Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Annabella1

There is no precedent in this country that a public enquiry can produce a speedy and clear outcome and will only make lawyers rich.

I am sure that the Hospital team already know exactly what went wrong in this case and it needs to proceed asap with/without the cooperation of the family.

HeyThereDeliah

StudentDad wrote: »

Good luck with that. This is why it needs to be decided independently of the HSE. That way there can be no inference of self interest.

SD

Who do you think should lead the investigation? How should it be carried out?

I have heard some people saying An Garda Siochana should investigate it, it's a sudden death so they will be involved anyway but we still need medical professionals involved.

StudentDad

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

Who do you think should lead the investigation? How should it be carried out?

I have heard some people saying An Garda Siochana should investigate it, it's a sudden death so they will be involved anyway but we still need medical professionals involved.

High Court Judge with a wide remit and authority could chair, with the guards and medical experts independent of the HSE. I'm not a legal expert, but the inquiry has to be impartial, transparent and free from the influence of interest groups.

SD

Park Royal

Is it true this poor lady RIP was a qualified dentist?....

opinion guy

Park Royal wrote: »

Is it true this poor lady RIP was a qualified dentist?....

Yes.

Is that relevant somehow ?

Park Royal

opinion guy wrote: »

Yes.

Is that relevant somehow ?

I guess everybodys different....if a dentist meets something they see is a

problem with a client , something they cant deal with, what do they do about

it.....?..do they seek help from a specialist ......?....and refer the client to a

specialist.....?.

JP Liz V1

Has her exact cause of death been established yet?

HeyThereDeliah

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Has her exact cause of death been established yet?

What? The enquiry has yet to start, until that happens we will never know the cause of her death.

opinion guy

Park Royal wrote: »

I guess everybodys different....if a dentist meets something they see is a

problem with a client , something they cant deal with, what do they do about

it.....?..do they seek help from a specialist ......?....and refer the client to a

specialist.....?.

I've no idea what you are trying to say

Park Royal

"Prof Arulkumaran said he hoped to have a meeting with Mr Halappanavar to persuade him to change his mind about talking to investigators.

He says Mr Halappanavar's testimony on his wife's care would be central to identifying problems. But the grieving husband says that only a full, sworn public inquiry would be acceptable to her family.

His stand came a week after it emerged that Savita (31) died from septicaemia after suffering a miscarriage and being refused a termination"

above is an abstract from the Indo.....

Savita was a professional lady......her husband says she was refused a termination........ several times........?

at what stage should a couple say I need additional specialist help .....if your wife is having difficulties...and the doctors in front of you are not giving you what you want....?...

if this tragedy can befall a professional lady, what hope have non professionals!.

bbam

asherbassad wrote: »

Listen to this crap....Christ Almighty.

Can we have a bit of clarity here. Here you go dragging all kinds of tangential rubbish into the issue. "An insult to Irish health professionals" .. so now you try to make this a national pride thing and sway people with this emotional blackmail mumbo-jumbo. And you now speak for ALL IRISH health professionals, do you? It isn't an insult to the many that I know. And then you have the audacity to bleat on about cost and precedent.

I half expected you to trot out the "no wonder da country's rooooned" horseshit

Only an idiot would think that the setting of a precedent isn't important. As is the potential related costs.
Implying that Irish health professionals are not suitable to sit on an inquiry is an insult to their integrity.

No doubt this poor man deserves answers but he doesn't get to pull all the strings along the way. He had some input, it's been acted on. Now it's time for him to dig in and support the investigation.

I'm not talking Mumbo-jumbo, just hard cold facts and my opinion. I've seen results first hand from HSE reviews into patient death before where people are demoted and grades cut so I know full well it is capable of holding proper investigations.

opinion guy

Park Royal wrote: »

"Prof Arulkumaran said he hoped to have a meeting with Mr Halappanavar to persuade him to change his mind about talking to investigators.

He says Mr Halappanavar's testimony on his wife's care would be central to identifying problems. But the grieving husband says that only a full, sworn public inquiry would be acceptable to her family.

