Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

MagicSean

who the fug wrote: »

Whilst it looks that way, continue on and he/she explains it

No sources for one thing.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

A January 2010 Irish Examiner/RedC poll about abortion in Ireland found that 60% felt abortion should be legalised, and 10% had been in a relationship in which an abortion had taken place.

Legalised to what extent?

poeticseraphim wrote: »

A January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn under circumstances where intervention to save the mother's life was legal.

SO A PRO LIFE OPINION POLL FOUND THAT 70% of people question the favoured the unborn child. STILL THINK IT IS BIAS????

And you cannot claim bias in the case of the Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign that foun 70 % of people disagree with the rights of the unborn as they stand.

Three different conclusions from the one poll.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Referenda in 1992 and in 2002 rejected proposals to further restrict access to abortion. No referendum has ever been held to offer Irish people the opportunity to make access to abortion less restrictive; opinion polls, however, consistently indicate public support for less restrictive abortion regulation.

Irrelevent. It's just as possible people are satisifed with the current position as it is they want it on demand.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

A 2004 Crisis Pregnancy Agency study found that 90% of 18-45 year olds support abortion in certain circumstances, with 51% stating that women should always have to right to choose an abortion.That was eight years ago.

i don't doubt 90% of people attending a crisis pregnancy service would like abortion fully legalised.

keano_afc

saspeir wrote: »

Matters such as this make me ashamed to be Irish.

This story has just been on Channel 4 news. The presenter warned "that some viewers may find the report disturbing". You normally get that kind of warning before some war report or a report with images of mutilated bodies.

Catholic Church = Scum!

I'm not Catholic, but what has the church got to do with this?

seb65

keano_afc wrote: »

I'm not Catholic, but what has the church got to do with this?

Are you kidding?

strandroad

ibarelycare wrote: »

Very mixed. Mainly 20s/early 30s I'd say but lots of older people as well.

And folks just after work, started arriving well after 6. This photo on FB shows the numbers if you want to count, there was also good crowd where I was in Molesworth St around the corner.

keano_afc

seb65 wrote: »

Are you kidding?

No, would you like to enlighten me and tell me how the Catholic church is directly responsible for this tragedy?

saspeir

keano_afc wrote: »

I'm not Catholic, but what has the church got to do with this?

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

jill_valentine

Tragedy wrote: »

So the ends justify the means?

The abortion debate is truly long overdue, abusing a dead woman's memory to push for it isn't the right way to do it.

If the debate had been hashed out sooner, she would not be dead.

This is not a philosophical issue, it's not something that exists only in arguments and on paper. As we've seen in the most stark possible terms, for the women of Ireland, it's potentially very literally a matter of life and death.

I can think of no possible reaction that would be more insulting to this woman than meekly consenting silence in the face of the completely avoidable situation that killed her.

keano_afc

saspeir wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

And thats been proved has it? Or is it just something you've read in this thread or picked up in a newspaper report?

I just think its wrong to jump to conclusions on what happened in relation to what was or wasn't said in this case.

vetinari

saspeir wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

It's a bit ridiculous to blame the catholic church. Ireland is now a secular country and hiding behind the catholic argument to avoid passing legislation is cowardly.

saspeir

keano_afc wrote: »

And thats been proved has it? Or is it just something you've read in this thread or picked up in a newspaper report?

I just think its wrong to jump to conclusions on what happened in relation to what was or wasn't said in this case.

So you wouldn't believe the husband of this lady?

The interview was recorded and shown on C4 news this evening. He quoted what they were told by medics in response to numerous requests for a termination by Savita.

B0jangles

As additional fodder for the pro-choice side, here's a like to the Irish Royal College of Surgeons report from this year:

interesting sample quote:

"Attitudes towards abortion: key findings
• Approximately 1 in 11 adults (9%) believe that abortion is not permissible in any
circumstance. This finding has remained stable since ICCP-2003.
• Fewer adults (45%) are of the opinion that abortion is permissible in all
circumstances than were in ICCP-2003 (51%).
• More adults believe that abortion is permissible under certain circumstances
(44%), compared with ICCP-2003 (39%); however, attitudes regarding the specific
circumstances in which abortion is permissible remained very stable over the sevenyear
period.
• The most common circumstances when an abortion is deemed permissible is when
the pregnancy seriously endangers a woman’s life (95%) or health (89%), or when
the pregnancy is the result of rape (88%) or incest (86%).
• Less support was evident for an abortion if the child has a serious abnormality
(44%), if the couple are not married or in a stable relationship (14%) or if the couple
cannot afford another child (11%)
• In relation to abortifacients, 13% of respondents were aware of herbs or medications
that can be taken to induce an abortion. When they were questioned about the
legality of using abortifacients in Ireland, 75% thought the practice was illegal, 6%
thought it was legal and 19% were unsure.
• Of the 13% of adults, men and women, who were aware of abortifacients (n=371),
seven adults reported they or their partner had used these types of medication or
herbs in Ireland."

