Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Duggy747

What should've been the beginning of a family has now left a man with nothing.

Stupid shìt like this shouldn't happen in a developed country.

MadsL

Smidge wrote: »

Tragic story..
I hope this doctors remarks were not instigated by the fact that the poor woman was Muslim ie "THIS is a CATHOLIC country.

She's wearing a bindi in the photo so she's probably a Hindu. Imagine travelling to India and refused treatment and allowed to die because "This is a Hindu Country and we believe in reincarnation!"

If this does not force X Case legislation then politicians should truly be shot.

seenitall

irishfeen wrote: »

I think any decent doctor would take the option of ruining his/her career rather than having blood on their hands for the rest of their lives.

A doctor's "decency"/morality/religion/Hobbit worship should have nothing whatsoever to do with it. He/she should have been required by the law to carry out the procedure.

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

Point me to the legislation in the Statute books that has this written, where it says it is illegal for the medical intervention to save the life of the mother?

Because this is what you are saying?

Section 58 and 59 of the Offences against the person act state:

58. Every Woman, being with Child, who, with Intent to procure her own Miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any Poison or other noxious Thing, or shall unlawfully use any Instrument or other Means whatsoever with the like Intent, and whosoever, with Intent to procure the Miscarriage of any Woman, whether she be or be not with Child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any Poison or other noxious Thing, or shall unlawfully use any Instrument or other Means whatsoever with the like Intent, shall be guilty of [an offence], and being convicted thereof shall be liable, ..., to [imprisonment] for Life .... [3]

59. Whosoever shall unlawfully supply or procure any Poison or other noxious Thing, or any Instrument or Thing whatsoever, knowing that the same is intended to be unlawfully used or employed with Intent to procure the Miscarriage of any Woman, whether she be or be not with Child, shall be guilty of [an offence], and being convicted thereof shall be liable, ..., to [imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years].[4]

The text of the 1992 amendment stated:

It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction.

That has never been written into law.
Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:

Section 21 deals with the issue of Abortion.

Section 21.1 reads

21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother. Under current legal precedent, this exception includes where there is a clear and substantial risk to the life of the mother arising from a threat of suicide. You should undertake a full assessment of any such risk in light of the clinical research on this issue.

Section 21.2 deals with information about abortions.

Section 21.3 deals with the duty to provide care and support for women who have had abortions abroad.

Section 21.4 states

21.4 In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy) is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving. In these exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while making every effort to preserve the life of the baby.

So it's very vague, and not even law

GRMA wrote: »

Would she have survived if she had an abortion?

Most likely, if they had aborted on day one or two, her risk of septicemia as the cervix closed would have been far less.

ABajaninCork

MadsL wrote: »

She's wearing a bindi in the photo so she's probably a Hindu. Imagine travelling to India and refused treatment and allowed to die because "This is a Hindu Country and we believe in reincarnation!"

If this does not force X Case legislation then politicians should truly be shot.

The lady was indeed Hindu. And I totally agree with you.

Poor lady. May she and her baby RIP

Sierra Oscar

K-9 wrote: »

The practice of caesarian hysterectomies by Michael Neary and by other doctors was defended at the time because of Catholic church teaching. It would seem the more things change, the more they stay the same, Ireland is still Catholic in the eyes of some.

****ing disgraceful. Religion should have no role to play within the medical profession.

It is time that we demanded for legislation regarding the X case.

MadsL

Stheno wrote: »

Section 58 and 59 of the Offences against the person act state:

58. Every Woman, being with Child, who, with Intent to procure her own Miscarriage, shall unlawfully administer to herself any Poison or other noxious Thing, or shall unlawfully use any Instrument or other Means whatsoever with the like Intent, and whosoever, with Intent to procure the Miscarriage of any Woman, whether she be or be not with Child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any Poison or other noxious Thing, or shall unlawfully use any Instrument or other Means whatsoever with the like Intent, shall be guilty of [an offence], and being convicted thereof shall be liable, ..., to [imprisonment] for Life .... [3]

Holy shit. A girl getting abortificant pills from the UK is liable for a LIFE SENTENCE in prison!!

