Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Madam_X

Well I dislike that trashy headline too, however Indian hospitals would have allowed a termination, but really the back and forth good/bad points about each country are irrelevant ultimately to this tragedy.

gozunda

partyatmygaff wrote: »

"Pain" cannot be a diagnosis. Pain is a symptom, not a condition.

As for "abnormally huge" it was the first term that came to me for describing a particularly high level of pain that still paled in comparison to the pain of advanced septicaemia.

No need to excuse yourself. Not having incredibly fragile sensibilities and being able to handle incredibly unorthodox terms like "abnormally huge pain" isn't for everyone after all

By diagnosis I was referring to the determination of a specific level of pain as in "abnormally huge" as opposed to say "abysmally little" for example

Hmmm So you are actually telling me its not a medical term :?

Out of interest are you a medical professional is the above a selection your own opinions?

Pherekydes

frfintanstack wrote: »

Most miscarriages have very little pain and can be utterly painless, in fact many women don't even realise they've had one.

How many miscarriages have you had?

InReality

My feeling is that the asking for a termination freaked the docs. If she and her husband had just asked for a second opinion instead , another doc might have done whatever was needed.
Its a sad case.

partyatmygaff

gozunda wrote: »

So you are actually telling me its not a medical term :?

Out of interest are you a medical professional is the above a selection your own opinions?

At the moment, just a student and that's my opinion on the case.

Cookie_Monster

this story even made the paper today out here in New Plymouth which is really unusual for any non rugby related story

gozunda

partyatmygaff wrote: »

At the moment, just a student and that's my opinion on the case.

Medical student?

EEm

Hi, just wondering did she die because she didn't get rid of the baby? Or what?

steddyeddy

THis is an absolute disgrace to be honest. I understand the doctors were bound by law but to be honest I would prefer if medics operated by science rather than some worthless anti human law. Medics should have precedence over some catholic bs. Im not happy that one Doctor aparantly said "this is a catholic country".

Im no doctor but Im a biological scientist and hope to research diseases and I can safely say I wouldnt pay heed to some fairy tale law if it possibly meant the death of a human life.

Im not religious at all but I love a particualr bible expression that sums it up " The law was made for man, not man for the law". Man supercedes law, end of.

petersburg2002

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Indian news isn't exactly holding back on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81765677&postcount=2202

Pot calling kettle black. Perhaps they should sort their child slavery problem and their own scandalous treatment of women and girls before lecturing the rest of the world.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/10/201110415385524923.html

gozunda

EEm wrote: »

Hi, just wondering did she die because she didn't get rid of the baby? Or what?

At the moment there is no clear answer

Looks like the coroners report should give some clarity on this

What is known is that on admission she was fully dilated and was leaking amniotic fluid with the implication that she was at a high risk of infection

A US medical professional has suggested that given the available information a termination should have been undertaken to minimise the risk of infection and maximise the woman's chances of recovery

billybudd

gozunda wrote: »

BB thanks for that - you appear to have been a mine of amazing detail - none of which I'm afraid I have paid a blind bit of notice to date tbh...no offence intended

How would you know? none taken.

However as you have replied to my last post I will suggest that with regard to our international reputation - it's taken hell of a battering - take a look at every single major newspaper / TV channel worldwide. Rightly or wrongly Ireland has come out as a medieval backwater with a belief system to match. Only a fully transparent response and action by the government to this horrendous matter is likely to help regain this.

Small potatoes in the scheme of things, internationally it will be forgotten about next week.

This is supposed to be the Year of the Gathering when we persuade poor benighted escapees to return so that they can hand over their well earned dosh so that we can continue paying developers to build mansions in bogs in the national interest.

Called tourism, new marketing every year, this one is very clever though.


As you have asked I for one give a Shyte. I know plenty others both here and abroad who are also. The more pressure nationally and internationally brought on this dank little island and its corrupt and bankrupt systems the better for all of us imo.

The world has bigger problems than our little ''dank'' Island.

I like the Gathering postcard idea...the rubbed in detritus that they have gathered in the bin adds a certain pathos...

