Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

drkpower

joydivision wrote: »

Now she should have just got one anyway because she wanted one ?

Not really a case of 'because she wanted one', is it?

Regardless of the infection (and whether that was caused/contributed by a lack of a termination, where the foetus was never going to survive, do you not think that she should have been entitled to a termination even just to save her from the pain/trauma/distress of having to slowly miscarry?

What possible 'right' of the unborn would be contravened by offering a termination in such circumstances?

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

Im finding this thread hard to follow .
We dont know an abortion would have saved her . Now she should have just got one anyway because she wanted one ?
Is this whats being discussed now ?
The whole north thing has confused me.

Because a termination in this case is considered International Best Practice
- To minimise the risk of infection and to give the best chance of recovery to the mother.
No there are no absolute guarantees in any medical treatment That said a termination in these circumstances would have been the best medical practice. She was denied this.

Show Time

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Why should they have to?

If they were not happy with the medical attention she was receiving they could have hopped across the boarder and this case might not even have made the news.

it's not like they were citizens of the Republic and they came over here from a land that would not rate health care as high as in Ireland.


At this point it seems the hubby and the grease ball lawyer are just looking to make as much coin out of this as they can.

drkpower

Show Time wrote: »

If they were not happy with the medical attention she was receiving they could have hopped across the boarder and this case might not even have made the news..

Do you honestly think that would have been a practical response where a woman is going through an inevitable miscarriage?

Show Time wrote: »

it's not like they were citizens of the Republic and they came over here from a land that would not rate health care as high as in Ireland..

what does their citizenry status have to do with their right to healthcare? Does the fact that they are taxpayers make a difference? Would them paying more taxes than you make a difference to their entitlemetnt to healthcare?

Show Time wrote: »

At this point it seems the hubby and the grease ball lawyer are just looking to make as much coin out of this as they can.

Where do you get this idea from?

Gyalist

Show Time wrote: »

If they were not happy with the medical attention she was receiving they could have hopped across the boarder and this case might not even have made the news.

it's not like they were citizens of the Republic and they came over here from a land that would not rate health care as high as in Ireland.


At this point it seems the hubby and the grease ball lawyer are just looking to make as much coin out of this as they can.

Right of residence in Ireland does not allow you to use services in the UK/NI. You may need a visa to travel there.

Show Time

drkpower wrote: »

Do you honestly think that would have been a practical response where a woman is going through an inevitable miscarriage?

what does their citizenry status have to do with their right to healthcare? Does the fact that they are taxpayers make a difference? Would them paying more taxes than you make a difference to their entitlemetnt to healthcare?


Where do you get this idea from?

If the hospital hands staff were tied and could do nothing more for the woman why was it not an option to move her. She could have been in Belfast in under four hours less with a garda escort.

If the same thing had happened in her home country it would not have been such a big deal so the hubby and lawyer are bound to be seeing euro signs.

joydivision

So all we have so far is a woman died having a miscarriage. She was in a bit of pain and thought an abortion may have helped her . Doctors thought different .

Hardly a matter for such outcry . Its more an excuse to push a pro abortion agenda is it not ?

Death and Taxes

Show Time wrote: »

If the hospital hands staff were tied and could do nothing more for the woman why was it not an option to move her. She could have been in Belfast in under four hours less with a garda escort.

If the same thing had happened in her home country it would not have been such a big deal so the hubby and lawyer are bound to be seeing euro signs.

Their hands were not tied in the least bearing in mind both the X Case and C case judgements (C case specifically dealt with compelling an ill woman to travel to another Juristiction to procure a termination).
Not sure how the UK authorities would feel about the Gardai escorting anyone to one of their cities!

drkpower

Show Time wrote: »

If the hospital hands staff were tied and could do nothing more for the woman why was it not an option to move her. She could have been in Belfast in under four hours less with a garda escort.

The question is:
a) were the hosptial staff's hands tied? and
b) should the hosptial staff's hands be so tied?