That's messed up.

BostonB

K-9 wrote: »

That isn't really the issue, if the consultant had said there was no chance of the baby surviving he should have agreed to her wishes and performed an "abortion".

AFAIK they can't (legally?) perform an abortion if there's signs of life and the mother isn't at immediate risk. AFAIK mothers carry a baby that won't survive to term, if the baby survives to that point.

Gbear

Stheno wrote: »

The govt have ignored the Supreme Court on this for 20 years, what makes you think a doctor would ruin their career for the sake of one persons life on that basis?

Basic human decency.

We should be talking about how a doctor defied a nonsensical legislative approach to abortion and is now the target of a completely unjust disciplinary process and/or prosecution.

It reflects appallingly on the individual that we aren't.

Sarky

The public has been demanding legislation for the X Case for twenty bloody years, and nothing's happened. Twenty years! And in all that time not a single politician that passed through the Dáil had enough of a spine to do their job and f*cking legislate for it.

Smidge

ABajaninCork wrote: »

The lady was indeed Hindu. And I totally agree with you.

Poor lady. May she and her baby RIP

Apologies, my mind read Muslim.
She was indeed Hindu.

Poor soul and family, terrible loss over stupidity.

Sorcha16

If this happened in medieval darkest Africa, it would be sad and tragic -for it to happen in a so-called developed country in 2012 is a downright disgrace

RDM_83 again

Ok not particularly knowledgeable about how Irish law on abortion/termination (I use both because 'abortion' can be defined as termination of a viable fetus) is interpreted but I thought this was exactly the sort of case that was permitted even if not legislated directly for.

I'm a firm believer in the Irish health care systems capacity to fcuk up badly without any help from outside influences!

otto_26

Stheno wrote: »

Would you please please point us to the legislation in the statute books to back up your statement as I've already asked you?

Would you please please point us to the legislation in the statute books to back up your statement as I've already asked you?

Hmm wonder why you haven't done this yourself maybe I asked you a unreasonable question maybe it's not written in the statute books that it is illegal for medical intervention to save the life of the mother so you can't show me....

The whole point is it's not about whether it's in the statute book it's about would it be illegal for the doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother and the answer is no it is not illegal, simple.

Stheno wrote: »

Also inherent in your post is a suggestion that because the poor woman who died was not Irish she did not get equal treatment?

Why would an Irish woman living in Ireland get a termination and someone who is a non-national not?

Your arguments are non sensical and have no basis in fact.

WOW no there was absolutely no suggestion that because the poor woman who died was not Irish she did not get equal treatment:rolleyes::rolleyes:.. You have got that all wrong I was simply describing the facts about Irish women and termination in Ireland.

And WOW you then also claim it's now my argument!! :rolleyes:

tony81

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well done to the scum in Youth Defence, they have blood on their hands.

Disgraceful attitude.
Perhaps she had pregnancy complications and septicemia, but do you know for certain that she was denied abortion and that's what caused her death?
In Ireland no pregnant woman is denied medical treatment, even treatment that will end he life of the baby if it will save the mother.
That's our law, and it's the reason Irish women have so few abortions yet one of the lowest mortality in child birth rates in the world.
Stick to the facts and stop dragging up tragedies to push your own agenda.

Stheno

MadsL wrote: »

Stheno wrote: »

Section 58 and 59 of the Offences against the person act state:



Holy shit. A girl getting abortificant pills from the UK is liable for a LIFE SENTENCE in prison!!

That's messed up.

Welcome to Ireland 2012

I should have said, but was too caught up arguing, my sincere condolences to the family of the young lady who died. What a dreadful time for them, when it should have been a time of celebration and welcoming a new life into the world.

Seaneh

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

depends on what he valued more, his nutjob religious belief or his Hippocratic oath.

Or his job and ability to practice medicine in Ireland...

If his hands were tied by the law, there is NOTHING he could do about it.

seenitall

tony81 wrote: »

In Ireland no pregnant woman is denied medical treatment, even treatment that will end he life of the baby if it will save the mother.
That's our law,

LOL.

