read. People getting cheap political points on the back of this woman's death is sickening.

There isn't as much uproar when a woman is killed by an abortionist's error or a child is born alive and left in a metal bowl until it dies. Or that a disabled child can be killed until birth in the UK. These cases are all as indefensible as this poor woman's death, but the media are clearly "favouring" certain agendas.

No the majority of the Irish people are favouring an agenda.....the reason your side will not consent to a referendum where abortion on demand is the question is because YOU KNOW Irish people would allow it.

That is the cold fact. Irish people are socially liberal as a majority. We have civil partnerships for gay people and would allow marriage if let.

You just cannot accept the Ireland of today because you are not a part of the majority.

You guys are hilarious...it is the Dublin media bias...no the INTERNATIONAL media bias....no the electorate bias...no the worldwide electorate bias...

You don't get it...the people of the world disagree with you.

People WANT abortion in the UK...the majority want it in America and in Europe...


We WANT it here ...or at least a referendum where we have the choice.


It is not an agenda ..it is the will of the people.


And no they don't care about the fictionalized will of a tadpole.

The majority are biased...yes that is there position and we have an agenda...

I would wager people would go further to cover unviable fetuses , rape incest , and where the HEALTH and not just the life of the mother is at risk.

And i believe the majority would favour abortion on demand in the first trimester. And yes we have seen abortion pictures and films.


It is not a secret agenda ....it is an open attempt to rectify a human rights crisis.

The 21st century is pro-choice.....

The media is reflecting the views of the Irish people. And to be honest it is being quite conservative.

HellFireClub

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It is a protest about the lack of legislation regarding the matter. There would be no medical negligence if the area was not so grey. The doctor has to make the call if there is a chance of death and sometimes doctors will not be 100% sure and so the choice should be made then by the patient. In this incidence the patient had no choice. Once legislation is in place then incidents like this will not occur.

But for all you know tonight, the problem could have caused by cutbacks (sound familar?!?), that caused nobody to actually know within an acceptable timeframe, that this woman had developed septicemia and therefore on that basis, her life was at risk???

How on earth you can start getting involved in protests when the chain of events that led to this tragic death is just speculation in the media, is a bit of a mystery to me...

OneIdea

ibarelycare wrote: »

Great turnout on Kildare Street in case anyone's wondering!

Just curious, whats the average age group?

pablomakaveli

HellFireClub wrote: »

You probably didn't have the right to vote for the Good Friday Agreement either, maybe we should open up that whole can of worms again, just to accommodate yourself and anyone else who didn't get to vote back then? Same for the Maastrict Treaty maybe?

No one is asking for another vote on the GFA, they are asking for another referendum on this issue. Are you implying because people vted no 20 years ago future generations shouldnt get to vote again on this issue.

NinjaK

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

poeticseraphim

kunst nugget wrote: »

Or could it be that we might have a government that is responding to wishes of the people do deal with these social issues which the FF govts totally ignored while the wine was flowing. I can't see the problem with putting our house in order both economically and socially. What problem do you have with my generation and younger having a say on abortion? Or gay marriage?

Here here...

There is a lot of truth in this statement....it is that FF govt and that gen that got is into this mess and showed such corrupt values anyway.

Hellfire you are basically saying the economy is more important than women's lives...that is the digusting misogynistic value structure that got us into this mess.

The economy jobs ..money forget about social progress.

Social progress and living standards go hand in hand. The more open and honest a govt becomes the less corruption in all levels of society.

Yay lets throw women under the bus...say yes for JOBS

Tragedy

poeticseraphim wrote: »

No the majority of the Irish people are favouring an agenda.....the reason your side will not consent to a referendum where abortion on demand is the question is because YOU KNOW Irish people would allow it.

That is the cold fact. Irish people are socially liberal as a majority. We have civil partnerships for gay people and would allow marriage if let.

You just cannot accept the Ireland of today because you are not a part of the majority.

You guys are hilarious...it is the Dublin media bias...no the INTERNATIONAL media bias....no the electorate bias...no the worldwide electorate bias...

You don't get it...the people of the world disagree with you.

People WANT abortion in the UK...the majority want it in America and in Europe...


We WANT it here ...or at least a referendum where we have the choice.


It is not an agenda ..it is the will of the people.


And no they don't care about the fictionalized will of a tadpole.

The majority are biased...yes that is there position and we have an agenda...

I would wager people would go further to cover unviable fetuses , rape incest , and where the HEALTH and not just the life of the mother is at risk.

