Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Berlin at night

Biggins wrote: »

Disgusting, vile comment.
Thats all I can say about the above.

That has to be the nastiest comment I have ever seen on this board. Husband in it for money!!!! No doubt the poster is another of these religious unempathetic pro-life, anti-abortion, pro-mouthpiece fanatics.

K-9

Biggins wrote: »

Disgusting, vile comment.
Thats all I can say about the above.

Post was red carded so everybody please stop replying, thanks.

Israel_Dagg

Berlin at night wrote: »

That has to be the nastiest comment I have ever seen on this board. Husband in it for money!!!! No doubt the poster is another of these religious unempathetic pro-life, anti-abortion, pro-mouthpiece fanatics.

Selective reading?

MagicSean

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Like we havn't seen what happened the last time we did that!

Irrelevent. Every election we have the opportunity to put someone new in the Dail to legislate what we want. If abortion had have been a major issue in the last two decades a government would have legislated it. It took the death of Savita to bring it to the top of the list.

Lingua Franca

Solair wrote: »

Australia, Belgium, The Netherlands and two US states in terms of voluntary euthanasia ?
Eh, I don't think they've been bumping off anyone for financial reasons, nor is there any issue with tiny populations. In fact, they're actually pretty decent places to live with very strong stances on human rights in most cases (some aspects of which are far more developed than ours).

As for abortion, that's most of the developed world and while there are certain countries with population growth in decline, that's not down to abortion it's down to people making choices not to have kids which has more to do with work/life balance, social policies, education costs etc etc etc..

People in Ireland already make choices about whether to have kids or not.

Are you seriously suggesting we move to a situation where we ban contraception again?!

Not very many people would use abortion as a form of contraception btw... it's usually an absolutely last resort scenario where there's a really serious issue.

If you're worried about shrinking populations - maybe take a look at issues like hugely inflated costs of living, access to child care, maternity/paternity leave, work/life balance issues, many employers are totally inflexible about giving parent's the kind of arrangements they might need to cope with having kids. So, all those kinds of things would probably be some of the deciding factors as to why someone might / might not have kids, not access to abortion!

Anyway, we're MASSIVELY off topic here, considering that the issue at hand in Ireland at the moment is why a woman who was miscarrying apparently could not be allowed to terminate her pregnancy.

I live in the Netherlands. As the following post suggested, my post was indeed heavily laced with sarcasm.

Berlin at night

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

Selective reading?

Not really, brah. That person said a very hurtful thing about Savina's husband - we cannot begin to imagine how that poor man is feeling - he has just lost his beloved wife - his world has fallen apart. And that idiot comes out with something so callous. I don't have selective reading, I assure you.

And I am anti PC-brigade, so I'm not coming from that point of view either - as they are the death to free speech. That poster has the right to free speech and say how he feels, but with free speech comes responsibility. How does he know if a member of Savita's husband is not reading this thread, or a close family friend.

Israel_Dagg

Berlin at night wrote: »

Not really, brah. That person said a very hurtful thing about Savina's husband - we cannot begin to imagine how that poor man is feeling - he has just lost his beloved wife - his world has fallen apart. And that idiot comes out with something so callous. I don't have selective reading, I assure you.

And I am anti PC-brigade, so I'm not coming from that point of view either - as they are the death to free speech. That poster has the right to free speech and say how he feels, but with free speech comes responsibility. How does he know a member of Savita's husband is not reading this thread, or a close family friend.

I am that person.

Read my posts in this thread so far and get back to me.

old hippy

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

I am that person.

Read my posts in this thread so far and get back to me.

Are they as good as the ones you've been posting elsewhere?

Israel_Dagg

old hippy wrote: »

Are they as good as the ones you've been posting elsewhere?

What have my posts elsewhere got to do with anyone? Please leave me alone.

Berlin at night

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

I am that person.

Read my posts in this thread so far and get back to me.