We agree on something.

steddyeddy

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Pot calling kettle black. Perhaps they should sort their child slavery problem and their own scandalous treatment of women and girls before lecturing the rest of the world.

Ill treatment of women and children? Care to think of any irish examples of that?

partyatmygaff

gozunda wrote: »

Medical student?

Pharmacy actually.

Madam_X

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Pot calling kettle black. Perhaps they should sort their child slavery problem and their own scandalous treatment of women and girls before lecturing the rest of the world.

A crappy headline writer isn't the Indian government.

gozunda

billybudd wrote: »

We agree on something.

Just one thing - I notice you use the reply function but have included your comments within the the original quote - it makes a further reply by another poster very confusing for anyone else reading

For example I replied to your last post but the reply only picked up the one comment placed outside the original quote...

With regard to the postcards, if you don't mind sharing - what are you putting on yours?

petersburg2002

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ill treatment of women and children? Care to think of any irish examples of that?

Do we abort children just because they are the wrong sex? And last time I looked we dont sell children into slavery. It's 2012, not 1962.

petersburg2002

Madam_X wrote: »

A crappy headline writer isn't the Indian government.

Who mentioned the government? I didn't. I was talking about Indians as a whole. Including the writer of the inflammatory headline.

billybudd

gozunda wrote: »

Maybe so...if you don't mind sharing - what are you putting on yours?

Something along the lines that this has to be a watershed moment in our little dank Islands history that must not be let pass, that each pregnant woman recieves the best and safest health care possible, mentally and physically and that medical care professionals have a clear, precise and transparent mandate to work with that is clear in legislation that leaves no room for fear of reprecussions after the event.

billybudd

gozunda wrote: »

Just one thing - I notice you use the reply function but have included your comments within the the original quote - it makes a further reply by another poster very confusing for anyone else reading

For example I replied to your last post but the reply only picked up the one comment placed outside the original quote...

With regard to the postcards, if you don't mind sharing - what are you putting on yours?

Yes, do not know why that happened.

Madam_X

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Who mentioned the government? I didn't. I was talking about Indians as a whole. Including the writer of the inflammatory headline.

Well the headline writer isn't Indian people as a whole. And I mentioned the government because it's behind policies you mentioned. She'd have been granted a termination on India anyway.

steddyeddy

petersburg2002 wrote: »

Do we abort children just because they are the wrong sex? And last time I looked we didn't sell children into slavery. It's 2012, not 1962.

I seem to remember children dying in "care" last year, the year before. A point thats put to me several times in the states when I lived there is "how did you'r people tolerate what went on in your country". One of the second in charge of the gaurds is currently a man who deliberatly lost files relating to brendan smyth after a victim went to him for help in the 80s. The cloyne report listed cases in the 2000s where cases were reported to gaurds and the files "surprise surprise" were lost again.

On the treatment of women, just look what happened here. Look what happened with a sexaul assaulter who was asked to pay his victim money to reduce his sentence. In Kerry we had a line of people que up to shake a rapists hand.

Sorry but im in a scientist I only accept evidence not random sayings like "the past was the past". When the head of the gaurds isnt someone responsbile for the suicide of child rape vicitms and the exact same hse workers arent working anymore then maybe we'll be able to hold our heads up high.

And finally when the majority of the Irish people accept the above then things will change.

petersburg2002

Madam_X wrote: »

Well the headline writer isn't Indian people as a whole. And I mentioned the government because it's behind policies you mentioned. She'd have been granted a termination on India anyway.

Well terminations are quite big there, especially for girls.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/10/201110415385524923.html[\URL]

billybudd

steddyeddy wrote: »

I seem to remember children dying in "care" last year, the year before. A point thats put to me several times in the states when I lived there is "how did you'r people tolerate what went on in your country". One of the second in charge of the gaurds is currently a man who deliberatly lost files relating to brendan smyth after a victim went to him for help in the 80s. The cloyne report listed cases in the 2000s where cases were reported to gaurds and the files "surprise surprise" were lost again.

On the treatment of women, just look what happened here. Look what happened with a sexaul assaulter who was asked to pay his victim money to reduce his sentence. In Kerry we had a line of people que up to shake a rapists hand.