Seaneh

Deleted User wrote: »

Just read the article. So she asked for the termination but was refused on the grounds that it's a Catholic country.

Absolutely disgusting.

Hospitals and any hospital staff should not have any pro-life or pro-choice agendas and should focus solely on what is right for the patient regardless of personal feelings.

She was denied on the grounds that the law in Ireland is extremely clear and if anyone in the hospital had have carried out an abortion, they could have ended up in jail.

Don't blame the hospital, blame the law.

otto_26

Stheno wrote: »

Section 58 and 59 of the Offences against the person act state:



The text of the 1992 amendment stated:



That has never been written into law.
Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:



So it's very vague, and not even law



Most likely, if they had aborted on day one or two, her risk of septicemia as the cervix closed would have been far less.

Yes but it doesn't matter that it isn't written into law, because the fact is that it is not illegal for the doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother..

Therefore what had abortion or pro-lifers got to do with this?? Its about a doctor not doing his job properly...because it would have been legal what he did if he terminated.

flynnlives

tony81 wrote: »

Disgraceful attitude.
Perhaps she had pregnancy complications and septicemia, but do you know for certain that she was denied abortion and that's what caused her death?
In Ireland no pregnant woman is denied medical treatment, even treatment that will end he life of the baby if it will save the mother.
That's our law, and it's the reason Irish women have so few abortions yet one of the lowest mortality in child birth rates in the world.
Stick to the facts and stop dragging up tragedies to push your own agenda.

The article says the coroner returned a verdict that she died of septicemia and Ecoli.
Its quite easy to get septicemia with a partial miscarriage.
Also her cervix been open for 3 days would add to that.

how about reading the facts before pushing your own agenda!

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

Would you please please point us to the legislation in the statute books to back up your statement as I've already asked you?

Hmm wonder why you haven't done this yourself maybe I asked you a unreasonable question maybe it's not written in the statute books that it is illegal for medical intervention to save the life of the mother so you can't show me....

The whole point is it's not about whether it's in the statute book it's about would it be illegal for the doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother and the answer is no it is not illegal, simple.



WOW no there was absolutely no suggestion that because the poor woman who died was not Irish she did not get equal treatment:rolleyes::rolleyes:.. You have got that all wrong I was simply describing the facts about Irish women and termination in Ireland.

And WOW you then also claim it's now my argument!! :rolleyes:

I have pointed you to the legislation and queried your Irish woman Irish hospital post. If you meant all women living in Ireland I apologise.

At the end of the day, the lack of legislation means doctors are following the letter of the law as my reference to the medical council guidelines pointed out along with the offences against the person act.

I still haven't seen you provide anything to support your argument? Have you not found it yet? There is no law apart from the very vague guidelines the Medical Council provide.

Solair

First of all, I'd just like to send my absolute support to her family and may she rest in peace.

The whole incident is just mind-bogglingly ridiculous, shocking, frustrating and to be quite honest I don't even have words. It just makes me really angry!

Why hasn't this legislation been passed? Why are women's lives being put at risk?

According to the most recent opinion polling :

A September 2012 Sunday Times/Behaviour and Attitudes poll of 923 people showed that 80% of voters would support a change to the law to allow abortion where the life of the woman was at risk, with 16% opposed and 4% undecided

So, what exactly is the Government doing not dealing with this issue? It's not even controversial anymore! Wake up and DEAL WITH IT!

Sadly, the Government's complete inaction, hand-wringing and complete lack of leadership has resulted in someone dying horribly.

You should hang your collective brainwashed heads in shame!

All this state does is preserve the status quo no matter how ridiculous that is.

tony81

Cookie monster, this hippocratic oath? (Much better than those catholic and religious nutjobs)

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

Snip

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

seb65

tony81 wrote: »

Disgraceful attitude.
Perhaps she had pregnancy complications and septicemia, but do you know for certain that she was denied abortion and that's what caused her death?
In Ireland no pregnant woman is denied medical treatment, even treatment that will end he life of the baby if it will save the mother.
That's our law, and it's the reason Irish women have so few abortions yet one of the lowest mortality in child birth rates in the world.
Stick to the facts and stop dragging up tragedies to push your own agenda.