And i believe the majority would favour abortion on demand in the first trimester. And yes we have seen abortion pictures and films.


It is not a secret agenda ....it is an open attempt to rectify a human rights crisis.

The 21st century is pro-choice.....

The media is reflecting the views of the Irish people. And to be honest it is being quite conservative.

Eh, can you point out a single opinion poll that shows that the majority want open abortion? Any I've seen show a vast majority in favour of legislating the X case, but a slim majority still being against more general abortion.

Very big long post there with very little (nothing) to back it up.

pablomakaveli

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

So your saying that woman deserved to die then?

NinjaK

pablomakaveli wrote: »

So your saying that woman deserved to die then?

No.

The Waltzing Consumer

pablomakaveli wrote: »

So your saying that woman deserved to die then?

I think he is saying "look at me, I want attention" with that comment

Zulu

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Hellfire you are basically saying the economy is more important than women's lives...that is the digusting misogynistic blah blah blah.

Jesus fucking wept. :rolleyes:

...because the economy has nothing to do with peoples (or womens) lives.

RayM

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

It isn't. It isn't. And no.

Pride Fighter

Delighted to hear there is thousands of people protesting outside the Dail atm. Fair play to them.

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'm probably younger than you so you can get off your high youthful horse there for a start. Where are all these people that you can see calling for referendum after referendum while the country is economically falling apart at the seams? It's been one after the other, Lisbon 1, Lisbon II, some other load of nonsenical shít about Oireachtas enquiries, a childrens referendum that was so irellevant that only 30% of the electorate bothered turning out to vote in, put out there by a government that is impoverishing families every day and driving them into poverty with these policies of austerity and a failure to deal with a now massive unemployment problem.

At what point did I get on a high horse? You say we've already voted on these issues but if you're younger than me, clearly you haven't. Attitudes to divorce changed enough to be brought into law by referendum even though it had previously been voted on so why can't the same thing apply to abortion? I would like to see legislation brought in to clear the waters and let medical practitioners know exactly what they can and can not do in the medical treatment of pregnant women.

You might see these referendums as nonsensical but because of the way our constitution is set up they are necessary to effect certain changes in the law.
If this is what has to be done, so be it.

HellFireClub wrote: »

You think I want to see mates, family, friends of friends, suffering poverty, enduring completely unnecessary hardship, but I'll console myself with the fact that the gay lad across the road can now get married if he wants, not that he can afford to because the poor lad is broke 'cos he hasn't worked in 4 years?!?

Same for this abortion referendum nonsense, it's a distraction that is continually thrown out there by people who want abortion on demand services in Ireland. And our government, who are hopelessly incapable of dealing with our economic problems, will be only too happy to keep us all occupied with this and all sorts of other side issues until their pension entitlements are safe and in the bag.

I think you'll find the abortion debate is a great deal more nuanced than just those that want abortion on demand versus those that don't. Continually pointing out the state of the economy as a reason why we shouldn't have these debates is a nonsense argument. What you consider a side issue like gay rights is something that can have a major impact on a sizeable portion of the population.

HellFireClub

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Here here...

There is a lot of truth in this statement....it is that FF govt and that gen that got is into this mess and showed such corrupt values anyway.

Hellfire you are basically saying the economy is more important than women's lives...that is the digusting misogynistic value structure that got us into this mess.

The economy jobs ..money forget about social progress.

Social progress and living standards go hand in hand. The more open and honest a govt becomes the less corruption in all levels of society.

Yay lets throw women under the bus...say yes for JOBS

No, I'm asking how come a government that is hell bent on impoverishing families via policies of austerity, can fúcking dare hand us a referendum that provides for the removal of kids from a family where the same state inflicted poverty can be the cause of the child being taken from the family and adopted. Fair question.

I'm asking on similar lines, how come a state that is taking billions of Euro out of health spending, but is determined to protect some of the best paid medical people in the country via a pay deal, can be trusted to get abortion legislation right? I also wonder did HSE cutbacks play a part in the deterioration of this woman's health, or put more properly, did a delay in diagnosing the gravity of her blood condition, ultimately cause her death, again, fair question.

Winty

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

As a Protestant born in donegal have I no place in your catholic Ireland

ABajaninCork

Just listening to the husband speak on RTE. He has handled himself in a very dignified manner, considering the strain and grief he must be feeling.

I'm so sorry for the poor man's loss which was absolutely needless.

