Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

Can you even do that? I remember there was a story a few years ago about a girl, who was possibly 17 at the time, who was pregnant and they discovered that the baby would effectively be born brain-dead with no chance of a proper life. She wanted to go to the UK to get an abortion done, but the government found out and banned her from doing so and she was forced to deliver the baby.

seenitall

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's hard to comment on what is just a headline so i'll keep it short. I highly doubt anyone would refuse an abortion on moral grounds if there was a clear danger to the mother's life. It's not something that needs to be mused on or needs debate. If nothing can be done to save the mother other than an abortion, it's unfortunate but perfectly warranted. Even the most diehard anti-abortionist would probably agree with that. There's no point trying to keep up the tiny chance of survival that the child has when the mother is facing something like septicaemia.

Why would you highly doubt that? Whatever about their morality, whoever refused to perform an abortion in this case was fully within and following the letter of the law of this country. Cases such as these still haven't been legislated for - it's a very grey area any doctor attempting this would be entering.

I can only fervently hope that this case will have legs now and exert sway for the legislation to finally come through.

How come so many folks on this thread are ignorant of these facts...

Pilotdude5

flynnlives wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

“this is a Catholic country”.

She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

If this quote is true they should be jailed

af_thefragile

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you even do that? I remember there was a story a few years ago about a girl, who was possibly 17 at the time, who was pregnant and they discovered that the baby would effectively be born brain-dead with no chance of a proper life. She wanted to go to the UK to get an abortion done, but the government found out and banned her from doing so and she was forced to deliver the baby.

Its done all the time. Maybe things changed since that story...

Gbear

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

depends on what he valued more, his nutjob religious belief or his Hippocratic oath.

I sincerely hope that is the case.

Otherwise, if it really happened as appeared in the articles quoted, he showed a level of sociopathic self-interest that disgraces him not only as a doctor but as a person.

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its done all the time. Maybe things changed since that story...

It might have had something to do with the fact she was 17, I'm not sure. Trying to get the story from memory, so some of the details could be wrong.

deblacker

cournioni wrote: »

I wonder will they class this as murder like they do with their pro life posters.

We should make a poster and put it at the bus stop like theirs.

awec

The influence that Catholicism has in this country is scary.

Duiske

K-9 wrote: »

If she was told she couldn't have an abortion because Ireland is Catholic, should be instant dismissal.

It should be instant arrest, and hopefully a prosecution for manslaughter.

Stheno

af_thefragile wrote: »

But such scenarios are never as black and white. Its not that if the fetus was removed early she wouldn't have ended up getting an infection and septicaemia. There are many risks and complications associated with miscarriage. There might be some issue of poor protocols and guidelines for acting in such situations which is more of an issue for the HSE to deal with to bring in proper guidelines for when such a situation arises.

What I'm trying to say is don't make it a issue that pro-choicers use as propaganda to beat up the pro-lifers and the catholic church with.

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

So in the midst of a miscarriage, when a simple procedure that could have saved this woman's life could have been performed the woman should have been referred to the UK?

The problem is not lack of procedures in the HSE, it's the lack of clarity regarding any abortion as a result of the lack of legislation we have in the area.

Doctors have adopted a blanket no abortion rule here for years due to the lack of legislation. This is the fault of the government. Were it possible that her life would have been saved by an abortion on day 2 you'd think most doctors would have done it, but as the foetus (that was 17 weeks old and had no chance of survival) still had a heartbeat, they didn't.

The press releases and articles clearly articulate that the longer the woman's cervix was open the greater the chance of infection and septicemia

And most posters are castigating the governments failure to legislate not the church, the prolifers or whoever else.
There is a clear mandate for limited abortion from 20 years ago, which could have saved this woman's life.

ABajaninCork

OMG!! I've just read the story. I hope to God it isn't true. How the **** could they leave that poor woman to die in agony?:eek: You wouldn't do that to a dog!

It simply beggars belief this could happen in a so-called developed country.

I sincerely hope that the enquiry leaves no stone unturned in the quest to find the truth, and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law those responsible.

Mind you - I seriously doubt that will happen - unfortunately

Morag

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

depends on what he valued more, his nutjob religious belief or his Hippocratic oath.

With out legislation, he could not have acted due to the current and exsisting polices and if he had of, he would have been struck off, sued and never got insurance to practice again.

The lack of legislation for the last 20 years ties the hands of drs who want to save lives.

otto_26

If a Irish woman living in Ireland needs a termination because the pregnancy is a risk to her life then the doctors will do the termination to save the women's life. What has this story got to do with abortion or pro-lifers? Its a story about doctors not doing their job properly.

Vinta81

That's awful RIP

seenitall

ABajaninCork wrote: »

OMG!! I've just read the story. I hope to God it isn't true. How the **** could they leave that poor woman to die in agony?:eek: You wouldn't do that to a dog!