Show Time wrote: »

A: If the same thing had happened in her home country it would not have been such a big deal so B: the hubby and lawyer are bound to be seeing euro signs.

You have no evidence that either A or B are true; you feel its ok to just throw out allegations like that do you?

And are you running away from the 'right to healthcare' question i posed you? Ah yes, it looks like you are....

drkpower

joydivision wrote: »

So all we have so far is a woman died having a miscarriage. She was in a bit of pain and thought an abortion may have helped her . Doctors thought different .

and yet more baseless speculation.

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

So all we have so far is a woman died having a miscarriage. She was in a bit of pain and thought an abortion may have helped her . Doctors thought different .
"Hardly a matter for such outcry" . Its more an excuse to push a pro abortion agenda is it not ?

Joydivision - Are you for real??? Your apparent lack of empathy in relation to the death of Savita Halappanavar is quite outstanding...

Do you actually know anything about miscarriage - the physical, emotional and psychological effect that a miscarriage can involve? Quite obviously not

"A bit of pain"???? - she was 17 weeks pregnant - a miscarriage at that point involves quite a lot more than " a bit of pain"

"Doctors thought different"??? - Doctors apparently denied the woman that which is considered international best practice in the case of miscarriage - but not for reasons to do with the womans health or wellbeing. Best practice does not guarantee a specific outcome - but it helps to ensure the minimization of infection and gives the woman the best chance of recovery possible.

"hardly a matter for such outcry"???? A woman died in barbaric circumstances - and you do not believe that does not warrant an outcry??

Those that have raised their voice against what happened do so in support of her family and with a desire that a repeat of these circumstances are never visited on their wifes, daughters, partners etc

"Push a pro abortion agenda" Get real - what is needed here is the guarantee for the protection of womans reproductive health. You obviously are pushing your own bizarre agenda here - what is it and why?

I will take it from your extreme negative views in this matter your agenda is against woman having any rights in relation to their reproductive health

Your post is truely truely abhorent...

Show Time

drkpower wrote: »

The question is:
a) were the hosptial staff's hands tied? and
b) should the hosptial staff's hands be so tied?


You have no evidence that either A or B are true; you feel its ok to just throw out allegations like that do you?

And are you running away from the 'right to healthcare' question i posed you? Ah yes, it looks like you are....

Everyone has a right to health care and if they are not happy with the care they are receiving than the option to go should elsewhere should be there for that person.

joydivision

gozunda wrote: »

Joydivision - Are you for real??? Your apparent lack of empathy in relation to the death of Savita Halappanavar is quite outstanding...

Do you actually know anything about miscarriage - the physical, emotional and psychological effect that a miscarriage can involve? Quite obviously not

"A bit of pain"???? - she was 17 weeks pregnant - a miscarriage at that point involves quite a lot more than " a bit of pain"

"Doctors thought different"??? - Doctors apparently denied the woman that which is considered international best practice in the case of miscarriage - but not for reasons to do with the womans health or wellbeing. Best practice does not guarantee a specific outcome - but it helps to ensure the minimization of infection and gives the woman the best chance of recovery possible.

"hardly a matter for such outcry"???? A woman died in barbaric circumstances - and you do not believe that does not warrant an outcry??

Those that have raised their voice against what happened do so in support of her family and with a desire that a repeat of these circumstances are never visited on their wifes, daughters, partners etc

"Push a pro abortion agenda" Get real - what is needed here is the guarantee for the protection of womans reproductive health. You obviously are pushing your own bizarre agenda here - what is it and why?

I will take it from your extreme negative views in this matter your agenda is against woman having any rights in relation to their reproductive health

Your post is truely truely abhorent...

I think the kids call that strawman.
My agenda is people should wait for the report and stop using this as an agenda pusher.

mikom

joydivision wrote: »

So all we have so far is a woman died having a miscarriage. She was in a bit of pain and thought an abortion may have helped her . Doctors thought different .