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/corporate/ICCP2010.pdf

So only 9% are anti-abortion in all circumstances. It seems this profoundly vocal minority has taken control of the conversation, it needs to be taken back off them as soon as possible.

Ghost Buster

keano_afc wrote: »

And thats been proved has it? Or is it just something you've read in this thread or picked up in a newspaper report?

I just think its wrong to jump to conclusions on what happened in relation to what was or wasn't said in this case.

Where else do you get your information from?
Other than being there personally when the doctor spoke what do you deem acceptable?

billybudd

Hippies! wrote: »

Somewhere in the middle east right now there's a guy reading this on a news website and he's saying..."those barbaric backward westerners, hey johnny, johnny...look at this, they said "this is a catholic country" and let her die...i'm at a loss for words"


Probably not but you get the idea.




As in we're always thinking that we're great and so civilised and like, you know this doesn't eh display that.



So yea.

FFS, every country has its own problems and own tragedies and its own appalling backward ways and ditto for religion.

Ireland does not own tragedy and religious attrocities.

Amazing so called hippies are so quick to blame.

Ghost Buster

saspeir wrote: »

So you wouldn't believe the husband of this lady?

The interview was recorded and shown on C4 news this evening. He quoted what they were told by medics in response to numerous requests for a termination by Savita.

Its dem trendy atheist journalist type persecuting de catalicks agin!!!!!

saspeir

vetinari wrote: »

It's a bit ridiculous to blame the catholic church. Ireland is now a secular country and hiding behind the catholic argument to avoid passing legislation is cowardly.

Ireland is secular!?

I couldn't become a Judge in this country because I would have to make an oath that only a Christian could.

Prayers are said every morning in the Dáil.

Secular organisations have to fight for representation to governments even though they are the 2nd biggest group in this country.

When elected officials reflect the secular numbers on the ground and State and church are totally separated, only then will Ireland be secular!

billybudd

saspeir wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/news/woman-dies-in-ireland-after-abortion-refused

Read this. Particularly the quote about how medics referred to Ireland being a "Catholic Country"!

A name check, so what? one doctors words means its true? its not, back up your statement or retract it.

saspeir

billybudd wrote: »

A name check, so what? one doctors words means its true? its not, back up your statement or retract it.

Did you drop your morals when you picked up the Bible?

billybudd

saspeir wrote: »

Did you drop your morals when you picked up the Bible?

My morals like anyone else can be blurry at times, i have read the bible but i am not religious in any way, shape or form.

Blaming the CC is easy, doesnt go to the root and wont fix the problem, now be a decent person and either link were its the CC fault or retract the statement.

Tragedy

poeticseraphim wrote: »

JESUS...YES MANY


A January 2010 Irish Examiner/RedC poll about abortion in Ireland found that 60% felt abortion should be legalised, and 10% had been in a relationship in which an abortion had taken place.

A January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn under circumstances where intervention to save the mother's life was legal.

SO A PRO LIFE OPINION POLL FOUND THAT 70% of people question the favoured the unborn child. STILL THINK IT IS BIAS????


Referenda in 1992 and in 2002 rejected proposals to further restrict access to abortion. No referendum has ever been held to offer Irish people the opportunity to make access to abortion less restrictive; opinion polls, however, consistently indicate public support for less restrictive abortion regulation.


There are multitudinous polls i can show you...

A 2004 Crisis Pregnancy Agency study found that 90% of 18-45 year olds support abortion in certain circumstances, with 51% stating that women should always have to right to choose an abortion.That was eight years ago.

That red C poll was in 2010.

And you cannot claim bias in the case of the Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign that foun 70 % of people disagree with the rights of the unborn as they stand.

That red C poll was in 2010. It found two years ago 60% of people favoured legalizing abortion.


I am surprised you even asked to be honest. It is like you live in a different country.

Did you even read my post before writing a ridiculous essay countering points I didn't make?

You stated that Ireland in general favours abortion (not legislating for the X case, or abortion where a mother's life is at risk).