It simply beggars belief this could happen in a so-called developed country.

I sincerely hope that the enquiry leaves no stone unturned in the quest to find the truth, and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law those responsible.

Mind you - I seriously doubt that will happen - unfortunately

Prosecute, on what grounds? For keeping within the law of the land?

K-9

af_thefragile wrote: »

But such scenarios are never as black and white. Its not that if the fetus was removed early she wouldn't have ended up getting an infection and septicaemia. There are many risks and complications associated with miscarriage. There might be some issue of poor protocols and guidelines for acting in such situations which is more of an issue for the HSE to deal with to bring in proper guidelines for when such a situation arises.

If it is agreed the foetus is no longer viable really that makes the above argument moot, the risk of complications is a secondary issue. There is no point in making the woman suffer more.

What I'm trying to say is don't make it a issue that pro-choicers use as propaganda to beat up the pro-lifers and the catholic church with.

Well I'd be quite pro life so no propaganda here, just frustration at trying to save a baby that had no chance of life because of some concern over rules about abortion.

Also many doctors in Ireland are fairly lenient towards abortions. They won't do it themselves but if someone really needs it, they'll happily refer them to a hospital in UK where they can get it done. The only issue might be towards implementing proper guidelines for emergencies as such.

Irish women have a right to information on abortion so I don't think they are doing anything illegal. Plenty would give you their wrath for just being a teenager looking for the morning after pill though.

irishfeen

Sharrow wrote: »

The lack of legislation for the last 20 years ties the hands of drs who want to save lives.

Surely a doctor's conscience especially when he/she knows it is the right thing to do would take preference rather than the lack of legislation. A doctor is entrusted to do the right thing by the patient... END OF

Corkfeen

otto_26 wrote: »

If a Irish woman living in Ireland needs a termination because the pregnancy is a risk to her life then the doctors will do the termination to save the women's life. What has this story got to do with abortion or pro-lifers? Its a story about doctors not doing their job properly.

Legally they can't do so at this point in time.

Stheno

af_thefragile wrote: »

Its done all the time. Maybe things changed since that story...

otto_26 wrote: »

If a Irish woman living in Ireland needs a termination because the pregnancy is a risk to her life then the doctors will do the termination to save the women's life. What has this story got to do with abortion or pro-lifers? Its a story about doctors not doing their job properly.

No they won't. They will refer you abroad if you are lucky or you figure out where to go with the help of other groups.

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

we really have to work as hard as possible to dismantle the hold that the catholic cult of pure and utter evil has over this country

Berlin at night wrote: »

Unreal, a tragedy like this could have been avoided if the church kept its nose out medical practice. I'm so glad I'm an athiest.

No we don't need the church to do anything. We need OUR government to implement the legislation that WE clearly gave them a mandate to to over 20 years ago.

Stheno

irishfeen wrote: »

Surely a doctor's conscience especially when he/she knows it is the right thing to do would take preference rather than the lack of legislation. A doctor is entrusted to do the right thing by the patient... END OF

Two words

Malpractice and illegality

ABajaninCork

seenitall wrote: »

Prosecute, on what grounds? For keeping within the law of the land?

Manslaughter at the very least if I had my way.

In what way did the doctors keep to the law of the land? AFAIK, there is scope for an abortion in certain circumstances is there not? Why was this not done in this case?

How is what happened following the law of the land? Please enlighten me...

Is it currently illegal to perform a termination like that in Ireland?

partyatmygaff

I don't see why people are blaming the Catholic Church. They don't make the law in Ireland.

Therapeutic abortions aren't legislated for but they're not illegal if the court case from a few years back is anything to go by.

The consultant took the easy way out and played it safe by the law rather than entering a legal grey area. Legally, he did nothing wrong. From a professional point of view, he put his fear of going in to the legal "unknown" ahead of his duty of care to his patient. The blame should really be on the government neglecting to legislate for therapeutic abortion.

Gbear

Sharrow wrote: »

With out legislation, he could not have acted due to the current and exsisting polices and if he had of, he would have been struck off, sued and never got insurance to practice again.

Like I said, if they're capable of rationalising letting a women die because of the damage it would do to them professionally then not only are they unfit to be a doctor but unfit to live in society at all.

Being insane enough to act in that way is common enough but you'd have to be a serious sociopath to put your career ahead of someone else's life in such a way.

rainbow kirby

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it currently illegal to perform a termination like that in Ireland?

Legal grey area. The X Case judgement provides for it but it has never been legislated for because our governments have no spine.

kraggy

Duiske wrote: »

It should be instant arrest, and hopefully a prosecution for manslaughter.