Sorry but im in a scientist I only accept evidence not random sayings like "the past was the past". When the head of the gaurds isnt someone responsbile for the suicide of child rape vicitms and the exact same hse workers arent working anymore then maybe we'll be able to hold our heads up high.

And finally when the majority of the Irish people accept the above then things will change.

Spot on, every country has its problems but also we should not neglect our own or have the mentality that just because it happens in other places does not mean it should happen here, too many people have suffered here and its something we should remember when electing people on our behalf.

Madam_X

steddyeddy wrote: »

I seem to remember children dying in "care" last year, the year before. A point thats put to me several times in the states when I lived there is "how did you'r people tolerate what went on in your country". One of the second in charge of the gaurds is currently a man who deliberatly lost files relating to brendan smyth after a victim went to him for help in the 80s. The cloyne report listed cases in the 2000s where cases were reported to gaurds and the files "surprise surprise" were lost again.
On the treatment of women, just look what happened here. Look what happened with a sexaul assaulter who was asked to pay his victim money to reduce his sentence. In Kerry we had a line of people que up to shake a rapists hand. Sorry but im in a scientist I only accept evidence not random sayings like "the past was the past". When the head of the gaurds isnt someone responsbile for the suicide of child rape vicitms and the exact same hse workers arent working anymore then maybe we'll be able to hold our heads up high. And finally when the majority of the Irish people accept the above then things will change.

But would they? The blaming of ordinary people isn't fair IMO.

steddyeddy

Anyway back on topic for me. Just let the medics do their jobs. If we have medic operating by catholic laws as a scientist should I do the same? Why dont I say the starch as a collection of glucose molecules turn into plasma and heamoglobin to match to back up the communion transforming into the blood of christ story? Why dont we operate all our medical and scientific principles around a fairy tale.

Lingua Franca

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01165s5

Apparently there were quite a few witnesses to the "This is a Catholic country, it's against the law, our hands are tied" statement.

steddyeddy

Madam_X wrote: »

But would they? The blaming of ordinary people isn't fair IMO.

I dont want to stray off topic about it madam so feel free to pm me and Ill back up my point. Ill justify it by saying that I see no one calling for the job of the assitant head of the gaurds involved in the abuse or those of the hse workers. Like I said I dont want to go off topic about it and take away from this tragedy but if you want to pm me or me or you can start another thread on the subject?

billybudd

Lingua Franca wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01165s5

Apparently there were quite a few witnesses to the "This is a Catholic country, it's against the law, our hands are tied" statement.

Wonder why a doctor would even say that, Italy is a Catholic country and it has abortion.

steddyeddy

billybudd wrote: »

Wonder why a doctor would even say that, Italy is a Catholic country and it has abortion.

Yes that made my angry after hearing that. That doctor should face disciplinary action because of that.

MagicSean

billybudd wrote: »

Wonder why a doctor would even say that, Italy is a Catholic country and it has abortion.

Probably said it because it frustrated him that he could do nothing due to the catholic derived laws.

billybudd

MagicSean wrote: »

Probably said it because it frustrated him that he could do nothing due to the catholic derived laws.

Possibly i suppose, the reason i refuse to blame the CC is becaue i refuse to beleive that we are still under the thumb of such a depraved institution.

I would like to think we have a stronger mentality to being able to decide what is better for human life regardless of our personal beliefs.

MagicSean

billybudd wrote: »

Possibly i suppose, the reason i refuse to blame the CC is becaue i refuse to beleive that we are still under the thumb of such a depraved institution.

I would like to think we have a stronger mentality to being able to decide what is better for human life regardless of our personal beliefs.

Even if you believe that you can't deny the legacy of their influence on the law, education, medicine. And it's not as if the Vatican has changed in the slightest bit since the peak of their influence.

billybudd

MagicSean wrote: »

Even if you believe that you can't deny the legacy of their influence on the law, education, medicine. And it's not as if the Vatican has changed in the slightest bit since the peak of their influence.

All true, except the mentality of the people have, declining numbers in mass, alterboys, christenings and even priests/nuns to name a few.

