Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

otto_26

Stheno wrote: »

Or possibly according to the Medical Council guidelines I've quoted "giving due consideration to the health of the baby"

I do believe doctors here in this field are extremely cautious as a result of the ambiguous wording of the guidelines they have and the lack of clear law.

Look the simple facts are that the doctor's job is the safety of his patents it is legal for the doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother and that's what he should have done.

Medical intervention to save the life of the mother has been done thousands of times in Ireland without a problem.

My point is we should be taking about a doctor who did not do his job properly not laws because as I said it is not illegal for him to have terminated in the situation.

Seaneh

Sarky wrote: »

This kind of response is shameful.

"Well screw you with your sensible ideas and disgust at our crappy system! F*ck off and let us have a crappy system in peace!"

Attitudes like yours are the reason the X Case hasn't been legislated for in twenty years. Perhaps you could get off your arse and actually try to make the country a bit better instead of moaning all the damn time?

Oh **** off and grow up.

She basically claimed Ireland and it's people were some land of evil women oppressing misogynists who want nothing more than to kill poor sick pregnant women.

She get back on the boat and go home if she really believes that, why the **** would she stay if she actually felt that way?


And when have I moaned about the country exactly?

First way I'd make the country better if I could would be to tell all the self loating west brits (not dubs in general, west brits exist all over the island) they can go back to mother england if Ireland is really so **** and take people like herself above with them.


Less bitching and self depreciation would be a great start.

Beyond that, the voluntary work I already do is enough for me to fill me "make great the nation" quota.

Mod: banned

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

Look the simple facts are that the doctor's job is the safety of his patents it is legal for the doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother and that's what he should have done.

Medical intervention to save the life of the mother has been done thousands of times in Ireland without a problem.

My point is we should be taking about a doctor who did not do his job properly not laws because as I said it is not illegal for him to have terminated in the situation.

You still haven't pointed out the legislation that covers that that supercedes the offenses against the person act? Which clearly call out abortion as being illegal?

seenitall

Seaneh wrote: »

Oh **** off and grow up.

She basically claimed Ireland and it's people were some land of evil women oppressing misogynists who want nothing more than to kill poor sick pregnant women.

She get back on the boat and go home if she really believes that, why the **** would she stay if she actually felt that way?

Ever heard of hyperbole? That's what you used, above (basically); and the woman has a point.

otto_26

seenitall wrote: »

Again, just LOL. But have it your way, I always say denial is one of the most powerful things there is.

Again, just LOL. But have it your way, I always say denial is one of the most powerful things there is!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Go look up Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines and then tell me it's illegal.....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh and chin up you still did really well! Proud of you!!!;)

tony81

jill_valentine wrote: »

FFS.

Ireland, it's time to put your big kid pants on and deal with this once and for all. No more cowardice or can kicking or winking at ferry terminals, we cannot pretend there are no consequences to the Irish Solution we've been trying to hide behind.

What bull****! There's now an abortion clinic in belfast and any number of "family planning" advice clinics in ireland. Anyone callous enough to have an abortion doesn't need to go to too much effort to find one.

seb65

Seaneh wrote: »

I didn't say that either, I am saying that the Hospital didn't just let a woman die, and everyone on here saying they did is just spreading nonsense, without knowing the actual details of the case, nobody can make any judgements on what happened.

There are a million and one reasons why this could have went wrong and without knowing which reason that is you cannot assign blame to anyone.


This is how witch hunts start and peoples reputations and lives are ruins because of baying mobs on uninformed idiots.

no there are not a million and one reasons. Her husband is clear in his recollection of what happened - his wife in agony, asking for a termination of a baby - that was wanted - but was not going to survive, left to writhe in pain for three days, informed that Ireland was a Catholic country and they could not help her.

Her blood is on the hands of all those healthcare professionals who stood by and let her suffer. Cloaking themselves in the catholicism of their country....