I know you're that person, I have read your posts; I've followed every post on this thread, and let me say again, bro, u said a terrible thing. Mean spirited, cold, callous, unempathetic, and without thought. I'm all for free speech, but really???? Don't abuse it.

hotmail.com

Berlin at night wrote: »

Anti-abortionists are living in the dark ages. If they don't like, then they don't have to have one, do they? They should just f**k off and mind their own business and let women who want an abortion to get on with it.


Abortion is the only way to go in all cases, whether it be endagering the life of the mother, rape, unwanted -- bottom line, if a chick doesn't want something growing in her woumb she should be able to pop into her local abortion clinic within the time period legislated in enlightened countries and get it over and done with. Why go through the horror of carrying something for nine months she doesn't flipping well want. Its a NO BRAINER.


Whether these poxy rights for life lunatics like it or not, abortion clinics are coming in the near future. The pressure is too great for this useless government to resist the will of the people for much longer.

All my friends are pro abortion, and the stats I read say over 80% of the population want abortion clinics brought in. Only a matter of time before we join the real world.

Brilliant post, but I don't think your friends are not pro abortion, I would say they are pro-choice.

Israel_Dagg

Berlin at night wrote: »

I know you're that person, I have read your posts; I've followed every post on this thread, and let me say again, bro, u said a terrible thing. Mean spirited, cold, callous, unempathetic, and without thought. I'm all for free speech, but really???? Don't abuse it.

Sorry if it sounded bad. I'm not saying a terrible thing hasn't happened to him, but he's on tv every day and they don't want her records looked at.

Biggins

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

Sorry if it sounded bad. I'm not saying a terrible thing hasn't happened to him, but he's on tv every day and they don't want her records looked at.

And with the greatest of respect, how you do make a link that he's just possibly out for money from the fact that he doesn't trust an org that he thinks might have caused or partly caused her death?

I genuinely fail to see the connections you might see.

I would be on TV (daily) too if I thought I would want to see justice for my dead wife!
(Hell, I was on TV, radio and has a six month newspaper campaign started just to get my daughter treated in hospital - and that didn't EVEN involved a death!)

I and many here would do doing the very same as him I suspect - and it would have NOTHING to do with any money for ones pocket.

...and by the way, its also the Irish media chasing him too - while he apparently is very busy chasing the government for an open investigation!

Israel_Dagg

Biggins wrote: »

And with the greatest of respect, how you do make a link that he's just possibly out for money from the fact that he doesn't trust an org that he thinks might have caused or partly caused her death?

I genuinely fail to see the connections you might see.

I would be on TV (daily) too if I thought I would want to see justice for my dead wife!
(Hell, I was on TV, radio and has a six month newspaper campaign started just to get my daughter treated in hospital - and that didn't EVEN involved a death!)

I and many here would do doing the very same as him I suspect - and it would have NOTHING to do with any money for ones pocket.

...and by the way, its also the Irish media chasing him too - while he apparently is very busy chasing the government for an open investigation!

Did you get a solicitor too?

Losing a wife and just trying to blame someone isn't something that would usually happen imo.

Why does he have a solicitor?

K-9

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

Did you get a solicitor too?

Losing a wife and just trying to blame someone isn't something that would usually happen imo.

Why does he have a solicitor?

Spit out what you are insinuating or don't bother posting again.

Solair

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I live in the Netherlands. As the following post suggested, my post was indeed heavily laced with sarcasm.

You'll have to use the [/sarcasm] tags in future:D

It's hard to distinguish between sarcasm and normal speech on this particular thread sometimes!

Israel_Dagg

K-9 wrote: »

Spit out what you are insinuating or don't bother posting again.

What? I was replying to a poster who responded to my earlier comment???????!!111

Biggins

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

What? I was replying to a poster who responded to my earlier comment???????!!111

It would genuinely add weight to your opinion if you would explain how you do make a link that he's just possibly out for money from a fact that he doesn't trust an org that he thinks might have caused or partly caused her death!

I again, genuinely fail to see the connections you might see. I'd appreciate if you would clarify the connection you seem to see - if only to show what I and others might be missing. Thanks.