Rights for gay people including civil ceremony surely if that can be legislated then why couldnt the legislation for this have been done and dusted, am i right in thinking the CC or iona institute were successful in their lobby of this but not for gay civil rights? or was it just more trendy for people to make gay rights more important?

**Nothing at all against gay rights**

Foxhound38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ

How come it takes a US talk show to sum up exactly how I feel about this situation? I've never, ever been more embarrassed and ashamed by this country. May that poor woman forgive us our complacency - what an aweful way to die, and it's all our fault because we let it happen...

Morag

https://www.facebook.com/events/452409004796258/

Vigils tomorrow The Liberty Tree Carlow and The Town Hall Kilkenny 4pm.

And in Wexford on Friday

https://www.facebook.com/events/485537601491091/

Vigil in on Friday.

Message in a Bottle ...To remember Savita
Today at 18:00
Wexford Quay in Wexford, Ireland

mazi

gozunda wrote: »

mazi - the doctor would not necessarily have been "breaking the law" this was clarified in the Dail today. The medical Council is quite clear where treatment is required to save a womans life then intervention is allowed. This comes from the Supreme Courts clarification of the Constitution. However the fact that he may not have provided the necessary care and may be found to have been negligent could lead to him being struck off practising medicine and possibly sent to prison OR being sued by the family of the woman concerned. What is damning was his citing of "its a catholic country" rather than bone fide medical reasons.

Not necessarily is not a good answer if your life & job is at stake.The law needs to be very clear on this so let this be a precident for any future occurences.Unfortunatley as always someone always has to die a few times before people pull their heads out of the sand.Bet you if the Doctor did do what was morally right they would have been prosecuted for murder of the like.It seems to be a case of the doctor will be damned if he did and damned if he dont.

billybudd

mazi wrote: »

Not necessarily is not a good answer if your life & job is at stake.The law needs to be very clear on this so let this be a precident for any future occurences.Unfortunatley as always someone always has to die a few times before people pull their heads out of the sand.Bet you if the Doctor did do what was morally right they would have been prosecuted for murder of the like.It seems to be a case of the doctor will be damned if he did and damned if he dont.

Exactly, and not to make light of this but if you flip this situation around and the mother lived and filed a complaint, law suit and criminal prosecution against the doctor because he terminated her pregnancy while there was still a heartbeat then the argument and anger would still be the same.

MagicSean

billybudd wrote: »

All true, except the mentality of the people have, declining numbers in mass, alterboys, christenings and even priests/nuns to name a few.

Rights for gay people including civil ceremony surely if that can be legislated then why couldnt the legislation for this have been done and dusted, am i right in thinking the CC or iona institute were successful in their lobby of this but not for gay civil rights? or was it just more trendy for people to make gay rights more important?

**Nothing at all against gay rights**

Yet 84% of people still declared themselves as Catholics.

Foxhound38 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ

How come it takes a US talk show to sum up exactly how I feel about this situation? I've never, ever been more embarrassed and ashamed by this country. May that poor woman forgive us our complacency - what an aweful way to die, and it's all our fault because we let it happen...

That was painful to watch.

billybudd

MagicSean wrote: »

Yet 84% of people still declared themselves as Catholics.


Fair enough, but what is your view on the second part?

Morag

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/maternity-hospital-chief-women-and-doctors-need-protection-574284.html

Maternity hospital chief: Women and doctors need protection.

gozunda

Foxhound38 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKifAdn8HCQ

How come it takes a US talk show to sum up exactly how I feel about this situation? I've never, ever been more embarrassed and ashamed by this country. May that poor woman forgive us our complacency - what an aweful way to die, and it's all our fault because we let it happen...

Sometimes the true impact of a situation is only properly reflected through some else's view of it


For those that don't think what happened does not reflect on the country and us as its citizens - take a good long hard look...

billybudd

gozunda wrote: »

Sometimes the true impact of a situation is only properly reflected through some else's view of it


For those that don't think what happened does not reflect on the country and us as its citizens - take a good long hard look...

Again, every country has its own shameful events, it is not so important how we are viewed, it is important how we respond.

