Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

My name is URL

seb65 wrote: »

I thought it was more extensive than that. They have pulled in the Chair from outside the country, so I would say this is the "independent inquiry". There's nothing to stop them (the government?) on doing as many inquiries as they wish, but I don't really see the point in doing two. One is going to cost enough in time/money. Unfortunately, if the team finds that Galway did nothing wrong and followed proper procedure, this result will always be questioned on the basis of impartiality, even if it is true. Wouldn't it be better to just have the members completely independent in the first place?

That's not to say you're wrong though.

If the HSE are commissioning it then it isn't an independent investigation. I'm not saying that it's an ideal situation, I just don't understand peoples shock and dismay at the idea of them wanting to conduct their own investigation into what happened.

The Gardai are also investigating it afaik. And I'd be surprised if a fully independent inquiry wasn't launched too.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how many inquiries are done. The woman's chances of survival could have been greatly improved had the government legislated for the X Case any time over the last 20 years. No amount of digging is going to change that fact. All the talk about these inquiries seems more like a smokescreen anyway imo.. and is a perfect excuse for FG & Labour to sit on their hands a bit longer and do nothing to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. Doctors have been hamstrung by the inaction of the last 7 successive governments... where's the inquiry into that?!

HeyThereDeliah

jaja321 wrote: »

Unless it favours him? What does that mean?

If the investigation reveals the hospital or doctors are not to blame I don't think he will accept that outcome.
If the investigation reveals the hospital and doctors are partially to blame I don't think he will accept that either.

In his mind the doctors are fully responsible and he will want the investigation to say this.

Death and Taxes

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

If the investigation reveals the hospital or doctors are not to blame I don't think he will accept that outcome.
If the investigation reveals the hospital and doctors are partially to blame I don't think he will accept that either.

In his mind the doctors are fully responsible and he will want the investigation to say this.

On what basis do you make those outragous assumptions?

opinion guy

My name is URL wrote: »

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how many inquiries are done.

Given tax payers money will be paying for it - I think yes it does matter. Better to do one thorough and independent investigation to determine the truth than 3 of varying quality, no ?

HellFireClub

My name is URL wrote: »

If the HSE are commissioning it then it isn't an independent investigation. I'm not saying that it's an ideal situation, I just don't understand peoples shock and dismay at the idea of them wanting to conduct their own investigation into what happened.

The Gardai are also investigating it afaik. And I'd be surprised if a fully independent inquiry wasn't launched too.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how many inquiries are done. The woman's chances of survival could have been greatly improved had the government legislated for the X Case any time over the last 20 years. No amount of digging is going to change that fact. All the talk about these inquiries seems more like a smokescreen anyway imo.. and is a perfect excuse for FG & Labour to sit on their hands a bit longer and do nothing to ensure something like this doesn't happen again. Doctors have been hamstrung by the inaction of the last 7 successive governments... where's the inquiry into that?!

The X case is irrelevant, we already know that this poor woman was entitled to a termination on the basis of the facts as we currently understand them. Someone charged with her care, unlawfully deprived her of that essential medical care that she needed and that she was legally entitled to, nothing to do with the X case, nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

Please stop selfishly using the tragedy of this woman's death to usher in abortion on demand in this country.

HeyThereDeliah

WileyCoyote wrote: »

On what basis do you make those outragous assumptions?

What outrageous assumptions would they be ?

Death and Taxes

HellFireClub wrote: »

The X case is irrelevant, we already know that this poor woman was entitled to a termination on the basis of the facts as we currently understand them. Someone charged with her care, unlawfully deprived her of that essential medical care that she needed and that she was legally entitled to, nothing to do with the X case, nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

Please stop selfishly using the tragedy of this woman's death to usher in abortion on demand in this country.

Nothwithstanding that abortion on demand should be allowed for those who want it, I don't believe that anyone is using the case of the deat of this young woman, or indeed the other young woman who died in Galway last year after having to stop her chemotherapy because she was 6 weeks pregant and refused a termination, to advance the case for abortion on demand.