Why? Because he acted according to the law? What happened shouldn't have happened, but the doctor couldn't act outside the law.

It hasn't been written in to law. That's the problem. It needs to be cleared up legally so that this sort of backwards **** never happens again.

irishfeen

Stheno wrote: »

Two words

Malpractice and illegality

But doesn't the 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

otto_26

Corkfeen wrote: »

Legally they can't do so at this point in time.

Really well that's untrue. It is fully legal for termination in Ireland if the woman's life is at risk Fully legal.

But please show proof otherwise.......

K-9

Duiske wrote: »

It should be instant arrest, and hopefully a prosecution for manslaughter.

The sad thing is the consultant could well be able to defend his initial decision as the mothers life would not have been at risk and the baby wasn't viable. That's the vagueness of the current wording.

As the complications then went on for 3 days and the risk obviously increased negligence looks very, very arguable.

Smidge

Tragic story..
I hope this doctors remarks were not instigated by the fact that the poor woman was Muslim ie "THIS is a CATHOLIC country.

I wonder why if the baby still had a heart beat and the dr was conflicted, why not deliver the baby, we know it wouldn't have survived either way(given what the article said) and that way his hands were "clean" with respect to an abortion.

And if done in a timely manner it may well have saved that woman's life.

I think the only God here was a Dr with a "God Complex"

markesmith

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I sincerely hope that the enquiry leaves no stone unturned in the quest to find the truth, and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law those responsible.

You do realise this is Ireland, right?

We don't have a very good track record with inquiries.

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it currently illegal to perform a termination like that in Ireland?

irishfeen wrote: »

But doesn't the 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

Here is where the seperation of legal powers comes in.

The courts rule what is lawful.
If that is not currently written into our laws, the government must legislate.

Over twenty years the government have failed to address the issue of the 92 ruling as they (successive governments) fear the consequences of doing so from the pro-life lobby.

The govt. have even been taken to the ECHR and ignored it.

So it is still unlawful under any circumstance to perform an abortion in Ireland.

seenitall

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Manslaughter at the very least if I had my way.

In what way did the doctors keep to the law of the land? AFAIK, there is scope for an abortion in certain circumstances is there not? Why was this not done in this case?

How is what happened following the law of the land? Please enlighten me...

The case where a woman's life is in danger needing abortion still hasn't been legislated for - in other words, the doctor did nothing illegal by doing nothing. And would have been breaking the law by performing the abortion.

EDIT: See partyatmygaff's and Stheno's posts for a good explanation, too.

Dubhlinner

any politician who's been a cabinet minister or prominent in a leading party over the last 20 years has this womans blood on their hands.

and to be fair; to some extent so do the rest of us who didn't actively protest various governments not legislating for this

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

Really well that's untrue. It is fully legal for termination in Ireland if the woman's life is at risk Fully legal.

But please show proof otherwise.......

Point me to the legislation in the Statute books that has this written into law please?

Rascasse

I was googling to find out what the actual law is here. I assumed that termination was legal to protect the mothers life but it seems that it isn't legislated for.

Only two months ago the Irish Times printed this article about a conference in Dublin on the issue. I've copied a precis of the article below:

AN INTERNATIONAL symposium on maternal healthcare in Dublin at the weekend has concluded that abortion is never medically necessary to save the life of a mother.

While many of the organisers have been involved in anti-abortion events in the past, a spokesman for the group, Dr Eoghan de Faoite, told The Irish Times the event was not linked in any way to the Pro-Life Campaign or any other organisation.

“All organisers were involved in their professional capacity and were not here to represent any pro-life position,” he said.

Prof O’Dwyer and a panel of speakers also formally agreed a “Dublin declaration” on maternal healthcare. It stated: “As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

“We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

“We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”

I really hope this woman wasn't a victim of the "Dublin declaration".

It will be interesting to see if the media are able to find out who her medical team were and if Prof O’Dwyer, Dr John Monaghan, Dr John Greene, Dr Eoghan de Faoite, Sinéad Dennehy or any other forum attendees were among them.

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

Here is where the seperation of legal powers comes in.

The courts rule what is lawful.
If that is not currently written into our laws, the government must legislate.

Over twenty years the government have failed to address the issue of the 92 ruling as they (successive governments) fear the consequences of doing so from the pro-life lobby.

The govt. have even been taken to the ECHR and ignored it.

So it is still unlawful under any circumstance to perform an abortion in Ireland.

This is going to sound like an idiotic question, but is there a difference between unlawful and illegal?

I'm going to assume that if there is one then unlawful means that there isn't a law against it to break..?

irishfeen

Stheno wrote: »

Here is where the seperation of legal powers comes in.

The courts rule what is lawful.
If that is not currently written into our laws, the government must legislate.