Solair

We are viewed by how we respond.

If we do nothing, we are assumed to agree with what happened.

If we do something to change it, then we might be seen in a much better light.

tomasocarthaigh

I don't want to stir up a fuss on the pro-life issue, but a lot here would know my position on that. The recent Savita case in UCH Galway brings the abortion topic to sharp focus, and on thinking of all the angles on the case, and questioning very closely my heretofor thinking on the topic in general and moral implications - on an ethics point as much as on a faith based one - I still came out pro-life.

I thought the baby should have been removed, either by section or induction, as does every pro-life body as the operation is not abortion not being aimed to kill the child, but to save the mothers life, with the child dying as consequence, as it was going to being miscarried.

The doctor, in their fanaticism, thought he was God, and cited God to deny the removal of the baby. The woman died, as did the baby, a tragic outcome for all concerned.

Youth Defence, the Pope himself (not addressing this case in particualr, but cases similar in general previosly), every Protestant pro-life blog Ive read on the issue say she should have been saved by removing the baby, as do the secular pro-life blogs.

I hope, if you dont agree with the sentiments, at least you understand where a pro-lifer is coming from when trying to square this circle.

The Shepherd, The Wolf, The Ewe and the Lamb

gozunda

mazi wrote: »

Not necessarily is not a good answer if your life & job is at stake.The law needs to be very clear on this so let this be a precident for any future occurences.Unfortunatley as always someone always has to die a few times before people pull their heads out of the sand.Bet you if the Doctor did do what was morally right they would have been prosecuted for murder of the like.It seems to be a case of the doctor will be damned if he did and damned if he dont.

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric with the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faced prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

oppenheimer1

gozunda wrote: »

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric was the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faxed prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

The medic could also have been trying badly to explain why he/she felt his/her hands were tied.

I disagree fundamentally with your attack on the medic - especially when the full facts of the case are unknown.

billybudd

gozunda wrote: »

Don't take it personally but this is not 'my answer" It is simply a statement of things currently stand. However what makes what actually happened barbaric was the consultant not even attempting to give a bone fide medical reason why the procedure could not be carried out. The reference to 'this is a Catholic Country' shows the doctor to be either a moral coward, a bigot or a murder with the life of this woman was in his hands.

Yes he may have had some right wing pro lifer come after him but with the current standing of the constitution it is highly unlikely he would have faxed prosecution. What it does show is that some medical providers lack any back bone when it come to doing what is ethically right.

Agree with partial bits of this, just one question, do you think nearly all the medical professionals coming out saying they need more clarity and legislation on this and more protection is a guise just to close shop and stick togeather? or is there confusion and fear regarding the interpretation of what the government and IMO say when it is ok to terminate?

gozunda

billybudd wrote: »

Again, every country has its own shameful events, it is not so important how we are viewed, it is important how we respond.

BB you are baiting the bottom feeders again I'm afraid.

your take on that is incorrect. It does matter because as a small country we rely heavily on the goodwill and relations with other countries, both economically and otherwise. International pressure may be just the kick up the ^rse this dank little country needs. It may be the catalyst we need for a proper response and not just the same old irish type solution we seem to come up with for everything.

billybudd

gozunda wrote: »

BB you are baiting the bottom feeders again I'm afraid.

your take on that is incorrect. It does matter because as a small country we rely heavily on the goodwill and relations with other countries, both economically and otherwise. International pressure may be just the kick up the ^rse this dank little country needs. It may be the catalyst we need for a proper response and not just the same old irish type solution we seem to come up with for everything.

Ill ignore your sneering ways.

How we respond will say alot internationaly.

As for goodwill? companies primarily invest here from overseas because of our generous tax breaks and low corporate tax, nothing to do with goodwill, financial sense.

They come here for a variety of reasons, when the scandals hit home about abuse by clergy and institutions it had no effect on why people come here.

This tragic thing that happened is rare and was not intentional in my opinion and if it opens the door to change and the loosening of draconian perceptions and laws then it will not have been in vain and hopefully no woman has to go throug this terrible thing again.