Israel_Dagg

Biggins wrote: »

It would genuinely add weight to your opinion if you would explain how you do make a link that he's just possibly out for money from a fact that he doesn't trust an org that he thinks might have caused or partly caused her death!

I again, genuinely fail to see the connections you might see. I'd appreciate if you would clarify the connection you seem to see - if only to show what I and others might be missing. Thanks.

-Constantly on the news every day
-Has a solicitor
-Showing no emotion after losing a wife
-Not wanting to release her records (possibly to stop the HSE proving that an abortion wouldn't have saved her)

emo72

"Some people are just mad Ted!"

Berlin at night

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

Sorry if it sounded bad. I'm not saying a terrible thing hasn't happened to him, but he's on tv every day and they don't want her records looked at.

Hey, no worries, my man - its an emotive subject that has everybodies heads
in a mess. I was way OTT on you. Sorry, man.

Israel_Dagg

Berlin at night wrote: »

Hey, no worries, my man - its an emotive subject that has everybodies heads
in a mess. I was way OTT on you. Sorry, man.

No worries

K-9

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

What? I was replying to a poster who responded to my earlier comment???????!!111

Solicitor too?

Losing a wife and just trying to blame someone isn't something that would usually happen imo.

Why does he have a solicitor?[/quote]

Maybe start answering rhetorical questions you ask.

Why d o you think he has a solicitor?

mikom

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

-Constantly on the news every day
-Has a solicitor
-Showing no emotion after losing a wife
-Not wanting to release her records (possibly to stop the HSE proving that an abortion wouldn't have saved her)

Sharon ni bheolain.

-Constantly on the news every day
-Has a solicitor

Two out of four.

Hang 'er high Tex.

Israel_Dagg

K-9 wrote: »

Solicitor too?

Losing a wife and just trying to blame someone isn't something that would usually happen imo.

Why does he have a solicitor?

Maybe start answering rhetorical questions you ask.

Why d o you think he has a solicitor?[/QUOTE]
Solicitor so he doesn't have to say anything, ensuring he doesn't say something wrong that would jeaoperdize his case. A solicitor so the solicitor knows the law inside out (i.e solicitor said he would take proceedings against the HSE if they looked at her records.)

Biggins

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

-Constantly on the news every day
-Has a solicitor
-Showing no emotion after losing a wife
-Not wanting to release her records (possibly to stop the HSE proving that an abortion wouldn't have saved her)

-Constantly on the news every day

...Because its an important point in the history of the state and might lead to aiding a major turning point in our laws?
...Because the press see this and are following his associated story?
...Because the press wish to sell ink and are chasing him - while he is actually clearly more busy chasing those that might bring a more open investigation?

-Has a solicitor

Everyone has a solicitor when these sad events happen.
They are hired if only to deal properly and legally with any authorities which might be involved.
Its better to do these things correct than not having a solicitor and bulling in like being in a china shop!

-Showing no emotion after losing a wife

We all with death in various ways.
Some people go through various stages of grief.
Who is to say he isn't and who is to say he don't cry at home when the cameras are off and not chasing him?

-Not wanting to release her records (possibly to stop the HSE proving that an abortion wouldn't have saved her)

...And all that I see/suspect is down to a lack of trust in an org he has stated he has no faith in.

I see NOTHING to espouse that he's just out for the money!
He's now saying he is going to take his case to the European court to get a better investigation going if possible - that alone is going to cost him personally a fortune to do.
So far I see nothing to poorly make out that he's in it for a profit.

I see an grieving, angry man that lost the love of his life seeking justice as best as possible.

Israel_Dagg

Biggins wrote: »

...Because its an important point in the history of the state and might lead to aiding a major turning point in our laws?
...Because the press see this and are following his associated story?
...Because the press wish to sell ink and are chasing him - while he is actually clearly more busy chasing those that might bring a more open investigation?


Everyone has a solicitor when these sad events happen.
They are hired if only to deal properly and legally with any authorities which might be involved.
Its better to do these things correct than not having a solicitor and bulling in like being in a china shop!