Irish women get abortions in England all the time.

CLEARLY this pregnant woman was denied medical treatment. Even if she hadn't died they let her suffer for three days while she was miscarrying a baby she already adored. Absolutely disgusting. I'm not Irish, but I live here and I don't care if my husband and have to be separated for my whole pregnancy, I will go home to have my children. I would NEVER have a baby in this country. It's shown that it sees women as disposable, mere incubators.

otto_26

Seaneh wrote: »

She was denied on the grounds that the law in Ireland is extremely clear and if anyone in the hospital had have carried out an abortion, they could have ended up in jail.

Don't blame the hospital, blame the law.

She was denied on the grounds that the doctor did not do his job properly your claims are untrue it is not illegal for a doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother in fact it is legal.

GRMA

seb65 wrote: »

Irish women get abortions in England all the time.

CLEARLY this pregnant woman was denied medical treatment. Even if she hadn't died they let her suffer for three days while she was miscarrying a baby she already adored. Absolutely disgusting. I'm not Irish, but I live here and I don't care if my husband and have to be separated for my whole pregnancy, I will go home to have my children. I would NEVER have a baby in this country. It's shown that it sees women as disposable, mere incubators.

Eben tough Ireland is one of he safest countries in the world in which to give birth? The stats back that claim up too.

seenitall

otto_26 wrote: »

She was denied on the grounds that the doctor did not do his job properly your claims are untrue it is not illegal for a doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother in fact it is legal.

No, it's not, and that's why this woman died.

Seaneh

seb65 wrote: »

CLEARLY this pregnant woman was denied medical treatment.

You know absolutely nothing about the case beyond a few lines in a newspaper and the usual inflammatory dribble posted on after hours and yet you make positive exclamations like above?

Bit ****ing silly, isn't it?

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

She was denied on the grounds that the doctor did not do his job properly your claims are untrue it is not illegal for a doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother in fact it is legal.

Or possibly according to the Medical Council guidelines I've quoted "giving due consideration to the health of the baby"

I do believe doctors here in this field are extremely cautious as a result of the ambiguous wording of the guidelines they have and the lack of clear law.

GRMA

I think it's disgusting that people are laying politics, not those on the thread but the Clare Daly-ites elsewhere, with this womans death when we don't even know the full story yet.

Seaneh

otto_26 wrote: »

She was denied on the grounds that the doctor did not do his job properly your claims are untrue it is not illegal for a doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother in fact it is legal.

You know NOTHING of the case!
How can you say anything with certainty right now?

You are talking through your hoop.

irishfeen

Surely this will be the final straw meaning the Government will have to act and finally put the issue to a referendum?

seenitall

Seaneh wrote: »

You know absolutely nothing about the case beyond a few lines in a newspaper and the usual inflammatory dribble posted on after hours and yet you make positive exclamations like above?

Bit ****ing silly, isn't it?

Am I missing something here? What conclusion did the article lead you to?

Or do you mean to say she was denied the relevant medical treatment? :rolleyes:

GRMA

irishfeen wrote: »

Surely this will be the final straw meaning the Government will have to act and finally put the issue to a referendum?

lol... it has been already

seb65

GRMA wrote: »

Eben tough Ireland is one of he safest countries in the world in which to give birth? The stats back that claim up too.

One of the safest....there are others. I wonder how much comfort knowing his wife was pregnant in one of the safest countries to give birth is to that poor, poor man.

I'll go home where they believe women are precious too and where they are not so cold hearted that they'd let someone writher in pain and misery for days for no reason.

Seaneh

seenitall wrote: »

Am I missing something here? What conclusion did the article lead you to?

Or do you mean to say she was denied the relevant medical treatment? :rolleyes:

No, I mean to say that nobody outside the hospital has any idea what happened, why decisions were made, who made them or what actually caused her death.