The opinion polls you quote are not about general abortion, they are about when a mother's life is at risk.

So yes, I do think you're biased as you're quite clearly lying about a poll to support your unfounded point of view.

PS: Please keep your replies shorter, less emotive and to the point, it isn't pleasant wading through your reams of nonsense.
PPS: I never claimed bias yet half your extraordinarily long post is about my claiming bias?

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's a shame that this has to descend into the usual Catholic bashing furore that AH is famed for. We don't know the full facts of this case it's wrong to jump to conclusions, like what has being pointed out already if the mother's life is in danger the law permits an abortion to take place. James Reilly stated today that sometimes the safest route with a miscarriage is to allow it to occur naturally, something obviously went very wrong here.

Tragedy

jill_valentine wrote: »

If the debate had been hashed out sooner, she would not be dead.

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

This is not a philosophical issue, it's not something that exists only in arguments and on paper. As we've seen in the most stark possible terms, for the women of Ireland, it's potentially very literally a matter of life and death.

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

I can think of no possible reaction that would be more insulting to this woman than meekly consenting silence in the face of the completely avoidable situation that killed her.

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

Also, you can speak with the dead? I have some people I'd like you to get in touch with, ta.

andrewdeerpark

Here's the staff directory its safe to assume it was one of the below who would not authorize the abortion:

http://www.guh.hse.ie/Clinics/

who the fug

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here's the staff directory its safe to assume it was one of the below who would not authorize the abortion:

Delete that list these are people to look at

MagicSean

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Here's the staff directory its safe to assume it was one of the below who would not authorize the abortion:

http://www.guh.hse.ie/Clinics/

So?

donfers

Zulu wrote: »

Aside for the usual knee-jerk (stressing "jerk") reactionary bs, and setting aside the trite "pro-life are scum" for one minute...

Does the current law not allow for the protection of the mother when there's a real risk to her life? At least that was my understanding. Based on that understanding, it appears that a tragic mistake was made here.

...now going back to the bs & trite slurs. Personally, I'm against abortion "on demand". Clearly that wasn't the case here; this should never have happened. I think most people can agree that only a very fundamentalist viewpoint (or troll) would think otherwise.


Finally, and frankly, any band-wagon campaigners jumping onto this case to push their own agenda, or to have a cheap pop at the majority of the counter-argument, should be very, very ashamed of themselves.

one of the few sensible posts i've read on this emotionally charged issue and sums things up about right IMO

andrewdeerpark

MagicSean wrote: »

So?

If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

keano_afc

Zulu wrote: »

Aside for the usual knee-jerk (stressing "jerk") reactionary bs, and setting aside the trite "pro-life are scum" for one minute...

Does the current law not allow for the protection of the mother when there's a real risk to her life? At least that was my understanding. Based on that understanding, it appears that a tragic mistake was made here.

...now going back to the bs & trite slurs. Personally, I'm against abortion "on demand". Clearly that wasn't the case here; this should never have happened. I think most people can agree that only a very fundamentalist viewpoint (or troll) would think otherwise.


Finally, and frankly, any band-wagon campaigners jumping onto this case to push their own agenda, or to have a cheap pop at the majority of the counter-argument, should be very, very ashamed of themselves.

That's a great post, I agree with every word.

mac.in

K-9 wrote: »

Well the law says the mothers life must be at risk, it would appear the consultant did not think it was initially so his hands were tied. If her life is not at significant risk medical or scientific knowledge is irrelevant, legally.

Well, when the mother complained of abdominal pain, she was diagnosed of miscarriage. Later she suffered for 2 and 1/2 days with abdominal pain with out any treatment. So does her abdominal pain doesn't warrant any attention?

Tasden

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

Was it not a case of the consultant making a rational medical judgement that her life was not then at risk and as a result of current legislation his hands were tied on the issue. And in explaining his situation he told her that it is due to Ireland being a catholic country etc.?

ilovesleep

billybudd wrote: »

My morals like anyone else can be blurry at times, i have read the bible but i am not religious in any way, shape or form.

Blaming the CC is easy, doesnt go to the root and wont fix the problem, now be a decent person and either link were its the CC fault or retract the statement.

The CC are partly to blame and although interest in the CC is dwindling, many people still look up to the CC and CC still has an influence of sorts. They impose their views on others and some people lap it up.
(I'm guessing a lot of these people who still look up to the CC are those of the grey vote. And that's where politics plays a part. A politician willing to legalise abortion could lose many votes).