His stand came a week after it emerged that Savita (31) died from septicaemia after suffering a miscarriage and being refused a termination"

above is an abstract from the Indo.....

Savita was a professional lady......her husband says she was refused a termination........ several times........?

at what stage should a couple say I need additional specialist help .....if your wife is having difficulties...and the doctors in front of you are not giving you what you want....?...

if this tragedy can befall a professional lady, what hope have non professionals!.

I think you are making some false assumptions.

She was in the university teaching hospital. Her consultant was an obstetrician or gynaecologists - the right type of specialist. They probably had input from microbiologist etc during her treatment - more specialists.
This isn't about access to specialists - its about whether not the appropriate treatment was applied or not and whether or not there is an institutional or personal bias involved. Its also about the law. In essence its about the system and whether the system needs fixing.

Its also not about her professional status or otherwise - I don't think that matters. I think her husbands education and her families medical knowledge matter now - because they know what should have happened. I don't think her education mattered at the time. Generally dentists won't know much about obstetrics (opposite ends of the body )

asherbassad

bbam wrote: »

Only an idiot would think that the setting of a precedent isn't important. As is the potential related costs.
Implying that Irish health professionals are not suitable to sit on an inquiry is an insult to their integrity.

No doubt this poor man deserves answers but he doesn't get to pull all the strings along the way. He had some input, it's been acted on. Now it's time for him to dig in and support the investigation.

I'm not talking Mumbo-jumbo, just hard cold facts and my opinion. I've seen results first hand from HSE reviews into patient death before where people are demoted and grades cut so I know full well it is capable of holding proper investigations.

FFS it isn't setting a precedent. There have NEVER been independent enquiries in the past??
I'll have some of what you're smoking.

asherbassad

bbam wrote: »

We have to remember folks it's not as smile as she should have been given a termination to save her life.
I agree a termination seems to have been obvious here. But be clear that it would have been no guarantee that she would have been saved.

This needs to be about concluding if the appropriate patient care was given or not, some seem to think its about finding out who we find guilty of denying the termination. There are so many more factors in this case which rightly haven't been made public so far.

A full public enquiry could last years and cost tens of millions, it will open up the notion of public enquiry for every unexpected death in hospitals and the cold facts are that we don't need it and can't afford it.

The government need to grow some balls, push on with the enquiry, let the family co operate or not. They've been given their input And it has been taken on board where practical.

And all this rationale from someone who thinks street violence should be punished by the perpetrator being locked in a dungeon and tortured with electricity every few minute for a month.

bbam

asherbassad wrote: »

And all this rationale from someone who thinks street violence should be punished by the perpetrator being locked in a dungeon and tortured with electricity every few minute for a month.

Shock horror !! I have a different opinion on a different topic :eek:


Didn't You recommended someone to have a psychiatric evaluation for making juice up water first... Didn't you tell them they were " ****ed in the head for pouring cordial on top of the water"

Enough off topic rambling so.

Death and Taxes

Great to see President Higgin's rowing into the debate by asking for an inquiry that meets the needs not only of the state but also of the family. No doubt Kenny,Reilly,and Gilmore will arrogantly dismiss the President in the same way they have dismissed and attempted to smear Praveen.

HeyThereDeliah

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Great to see President Higgin's rowing into the debate by asking for an inquiry that meets the needs not only of the state but also of the family. No doubt Kenny,Reilly,and Gilmore will arrogantly dismiss the President in the same way they have dismissed and attempted to smear Praveen.

How have the dismissed and smeared Praveen?

I see three new people have been appointed to the enquiry team.
Watching the solicitor on the news saying they will go to court to stop the HSE accessing the medical records is not helping anyone.

amc1977

asherbassad wrote: »

I've been thinking about the whole Savita tragedy....and something just doesn't sit right.

Something else has happened here that isn't coming to light. I know many nurses and doctors and they have a similar doubt and sense of trepidation.

A woman is dead. A man is widowed. These are facts.
The widower refuses to have anything to do with a HSE inquiry. Why?

What was said and what was done during this episode? People state that the law is unclear.

From what I can gather, the law is very clear in this situation. Why wasn't it adhered to?