PaddyORuadhan

Protest called for tomorrow about the lack of legislation on X case
Tomorrow
6pm@the Dail
https://www.facebook.com/events/306835169430369

Seaneh

seenitall wrote: »

Ever heard of hyperbole? That's what you used, above (basically); and the woman has a point.

I am perfectly aware of the hyperbole in my post, the thing is, as far as I could tell from her posts she wasn't trying to use any in her post.

Seaneh

seb65 wrote: »

no there are not a million and one reasons. Her husband is clear in his recollection of what happened - his wife in agony, asking for a termination of a baby - that was wanted - but was not going to survive, left to writhe in pain for three days, informed that Ireland was a Catholic country and they could not help her.

Her blood is on the hands of all those healthcare professionals who stood by and let her suffer. Cloaking themselves in the catholicism of their country....

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: x inifinty.

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

Again, just LOL. But have it your way, I always say denial is one of the most powerful things there is!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

Go look up Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines and then tell me it's illegal.....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh and chin up you still did really well! Proud of you!!!;)

Medical council guidelines are not law, and very clearly call out that equal consideration has to be given to the health/life of the foetus, does not countermand section 58/59

I quoted it earlier if you need to check it.

tony81 wrote: »

What bull****! There's now an abortion clinic in belfast and any number of "family planning" advice clinics in ireland. Anyone callous enough to have an abortion doesn't need to go to too much effort to find one.

So fine, go into hospital and be told, off up to Belfast with you when you are in serious ill health?

Or are you implying our family planning clinics will provide an abortion? I can assure you that is not the case.

seb65

Seaneh wrote: »

Oh **** off and grow up.

She basically claimed Ireland and it's people were some land of evil women oppressing misogynists who want nothing more than to kill poor sick pregnant women.

She get back on the boat and go home if she really believes that, why the **** would she stay if she actually felt that way?


And when have I moaned about the country exactly?

First way I'd make the country better if I could would be to tell all the self loating west brits (not dubs in general, west brits exist all over the island) they can go back to mother england if Ireland is really so **** and take people like herself above with them.


Less bitching and self depreciation would be a great start.

Beyond that, the voluntary work I already do is enough for me to fill me "make great the nation" quota.

I'm not a Brit, I'm Canadian.....of course, lots of pure bred Irish escaping to my country already.

And nope, I don't think all Irish are misogynistic. I love one of them enough to stay here with him.

otto_26

Stheno wrote: »

You still haven't pointed out the legislation that covers that that supercedes the offenses against the person act? Which clearly call out abortion as being illegal?

The 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:
21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother.

MagicSean

otto_26 wrote: »

Look the simple facts are that the doctor's job is the safety of his patents it is legal for the doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother and that's what he should have done.

Medical intervention to save the life of the mother has been done thousands of times in Ireland without a problem.

My point is we should be taking about a doctor who did not do his job properly not laws because as I said it is not illegal for him to have terminated in the situation.

It is not legal. It is constitutional. The doctors hands were tied because in two decades no government has seen fit to make it legal. Every government since the x case has this womans blood on their hands.

Seaneh

seb65 wrote: »

I'm not a Brit, I'm Canadian.....of course, lots of pure bred Irish escaping to my country already.

And nope, I don't think all Irish are misogynistic. I love one of them enough to stay here with him.

I wasn't calling you a west brit, you were one of "the people like herself above" I wish them to take with them.

Stheno

seb65 wrote: »

no there are not a million and one reasons. Her husband is clear in his recollection of what happened - his wife in agony, asking for a termination of a baby - that was wanted - but was not going to survive, left to writhe in pain for three days, informed that Ireland was a Catholic country and they could not help her.

Her blood is on the hands of all those healthcare professionals who stood by and let her suffer. Cloaking themselves in the catholicism of their country....

No let us be clear for about the tenth time in this thread.

Her blood is on the hands of the five plus governments who have failed to provide clarity to the medical profession by legislating on this issue for over 20 years.

Even Citizens information cite Medical Council guidelines and not law in proclaiming that the life of the mother can take precedence.