HeyThereDeliah

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

The doctor who ever it was could not offer her a termination, why is this so hard for some people to understand?
You cannot ask for a termination and expect it will be carried out. I don't think there is one person on here who thinks this lady should have died but the doctor could not do anything.

I would like to hear the doctor speak on what happened and his own view on the matter, I'm sure the "this is a catholic country" is him explaining why he could not carry out a termination.

MagicSean

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

If Galway hospital handled the situation with "this is a catholic country" and left the woman die then manslaughter charges should be made against the consultant concerned that is the actions of a religious zealot, no better than the Taliban.

Both individuals asked several times for a termination.

That's so incredibly stupid.

And it still doesn't explain why you linked the staff register.

jill_valentine

Tragedy wrote: »

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?


It's awesome that you know that. How did you get an advance copy of the autopsy report/inquiry?

Also, you can speak with the dead? I have some people I'd like you to get in touch with, ta.

Why would I need an advance copy?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741

An autopsy carried out two days after her death found she had died from septicaemia.

And even if that were not the case yet, would you seriously sit there with a straight face and suggest that her death was entirely coincidental to an agonising three day miscarriage?

B0jangles

Tasden wrote: »

Was it not a case of the consultant making a rational medical judgement that her life was not then at risk and as a result of current legislation his hands were tied on the issue. And in explaining his situation he told her that it is due to Ireland being a catholic country etc.?

This was not a situation where a doctor/surgeon had to make a decision within the high-pressure circumstances of a major operation.

This woman visibly deteriorated over a period of three days. The medical team had ample opportunity over those 72 hours to seek alternate legal and medical advice. Instead it appears they chose to "wait and see" as this woman proceeded to die of an infection that has been preventable since the 1840's ( google puerperal fever)

Hungerford

There's an extremely interesting piece on a new blog which I have started reading recently about the potential links between the UCHG incident and the wider medical community in terms of a 'Dublin declaration' made a few months ago at a medical conference here that stated that abortion is unnecessary in all circumstances:

http://griffinsrealm.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/abortion-where-irish-medicine-and-dogma-collide/

Tasden

B0jangles wrote: »

This was not a situation where a doctor/surgeon had to make a decision within the high-pressure circumstances of a major operation.

This woman visibly deteriorated over a period of three days. The medical team had ample opportunity over those 72 hours to seek alternate legal and medical advice. Instead it appears they chose to "wait and see" as this woman proceeded to die of an infection that has been preventable since the 1840's ( google puerperal fever)

Hence me saying he (or whoever) made a rational medical judgement.

Yes it turned out to be wrong in hindsight but a medical assessment was made as to whether or not her life was in danger at the time, it was deemed not to be. Due to legislation this meant they could not carry out a termination.

My point was that the doctor did not just whip out his bible and spout on about how abortion is wrong in catholic Ireland. He may have just been trying to explain how his hands are tied due to the legislation.

pennypocket

saspeir wrote: »

Ireland is secular!?

I couldn't become a Judge in this country because I would have to make an oath that only a Christian could.

Prayers are said every morning in the Dáil.

Secular organisations have to fight for representation to governments even though they are the 2nd biggest group in this country.

When elected officials reflect the secular numbers on the ground and State and church are totally separated, only then will Ireland be secular!

It's so strange because we don't officially have an established church. (England does, as many other countries). But somehow, and at every turn from independence, Rome rules the roost.

dr.bollocko

Tasden wrote: »

He may have just been trying to explain how his hands are tied due to the legislation.

And now she's dead.

She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby. Savita asked if they could not save the baby could they induce to end the pregnancy. The consultant said, 'As long as there is a foetal heartbeat we can't do anything'," her husband was quoted as saying by the newspaper.

And now she's dead.

Having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Savita asked for a medical termination. This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, "This is a Catholic country".

And now she is dead.

The technicality of a heartbeat on a miscarried foetus killed a woman because there is no clarity that protects a mother's right to life over an unviable foetus.

andrewdeerpark

Tasden wrote: »

Was it not a case of the consultant making a rational medical judgement that her life was not then at risk and as a result of current legislation his hands were tied on the issue. And in explaining his situation he told her that it is due to Ireland being a catholic country etc.?

Or was the consultant a religious fanatic who used this case to prove a point against abortion. Lets assume he aborted the child with the express consent of both parties and the mother lived. Would he be prosecuted for it?

Its such a grey area legally I seriously doubt the DPP would even send it to court.