I will say a prayer for the poor man tonight.

Stinicker

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

What a ridiculous statement to make, there is alot of Catholics in Ireland yes, however I bet the most of them would agree that it would have been better to end the unborn child's life earlier rather than threaten the life of the mother. I'm sure the unborn child suffered in the womb in its final hours also. I was born and raised Catholic and am still a believer in god, I reject the Catholic church over what they did to Children and women. This woman wasn't even Catholic and it was an absolute disgrace that this was allowed to happen in this day and age.

People are blaming the Church, the Church had nothing to do with this, it is their belief to reject abortion and I respect that. The blame for this lays on the hands of Government and more importantly the previous Fianna Fail government who in 2002 wanted to ban Abortion outright even in cases like this and subsequently lost that referendum. Abortion in this instance is actually allowed under the terms of the X Case, however rather than legislating successive governments have tried to sweep the issue under the carpet.

HellFireClub

kunst nugget wrote: »

I think you'll find the abortion debate is a great deal more nuanced than just those that want abortion on demand versus those that don't. Continually pointing out the state of the economy as a reason why we shouldn't have these debates is a nonsense argument. What you consider a side issue like gay rights is something that can have a major impact on a sizeable portion of the population.

I personally don't know anyone who had any pressing demands for any of the following:

(1) Children being taken out of families and adopted off into other families.

(2) Oireachtas enquires

(3) Lisbon I & II

(4) Gay marriage

(5) Judges pensions

(6) Whatever the fúck is dreamed up next to distract us as a nation...

I do however, happen to know too many people who are suffering poverty, who are broke at the end of the month and who are at the end of their tether financially and who are suffering under all the attendant problems that comes with landing in those circumstances.

ninebeanrows

RayM wrote: »

It isn't. It isn't. And no.

Don't feed the troll!!

poeticseraphim

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

I counter your fine arguement at the level it is at ...peados peados peados..

Spain Italy and portugal have abortion...../end argument.


Italy...has had abortion on demand since 1978


Spain more recently.
Portugal also has abortion.
We are not a catholic country anyway really are we??

Portugal is much more religious at first glance.

We don't make adultery illegal....we have contraception and divorce and we have removed legislation banning gay relationships.

And good old contraception.

In Ireland we legalized contraception one year after Italy legalized abortion on demand.Both are supposedly catholic countries.....


It is just that ' Irish mammies ' are built for child rare'in an notin else righ.... Ireland is a pro-life natiun..deal wit ih righ

Dah tadpole has righs....ah that puor woman....Laurd bless her an save her...I will pray for her so i will.....

We are not really catholic....have you seen Dublin at the weekends??

Don't give me this crap...I know Dublin...I know FF I know FG...Charlie Haughie was hardly Catholic in approaches to marriage.

Irish people have affairs ..they screw..they divorce they have gay relationships....welcome to Ireland....

Gongoozler

I don't get why numbers get exaggerated at protests; I was just down Kildare St myself, and there were maybe 200 people there, not 3-4000. hmm

Zulu

Gongoozler wrote: »

I don't get why numbers get exaggerated at protests; I was just down Kildare St myself, and there were maybe 200 people there, not 3-4000. hmm

to make it sound like a success, irregardless of the truth

hooradiation

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

Oh hey, it's Kev_PS3s alt.

Wondered what happened to that kid....

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

I personally don't know anyone who had any pressing demands for any of the following:

(1) Children being taken out of families and adopted off into other families.

(2) Oireachtas enquires

(3) Lisbon I & II

(4) Gay marriage

(5) Judges pensions

(6) Whatever the fúck is dreamed up next to distract us as a nation...

I do however, happen to know too many people who are suffering poverty, who are broke at the end of the month and who are at the end of their tether financially and who are suffering under all the attendant problems that comes with landing in those circumstances.