Those Medical Council guidelines cite equal attention to the health of the child.

I'd bet a fair wedge of cash that several of her medical team were non nationals shocked at the situation in which they found themselves.

It's the government at fault here, not the medics, not the church etc.

If you feel that strongly about it, protest, contact your tds etc.

seenitall

otto_26 wrote: »

Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:
21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother.

The above is NOT THE LAW, and is CONTRADICTED BY LAW (Law trumps Guidelines, btw). How many times will you have to be told??

Still, as long as you're proud of me!

tony81

PaddyORuadhan wrote: »

Protest called for tomorrow about the lack of legislation on X case
Tomorrow
6pm@the Dail
https://www.facebook.com/events/306835169430369

The X case? That girl had a miscarriage. She didn't even need an abortion. God works in mysterious ways.

Also I wonder where X is now. Did she have a normal life? Family? Kids? What are her views on abortion now? She's being used as a poster child for abortion and i guess the pro-choicers don't care anyway now that they have an even sadder story that they can twist and skew.

Sarky

Seaneh wrote: »

Oh **** off and grow up.

[further BAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWW ensues]

Does your voluntary work come with an official certificate or something giving you the express right to tell others to get back on the boat and f*ck off out of your country when they point out its flaws?

You're doing yourself and this country no favours with this attitude. I'd prefer to keep the folks who can get annoyed at sh*tty things happening and send those with attitudes like yours off on a boat to "off foreign".

otto_26

Stheno wrote: »

Medical council guidelines are not law, and very clearly call out that equal consideration has to be given to the health/life of the foetus, does not countermand section 58/59

But it does not make it illegal. Thousands of medical interventions to save the life of the mother have been done in Ireland without problem.

Therefore its the doctor not law we should be looking at because his job is the safety of his patient. It was not illegal for him to do his job.

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

The 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:
21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother.

MagicSean wrote: »

It is not legal. It is constitutional. The doctors hands were tied because in two decades no government has seen fit to make it legal. Every government since the x case has this womans blood on their hands.

Thank you MagicSean

Can I also point out that those guidelines include equal consideration for the health/life of the foetus as I pointed out earlier.

I suspect the doctors here didn't realise there was a risk to the life of the mother, and overly focused on the foetus, given there is no real clarity to guide them, and they tend to the conservative side.

Seaneh

Sarky wrote: »

rabble, rabble, rabble.

Sarky, That's all I read.

Bye.

Stheno

seenitall wrote: »

The above is NOT THE LAW, and is CONTRADICTED BY LAW (Law trumps Guidelines, btw). How many times will you have to be told??

Still, as long as you're proud of me!

A lot it seems

Stheno

otto_26 wrote: »

But it does not make it illegal. Thousands of medical interventions to save the life of the mother have been done in Ireland without problem.
.

And how many terminations to save the mother as you are so knowledgeable?

Intervention is one thing, terminating the life of a foetus to save a mother is another?

seb65

Stheno wrote: »

No let us be clear for about the tenth time in this thread.

Her blood is on the hands of the five plus governments who have failed to provide clarity to the medical profession by legislating on this issue for over 20 years.

Even Citizens information cite Medical Council guidelines and not law in proclaiming that the life of the mother can take precedence.

Those Medical Council guidelines cite equal attention to the health of the child.

I'd bet a fair wedge of cash that several of her medical team were non nationals shocked at the situation in which they found themselves.

It's the government at fault here, not the medics, not the church etc.

If you feel that strongly about it, protest, contact your tds etc.

And as a doctor, "you set the leg"

If these doctors used this woman as some sort of example over their displeasure at a lack of proper legislation on when they can legally terminate a pregnancy, they should not be doctors. Lord knows the HSE has no problem running to the court every time a Jehovah Witness refuses a blood transfusion, why not some court action in this case? If a fetus is dying and is not feasible and a woman is enduring a three day miscarriage, surely that is endangering her health and not treating her health equally?

