Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Morag

joydivision wrote: »

So the baby should have its right to live taken away so that men and women can be equal ?

Where the pregnancy is non viable, the woman's life should be saved, it's that simple.

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

So the baby should have its right to live taken away so that men and women can be equal ?

It is not a baby, it is a jellified lump of cells.

joydivision

Morag wrote: »

Where the pregnancy is non viable, the woman's life should be saved, it's that simple.

Where do you make the judgement of non viable .
I dont agreethis is to do with equality . Men dont get pregnant women do . Its a fact of life but Ill move on.

Death and Taxes

Morag wrote: »

Finally
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/government-opts-for-abortion-legislation-and-regulations-3331201.html

It only took the EU,EU human right court,UN & international pressure for them to do what is needed after 21 years and the death of Savita.

Don't bet on it, the legislation will not meet the UN standard which is the proctection of the health of the woman, and they havn't outlined how they will deal with the threat of suicide.
I will believe it when I see it.

Morag

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Don't bet on it, the legislation will not meet the UN standard which is the proctection of the health of the woman, and they havn't outlined how they will deal with the threat of suicide.
I will believe it when I see it.

I agrees the legislation will only reflect the remit of the expert group which was the X Case ruling and the ABC rulings and will not cover protection of the health of women or rape/incest or fetal fatal abnormalities. There is only so much which can be done while the 8th Amendment is implace, it has to go.
We need a referendum to repeal the 8th.



http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/1/post/2012/12/joint-statement-pro-choice-groups-welcome-government-announcement-and-call-for-referendum.html

joydivision

Morag wrote: »

I agrees the legislation will only reflect the remit of the expert group which was the X Case ruling and the ABC rulings and will not cover protection of the health of women or rape/incest or fetal fatal abnormalities. There is only so much which can be done while the 8th Amendment is implace, it has to go.
We need a referendum to repeal the 8th.



http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/1/post/2012/12/joint-statement-pro-choice-groups-welcome-government-announcement-and-call-for-referendum.html

You want suicidal women to be allowed have an abortion ?
Have you ever been pregnant before ? Head all over the shop? I say women who threaten suicide for an abortion should be put in a padded room for 9 months .
This will definately open the door to abortions on a whim .
Surely you should want some sort of grounds . Some women feel suicidal after they have abortions . What then ?

Morag

joydivision wrote: »

You want suicidal women to be allowed have an abortion ?
Have you ever been pregnant before ? Head all over the shop? I say women who threaten suicide for an abortion should be put in a padded room for 9 months .
This will definately open the door to abortions on a whim .
Surely you should want some sort of grounds . Some women feel suicidal after they have abortions . What then ?

I have two kids and have had such acute pre and postnatal depression I have been advised for my mental health to not have any more.

So you are for torturing a woman with enforced pregnancy and take away all her rights for 9 months, good to know.

No one ever has an abortion on a whim.

joydivision

Morag wrote: »

I have two kids and have had such acute pre and postnatal depression I have been advised for my mental health to not have any more.

So you are for torturing a woman with enforced pregnancy and take away all her rights for 9 months, good to know.

No one ever has an abortion on a whim.

A suicidal woman might . Theyd kill themselves and their kids on a whim . A suicidal fella killed himself and a whole kindergarten on a whim the other day .

Morag

joydivision wrote: »

A suicidal woman might . Theyd kill themselves and their kids on a whim . A suicidal fella killed himself and a whole kindergarten on a whim the other day .

And some people kill themselves and other's in cars, so no one should ever drive.

joydivision

Morag wrote: »

And some people kill themselves and other's in cars, so no one should ever drive.

Woah unfollowing thread .

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

You want suicidal women to be allowed have an abortion ?
Have you ever been pregnant before ? Head all over the shop? I say women who threaten suicide for an abortion should be put in a padded room for 9 months .
This will definately open the door to abortions on a whim .
Surely you should want some sort of grounds . Some women feel suicidal after they have abortions . What then ?

Joy Division

Did you not state earlier you were 100% for abortion????

What are you up to exactly?

Either you are or your not.

Yeah here it is...

joydivision wrote: »

Yes I agree abortion should be made legal 100 per cent . ... .

Me smells myself a big stinky rat....

ballygowan1

Noreen1 wrote: »

The plain, unvarnished, truth is - We don't know.
That is why there is an investigation.