So, let me guess this right, if the economy is in the sh¡tter then in your eyes government should stop working at passing any legislation whatsoever and people should stop demanding change because Johnny that you know down the road is having a hard time of it and he doesn't care about the gays. Grand, so…

mac.in

Religion should be for the benefit of mankind. Human species should never be the scapegoats of the ill-factors and ill-effects of the religion; following blind practices without knowing their past true intentions should definitely be abandoned.
If we say abortion = murder, what about the lady who died. That lady had prepared herself for the noble job of giving birth. Unfortunately things went reverse and she herself ended up in a hard situation where she could lose her life and the life of unborn baby too. That situation did progress to the death of two lives.
Differentiate 'Abortion' and 'Medical Termination of Pregnancy' (MTP) with a rational understanding . MTP is definitely not abortion if one says abortion is killing; MTP is saving a life for a good reason with the expense (or in fact in most cases at no expense) of another life. If the lady had been treated with MTP, it would definitely have had her kept alive. And she would have been ready for a next pregnancy down the time thereby keeping the noble job of giving birth alive. So, if a religion is against murder; it means religion is for giving-birth. In this case, by not administering MTP, the religion is not followed, but paradoxically murdered.:(
I'm neither against nor for a religion. Also, I'm neither against nor for abortion. But, I'm cent percent for MTP.

who the fug

Winty wrote: »

As a Protestant born in donegal have I no place in your catholic Ireland

fraid you may have to join this atheist in London

poeticseraphim

Tragedy wrote: »

Eh, can you point out a single opinion poll that shows that the majority want open abortion? Any I've seen show a vast majority in favour of legislating the X case, but a slim majority still being against more general abortion.

Very big long post there with very little (nothing) to back it up.

JESUS...YES MANY


A January 2010 Irish Examiner/RedC poll about abortion in Ireland found that 60% felt abortion should be legalised, and 10% had been in a relationship in which an abortion had taken place.

A January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn under circumstances where intervention to save the mother's life was legal.

SO A PRO LIFE OPINION POLL FOUND THAT 70% of people question the favoured the unborn child. STILL THINK IT IS BIAS????


Referenda in 1992 and in 2002 rejected proposals to further restrict access to abortion. No referendum has ever been held to offer Irish people the opportunity to make access to abortion less restrictive; opinion polls, however, consistently indicate public support for less restrictive abortion regulation.


There are multitudinous polls i can show you...

A 2004 Crisis Pregnancy Agency study found that 90% of 18-45 year olds support abortion in certain circumstances, with 51% stating that women should always have to right to choose an abortion.That was eight years ago.

That red C poll was in 2010.

And you cannot claim bias in the case of the Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign that foun 70 % of people disagree with the rights of the unborn as they stand.

That red C poll was in 2010. It found two years ago 60% of people favoured legalizing abortion.


I am surprised you even asked to be honest. It is like you live in a different country.

mehfesto

Looks like more than 200 now:
Link

poeticseraphim

The majority of Irish people favor legalizing abortion.

mac.in

poeticseraphim wrote: »

JESUS...YES MANY


A January 2010 Irish Examiner/RedC poll about abortion in Ireland found that 60% felt abortion should be legalised, and 10% had been in a relationship in which an abortion had taken place.

A January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn under circumstances where intervention to save the mother's life was legal.

SO A PRO LIFE OPINION POLL FOUND THAT 70% of people question the favoured the unborn child. STILL THINK IT IS BIAS????


Referenda in 1992 and in 2002 rejected proposals to further restrict access to abortion. No referendum has ever been held to offer Irish people the opportunity to make access to abortion less restrictive; opinion polls, however, consistently indicate public support for less restrictive abortion regulation.


There are multitudinous polls i can show you...

A 2004 Crisis Pregnancy Agency study found that 90% of 18-45 year olds support abortion in certain circumstances, with 51% stating that women should always have to right to choose an abortion.That was eight years ago.

That red C poll was in 2010.

And you cannot claim bias in the case of the Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign that foun 70 % of people disagree with the rights of the unborn as they stand.

That red C poll was in 2010. It found two years ago 60% of people favoured legalizing abortion.


I am surprised you even asked to be honest. It is like you live in a different country.

Your facts and figures paralyze the hypocritical tongue. Keep it up!:)

Micky Dolenz

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

Mod

Please don't post in this thread again. PM for clarification, if needed.

K-9

The law didn't allow the consultant to "abort" the baby when the mother and father asked, assuming she was definitely going to have a miscarriage (it would seem the consultant was sure of this) and there was no immediate threat to the mother.

So there is an issue there, same with women who have to carry foetuses that stand no chance of survival to term or miscarriage. There is no danger to the mother so the law doesn't recognise them.

mac.in

K-9 wrote: »

The law didn't allow the consultant to "abort" the baby when the mother and father asked, assuming she was definitely going to have a miscarriage (it would seem the consultant was sure of this) and there was no immediate threat to the mother.

So there is an issue there, same with women who have to carry foetuses that stand no chance of survival to term or miscarriage. There is no danger to the mother so the law doesn't recognise them.