Lot of silliness really. This has nothing to do with our laws on abortion, whatever one's opinion may be of them, if a pregnant woman was suffering from septicemia I doubt she'd be told "We don't do abortion, this is a catholic country" and then just manage to recount the tale to a journalist as she died. If most of the facts are as presented it's malpractice/negligence.

irishfeen

seenitall wrote: »

The above is NOT THE LAW, and is CONTRADICTED BY LAW (Law trumps Guidelines, btw). How many times will you have to be told??

Still, as long as you're proud of me!

Yes but it is the position of the Irish High Court meaning any conviction would be overturned by the High Court/European Court of Human rights?

Seaneh

seb65 wrote: »

And as a doctor, "you set the leg"

If these doctors used this woman as some sort of example over their displeasure at a lack of proper legislation on when they can legally terminate a pregnancy, they should not be doctors. Lord knows the HSE has no problem running to the court every time a Jehovah Witness refuses a blood transfusion, why not some court action in this case? If a fetus is dying and is not feasible and a woman is enduring a three day miscarriage, surely that is endangering her health and not treating her health equally?

More conjecture and nonsense.

flynnlives

tony81 wrote: »

The X case? That girl had a miscarriage. She didn't even need an abortion. God works in mysterious ways.

Also I wonder where X is now. Did she have a normal life? Family? Kids? What are her views on abortion now? She's being used as a poster child for abortion and i guess the pro-choicers don't care anyway now that they have an even sadder story that they can twist and skew.

your some sick ****

the x case girl was only 14 and she was raped by a neighbour

The girl was suicidal and planned to have an abortion. The family asked the Gardai if dna taken from the aborted foetus could be used as evidence to convict her rapist.

When they learned she was going to england the Attorney General got an injunction to stop her.

the sick **** who raped her got only 4 years.

A young womens life ruined by not only rape but a constitution heavenly influenced by the church.

otto_26

seenitall wrote: »

The above is NOT THE LAW, and is CONTRADICTED BY LAW (Law trumps Guidelines, btw). How many times will you have to be told??

Still, as long as you're proud of me!

But it's not illegal to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother. So asking me about what's written into law has nothing to do with what happened.

Also since I answered your question! please show me where it is written into law that it is illegal for a doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother... considering

The 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:
21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother.

Still, as long as you're proud of me!;)

Seaneh

irishfeen wrote: »

Yes but it is the position of the Irish High Court meaning any conviction would be overturned by the High Court/European Court of Human rights?

Which could take years, maybe even decades in court to get that far and potentially cost the people involved in any such case their livelyhoods in the process as well as every penny they might have to their names?

PaddyORuadhan

Deleted User wrote: »

Lot of silliness really. This has nothing to do with our laws on abortion, whatever one's opinion may be of them, if a pregnant woman was suffering from septicemia I doubt she'd be told "We don't do abortion, this is a catholic country" and then just manage to recount the tale to a journalist as she died. If most of the facts are as presented it's malpractice/negligence.

It was her poor husband that told the journo that detail.

The fact is that a pregnancy that was clearly going wrong that seems to have directly lead to the septecemia, that this pregnancy couldn't be terminated due to the lack of clarity in the laws on abortion

seenitall

irishfeen wrote: »

Yes but it is the position of the Irish High Court meaning any conviction would be overturned by the High Court/European Court of Human rights?

Yes, class! I'm sure that's exactly what's running through doctors' heads when presented with cases like these!

Rascasse

Seaneh wrote: »

I didn't say that either, I am saying that the Hospital didn't just let a woman die, and everyone on here saying they did is just spreading nonsense, without knowing the actual details of the case, nobody can make any judgements on what happened.

There are a million and one reasons why this could have went wrong and without knowing which reason that is you cannot assign blame to anyone.


This is how witch hunts start and peoples reputations and lives are ruins because of baying mobs on uninformed idiots.