To those who would scream "Conspiracy Theorist" I would say "Back the fcuk off for a minute"

After the dust settles from marches and editorials and phone-in shows and the usual knee-jerk pantomime that accompanies such things.

Did they wait too long to give her antibiotic dosage to retard infection? Her cervix was dilated for a dangerous length of time during this disaster. Did they panic? She wasn't administered anti-biotics until 3 FULL days had passed after her admission.

This is in no way...NO WAY a judgement call based on socio-politico-religious grounds.

I agree that something is not sitting right in this case as well. The hospital in there version of timeline of events the only information on this case we have from them claim that she was giving antibiotics on the Monday while the husband in his version claims " Again on Tuesday morning, the ward rounds and the same discussion. The consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita [a Hindu] said: ‘I am neither Irish nor Catholic’ but they said there was nothing they could do.

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics. Dealing with an infection when the antibiotics were actually given is very important.

From the time line of events from the hospital they state the following:
Tuesday 23 October:
Patient transferred to theatre.
Spontaneous miscarriage occurs.

Wednesday 24 October:
Post-theatre patient is transferred to Intensive Care Unit.

They must have done something here in theatre, could they have cleaned out the contents of the womb here rather than the wednesday as the husband claimed. I guess there will always be questions until the inquiry takes place and the true facts are established.

Death and Taxes

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

How have the dismissed and smeared Praveen?

I see three new people have been appointed to the enquiry team.
Watching the solicitor on the news saying they will go to court to stop the HSE accessing the medical records is not helping anyone.

At the weekend Reilly indicated he had information (that he couldnt disclose) that was at odds with Praveens version of events. Today furher Inda inferred Praveen was little less than a guillible tool of sharp lawyers.
Three more members of the whitewash commitee niether makes it independent nor public.

suicide_circus

I am in complete sympathy with the family.

At the same time, i think it is worth noting, despite the self deprecating post colonial irishness going on, our maternity hospitals are far safe than those in lets say London and if a woman goes through pregnancy in India, she is some 80 times more likely to die than in Ireland.

Death and Taxes

suicide_circus wrote: »

I am in complete sympathy with the family.

At the same time, i think it is worth noting, despite the self deprecating post colonial irishness going on, our maternity hospitals are far safe than those in lets say London and if a woman goes through pregnancy in India, she is some 80 times more likely to die than in Ireland.

There is a world of difference between dying and being left to die!

suicide_circus

WileyCoyote wrote: »

There is a world of difference between dying and being left to die!

We have no evidence of that except the word of a grief stricken husband who can hardly be expected to be impartial.

opinion guy

suicide_circus wrote: »

We have no evidence of that except the word of a grief stricken husband who can hardly be expected to be impartial.

Have you seen his video interview ? He seems fairly coherent and logical to me.
Half way down this page:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1121/breaking13.html

Death and Taxes

suicide_circus wrote: »

We have no evidence of that except the word of a grief stricken husband who can hardly be expected to be impartial.

I have no reason to question his honesty in this matter, but how easy it is to dismiss the inconvient truth as the "word of a grief stricken husband", of course grief stricken spouses are prone to lying, are they?

HeyThereDeliah

WileyCoyote wrote: »

At the weekend Reilly indicated he had information (that he couldnt disclose) that was at odds with Praveens version of events. Today furher Inda inferred Praveen was little less than a guillible tool of sharp lawyers.
Three more members of the whitewash commitee niether makes it independent nor public.

I did not hear Reilly so cannot comment.

I did not take what Enda Kenny said in the same way you did.

What will make you happy? Are these new appointments not good enough to make it an independent enquiry?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1121/breaking13.html

bbam

WileyCoyote wrote: »

There is a world of difference between dying and being left to die!

Or being so far gone by the time she enters hospital that nothing could have been done for her... Lets keep all potential outcomes on the table until we know the facts..

Death and Taxes

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

I did not hear Reilly so cannot comment.

I did not take what Enda Kenny said in the same way you did.