Over twenty years the government have failed to address the issue of the 92 ruling as they (successive governments) fear the consequences of doing so from the pro-life lobby.

The govt. have even been taken to the ECHR and ignored it.

So it is still unlawful under any circumstance to perform an abortion in Ireland.

But couldn't a doctor go to the High Court/European Court of Human Rights and get any decision overturned in any case regardless of whether he is found guilty because of government inaction?

lukesmom

About time abortion was legalised in this country ran by idiots. I am so angry reading this.

May this lady rest in peace

ABajaninCork

markesmith wrote: »

You do realise this is Ireland, right?

We don't have a very good track record with inquiries.

Sadly, yes. I did add a footnote to that effect...

Amalgam

UTV NEWS gave this some report time late in the evening, including an Irish Times cover shot.

Awful event.

otto_26

Stheno wrote: »

Point me to the legislation in the Statute books that has this written into law please?

Point me to the legislation in the Statute books that has this written, where it says it is illegal for the medical intervention to save the life of the mother?

Because this is what you are saying?

GRMA

Would she have survived if she had an abortion?

otto_26

lukesmom wrote: »

About time abortion was legalised in this country ran by idiots. I am so angry reading this.

May this lady rest in peace

If a Irish woman living in Ireland needs a termination because the pregnancy is a risk to her life then the doctors will do the termination to save the women's life. What has this story got to do with abortion or pro-lifers? Its a story about doctors not doing their job properly. :rolleyes:

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

This is going to sound like an idiotic question, but is there a difference between unlawful and illegal?

I'm going to assume that if there is one then unlawful means that there isn't a law against it to break..?

Sorry they mean the same, currently there is no legislating allowing for any form of abortion so to carry out an abortion is an illegal/unlawful act

irishfeen wrote: »

But couldn't a doctor go to the High Court/European Court of Human Rights and get any decision overturned in any case regardless of whether he is found guilty because of government inaction?

After the fact? After they had commited the "crime" of carrying out an abortion and being reported to the Medical Council etc?

The medical profession here (and this is where the church comes in) is still heavily influenced by the church and I don't think any doctor who carried out an abortion in any circumstances would get away with it.

The defence of "it saved the womans life" might be upheld by the courts, but they would also have to rule in the context of current laws which is that abortion is illegal.

The govt have ignored the Supreme Court on this for 20 years, what makes you think a doctor would ruin their career for the sake of one persons life on that basis?

I'm just after reading the article in the times.

My heart goes out to the husband.

I'm just mad....

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

If a Irish woman living in Ireland needs a termination because the pregnancy is a risk to her life then the doctors will do the termination to save the women's life. What has this story got to do with abortion or pro-lifers? Its a story about doctors not doing their job properly. :rolleyes:

Would you please please point us to the legislation in the statute books to back up your statement as I've already asked you?

Also inherent in your post is a suggestion that because the poor woman who died was not Irish she did not get equal treatment?

Why would an Irish woman living in Ireland get a termination and someone who is a non-national not?

Your arguments are non sensical and have no basis in fact.

evercloserunion

otto_26 wrote: »

Point me to the legislation in the Statute books that has this written, where it says it is illegal for the medical intervention to save the life of the mother?

Because this is what you are saying?

Abortion is prohibited in Ireland by sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861:

58. Every Woman, being with Child, who, with Intent to procure her own Miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any Poison or other noxious Thing, or shall unlawfully use any Instrument or other Means whatsoever with the like Intent, and whosoever, with Intent to procure the Miscarriage of any Woman, whether she be or be not with Child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any Poison or other noxious Thing, or shall unlawfully use any Instrument or other Means whatsoever with the like Intent, shall be guilty of [an offence], and being convicted thereof shall be liable, ..., to [imprisonment] for Life ....

59. Whosoever shall unlawfully supply or procure any Poison or other noxious Thing, or any Instrument or Thing whatsoever, knowing that the same is intended to be unlawfully used or employed with Intent to procure the Miscarriage of any Woman, whether she be or be not with Child, shall be guilty of [an offence], and being convicted thereof shall be liable, ..., to [imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years].

There is no exception there for cases where the mother's life is in danger.

The mother can travel to another jurisdiction for an abortion in such circumstances, and the Constitution allows for legislation providing an exception to the ban in such circumstances, but no such exception has actually been created by legislation.

irishfeen

Stheno wrote: »

what makes you think a doctor would ruin their career for the sake of one persons life on that basis?

I think any decent doctor would take the option of ruining his/her career rather than having blood on their hands for the rest of their lives.

K-9

The practice of caesarian hysterectomies by Michael Neary and by other doctors was defended at the time because of Catholic church teaching. It would seem the more things change, the more they stay the same, Ireland is still Catholic in the eyes of some.