Only the hospital staff know if the consultant is a religious fanatic however the way its being leaked out means I suspect the staff are leaking for a reason.

K-9

seb65 wrote: »

Actually, there are studies that show after abortion was legalized in New York City the rate of crime started dropping.

Studies that have loads of holes in them.

http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL06/randylaura.html

pennypocket

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

The doctor who ever it was could not offer her a termination, why is this so hard for some people to understand?
You cannot ask for a termination and expect it will be carried out. I don't think there is one person on here who thinks this lady should have died but the doctor could not do anything.

I would like to hear the doctor speak on what happened and his own view on the matter, I'm sure the "this is a catholic country" is him explaining why he could not carry out a termination.

So disregarding the 'catholic country' quote, a medical procedure which would be performed in any civilised country was denied this woman, and she died a reportedly agonising death. The doctors could have done something.

HeyThereDeliah

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

Or was the consultant a religious fanatic who used this case to prove a point against abortion. Lets assume he aborted the child with the express consent of both parties and the mother lived. Would he be prosecuted for it?

Its such a grey area legally I seriously doubt the DPP would even send it to court.

Only the hospital staff know if the consultant is a religious fanatic however the way its being leaked out means I suspect the staff are leaking for a reason.

Do you know it was a male doctor?

andrewdeerpark

B0jangles wrote: »

This was not a situation where a doctor/surgeon had to make a decision within the high-pressure circumstances of a major operation.

This woman visibly deteriorated over a period of three days. The medical team had ample opportunity over those 72 hours to seek alternate legal and medical advice. Instead it appears they chose to "wait and see" as this woman proceeded to die of an infection that has been preventable since the 1840's ( google puerperal fever)

I only hope the papers have the balls to name the consultant who made the decision tomorrow. We see the same with banking people hidden behind faceless organisations.

B0jangles

Tasden wrote: »

Hence me saying he (or whoever) made a rational medical judgement.

Yes it turned out to be wrong in hindsight but a medical assessment was made as to whether or not her life was in danger at the time, it was deemed not to be.

At what time? At hour 30, 45, 60, 65 ?
When she developed a high fever?
When she collapsed on her way to the toilet?
When all of her organs failed?

Let's be realistic, this woman went from being reasonably well to dying inside an Irish hospital, with 72 hours of that decline happening due to an apparent legal need to allow a dying fetus to fail unaided.

That is disgraceful and should never ever happen again.

pennypocket

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

I only hope the papers have the balls to name the consultant who made the decision tomorrow. We see the same with banking people hidden behind faceless organisations.

Why would it matter? They acted within the parameters of Irish law as it stands.

HeyThereDeliah

pennypocket wrote: »

So disregarding the 'catholic country' quote, a medical procedure which would be performed in any civilised country was denied this woman, and she died a reportedly agonising death. The doctors could have done something.

What could the doctor do? We can go round in circles all night but it will not change the outcome, abortion is illegal in Ireland.

vetinari

saspeir wrote: »

Ireland is secular!?

I couldn't become a Judge in this country because I would have to make an oath that only a Christian could.

Prayers are said every morning in the Dáil.

Secular organisations have to fight for representation to governments even though they are the 2nd biggest group in this country.

When elected officials reflect the secular numbers on the ground and State and church are totally separated, only then will Ireland be secular!

Yes, Ireland is secular. The government can pass an abortion law in the morning. It does not need the church's permission.

K-9

mac.in wrote: »

Well, when the mother complained of abdominal pain, she was diagnosed of miscarriage. Later she suffered for 2 and 1/2 days with abdominal pain with out any treatment. So does her abdominal pain doesn't warrant any attention?

Legally it required attention which she got, just not abortion. That's the legality, not my opinion.

There was no substantial threat to her life initially so denying her and his wishes was fine. Some posters here seem ok with that as there is nothing wrong with our current laws whatsoever apparently. The current law nor indeed the X case addresses that scenario, IMO.

Red Pepper

This is an extremely sad case but am I the only one amazed at the reaction and the coverage this story has got in 24 hours? People protesting at the Dáil already (I thought Irish people didn't protest), Candle-lit vigils organised, Twitter on fire, Facebook, Forums. I would prefer to hear more from the consultants perspective before I make any comments myself.

saspeir

vetinari wrote: »

Yes, Ireland is secular. The government can pass an abortion law in the morning. It does not need the church's permission.

I'm pretty sure it couldn't do that.

Ireland is not secular. Church still interferes with State. It's called the Iona Institute.