While you say that "the Hospital didn't just let a woman die", we can't rule out that her life could have been saved by her receiving the appropriate treatment. As I mentioned in this post, there was a conference held here two months ago by a group of 140 pro-life medical staff (though the claimed “All organisers were involved in their professional capacity and were not here to represent any pro-life position,”) that agreed the "Dublin declaration".

The organiser was Eamon O’Dwyer, Professor Emeritus of Gynaecology & Obstetrics at N.U.I., Galway. While obviously now retired, he trained doctors at UCHG for how many years?

Also in attendance was Dr John Monaghan, a clinical teacher at Portiuncula Hospital, Ballinasloe (also part of NUIG)

Were any of the other 140 medical staff in attendence part of the team looking after her? And, if so, did their beliefs affect the treatment she was given. I hope the media find out.

(Oh, and Dr Eoghan de Faoite, he of Youth Defence, was also at the conference)

hotmail.com

MagicSean wrote: »

It is not legal. It is constitutional. The doctors hands were tied because in two decades no government has seen fit to make it legal. Every government since the x case has this womans blood on their hands.

No justification for saying that this is a "Catholic country". I well believe that this was said as many people still believe that this is a Catholic country. Shameful and disgusting.

Would a man have been treated the same way? No bloody way.

tolosenc

tony81 wrote: »

What bull****! There's now an abortion clinic in belfast and any number of "family planning" advice clinics in ireland. Anyone callous enough to have an abortion doesn't need to go to too much effort to find one.

OK, I'll cut a massive hole in your head and leave you in a field in the back arse of Leitrim.

Sure, anyone who needs a hospital can find one quite easily.

Do you actually believe the rubbish you spout?

PaddyORuadhan

PaddyORuadhan wrote: »

It was her poor husband that told the journo that detail.

The fact is that a pregnancy that was clearly going wrong that seems to have directly lead to the septecemia, that this pregnancy couldn't be terminated due to the lack of clarity in the laws on abortion

I still don't think I'm going to be buying this as a case of the law being a problem. I know of several cases in passing where a foetus/baby wasn't going to survive and was "delivered prematurely". There's plenty that doctors can do and I've still yet to see anything to suggest that the doctors couldn't have just been sensible in this case. Again it all sounds like either malpractice or negligence.

Stheno

seb65 wrote: »

And as a doctor, "you set the leg"

If these doctors used this woman as some sort of example over their displeasure at a lack of proper legislation on when they can legally terminate a pregnancy, they should not be doctors. Lord knows the HSE has no problem running to the court every time a Jehovah Witness refuses a blood transfusion, why not some court action in this case? If a fetus is dying and is not feasible and a woman is enduring a three day miscarriage, surely that is endangering her health and not treating her health equally?

Given the timeframe, I suspect hospital legal advice even with the most blatant advocate for abortion would have had difficulty getting it dealt with to be honest. Also the lady who died was in goodish health for half that time frame so if they followed the guidelines by the time it got serious there was not much they could have done unless they got an emergency ruling within hours on the second day.

Courts don't run on hours/days.

irishfeen wrote: »

Yes but it is the position of the Irish High Court meaning any conviction would be overturned by the High Court/European Court of Human rights?

The Irish Supreme Court and the ECHR have both ruled that it should be law to allow terminations in certain circumstances including this one, it's been ignored for years by government due to their fear of the more right wing elements of society

K-9

Its a sensitive and emotive subject at the best of times, never mind with a particular case involved.

With that in mind, less of the LOL and sarcastic replies, show a little decorum and respect.

Stheno

Deleted User wrote: »

I still don't think I'm going to be buying this as a case of the law being a problem. I know of several cases in passing where a foetus/baby wasn't going to survive and was "delivered prematurely". There's plenty that doctors can do and I've still yet to see anything to suggest that the doctors couldn't have just been sensible in this case. Again it all sounds like either malpractice or negligence.

Plenty of cases in the Irish times in the past year when they ran their abortion stories series, where couples went to the UK for an abortion as the foetus wasn't viable.

Different from this scenario early labour, 17 week old foetus, with no chance of survival, I've not come across it before.

IMO the health of the mother should have been paramount.

irishfeen

seenitall wrote: »

Yes, class! I'm sure that's exactly what's running through doctors' heads when presented with cases like these!

But it would eventually clear the doctor of any wrongdoing, why wouldn't it run through their heads if deep down they know what is the right thing to do as to their medical training.

seenitall

otto_26 wrote: »

But it's not illegal to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother. So asking me about what's written into law has nothing to do with what happened.

Also since I answered your question! please show me where it is written into law that it is illegal for a doctor to perform a medical intervention to save the life of the mother... considering

The 1992 High court decision dictate that if the mother's life is at risk an abortion is allowed without any malpractice or illegality.

Section 21 of the Medical Council guidelines state:
21.1 Abortion is illegal in Ireland except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the mother.

Still, as long as you're proud of me!;)

Already shown on-thread twice or three times, I lose track... but it means nothing to you, so I won't be engaging with you any more. Enjoy!

flynnlives

Stheno wrote: »

Given the timeframe, I suspect hospital legal advice even with the most blatant advocate for abortion would have had difficulty getting it dealt with to be honest. Also the lady who died was in goodish health for half that time frame so if they followed the guidelines by the time it got serious there was not much they could have done unless they got an emergency ruling within hours on the second day.

Courts don't run on hours/days.

they do of course.

In emergency situations courts can sit within hours.

This women was more then 3 days in hospital.

Plenty of time.

Stheno

Stheno wrote: »

The Irish Supreme Court and the ECHR have both ruled that it should be law to allow terminations in certain circumstances including this one, it's been ignored for years by government due to their fear of the more right wing elements of society

Exactly, so whatever our silly laws it would be legal. If they tried to suspend the doc who ordered it they'd have a union suing them to a European court and would back down. It all still seems like one or two people ****ed up and are trying to hide behind some legislation or rules that don't actually apply.

tolosenc

hotmail.com wrote: »

No justification for saying that this is a "Catholic country". I well believe that this was said as many people still believe that this is a Catholic country. Shameful and disgusting.

I can scarcely imagine what further horrors the Catholic church can inflict on this country. Rape and abuse of countless children, psychological abuse and shaming of women... They are a disgrace to the Christian faith. I'm a tolerant person, but any such organisation should be permanently banished from this country.

Stheno

hotmail.com wrote: »

No justification for saying that this is a "Catholic country". I well believe that this was said as many people still believe that this is a Catholic country. Shameful and disgusting.

Would a man have been treated the same way? No bloody way.

No offence, but no man would ever be in the situation where his medical treatment would be considered in term of the impact on a foetus, so that's a complete red herring.

Sorcha16

hotmail.com wrote: »

No justification for saying that this is a "Catholic country".

When latching on to that very convenient soundbite, please bear in mind the sensationalist nature of newspapers and the fact that that they were talking to a very unfortunate man in a highly emotive state.

irishfeen

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly, so whatever our silly laws it would be legal. If they tried to suspend the doc who ordered it they'd have a union suing them to a European court and would back down. It all still seems like one or two people ****ed up and are trying to hide behind some legislation or rules that don't actually apply.

Dead right, it would be initially proved illegal by silly laws but the will of the people would eventually clear the doctor through the High Court/European Court.

hotmail.com

Stheno wrote: »

No offence, but no man would ever be in the situation where his medical treatment would be considered in term of the impact on a foetus, so that's a complete red herring.

Of course, but the point is that if there was similar situation a man would not be treated the same. Did you not understand the point I was making?

Stheno

flynnlives wrote: »

they do of course.

In emergency situations courts can sit within hours.

This women was more then 3 days in hospital.

Plenty of time.

Yes but her condition only became critical almost two days into that 3 days.

Best course of action would have been for her family to initiate legal proceedings for an abortion.

The medical profession here are extremely conservative