Adding to the previous post. That clearly says that the consultant had an option of giving the woman a choice of termination of pregnancy provided the law allowed him to do so. Does that mean the consultant's expertise in his medical knowledge is implicating that the law is somewhere wrong and not medically or scientifically based? (no offence meant)

mac.in

NinjaK wrote: »

Abortion is murder. Ireland is a Catholic country. Get over it.

In this case, by not providing abortion also there has been murder (that too 2 lives). So what does it stand for in respect of religion, Ireland, .....etc.

ibarelycare

OneIdea wrote: »

Just curious, whats the average age group?

Very mixed. Mainly 20s/early 30s I'd say but lots of older people as well.

ilovesleep

HellFireClub wrote: »

I personally don't know anyone who had any pressing demands for any of the following:

(1) Children being taken out of families and adopted off into other families.

(2) Oireachtas enquires

(3) Lisbon I & II

(4) Gay marriage

(5) Judges pensions

(6) Whatever the fúck is dreamed up next to distract us as a nation...

I do however, happen to know too many people who are suffering poverty, who are broke at the end of the month and who are at the end of their tether financially and who are suffering under all the attendant problems that comes with landing in those circumstances.

But wouldn't there be some sort of an economic benefit to abortion. Say for example I fall pregnant but my financial circumstances are so dire that I can't even afford a pair of shoes for myself, abortion would be the best thing for me instead of giving birth to a child and bringing him/her into poverty.

Also there would be less demands on the sw system with one less to pay out in child benefit.

MagicSean

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The majority of Irish people favor legalizing abortion.

Whats that opinion based on?

who the fug

MagicSean wrote: »

Whats that opinion based on?

did you not read his/her post above what you quoted

Show Time

MagicSean wrote: »

Whats that opinion based on?

It would be handy if you had a read of the thread.:rolleyes:

Zulu

ilovesleep wrote: »

But wouldn't there be some sort of an economic benefit to abortion..

Depends on how you look at it. If the child grows up to be a fully productive member of society, they'd cost the state less & contribute more in taxes.



Aside from their "potential" - cure cancer, solve the economic crisis, invent the replicator....

MagicSean

who the fug wrote: »

did you not read his/her post above what you quoted

It contradicted itself.

K-9

mac.in wrote: »

Adding to the previous post. That clearly says that the consultant had an option of giving the woman a choice of termination of pregnancy provided the law allowed him to do so. Does that mean the consultant's expertise in his medical knowledge is implicating that the law is somewhere wrong and not medically or scientifically based? (no offence meant)

Well the law says the mothers life must be at risk, it would appear the consultant did not think it was initially so his hands were tied. If her life is not at significant risk medical or scientific knowledge is irrelevant, legally.

who the fug

MagicSean wrote: »

It contradicted itself.

Whilst it looks that way, continue on and he/she explains it

saspeir

Matters such as this make me ashamed to be Irish.

This story has just been on Channel 4 news. The presenter warned "that some viewers may find the report disturbing". You normally get that kind of warning before some war report or a report with images of mutilated bodies.

Catholic Church = Scum!

who the fug

saspeir wrote: »

Matters such as this make me ashamed to be Irish.

This story has just been on Channel 4 news. The presenter warned "that some viewers may find the report disturbing". You normally get that kind of warning before some war report or a report with images of mutilated bodies.

Catholic Church = Scum!

why blame the church , for the failure of the population of Ireland to make Kildare street address this issue over the last 20 years.

saspeir

who the fug wrote: »

why blame the church , for the failure of the population of Ireland to make Kildare street address this issue over the last 20 years.

And why won't the Dáil address it? Because so many in this country hold true to the CC. Politicians are afraid of that vote. FG and FF depend on that vote you could say.

On the C4 news the husband says he was told by medics in UHG that they can't terminate "because this is a Catholic Country".

Again, CC = Scum! And those medics, if that report is true, need to be sacked and struck off.

seb65

Zulu wrote: »

Depends on how you look at it. If the child grows up to be a fully productive member of society, they'd cost the state less & contribute more in taxes.



Aside from their "potential" - cure cancer, solve the economic crisis, invent the replicator....

Actually, there are studies that show after abortion was legalized in New York City the rate of crime started dropping.

Here's another point, ever notice how all of the anti-choice/anti-woman ads always show a little white baby? Even in the US, where minorities are the ones having more abortions per capita.