We all with death in various ways.
Some people go through various stages of grief.
Who is to say he isn't and who is to say he don't cry at home when the cameras are off and not chasing him?


...And all that I see/suspect is down to a lack of trust in an org he has stated he has no fear in.

I see NOTHING to espouse that he's just out for the money!
He's now saying he is going to take his case to the European court to get a better investigation going if possible - that alone is going to cost him personally a fortune to do.
So far I see nothing to poorly make out that he's in it for a profit.

I see an grieving, angry man that lost the love of his life seeking justice as best as possible.

Everyone sees things differently. I'm not asking anyone to change their opinion and agree with me. I'm willing to leave it at that as it's clear my opinion isn't liked, as long as people don't accuse me of bailing.

Berlin at night

I'm cool.

Biggins

Israel_Dagg wrote: »

Everyone sees things differently. I'm not asking anyone to change their opinion and agree with me. I'm willing to leave it at that as it's clear my opinion isn't liked, as long as people don't accuse me of bailing.

Fair enough.
We can agree to disagree.

K-9

[QUOTE=Israel_Dagg;81899604Also the husband, only a few weeks ago his wife died. No tears to be seen. Seeking money I'd say.
][/QUOTE]


It's shocking stuff isn't it?

dr.bollocko

The lancet has waded in.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2812%2962009-1/fulltext

When Savita Halappanavar died in Galway University Hospital, Ireland, last month from sepsis after having been denied a termination of pregnancy during a threatened miscarriage, an outcry went through the developed world. Ireland's restrictive abortion laws have caused public anger before, for example in 1992, when a 14-year-old rape victim was prevented from travelling to England for an abortion but was eventually given the right to abortion on the grounds of suicide risk. Maternal deaths are thankfully now rare in developed countries. But any such death is avoidable and makes it all the more important to critically examine laws and guidelines. The Irish Government should thoroughly review and reassess its ambiguous abortion law.

So the lancet. As opposed to, say, the irish independent or daily mail rag opinion piece.

mikom

dr.bollocko wrote: »

The lancet has waded in.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2812%2962009-1/fulltext


So the lancet. As opposed to, say, the irish independent or daily mail rag opinion piece.

In before some creeping Jesus brings up the fact that the Lancet is produced in Abortionville UK.

opinion guy

Irish Times have publised a timeline of events complete with who said what and when.

Blink and you miss this:

At this point Savita makes her first request for a termination, he says. She has accepted the pregnancy is lost and wants the ordeal to end. He says the consultant responds that it is not possible but when pressed says she will “go and check and come back”.

....and then.....

The consultant comes to Savita’s room at about 10am. “Savita told the doctor she was anxious to know what the response was ,” says Praveen.“The doctor said ‘unfortunately the foetus is still alive. It is law that we cannot terminate.”

So my next question, assuming this account is accurate, is who did this consultant check with ?

MagicSean

opinion guy wrote: »

Irish Times have publised a timeline of events complete with who said what and when.

Blink and you miss this:



....and then.....


So my next question, assuming this account is accurate, is who did this consultant check with ?

Could have been anyone. Could have been checking any aspect of the situation as opposed to getting permission as such. Unfortunately we only get one side of the story because the other side can't legally give out information so these little bits of info we get are pretty useless.

HeyThereDeliah

opinion guy wrote: »

So my next question, assuming this account is accurate, is who did this consultant check with ?

From what I have read there were two consultants looking after her, one for her and one for the baby. She probably consulted with the other doctor regarding the patients health.

Noreen1

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

From what I have read there were two consultants looking after her, one for her and one for the baby. She probably consulted with the other doctor regarding the patients health.

Do you have a source for this, please?

opinion guy

MagicSean wrote: »

Could have been anyone. Could have been checking any aspect of the situation as opposed to getting permission as such. Unfortunately we only get one side of the story because the other side can't legally give out information so these little bits of info we get are pretty useless.

You must have missed the part where I said "assuming this account is accurate".....:rolleyes:

HeyThereDeliah

Noreen1 wrote: »

Do you have a source for this, please?

A source for what exactly? She had two consultants?

Flier

From my memory of the prime time interview the husband did, I got the impression that the checking refered to checking the foetal heartbeat again. No conspiracy there!

frfintanstack

opinion guy wrote: »

Irish Times have publised a timeline of events complete with who said what and when.

Blink and you miss this:



....and then.....


So my next question, assuming this account is accurate, is who did this consultant check with ?

Every hospital would have an ethics committee, not saying that thats who the consultant was checking with here....but he/she should have done.

opinion guy

larry_duff wrote: »

am i the only one who thinks praveen is being given too much respect , people die in hospital due to human error on a regular basis , i find it absurd that this thing has turned into an international scandal , kevin myers wrote a good article the other day in which he sighed at the cringewothy level of grovelling which the irish goverment has been doing beit with india or praveeen himself , you would think a head of state had been assasinated on irish soil the way the debate is being carried out

Yes you are the only one.

Just because people die due to human error does't mean we should all just grumble and go about our business. That way nothing ever gets better. Frankly more people should be doing what Praveen does.

And by the way - why should we be more upset about a head of state than a normal person ? I don't think thats valid. Every life is equal.

gozunda

larry_duff wrote: »

am i the only one who thinks praveen is being given too much respect , people die in hospital due to human error on a regular basis , i find it absurd that this thing has turned into an international scandal , kevin myers wrote a good article the other day in which he sighed at the cringewothy level of grovelling which the irish goverment has been doing beit with india or praveeen himself , you would think a head of state had been assasinated on irish soil the way the debate is being carried out

????? Are you serious. Are you saying that Savita's husband should not be accorded respect? Do you have a problem with a family member attempting to the find the truth of what happened? I have respect for him because he is standing up for his wifes rights as a person. I do not see that as "too much respect"

A woman died. A woman died who was refused treatment which would have offered her the best chance of recovery. A woman died because it was stated that she could not be offered what is considered best practice all because "this is a catholic country" A woman died, leaving a bereaved husband and family who wish to seek out why she died, why she was refused treatment that would have offered her the best chances for recovery. A woman died and her family wish to know why she was not treated with regard to her health and well being but with regard only to the "life" of a non viable fetus. A woman died following treatment by medical specialists that have in their hands the lives and health of many more women. That is why there is debate - a debate that will hopefully lead to such barbaric treatment finally becoming a thing of the past.

MagicSean

opinion guy wrote: »

You must have missed the part where I said "assuming this account is accurate".....:rolleyes:

I did assume your account was accurate. It still doesn't show anything at all. Unfortunately we are being kept in the dark by the decision of Savitas husband to keep the medical records as confidential. While it is his right to do so, I do not believe it is right to release little snippets of the records here and there. A few sentances out of context can be very misleading.

Chain_reaction

larry_duff wrote: »

a close relative of mine die due to hospital neglect , we didnt get an hour long special on prime time , not did the minister for health meet us

I'm sorry for your loss.

But you can't say that "someone is being given too much respect" because they went down different channels. There is also a feeling that if x-case legislation or even if clear guidelines had of been in place for terminations where a mothers life is at risk Savita might still be here. Given the media circus due to ABC case its going to get more media attention. The european court of human rights has also called out the Irish government on their lack of action.

Both of ye have lost someone you've loved, there's no need to make a grieving husband suffer anymore because he's getting what you view as preferential treatment from the state, media.

Death and Taxes

MagicSean wrote: »

I did assume your account was accurate. It still doesn't show anything at all. Unfortunately we are being kept in the dark by the decision of Savitas husband to keep the medical records as confidential. While it is his right to do so, I do not believe it is right to release little snippets of the records here and there. A few sentances out of context can be very misleading.

The HSE have already established that they own the medical records , so where you get the idea that it Savitas husbad who is keeping us in the dark by keeping the medical records confidential is beyond me.
Really dont get the mentality of those (not necessarily you sean) who keep having a pop ar Praveen when he is the victim here!