Everything in this thread is pure conjecture.

irishfeen

GRMA wrote: »

lol... it has been already

So a referendum isn't actually needed?:eek:

otto_26

seenitall wrote: »

No, it's not, and that's why this woman died.

The woman died because the doctor did not do his job properly simple.

It would not have been illegal for him to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother.. SO we are talking about a doctor not doing his job properly not about laws..

Seaneh

seb65 wrote: »

One of the safest....there are others. I wonder how much comfort knowing his wife was pregnant in one of the safest countries to give birth is to that poor, poor man.

I'll go home where they believe women are precious too and where they are not so cold hearted that they'd let someone writher in pain and misery for days for no reason.

Stay there while you're at it and don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

:rolleyes:

seb65

Seaneh wrote: »

No, I mean to say that nobody outside the hospital has any idea what happened, why decisions were made, who made them or what actually caused her death.

Everything in this thread is pure conjecture.

So her husband lied?

seb65

Seaneh wrote: »

Stay there while you're at it and don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

:rolleyes:

Gladly

Laneyh

As the woman was a dentist she would have had a medical background herself.
Coult they not have advised her fully on day one and off the record prompted her to go to Northern Ireland?

The comment about the being a catholic country if it was said was unnecessary and somewhat antagonising.

In any case the whole thing is a shambles and a tragic loss of life for stupid reasons.

jill_valentine

FFS.

Ireland, it's time to put your big kid pants on and deal with this once and for all. No more cowardice or can kicking or winking at ferry terminals, we cannot pretend there are no consequences to the Irish Solution we've been trying to hide behind.

otto_26

Seaneh wrote: »

You know NOTHING of the case!
How can you say anything with certainty right now?

You are talking through your hoop.

I know its not illegal for a Doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother... So I know we are not talking about laws that killed her....

seenitall

otto_26 wrote: »

It would not have been illegal for him to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother...

Again, just LOL. But have it your way, I always say denial is one of the most powerful things there is.

Stheno

Solair wrote: »

Why hasn't this legislation been passed? Why are women's lives being put at risk?

Successive governments have been afraid of the impact on their rating by the more conservative elements of society.

Popular polls might suggest it is no longer controversial, but an awful lot of the grey vote etc would be horrified.

irishfeen wrote: »

Surely this will be the final straw meaning the Government will have to act and finally put the issue to a referendum?

We had the relevant referendum passed by a majority 20 years ago!

irishfeen wrote: »

So a referendum isn't actually needed?:eek:

Nope 1992 we had that one! They did legislate for the right to travel and the right to information, but not for abortion in certain cirumstances in this country.

Dunno if you are old enough to remember it, I was 19 at the time and it was one of the first referenda I voted in, it was an extraordinarily bitter campaign.

Pride Fighter

GRMA wrote: »

Eben tough Ireland is one of he safest countries in the world in which to give birth? The stats back that claim up too.

That absolute lie that the ecclesiastical right spout has been blown out of the water with this case.

Also even without this case it is grossly inaccurate. Ireland's overcrowded hospitals with some of the worst hygiene standards in western medicine is one of the worst places in the industrialised world to give birth. Despite excellent healthcare professionals, institutional failures have ensured Ireland is a bad place to have a child.

So pull the other one, I don't think people on here are stupid enough to believe that lie.

Seaneh

seb65 wrote: »

So her husband lied?

I didn't say that either, I am saying that the Hospital didn't just let a woman die, and everyone on here saying they did is just spreading nonsense, without knowing the actual details of the case, nobody can make any judgements on what happened.

There are a million and one reasons why this could have went wrong and without knowing which reason that is you cannot assign blame to anyone.


This is how witch hunts start and peoples reputations and lives are ruins because of baying mobs on uninformed idiots.

Sarky

Seaneh wrote: »

Stay there while you're at it and don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

:rolleyes:

This kind of response is shameful.

"Well screw you with your sensible ideas and disgust at our crappy system! F*ck off and let us have a crappy system in peace!"

Attitudes like yours are the reason the X Case hasn't been legislated for in twenty years. Perhaps you could get off your arse and actually try to make the country a bit better instead of moaning all the damn time?