Her husband has called, repeatedly, for an open investigation.
He certainly seems to believe that an abortion would have saved her.
I've no idea what he is basing that on. It may be that someone suggested it to him. It may be a grieving husband needing something to blame.

Personally, I fully support an open investigation.
Apart from that, I will wait for more facts to emerge from the investigation, before reaching any conclusions.

Thanks for that. Thats what I thought. Yet everyone I talk to is saying if she had abortion she would have survived. This seems to be what most people think.

Seems lots may have been mis informed which is unfortunate.

We will just have to wait

MagicMarker

ballygowan1 wrote: »

Thanks for that. Thats what I thought. Yet everyone I talk to is saying if she had abortion she would have survived. This seems to be what most people think.

Seems lots may have been mis informed which is unfortunate.

We will just have to wait

It frankly doesn't matter whether or not an abortion would have saved her life, the mere fact that she had to spend days in agony simply because the doctors had to wait for the heartbeat to stop is barbaric enough.

joydivision

MagicMarker wrote: »

It frankly doesn't matter whether or not an abortion would have saved her life, the mere fact that she had to spend days in agony simply because the doctors had to wait for the heartbeat to stop is barbaric enough.

Again you dont know this either .

MagicMarker

joydivision wrote: »

Again you dont know this either .

Know what?

joydivision

MagicMarker wrote: »

Know what?

What was causing her pain . How long she was miscarrying for .

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

Again you dont know this either .

Actually it is one of the facts that is not in dispute.

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

What was causing her pain . How long she was miscarrying for .

Bearing in mind the number of insensitive posts you have made you would think that you might actually consider reading up on this case, as oppossed to just spouting off

Sarky

joydivision wrote: »

A suicidal woman might . Theyd kill themselves and their kids on a whim . A suicidal fella killed himself and a whole kindergarten on a whim the other day .

One does not commit suicide "on a whim". It takes a lot of thought and preparation. Please read up on mental health, you need to know more about it before making judgements like this.

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Bearing in mind the number of insensitive posts you have made you would think that you might actually consider reading up on this case, as oppossed to just spouting off

Link to official comments from hospital please ?

MagicMarker

joydivision wrote: »

What was causing her pain . How long she was miscarrying for .

Err, are you taking the piss? We know exactly what was causing her pain and how long she was miscarrying for.

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

You want suicidal women to be allowed have an abortion ?
Have you ever been pregnant before ? Head all over the shop? I say women who threaten suicide for an abortion should be put in a padded room for 9 months .
This will definately open the door to abortions on a whim .
Surely you should want some sort of grounds . Some women feel suicidal after they have abortions . What then ?

The Supreme court of this state has already stated that suicidal women are LEGALLY entitled to an abortion, you don't like that take it up with the Supreme Court!

joydivision

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The Supreme court of this state has already stated that suicidal women are LEGALLY entitled to an abortion, you don't like that take it up with the Supreme Court!

Ok i will.

Flier

joydivision wrote: »

Woah unfollowing thread .

Of 2911 posts, this is the one that makes you decide to unfollow the thread! There's a more way out stuff on here than that.

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

Ok i will.

JD

What about you supporting abortion 100% - ??

You didn't answer...

joydivision

gozunda wrote: »

JD

What about you supporting abortion 100% - ??

You didn't answer...

The pro abortion debaters are changing my mind a bit funnily enough .

Death and Taxes

joydivision wrote: »

The pro abortion debaters are changing my mind a bit funnily enough .

How are the Pro woman, Pro Choice debaters doing?

gozunda

joydivision wrote: »

The pro abortion debaters are changing my mind a bit funnily enough .

Your opinions appear to be as consistent as blancmange....


First anti abortion
Then pro abortion
Then quick change
Then back again
Then whatever comes next in sequence

How do you do that?

opinion guy

gozunda wrote: »

Your opinions appear to be as consistent as blancmange....


First anti abortion
Then pro abortion
Then quick change
Then back again
Then whatever comes next in sequence

How do you do that?

He must be a politician

old hippy

gozunda wrote: »

Your opinions appear to be as consistent as blancmange....


First anti abortion
Then pro abortion
Then quick change
Then back again
Then whatever comes next in sequence

How do you do that?

I bet he changes his name to new order, next

Death and Taxes

gozunda wrote: »

Your opinions appear to be as consistent as blancmange....


First anti abortion
Then pro abortion
Then quick change
Then back again
Then whatever comes next in sequence

How do you do that?