HeyThereDeliah

gozunda wrote: »

????? Are you serious. Are you saying that Savita's husband should not be accorded respect? Do you have a problem with a family member attempting to the find the truth of what happened? I have respect for him because he is standing up for his wifes rights as a person. I do not see that as "too much respect"

A woman died. A woman died who was refused treatment which would have offered her the best chance of recovery. A woman died because it was stated that she could not be offered what is considered best practice all because "this is a catholic country" A woman died, leaving a bereaved husband and family who wish to seek out why she died, why she was refused treatment that would have offered her the best chances for recovery. A woman died and her family wish to know why she was not treated with regard to her health and well being but with regard only to the "life" of a non viable fetus. A woman died following treatment by medical specialists that have in their hands the lives and health of many more women. That is why there is debate - a debate that will hopefully lead to such barbaric treatment finally becoming a thing of the past.

We still don't know if after an immediate termination she would have lived.
The catholic country bit is taken out of context and overplayed IMO.

I think the case is only getting this much attention because of the abortion issue, if she died during childbirth there would be no attention given to it.

opinion guy

larry_duff wrote: »

a close relative of mine died due to hospital neglect , we didnt get an hour long special on prime time , nor did the minister for health meet us

Whilst I'm sorry for your loss, given your comments, I'm forced to ask - what did you do about it ??? Praveen hasn't just sat around waiting for the media to come to him as you seem to be implying - its obvious he has been proactive from the start. Granted by the fact this case involves abortion and there is an international element, its going to be high profile, but at the heart of it all this man is fighting as hard as he can. Did you do the same ? Because if you didn't you can't be blaming Praveen for fighting can you ?

Sorry to be so blunt.

HeyThereDeliah

MagicSean wrote: »

I did assume your account was accurate. It still doesn't show anything at all. Unfortunately we are being kept in the dark by the decision of Savitas husband to keep the medical records as confidential. While it is his right to do so, I do not believe it is right to release little snippets of the records here and there. A few sentances out of context can be very misleading.

The HSE own the records, I think this solicitor Wants to keep this story in the news, you would think he would know the law.

http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1123/1224327010396.html&sa=U&ei=DeCwUL3oLdK4hAeo44CQBQ&ved=0CB4QFjAC&usg=AFQjCNHJaRejiLUR_s0gXKuTdfwVOq2d2w

MagicSean

gozunda wrote: »

A woman died who was refused treatment which would have offered her the best chance of recovery. A woman died because it was stated that she could not be offered what is considered best practice all because "this is a catholic country" A woman died, leaving a bereaved husband and family who wish to seek out why she died, why she was refused treatment that would have offered her the best chances for recovery. A woman died and her family wish to know why she was not treated with regard to her health and well being but with regard only to the "life" of a non viable fetus. A woman died following treatment by medical specialists that have in their hands the lives and health of many more women.

Sure why have a public enquiry? Can you not just tell them? You appear to have all the facts.

gozunda

larry_duff wrote: »

so a ( woman ) died because ireland is a catholic country , thats a pretty large assumption
their is showing someone resepect and treating them in a pretty unique and priveledged manner , i ask again , when was the last time a relative of someone who died in hospital , was given a one hour special on prime time

You do like misquoting for your own benefits dont you?

I said

it was stated that she could not be offered what is considered best practice all because "this is a catholic country"

She was denied treatment which would have given her the best chance of recovery because it was stated this was a "Catholic Countrty"

Which bit of this are you unable to understand?

treating them in a pretty unique and priveledged manner

Wow - you really are looking down the wrong end of the microscope! The mans wife died in barabric circumstances and you say he has been treated in a 'pretty unique and priveledged manner ' ???

Savitas husband rightly imo has started a campaign to seek the truth of his wifes death and I wish him success.

Access to prime time etc will not come about by sitting on ones ass - he has gone out and spoken about what has happened. Let others do the same so those that would hide behind authority or dogma or negligence be brought to justice for what they may have done wrong.

Or maybe you would prefer that all this is buired with his wife - that way at least we wont embarass ourselves perhaps