Hardly a matter for such outcry . Its more an excuse to push a pro abortion agenda is it not ?

gozunda wrote: »

Joydivision - Are you for real??? Your apparent lack of empathy in relation to the death of Savita Halappanavar is quite outstanding...
Your post is truely truely abhorent...

To be expected from the poster that said the following in regard to the cut in carers respite allowance.....

joydivision wrote: »

She could if I showed her how it wirked . Surely a family or friend could help out regurlarly . If not you only have to train a babysitter on hoist operation once .
Who is operating the hoists when your all outside leinster house ¿

joydivision wrote: »

Come on lets be honest . The country was booming . You were getting free holidays to look after your own parents . The land of milk and honey .
Now the money is not there . Id be glad it lasted as long as it did .
To say you cant leave the house or have a rest because nobody else can operate the hoist except you is desperate .
Its a free holiday like . Who looks after the parents then . Or when you go shop ?

Lack of empathy is an understatement.

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

I think the kids call that strawman.
My agenda is people should wait for the report and stop using this as an agenda pusher.

Tbh The only agendas I see are those like YD and ilk that are crying rivers over the possibility that what happened might be the final catalyst for change with regard to a woman actually having control of her reproductive health. Change so that this does not happen again.

It is indeed unfortunate if this does not suit some 'agendas'

joydivision

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh The only agendas I see are those like YD and ilk that are crying rivers over the possibility that what happened might be the final catalyst for change with regard to a woman actually having control of her reproductive health. Change so that this does not happen again.

It is indeed unfortunate if this does not suit some 'agendas'

Ye see there you go again . You dont have empathy for the woman you just want to talk about the joys of abortion being legal.

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

Ye see there you go again . You dont have empathy for the woman you just want to talk about the joys of abortion being legal.

'Want to talk sbout the joys of abortion being legal'

You truely have a gift of pure idiotic repetition

No that woeful attempt to further your twisted agenda won't work I'm afraid.

" hardly a matter for such outcry"

Unlike your declared disinterest in your post above in the suffering of Savita Halappananaver - I care what happened to her and also that it should not happen again.

You appear to have a one track tape recorder on this - it is really is as sad as it is pathetic tbh.

joydivision

Yep abuse anyone whos not shouting right on sister . To be honest with you I have no abortion agenda for or against . What we have is the accusations from a bereaved man and the media . Lets wait until the enquiry is over .
Whats your rush to judge ? Why are you posting in bold print ?
Are you worried the report will find an abortion wouldnt have helped her? How would this revelation make you feel?
Would it make your agenda suffer ?

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

Yep abuse anyone whos not shouting right on sister . To be honest with you I have no abortion agenda for or against . What we have is the accusations from a bereaved man and the media . Lets wait until the enquiry is over .
Whats your rush to judge ? Why are you posting in bold print ?
Are you worried the report will find an abortion wouldnt have helped her? How would this revelation make you feel?
Would it make your agenda suffer ?

Oh Dear - I was commenting on your apathetic posts with regard to Savita Halappananaver and you somehow think you are being abused?

For the second point - I am not a 'sister' - are you saying that I should be a woman to believe that this woman's rights should not be respected?

Sorry I don't believe your declaration - you have made clear that this is all about one big pro abortion conspiracy.

The bold is to highlight your direct quotes - is that ok with you? But There you are off on your pointing out agendas mission again when your absolute bias in this matter is clear to see.

Btw What branch do you actually belong to?

joydivision

gozunda wrote: »

Oh Dear - I was commenting on your apathetic posts with regard to Savita Halappananaver and you somehow think you are being abused?

For the second point - I am not a 'sister' - are you saying that I should be a woman to believe that this woman's rights should not be respected?

Sorry I don't believe your declaration - you have made clear that this is all about one big pro abortion conspiracy.

The bold is to highlight your direct quotes - is that ok with you? But There you are off on your pointing out agendas mission again when your absolute bias in this matter is clear to see.

Btw What branch do you actually belong to?