My name is URL

opinion guy wrote: »

Given tax payers money will be paying for it - I think yes it does matter. Better to do one thorough and independent investigation to determine the truth than 3 of varying quality, no ?

It's common practice for internal investigations to be conducted in tandem with external/independent ones. As I said, it's obviously not ideal; but that's how things are done. There are more important things to be concerned about in this case than the cost to the tax payer. If the outcome means that lives can be saved and lessons learned, then it's worth the cost.

HellFireClub wrote: »

The X case is irrelevant, we already know that this poor woman was entitled to a termination on the basis of the facts as we currently understand them. Someone charged with her care, unlawfully deprived her of that essential medical care that she needed and that she was legally entitled to, nothing to do with the X case, nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

Please stop selfishly using the tragedy of this woman's death to usher in abortion on demand in this country.

You know that for a fact do you?

Nodin

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

.......

The nationalists are manoevuring also around the legislation demand. Sophistry! The National Catholic Party (aka Sinn Fein) are intimately entwined with the zealots and their priests.

Stop talking bollocks, please. Sinn Fein was the 1st party here to support gay marriage.

HellFireClub

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Nothwithstanding that abortion on demand should be allowed for those who want it, I don't believe that anyone is using the case of the deat of this young woman, or indeed the other young woman who died in Galway last year after having to stop her chemotherapy because she was 6 weeks pregant and refused a termination, to advance the case for abortion on demand.

We had a referendum on this and twice the people of this country have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this country. We had that tested by the Supreme Court, and any medical intervention that a woman needs to save her life, while pregnant, is perfectly legal under our constitution. I don't know what part of this the pro-abortion lobby in this country have a difficulty with.

What you are asking for, simply isn't possible, which is that the constitution gets set completely aside and laws get created to unconstitutionally bring in abortion on demand in Ireland.

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

The X case is irrelevant, we already know that this poor woman was entitled to a termination on the basis of the facts as we currently understand them. Someone charged with her care, unlawfully deprived her of that essential medical care that she needed and that she was legally entitled to, nothing to do with the X case, nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

Please stop selfishly using the tragedy of this woman's death to usher in abortion on demand in this country.

Her husband and family have said they want a change in the law themselves.

And we can campaign for pro-choice using evidence of past cases.

It has not been determined her condition as it presented was covered by the X case at the time she was examined.

It has not been determined that her doctors had clear enough legislation and protection to give her an abortion.

It is only opinion.

I am tired of hearing from the anti-choice side 'You are not allowed talk about that' ....'It is or should be a free country'

Yes her family can use this case to change the law if they want to.

And yes pro-choicers can point to this case and reference it.

God knows the pro-life debate points to anything and everything.

This is relevant .

HellFireClub

My name is URL wrote: »

You know that for a fact do you?

Yip, why else would the woman have been treated in an unconstitutional manner in relation to her healthcare in an Irish hospital, with due regard to the threat to her life that her medical situation was presenting for her?

My name is URL

Shur no need for any bloody inquiry at all then. People seem to have it all worked out already. Just lock up whatever group of people we happen to hold responsible based on our uninformed suppositions.

HellFireClub

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Her husband and family have said they want a change in the law themselves.

And we can campaign for pro-choice using evidence of past cases.

It has not been determined her condition as it presented was covered by the X case at the time she was examined.

It has not been determined that her doctors had clear enough legislation and protection to give her an abortion.

It is only opinion.

I am tired of hearing from the anti-choice side 'You are not allowed talk about that' ....'It is or should be a free country'

Yes her family can use this case to change the law if they want to.

And yes pro-choicers can point to this case and reference it.

God knows the pro-life debate points to anything and everything.

This is relevant .

Nice attempt there to put me into your little "anti-choice" box. I believe that a woman should never die over complications in a pregnancy, I see the word "abortion" as meaning only one thing, which is the deliberate decision to end the life of an unborn child for any reason or no reason at all. I do not see an "abortion" as being something that is required to save the life of a mother.

Sadly the pro-abortion lobby in this country are so cunning, and so driven in their drive to force in abortion on demand in this country, that they deliberately refuse to see the distinction between the two very very different scenarios through which the life of an unborn child could be terminated, one being a necessary medical intervention to save the life of the mother, the other being a decision to terminate a perfectly healthy pregnancy being carried by a perfectly healthy mother.

Death and Taxes

HellFireClub wrote: »

Nice attempt there to put me into your little "anti-choice" box. I believe that a woman should never die over complications in a pregnancy, I see the word "abortion" as meaning only one thing, which is the deliberate decision to end the life of an unborn child for any reason or no reason at all. I do not see an "abortion" as being something that is required to save the life of a mother.

Sadly the pro-abortion lobby in this country are so cunning, and so driven in their drive to force in abortion on demand in this country, that they deliberately refuse to see the distinction between the two very very different scenarios through which the life of an unborn child could be terminated, one being a necessary medical intervention to save the life of the mother, the other being a decision to terminate a perfectly healthy pregnancy being carried by a perfectly healthy
mother.force an unwilling woman to go through pregnancy childbirth against her will,in order to fulfill the smallminded and blinkered beliefs of the few.

Post fixed!

Death and Taxes

HellFireClub wrote: »

We had a referendum on this and twice the people of this country have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this country. We had that tested by the Supreme Court, and any medical intervention that a woman needs to save her life, while pregnant, is perfectly legal under our constitution. I don't know what part of this the pro-abortion lobby in this country have a difficulty with.

What you are asking for, simply isn't possible, which is that the constitution gets set completely aside and laws get created to unconstitutionally bring in abortion on demand in Ireland.

Actually the last attempt at an anti choice amendment, which would have totally outlawed abortion was easily defeated, the people would not vote for a ban on abortion.
The anti woman anti choice taliban have had their day, every opinion poll shows what everyone already knows, the people of this country want the X case decision and the ABC cases desicion fully legislated for!

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

Shur no need for any bloody inquiry at all then. People seem to have it all worked out already. Just lock up whatever group of people we happen to hold responsible based on our uninformed suppositions.

Seems to be some legal experts on as well that know the X case covers this.

Death and Taxes

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

What outrageous assumptions would they be ?

These ones:
If the investigation reveals the hospital or doctors are not to blame I don't think he will accept that outcome.
If the investigation reveals the hospital and doctors are partially to blame I don't think he will accept that either.

In his mind the doctors are fully responsible and he will want the investigation to say this.
All that the man is asking for is an independent sworn inquirey into the death of his wife.
Bearing in mind he is claiming that she died because he was told that the law would not allow the necessary medical intervention that his wife requested, who could blame him?

Knasher

HellFireClub wrote: »

We had a referendum on this and twice the people of this country have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this country.

AFAIK that is incorrect. We have had a referendum on this issue five times, first in 1983, when it was voted to add language outlawing abortion to the constitution. Two affirming the right to information and to travel and two which tried to remove provisions for women who are suicidal and were rejected.

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

We had a referendum on this and twice the people of this country have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this country. We had that tested by the Supreme Court, and any medical intervention that a woman needs to save her life, while pregnant, is perfectly legal under our constitution. I don't know what part of this the pro-abortion lobby in this country have a difficulty with.

What you are asking for, simply isn't possible, which is that the constitution gets set completely aside and laws get created to unconstitutionally bring in abortion on demand in Ireland.

Not true...your getting it backwards
Once the Irish people stated they wanted a complete ban on abortion 1983
Once the Irish people stated that they not want a complete ban on abortion...in certain cases as in suicide in 1992

Them when asked again through ref if they wanted the law restricted they said no

They were asked once again to tighten the law to exclude suicide in 2002 and again they said no

Infact in recent years polls have consistently said the majority of Irish people support a woman's choice up to twelve weeks .

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-should-it-be-legal-to-have-an-abortion-in-ireland-348632-Feb2012/

A RED C poll by the Irish EXAMINER found in 2010 that 60% of Irish people supported a woman's right to choose.

In 2004 the rape pregnancy crisis centre comissioned a survey that said the majority of Irish people supported a woman's right to choose.