What will make you happy? Are these new appointments not good enough to make it an independent enquiry?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1121/breaking13.html

Which part of the HSE carrying out an" In Camera" inquiry into itself cannot be deemed as independent do you not get?
The three new appointments concern me especially since one of them is from the Mater, a hospital whose Roman Catholic ethos, as stated by the hospital itself, is frightening.
Hopefully the intervention of president Higgins will shame the Inda and Eamon into accepting that an INDEPENDENT and public inquiry is needed.

Death and Taxes

bbam wrote: »

Or being so far gone by the time she enters hospital that nothing could have been done for her... Lets keep all potential outcomes on the table until we know the facts..

Not according to the only witness who has gone public!

My name is URL

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The three new appointments concern me especially since one of them is from the Mater, a hospital whose Roman Catholic ethos, as stated by the hospital itself, is frightening.

Why? He's not acting on behalf of the hospital or its ethos. He's acting as a expert with vast knowledge and experience in the field of Intensive Care Medicine.

HeyThereDeliah

My name is URL wrote: »

Why? He's not acting on behalf of the hospital or its ethos. He's acting as a expert with vast knowledge and experience in the field of Intensive Care Medicine.

It appears there will be criticism of everyone that is appointed, I can't understand why these professionals cannot be judged on their profession rather than where they work.

I think some people will only be happy if no irish doctor is on the panel or if it suits their own agenda.

It's turned into a circus at this stage and the husband and his solicitor are not helping matters.

Nodin

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

It appears there will be criticism of everyone that is appointed, I can't understand why these professionals cannot be judged on their profession rather than where they work.

I think some people will only be happy if no irish doctor is on the panel or if it suits their own agenda.

It's turned into a circus at this stage and the husband and his solicitor are not helping matters.

...you've no agenda at all, at all though.

HeyThereDeliah

Nodin wrote: »

...you've no agenda at all, at all though.

No I don't have any agenda except to find out how she died and if doctors could have saved her. If a termination would have saved her then it should have been provided without question.

MagicSean

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Not according to the only witness who has gone public!

The only person who could legally go public you mean?

skinny90

Is it just me or is it sick that the husband is on prime time being interviewed about the whole situation so soon?

ArmaniJeanss

skinny90 wrote: »

Is it just me or is it sick that the husband is on prime time being interviewed about the whole situation so soon?

Its been a month since she died, I don't see the problem with him wanting to speak out and get to the truth whilst the story is fresh.
So to answer, its probably just you.

HeyThereDeliah

skinny90 wrote: »

Is it just me or is it sick that the husband is on prime time being interviewed about the whole situation so soon?

It's just you. This way at least we are hearing from him and not second hand through newspapers.

clappyhappy

That was very difficult to watch, the poor man, my heart goes out to him. Well done to him on going public, as he said two weeks and nothing, he deserves answers. RIP Savita.

Wompa1

skinny90 wrote: »

Is it just me or is it sick that the husband is on prime time being interviewed about the whole situation so soon?

it's just you. He is rightly outraged and wants to be heard.

suicide_circus

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I have no reason to question his honesty in this matter, but how easy it is to dismiss the inconvient truth as the "word of a grief stricken husband", of course grief stricken spouses are prone to lying, are they?

i never questioned his honesty. I am implying that after suffering such a horrific loss, many people would struggle to recall every detail of the preceeding few days.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

i never questioned his honesty. I am implying that after suffering such a horrific loss, many people would struggle to recall every detail of the preceeding few days.

He doesn't need to recall every detail, he knows what happened to his wife. He was there.

suicide_circus

Flying Fox wrote: »

He doesn't need to recall every detail, he knows what happened to his wife. He was there.

Okey Dokey, no need for any inquest so. Case closed.

positron

suicide_circus wrote: »

At the same time, i think it is worth noting, despite the self deprecating post colonial irishness going on, our maternity hospitals are far safe than those in lets say London and if a woman goes through pregnancy in India, she is some 80 times more likely to die than in Ireland.