Branch of what ?
Tell me if they find out that an abortion would not have helped in anyway or that performing one was impossible , how will you feel ?
I have alot of sympathy for the girl but Im not running around blaming anyone I think caused it .
Again I have no abortion for or against feelings atall . I think the couple in question should sit down and decide if they want a baby or an abortion .
What I dont want is people using this case as a chance to get one over on the other side of the abortion fence .
Well not until the facts are out anyway .

OldNotWIse

How is this thread still going?? Either more women have died or people are repeating themselves.

Friends over last night and my best friend told me about a friend of hers (I know of her) who was told at 24 weeks her baby had no lungs, no kidneys and spina bifida and would clearly not survive the birth process or much beyond it. She had to travel for an abortion (all of which I knew) but...just found out last night she had to bring her dead child home in the boot of her car because of our laws. So tragic. A grieving couple want to mourn their child and this is what they have to go through. It's definitely time for a change. I dont and will never agree with socio economic abortions, and would hate to see abortion "on demand" and would never vote for such changes, but really when you hear about this poor girl you have to think, there's something wrong that a grieving mum and dad must travel abroad for a termination, with no family around to support them and then have to bring their dead child home in secret.

old hippy

Show Time wrote: »

If the same thing had happened in her home country it would not have been such a big deal so the hubby and lawyer are bound to be seeing euro signs.

Shades of the "money grabbing foreigners" to that post. Ugly.

OldNotWIse

old hippy wrote: »

Shades of the "money grabbing foreigners" to that post. Ugly.

Possibly. Though I agree with the first half of the statement ie;

"If the same thing had happened in her home country it would not have been such a big deal..." (sadly)

Morag

Show Time wrote: »

Why did they not simply hop over the boarder to Northern Ireland for the operation??

Cos the law on abortion in the north is different from the rest of the UK

Min

MadYaker wrote: »

Is it certain that she was infected with this strain of E. coli? Because if not then you are also jumping to conclusions without all the facts.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No, for you see Min would know more about this than her husband because...

An autopsy carried out two days later found she died of septicaemia "documented ante-mortem" and E coli ESBL.

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/current-affairs/savitas-family-to-approach-european-courthuman-rights_788876.html

The findings were reported last week in the Irish Times. She died of septicaemia "documented ante mortem", which means before death, and E Coli ESBL – which is an antibiotic-resistant strain of the often naturally occurring bacterium

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/maeve-sheehan-from-pure-joy-to-absolute-tragedy-in-just-seven-days-3296737.html

5. Management
With regards to the antimicrobial treatment of the septic patient, there is a lack of options against ESBL-producing organisms. As well as hydrolysing the β-lactam ring found in penicillin, cephalosporins (except cephamycins), and aztreonam, ESBL producers often have other mechanisms that confer resistance to other classes of antimicrobials, as described earlier.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ccrp/2012/625170/
It shows how this form of E Coli reacts with normal antibiotics - negatively.

A nasty bug that appears to be disarming the top drugs used to treat bladder infections is raising concerns for the 6 million to 8 million sufferers, mostly women, who develop the painful, annoying conditions each year.
A rare but aggressive strain of multi-drug-resistant E. coli bacteria, dubbed E. coli ST131, could be responsible for up to 1 million bladder infections and for more than 3,000 deaths a year from infections that started out in the urinary tract, estimated Dr. James R. Johnson, an infectious disease expert at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Minneapolis.
“I think it’s high time to worry,” said Johnson, who adds that the new strain is one resistance gene away from being untreatable. “Before, resistant strains were wimpy. Now, we have a winner.”




E. coli ST131 is included in a category of E. coli bacteria that produces enzymes that disable antibiotics, known as extended-spectrum beta-lactamase, or ESBL, bugs thought to cause the hardest-to-treat infections. A few years ago, ESBLs were rare, noted Dr. Thomas “Mac” Hooton, a professor of medicine and infectious disease expert at the University of Miami.
“Now, ESBL is like a second-language,” Hooton said. “I guarantee you that this will be something we’re seeing in five or 10 years and it will be all over the place.”




But more young women — perhaps 1 in 10, Owens estimated — might find that the first drug they take doesn’t work. And maybe the second drug won’t work, either.
In some of those cases, or for patients who’ve taken antibiotics previously, or those who have other health problems, the situation could get serious. Their infections may become chronic, or they may worsen markedly, requiring hospitalization and aggressive treatment. In very rare cases, the infections could become life-threatening or even deadly.
“Overall, I think these bad resistant bugs are uncommon,” Hooton said. “But it's the canary in the coal mine type of thing."
The rising levels of resistance overall and the appearance of new highly resistant bugs should prompt more attention — and more action, said Johnson, who has has received grants or served as a consultant for several top drug companies and has had contracts with many others.
“Part of the reason that now is the time to worry is that you need to worry in advance to do something about it,” he said. “The lead time to coming up with any fixes is pretty long.”
Most people think of E. coli as a diarrhea-causing gut bug that harms people who eat tainted hamburger or spinach. But E. coli that occurs outside the intestine is far more common — and causes far more infection and death, Johnson said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39504585/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/drug-resistant-bladder-bug-raises-growing-concerns/

This E Coli ESBL can be a killer:

Finally, 5 case patients (15.2%) had mortality attributable to infection, compared with 6 control patients (9.1%; OR, 1.91; 95% CI, 0.49–7.42; P = .35). Of the 5 case patients whose mortality was attributable to ESBL-producing E. coli or K. pneumoniae infection, 1 (20%) received appropriate therapy within 72 h of admission to the hospital. In comparison, 15 (53.6%) of 28 case patients who survived received appropriate therapy within 72 h of the time that the specimen was sent for culture. Of 8 case patients whose infections involved the bloodstream, 3 died. Only 1 (33.3%) of these 3 patients received appropriate therapy within 72 h of admission to the hospital, while 4 (80%) of 5 patients who survived received appropriate therapy during this period.

http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/8/1162.full

opinion guy

old hippy wrote: »

Shades of the "money grabbing foreigners" to that post. Ugly.

More than a shade. Sickening how Irish people are trying to tear down a guy who is actually trying to achieve change in our country. We don't see that very often. Now I see why.:(

ballygowan1

So what we know here is the Husband is saying not having the abortion killed her?

When in fact this is untrue?

The abortion had nothing to go with her death?

Is this correct?

Noreen1

ballygowan1 wrote: »

So what we know here is the Husband is saying not having the abortion killed her?

When in fact this is untrue?

The abortion had nothing to go with her death?

Is this correct?

The plain, unvarnished, truth is - We don't know.
That is why there is an investigation.

Her husband has called, repeatedly, for an open investigation.
He certainly seems to believe that an abortion would have saved her.
I've no idea what he is basing that on. It may be that someone suggested it to him. It may be a grieving husband needing something to blame.

Personally, I fully support an open investigation.
Apart from that, I will wait for more facts to emerge from the investigation, before reaching any conclusions.

Death and Taxes

ballygowan1 wrote: »

So what we know here is the Husband is saying not having the abortion killed her?

When in fact this is untrue?

The abortion had nothing to go with her death?

Is this correct?

Nothing in yourt post is correct as I understand it.

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Nothing in yourt post is correct as I understand it.

I think everything is correct .
Ehat he missed was he forgot to mention the husbands years of working as a doctor of oh no wait did he have a medical backround . This husband .

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

I think everything is correct .
Ehat he missed was he forgot to mention the husbands years of working as a doctor of oh no wait did he have a medical backround . This husband .

pathetic and snide post.

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

pathetic and snide post.

But a true one . This country was made look like a backwards shower of religeous fundamentalists on a global scale by this man. And no facts have come out yet . Just his claims which his representative has already said may differ from what actually happened .

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

But a true one . This country was made look like a backwards shower of religeous fundamentalists on a global scale by this man. And no facts have come out yet . Just his claims which his representative has already said may differ from what actually happened .

This countrys archaic anti-woman laws, enacted by relgious fundementalists were shown up for what they are, read the report of the UN issued yesterday.
Praveens representative has not withdrawn any claims that I am aware of, link to evidence that he has would be nice.

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

This countrys archaic anti-woman laws, enacted by relgious fundementalists were shown up for what they are, read the report of the UN issued yesterday.
Praveens representative has not withdrawn any claims that I am aware of, link to evidence that he has would be nice.

Oh right you have an agenda too .

Caliden

joydivision wrote: »

Oh right you have an agenda too .

So you agree the abortion laws are archaic?

Flier

joydivision wrote: »

But a true one . This country was made look like a backwards shower of religeous fundamentalists on a global scale by this man. And no facts have come out yet . Just his claims which his representative has already said may differ from what actually happened .

The fact remains that doctors in this country can not provide care that is considered the international best practice for women who are miscarrying (which many would consider backward) and the only reason for this imo is a shower of religious fundamentalists.

joydivision

Yes I agree abortion should be made legal 100 per cent .
I do not however like how everyone knows the facts of this case when there arnt any .

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

Oh right you have an agenda too .

Oh, indeed I have an agenda and I don't hide it, my agenda is equality, whats yours?

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Oh, indeed I have an agenda and I don't hide it, my agenda is equality, whats yours?

Equality ? You have a problem with men or the way the foreign girl was treated ?

Lingua Franca

joydivision wrote: »

Yes I agree abortion should be made legal 100 per cent .

joydivision wrote: »

Again I have no abortion for or against feelings atall .

Your inconsistency is bizarre.

Min wrote: »

links

I was mocking you for saying that Praveen didn't have all the facts that you do. Well done for repeating it!

joydivision

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Your inconsistency is bizarre.



I was mocking you for saying that Praveen didn't have all the facts that you do. Well done for repeating it!

This thread is not about my views on abortion . Read the title .
Maybe it should be changed its misleading .

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

Equality ? You have a problem with men or the way the foreign girl was treated ?

The lady's name was Savita. You could at least try showing her that much respect.
I have no problem with men per se, why would I?
You do understand the basic concepts of egalitarianism?

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

This thread is not about my views on abortion . Read the title .
Maybe it should be changed its misleading .

You seem to be the one making it about your views, ill informed though they appear to be.

Lingua Franca

joydivision wrote: »

This thread is not about my views on abortion .

No one said it was, I'm just pointing out that I find you lacking in credibility.

Read the title .
Maybe it should be changed its misleading .

How?

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The lady's name was Savita. You could at least try showing her that much respect.
I have no problem with men per se, why would I?
You do understand the basic concepts of egalitarianism?

Nope could you explain how a couple being allowed to keep or abort a baby is about equality ?
Are other couples here allowed abort ?

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

Nope could you explain how a couple being allowed to keep or abort a baby is about equality ?
Are other couples here allowed abort ?

The right of a waoman to regulate her reproductive system, the right of a woman, any woman, to choose whether to carry a pregnancy is about EQUALITY.

Morag

Finally
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/government-opts-for-abortion-legislation-and-regulations-3331201.html

It only took the EU,EU human right court,UN & international pressure for them to do what is needed after 21 years and the death of Savita.

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The right of a waoman to regulate her reproductive system, the right of a woman, any woman, to choose whether to carry a pregnancy is about EQUALITY.

She can regulate her reproducdive system with the pill . Coil . That little implant thing .
Does the partner get to have a say what happens its seed in your world of equality?

Morag

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The right of a waoman to regulate her reproductive system, the right of a woman, any woman, to choose whether to carry a pregnancy is about EQUALITY.

A man can have any life saving treatment needed on the spot, a woman who is pregnant can not due to the 8th amendment.

joydivision

Morag wrote: »

A man can have any life saving treatment needed on the spot, a woman who is pregnant can not due to the 8th amendment.

So the baby should have its right to live taken away so that men and women can be equal ?