And before you shout poll bias....here was a pol by a pro-life campaign.
And a January 2010 opinion|poll conducted by Millward Brown Landsdown for the Pro Life Campaign found 70% of people questioned favored constitutional protection for the unborn.

The polls show the majority of Irish people support it ...and all we are asking for is a referendum....both sides want a referendum....both sides ...from what has been said..

HellFireClub

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Post fixed!

Nah it doesn't need fixing, thank you. If you don't want to have children, then use contraception. As I already said, which you refuse to accept, is that abortion on demand has already been rejected not once, but twice by the people of this country. The people have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this state, as a means of retrospectively fixing a situation for people who in the majority of cases, are too scabby or stupid to take proper responsibility for their own sexual behaviour and use contraception.

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

We had a referendum on this and twice the people of this country have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this country. We had that tested by the Supreme Court, and any medical intervention that a woman needs to save her life, while pregnant, is perfectly legal under our constitution. I don't know what part of this the pro-abortion lobby in this country have a difficulty with.

What you are asking for, simply isn't possible, which is that the constitution gets set completely aside and laws get created to unconstitutionally bring in abortion on demand in Ireland.

Of course the Irish people want to be asked again see above post



And of course it can only be decided by ref

The Pro-choice side have been asking for a ref....and i think the anti-choice side want it too

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

Nah it doesn't need fixing, thank you. If you don't want to have children, then use contraception. As I already said, which you refuse to accept, is that abortion on demand has already been rejected not once, but twice by the people of this country. The people have stated that they do not want abortion on demand in this state, as a means of retrospectively fixing a situation for people who in the majority of cases, are too scabby or stupid to take proper responsibility for their own sexual behaviour and use contraception.

So, what about rape victims? Were they just being too stupid and scabby to take proper responsibility for their own sexual behaviour?

HellFireClub

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Actually the last attempt at an anti choice amendment, which would have totally outlawed abortion was easily defeated, the people would not vote for a ban on abortion.
The anti woman anti choice taliban have had their day, every opinion poll shows what everyone already knows, the people of this country want the X case decision and the ABC cases desicion fully legislated for!

More pro-abortion lies... For your clarification:

(1) I'm pro women's health, I'm also pro being responsible for your actions as an adult, if you don't want to get pregnant as an adult, then use contraception.

(2) I'm not anti-choice, I'm anti-abortion on demand for irresponsible people who simply refuse to take responsibility for their own sexual actions.

(3) I'm also not a member of the Taliban.

poeticseraphim

And it is more than abortion.....

Sheila Hodgers a woman denied cancer treatment to save her life to protect her fetus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Hodgers

She gave birth in extreme agony...the baby died hours later....

Michelle Harte



A woman who is terminally ill has claimed she was forced to travel to Britain for an abortion earlier this year.

She was advised by her doctors to terminate her pregnancy because of the risks to her health. However, an ethics forum at Cork University Hospital decided against sanctioning an abortion for her in Ireland.

Michelle Harte of Co. Wexford said that doctors at the hospital where she was being treated for cancer had advised her to terminate her pregnancy because of the risks to her health.

However, the ethics forum went against the medical advice on the basis that Michelle Harte of Co Wexford’s life was not under immediate threat[/QUOTE]


so the Irish people want this do they????

However, the ethics forum went against the medical advice on the basis that Michelle Harte of Co Wexford’s life was not under immediate threat

Oh wait it is ok she is just terminally ill..she is dying ...just not immediately.....

Disgusting!

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

More pro-abortion lies... For your clarification:

(1) I'm pro women's health, I'm also pro being responsible for your actions as an adult, if you don't want to get pregnant as an adult, then use contraception.

Can you point me in the direction of the 100% effective contraception?

old hippy

HellFireClub wrote: »

More pro-abortion lies... For your clarification:

(1) I'm pro women's health, I'm also pro being responsible for your actions as an adult, if you don't want to get pregnant as an adult, then use contraception.

(2) I'm not anti-choice, I'm anti-abortion on demand for irresponsible people who simply refuse to take responsibility for their own sexual actions.

(3) I'm also not a member of the Taliban.

What is this mythic abortion on demand you mentioned?

Abortion is taking responsibility. Unfortunately some of us aren't adult enough to see that exporting our problems to the UK is not taking responsibility.

HellFireClub

kunst nugget wrote: »

So, what about rape victims? Were they just being too stupid and scabby to take proper responsibility for their own sexual behaviour?

I fully agree that an abortion should be a choice that is allowed in such a case. But what I don't agree with, is that we end up with abortion on demand in Ireland, contrary to the stated will of the people, which the pro-abortion lobby simply cannot accept.

The 6,000 odd Irish women who are traveling to the UK every year to procure an abortion, are not all victims of horrific rape now, are they?

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

More pro-abortion lies... For your clarification:

(1) I'm pro women's health, I'm also pro being responsible for your actions as an adult, if you don't want to get pregnant as an adult, then use contraception.

(2) I'm not anti-choice, I'm anti-abortion on demand for irresponsible people who simply refuse to take responsibility for their own sexual actions.

(3) I'm also not a member of the Taliban.

You are not pro women's health...


You are anti-choice...You are not pro-life



If you say you are not a member of the taliban I believe you.

HeyThereDeliah

WileyCoyote wrote: »

These ones:
If the investigation reveals the hospital or doctors are not to blame I don't think he will accept that outcome.
If the investigation reveals the hospital and doctors are partially to blame I don't think he will accept that either.

In his mind the doctors are fully responsible and he will want the investigation to say this.
All that the man is asking for is an independent sworn inquirey into the death of his wife.
Bearing in mind he is claiming that she died because he was told that the law would not allow the necessary medical intervention that his wife requested, who could blame him?

He feels a termination would have saved her, we don't if that is true, if the enquiry reveals a termination would not have saved her he or her family might not accept this.

I know he wants answers and I think we all do but will we accept what we are told? How many investigations will be needed.

I don't think doctors from galway hospital should be investigating this but on the other hand are we saying they could lie and cover up what ever happened ?

Knasher

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

I don't think doctors from galway hospital should be investigating this but on the other hand are we saying they could lie and cover up what ever happened ?

Just FYI, now they aren't

THREE PEOPLE FROM Galway University Hospital have been removed from the team investigating the death of Savita Halappanavar.

http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-investigation-team-682152-Nov2012/

emo72

God, this thread is horrible to read. In 20 years time we will look back at this and think we were crazy. Abortion will be legal, soon I hope.

It's like looking back 20years from now and thinking why the hell were condoms illegal?

This thread sucks.

kunst nugget

HellFireClub wrote: »

I fully agree that an abortion should be a choice that is allowed in such a case. But what I don't agree with, is that we end up with abortion on demand in Ireland, contrary to the stated will of the people, which the pro-abortion lobby simply cannot accept.

The 6,000 odd Irish women who are traveling to the UK every year to procure an abortion, are not all victims of horrific rape now, are they?

No, not all. Some are having the terminations on medical grounds they can't have here and some are having abortions because the contraceptive methods they used failed. How many of them are going over because they want to have an abortion for the laugh?

HellFireClub

poeticseraphim wrote: »

You are not pro women's health...


You are anti-choice...You are not pro-life



If you say you are not a member of the taliban I believe you.

As I already clarified, but you're too deeply indoctrinated into a pro-abortion mentality to hear what I am actually saying, I believe any medical intervention that is necessary to save a mothers life is already legal, it should have been provided to the woman who is the subject of this discussion, the fact that it wasn't, I think, was a serious breach of that woman's constitutional rights. How is that being against women's health?

As regards being anti-choice, yes I am, I think if you get pregnant, then have the courage to stand by the decision that you made to risk getting pregnant. Cutting unborn children out of wombs, because that reality cannot be digested by a mother, to me is simply a step too far. Why on earth would you want to provide for the horrific spectacle that that is?

It devalues life and reduces us as a country to butchers.

Would I want my parents to have had that option available to me if they happened to be poor and decided that I wouldn't have an opportunity to live, post conception?!? NO! Would any person on their high and mighty pro-abortion horse on the thread here wish they had been aborted at 12 or 14 weeks because they might have been some sort of an inconvenience?!?

mapaco

well said emo72-i'm sure hes been referenced before but dr peter boylan summed it up when he said its time for Ireland to grow up.

poeticseraphim

By the way i wanted to ask this.

I was told this today....

Years ago Holles street hospital when it was run by nuns had a policy that life or death cases of cases of risk to the mother it favoured the child always even if this knowingly meant causing the death of the mother. They would pro-long pregnancy at risk to the mother. The COMBE had a different policy in life or death situations it favored the mother and if possibly would try to save the child but never at risk to the mother.

I posted this in the ladies lounge.

And some posters had confirmed that they were told this by their mothers...

One said the combe and the Rotunda had a policy that favored the mother...but the 1983 abortion act had to change this preference for the mother in split decisions legally


I wondered did anyone else hear anything about this??

seenitall

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

I don't think doctors from galway hospital should be investigating this but on the other hand are we saying they could lie and cover up what ever happened ?

Yes, we are.

I usually enjoy your posts very much and think they have great comedic value, HTD, but there are threads and issues that, as a matter of sensitivity, warrant the relinquishing of your usual weird, lateral logic and casting of outrageous, off-hand assumptions left, right and centre. Especially any such assumptions about this particular man right now.

If you can't see that... well, I will say one thing: I'm not surprised.

poeticseraphim

Knasher wrote: »

Just FYI, now they aren't

http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-investigation-team-682152-Nov2012/

Great ..I am pleased to hear it.

Death and Taxes

HellFireClub wrote: »

I fully agree that an abortion should be a choice that is allowed in such a case. But what I don't agree with, is that we end up with abortion on demand in Ireland, contrary to the stated will of the people, which the pro-abortion lobby simply cannot accept.

The 6,000 odd Irish women who are traveling to the UK every year to procure an abortion, are not all victims of horrific rape now, are they?

Eh, not the case, the stated will of the people was to refuse a blanket ban on abortion, say yes to info, and yes to travel, nobody has ever asked the people if they want abortion introduced as in other civillised countries.

HellFireClub

kunst nugget wrote: »

No, not all. Some are having the terminations on medical grounds they can't have here and some are having abortions because the contraceptive methods they used failed. How many of them are going over because they want to have an abortion for the laugh?

Well the way I was brought up, was to take responsibility for your actions. This avoidance of responsibility, and then this attempting to retrospectively deal with our avoidance of responsibility, is something that seems to run through our society. Providing for abortion on demand is just another accommodation of that casual avoidance of responsibility for our own actions, that so many people seem to want to have available for them in this country.

One thing I've noticed on this thread, is that nobody seems to have any consideration whatsoever as to how a potential father may feel when it comes to a girl deciding to go for an abortion.

HeyThereDeliah

seenitall wrote: »

Yes, we are.

I usually enjoy your posts very much and think they have great comedic value, HTD, but there are threads and issues that, as a matter of sensitivity, warrant the relinquishing of your usual weird, lateral logic and casting of outrageous, off-hand assumptions left, right and centre. Especially any such assumptions about this particular man right now.

If you can't see that... well, I will say one thing: I'm not surprised.

I dunno if I should be outraged or not, I will think about it and get back to you. PS the smiley does not make it ok btw. Just saying like.


Are we all so untrusting that we would assume there are no decent honourable doctors who want to reveal how this lady died?

up for anything

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well the way I was brought up, was to take responsibility for your actions. This avoidance of responsibility, and then this attempting to retrospectively deal with our avoidance of responsibility, is something that seems to run through our society. Providing for abortion on demand is just another accommodation of that casual avoidance of responsibility for our own actions, that so many people seem to want to have available for them in this country.

One thing I've noticed on this thread, is that nobody seems to have any consideration whatsoever as to how a potential father may feel when it comes to a girl deciding to go for an abortion.

Maybe the potential father should have tied a knot in it.

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

Would I want my parents to have had that option available to me if they happened to be poor and decided that I wouldn't have an opportunity to live, post conception?!? NO! Would any person on their high and mighty pro-abortion horse on the thread here wish they had been aborted at 12 or 14 weeks because they might have been some sort of an inconvenience?!?

Yes me....


I would not want my mother to suffer that.....not if she did not choose.

I would have wanted my mother to have the option to have an abortion during her pregnancy with me if she chose.

I am not comfortable with my mother being forced to go through pregnancy.

I would not want it forced on her. I would not want to be born against her will. I would not be willing to do that.


And no I would not be happy to be born from a woman if it was against her will....

Ask a child of a rape victim how they feel about it...some are pro choice and some are pro-life.


It is a personnal choice


I support women who choose to risk their lives or even give their lives to carry a child to term and give birth....that is their choice.


I support pro-choice abortion up to 12 weeks .....and when there is medical necessity after.....

But i respect it is personal

seenitall

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

I dunno if I should be outraged or not, I will think about it and get back to you. PS the smiley does not make it ok btw. Just saying like.


Are we all so untrusting that we would assume there are no decent honourable doctors who want to reveal how this lady died?

Trust has nothing to do with it. Life experience shows that it is very much part of the human nature to close ranks and protect the close and the familiar, not least for own benefit. To say nothing of the usual subjective workings of the human brain.

Therefore the decent honourable doctors are best sourced from far away in cases like these.

Sorry about the smileys. Will the do instead?

Nodin

HellFireClub wrote: »

......
One thing I've noticed on this thread, is that nobody seems to have any consideration whatsoever as to how a potential father may feel when it comes to a girl deciding to go for an abortion.

...which you throw in as an objection to abortion, but would drop like a hot rock if it turned out that most potential fathers would support an abortion, or support whatever the woman wanted.

poeticseraphim

HellFireClub wrote: »

As I already clarified, but you're too deeply indoctrinated into a pro-abortion mentality to hear what I am actually saying, I believe any medical intervention that is necessary to save a mothers life is already legal, it should have been provided to the woman who is the subject of this discussion, the fact that it wasn't, I think, was a serious breach of that woman's constitutional rights. How is that being against women's health?

As regards being anti-choice, yes I am, I think if you get pregnant, then have the courage to stand by the decision that you made to risk getting pregnant. Cutting unborn children out of wombs, because that reality cannot be digested by a mother, to me is simply a step too far. Why on earth would you want to provide for the horrific spectacle that that is?

It devalues life and reduces us as a country to butchers.

Would I want my parents to have had that option available to me if they happened to be poor and decided that I wouldn't have an opportunity to live, post conception?!? NO! Would any person on their high and mighty pro-abortion horse on the thread here wish they had been aborted at 12 or 14 weeks because they might have been some sort of an inconvenience?!?

By the way i am not pro-abortion....many women choose to put themselves at risk....

It is a personnal choice....

Who can say

poeticseraphim

Nodin wrote: »

...which you throw in as an objection to abortion, but would drop like a hot rock if it turned out that most potential fathers would support an abortion, or support whatever the woman wanted.

I know of many cases where the man wanted an abortion...and the woman did not...

And of cases where the man had no opinion...

HeyThereDeliah

seenitall wrote: »

Trust has nothing to do with it. Life experience shows that it is very much part of the human nature to close ranks and protect the close and the familiar, not least for own benefit. To say nothing of the usual subjective workings of the human brain.

Therefore the decent honourable doctors are best sourced from far away in cases like these.

Sorry about the smileys. Will the do instead?

I know it's human nature to protect those close to us but for me that would not include work colleagues, I would not lie to protect anyone and I would hope there are some doctors who are compassionate and think of the patient before their friends jobs or reputation.

Rodin

This has morphed into one of the biggest political footballs we've seen.

rainbow kirby

emo72 wrote: »

God, this thread is horrible to read. In 20 years time we will look back at this and think we were crazy. Abortion will be legal, soon I hope.

It's like looking back 20years from now and thinking why the hell were condoms illegal?

This thread sucks.

This country sucks