A good blancmange has a defined consistancy, .....a poor souffle on the other hand:D

Noreen1

MagicMarker wrote: »

It frankly doesn't matter whether or not an abortion would have saved her life, the mere fact that she had to spend days in agony simply because the doctors had to wait for the heartbeat to stop is barbaric enough.

I've a question for you.

Savita Hallapanavar presented with back pain.
Was this back pain related to contractions due to the miscarriage, or possibly due to infection?

Death and Taxes

Noreen1 wrote: »

I've a question for you.

Savita Hallapanavar presented with back pain.
Was this back pain related to contractions due to the miscarriage, or possibly due to infection?

Wow Youth Defence have stooped to an all time low, now she just had a back pain!
All women please be aware , back pain may be the sign that an inevitable miscarraige may be about to occur, but dont worry the Pope said women are only second class citizens and theybshould just grin and bear it, you know , just lie back and think of the vatican!:mad:

Magenta

joydivision wrote: »

She can regulate her reproducdive system with the pill . Coil . That little implant thing .
Does the partner get to have a say what happens its seed in your world of equality?

What about if the woman was raped? Should the rapist get a say? It is, after all, his seed.

Noreen1

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wow Youth Defence have stooped to an all time low, now she just had a back pain!
All women please be aware , back pain may be the sign that an inevitable miscarraige may be about to occur, but dont worry the Pope said women are only second class citizens and theybshould just grin and bear it, you know , just lie back and think of the vatican!:mad:

A back pain?
Show me where I posted that?

Savita presented at the hospital with back pain. Fact.

And less of the rubbish about youth defence, or the pope, thanks!

I asked Magicmarker a question. It is actually a medically valid question, since back pain can be a symptom of a number of things.
Do you want to answer it? Or just spout hysterical, unfounded accusations?

Magenta

joydivision wrote: »

I say women who threaten suicide for an abortion should be put in a padded room for 9 months .

What about other people who threaten suicide? Or should it only be pregnant women because they are clearly unstable and second class citizens.

jill_valentine

Don't feed the troll.

Flier

Noreen, I thought we were going to wait for the findings of the various inquiries before speculating anymore about the details of this case - and yet here you are wanting to know if the back pain was due to one thing or the other. Now you and I both know we can't say that for sure. Almost anything can be a symptom of almost anything else. That's why when you're answering the MCQ's, the options of 'always' or 'never' are usually not the right answer. But there's this little teaching aid that's been going about now for years. It goes something like this: " if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"

Noreen1

Flier wrote: »

Noreen, I thought we were going to wait for the findings of the various inquiries before speculating anymore about the details of this case - and yet here you are wanting to know if the back pain was due to one thing or the other. Now you and I both know we can't say that for sure. Almost anything can be a symptom of almost anything else. That's why when you're answering the MCQ's, the options of 'always' or 'never' are usually not the right answer. But there's this little teaching aid that's been going about now for years. It goes something like this: " if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"

I'm not the one doing the speculating!

I'm asking questions. Relevant ones, when people state definitively that the cause of Savitas pain was miscarriage.

As you said, if it walks like a duck...
There are a lot of breeds of duck, though!:p

Flier

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm not the one doing the speculating!

I'm asking questions. Relevant ones, when people state definitively that the cause of Savitas pain was miscarriage.

As you said, if it walks like a duck...
There are a lot of breeds of duck, though!:p

Yes, but you're asking people to speculate. Which is worse really. And there are lots of breeds of duck. But they all quack. And dogs bark. Are you getting this at all??

joydivision

Noreen I think your wasting your time I think any sane person left this thread long ago . Its full of conspiracy theorists thinking the youth defence are out to get them. Because their well known facts havnt been proved yet is irrelevant .
They are using this woman as a shining beacon of the terrors of the health service and constitution and yet they dont know the facts of the story . They have an account from a grieving husband who is apparantly unreliable according to his spokesperson .
Its terrible but I can picture them hearing how this woman suffered and jumping with glee that their agenda is now back in the public attention . Its horrible to think of it .
Again I say Ive always been pro abortion but I dont want any part of this.

joydivision

Sarky wrote: »

One does not commit suicide "on a whim". It takes a lot of thought and preparation. Please read up on mental health, you need to know more about it before making judgements like this.

So this girl that killed herself after the prank phonecall prepared for it?
It was a rash decision yesterday and the djs fault ?
Whats going on here.