Absolutely pointless and NOTHING noteworthy there. You are taking the stats form India and Ireland and comparing them like for like. If you consider the size of India, and various levels of care and facilities available in various parts and to people at various levels of education / resources, you would be surprised to see the type of care someone like Savitha would receive in India would be vastly superior to the care you get here. Trust me on this, I am from India and I live here, and I have seen both sides of the picture.

positron

clappyhappy wrote: »

That was very difficult to watch, the poor man, my heart goes out to him. Well done to him on going public, as he said two weeks and nothing, he deserves answers. RIP Savita.

+1. Much respect to Praveen, he did well to stay in control and get his concerns across - if it was me, I would be cursing, crying and pleading at the same measure.

My name is URL

clappyhappy wrote: »

That was very difficult to watch, the poor man, my heart goes out to him. Well done to him on going public, as he said two weeks and nothing, he deserves answers. RIP Savita.

Of course he deserves answers, but he should cooperate with the HSE so that they can attempt to identify any potential problems in a timely way. A truly public, external & independent inquiry could take a year just to get going due to the formalities and technicalities of it.

This internal inquiry would not affect any future public inquiry. But it might go towards assuring that a public inquiry is conducted.

suicide_circus

positron wrote: »

Absolutely pointless and NOTHING noteworthy there. You are taking the stats form India and Ireland and comparing them like for like. If you consider the size of India, and various levels of care and facilities available in various parts and to people at various levels of education / resources, you would be surprised to see the type of care someone like Savitha would receive in India would be vastly superior to the care you get here. Trust me on this, I am from India and I live here, and I have seen both sides of the picture.

I dont trust you, i trust the stats. Someone like Savita? What does that mean? A rich person?

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Okey Dokey, no need for any inquest so. Case closed.

I'm making the point that he can clearly describe the events of that week without having to recall every single detail. It's silly to suggest that because he is grieving his version of events shouldn't be taken very seriously.

K-9

My name is URL wrote: »

Of course he deserves answers, but he should cooperate with the HSE so that they can attempt to identify any potential problems in a timely way. A truly public, external & independent inquiry could take a year just to get going due to the formalities and technicalities of it.

This internal inquiry would not affect any future public inquiry. But it might go towards assuring that a public inquiry is conducted.

He doesn't have to co-operate with the inquiry, its really just an exercise in bureaucracy anyway. The time has come for a public inquiry into this case and if it takes a year, well it will be worth it. Expediency isn't important now.

Have a full public debate over it. If the doctors thought her life wasn't in danger initially and I've no reason to think otherwise, we need to change our laws to allow abortions when a woman is going to miscarry, but her life isn't in danger.

MagicSean

K-9 wrote: »

He doesn't have to co-operate with the inquiry, its really just an exercise in bureaucracy anyway. The time has come for a public inquiry into this case and if it takes a year, well it will be worth it. Expediency isn't important now.

Have a full public debate over it. If the doctors thought her life wasn't in danger initially and I've no reason to think otherwise, we need to change our laws to allow abortions when a woman is going to miscarry, but her life isn't in danger.

The public certainly need their scapegoat.

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

He doesn't have to co-operate with the inquiry, its really just an exercise in bureaucracy anyway. The time has come for a public inquiry into this case and if it takes a year, well it will be worth it. Expediency isn't important now.

Have a full public debate over it. If the doctors thought her life wasn't in danger initially and I've no reason to think otherwise, we need to change our laws to allow abortions when a woman is going to miscarry, but her life isn't in danger.

It may be so. I was under the impression that the problems arose with termination in regard to viable pregnancies that could be brought to term. It never crossed my mind that there would be any hesitation where theres no hope of a successful outcome for the foetus/child/whathaveyou.

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

It may be so. I was under the impression that the problems arose with termination in regard to viable pregnancies that could be brought to term. It never crossed my mind that there would be any hesitation where theres no hope of a successful outcome for the foetus/child/whathaveyou.

That's where the debate over health/life comes in and why people saying just legislate for the X case and it''l be grand, don't get it.

As far as I can see and I haven't heard anything otherwise, they can't "abort" a baby that is going to do die if there is no threat to the life of the mother, even if forcing the miscarriage is an exercise in futility.