El Weirdo

joydivision wrote: »

So this girl that killed herself after the prank phonecall prepared for it?
It was a rash decision yesterday and the djs fault ?
Whats going on here.

Re-reg troll banned.

Noreen1

MagicMarker wrote: »

It frankly doesn't matter whether or not an abortion would have saved her life, the mere fact that she had to spend days in agony simply because the doctors had to wait for the heartbeat to stop is barbaric enough.

Flier wrote: »

Yes, but you're asking people to speculate. Which is worse really. And there are lots of breeds of duck. But they all quack. And dogs bark. Are you getting this at all??

The bolded bit is the speculation.
It is an unproved assumption that the cause of Savitas pain was the miscarriage.

Flier, you know just as well as I do that that is not necessarily the case.
So, no, I'm not asking people to speculate. I'm pointing out that there are other possible sources for Savitas pain.
Or challenging speculation, if you prefer.

MagicMarker

Noreen1 wrote: »

The bolded bit is the speculation.
It is an unproved assumption that the cause of Savitas pain was the miscarriage.

Flier, you know just as well as I do that that is not necessarily the case.
So, no, I'm not asking people to speculate. I'm pointing out that there are other possible sources for Savitas pain.
Or challenging speculation, if you prefer.

A woman shows up at the hospital having a miscarriage, one symptom of which is severe back pain. And you're seriously going to post here arguing about how the miscarriage may not have been the cause of the back pain? Are you really so unbelievably petit?

Noreen1

MagicMarker wrote: »

A woman shows up at the hospital having a miscarriage, one symptom of which is severe back pain. And you're seriously going to post here arguing about how the miscarriage may not have been the cause of the back pain? Are you really so unbelievably petit?

Are you seriously suggesting that continuing to suffer back pain, when fully dilated, and suffering from infection, can without any doubt, be attributed solely to the miscarriage? You don't have enough information about the case to make such a definitive statement.
You have no idea how severe the pain was, which area of the back was painful, when, or if, the pain worsened at any stage, whether Savita continued to suffer contractions throughout her stay in hospital etc.

All of which would have a bearing on a clinical diagnosis.

Ergo, your comment was speculation.

MagicMarker

Noreen1 wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that continuing to suffer back pain, when fully dilated, and suffering from infection, can without any doubt, be attributed solely to the miscarriage? You don't have enough information about the case to make such a definitive statement.
You have no idea how severe the pain was, which area of the back was painful, when, or if, the pain worsened at any stage, whether Savita continued to suffer contractions throughout her stay in hospital etc.

All of which would have a bearing on a clinical diagnosis.

Ergo, your comment was speculation.

The pain was severe enough for Savita to have to ask for a termination on more more than occasion. She wanted to end the pregnancy, there was no reason not to as the fetus was not viable.

Noreen1

MagicMarker wrote: »

The pain was severe enough for Savita to have to ask for a termination on more more than occasion. She wanted to end the pregnancy, there was no reason not to as the fetus was not viable.

What has that to do with you inferring that miscarriage was the sole cause of her pain?

I haven't questioned whether Savita wanted to end the pregnancy, or whether her pain was severe. I've merely said, truthfully, that there are not enough facts available to assume that miscarriage was the sole cause of Savitas pain.
Ergo, there are not enough facts available to assume that a termination would have resolved her pain. It's that simple.

Death and Taxes

Noreen1 wrote: »

What has that to do with you inferring that miscarriage was the sole cause of her pain?

I haven't questioned whether Savita wanted to end the pregnancy, or whether her pain was severe. I've merely said, truthfully, that there are not enough facts available to assume that miscarriage was the sole cause of Savitas pain.
Ergo, there are not enough facts available to assume that a termination would have resolved her pain. It's that simple.

What is considered International best practise in a situation such as this where a woman is
A) Miscarrying an unviable foetus, and where
Said woman is also in severe pain?

opinion guy

Noreen1 wrote: »

What has that to do with you inferring that miscarriage was the sole cause of her pain?

I haven't questioned whether Savita wanted to end the pregnancy, or whether her pain was severe. I've merely said, truthfully, that there are not enough facts available to assume that miscarriage was the sole cause of Savitas pain.
Ergo, there are not enough facts available to assume that a termination would have resolved her pain. It's that simple.

Are you trying to say that miscarriages are not painful ?

Yeah go try that line in the ladies lounge and see how long you last :rolleyes: