Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

Seaneh

Seaneh wrote: »

You are talking through your hoop.

Seaneh wrote: »

Stay there while you're at it and don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

:rolleyes:

Seaneh wrote: »

Oh **** off and grow up.

Seaneh wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: x inifinty.

Banned

Cookie_Monster

danger mouse wrote: »

How can you say that. An unwanted pregnancy should not be a reason to abort a child. We need to fully protect the rights of the unborn child no matter what circumstances a women gets herself into, an abortion is not a life style choice. It is murder as far as I'm concerned. We fully need to protect the unborn as they have no voice and are the most vulnerable members of society.

and it is a lifestyle choice and not murder as far as I'm concerned

Sorcha16 wrote: »

I don't think that random clump of cells you refer to should be disposed of like yesterday's newspaper because the person growing them is too reckless to take other precautions.

As I've already said and will reiterate for you again, I think abortion should only be used in medical circumstances or as a last resort in unwanted pregnancy and absolutely not as a means of contraception.

other precautions can fail and I think its a perfectly valid final step as far as I'm concerned.

billybudd

positron wrote: »

As someone from India, my most sincere sympathies and condolences to Praveen and the extended family Savita has left behind.

Trust me when I say this - Indians would be shocked to the core to read this news in todays papers there because this sort of stuff is unheard of and unimaginable to the vast majority there. If you are going to say worse things happen in India, you are right, but it's rare, and it's less shocking as that type of stuff would be coming from the very poor, very remote and backward parts of India. If anyone with basic education, and enough means to feed and cloth themselves, failed by the system in the name of archaic religious doctrines is not only unimaginable today in India, in certain parts of the country, there would be such a strong backlash from the mourning relatives, the police would usually put the doctors involved behind the bars straight away for their own safety. A hospital or a group doctors failing a pregnant woman is absolute no-no in India, and any sign of negligence or lack of care is totally frowned up on and the law comes down heavily on them, eve if the public spares them for some unusual reason.

Again, what an unfortunate and tragic story, and how Ireland becomes a laughing stock yet again in the international stage!

Are you kidding? I could write 1000 pages of how India has failed its people and especially its children, ever been to new Delhi and seen the thousands of disfigured children? This is a tragic failure of the Irish government and indeed people, but a laughing stock in the eyes of the world? No, not at all and actually a fair percentage of the world would agree with it, sadly.

periodictable

It amazes me how these asshole politicians cannot legislate once and for all in line with the X case. Just do it and get it over with and it will be old news in a week.

Benny_Cake

billybudd wrote: »

The people of Ireland, yes.

The government, yes.

It has been 20 years since this should have been legislated and yet the cowardly government has refuded to act on it and people generally ignore it until something like this happens and then take great glee from blaming everyone but themselves.

The people of Ireland spoke, the government ignored this and as usual we just accepted it.

I will be asking questions of my local TD's this week, will you? or just another fake outpour of meek anger on the internet? we have a choice here, unlike that poor lady and family.

+1

Generally speaking, I'd be against abortion, but if it's a case of a woman's life being at risk, then sorry, but no contest. So tragic and unnecessary.

Cookie_Monster

Nodin wrote: »

No, its supposed to be a secular republic. And the sooner we make that a reality as oppossed to a phrase the better.

but its nowhere near that, sure God is referenced in the constitution FFS. until that's removed it'll never be secular.

start of constitutio wrote:

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

If that ain't hugely religious I dunno what is...

Nodin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but its nowhere near that, sure God is referenced in the constitution FFS. until that's removed it'll never be secular.



If that ain't hugely religious I dunno what is...

..slowly but surely. Too fucking slowly, obviously, but thats no reason to stop.

Death and Taxes

Youth defence and the restt of the anti woman/anti choice taliban must be really delighted with themselves over this.

poeticseraphim

muppetkiller wrote: »

Mmmm I think I'm going to go with whatever the Doctor at the time decided was best for the Patient and unborn child rather than reading the facts from the Media.

Impossible to get the full facts until a clear investigation is made.
Heart goes out to the Husband and family though. I think I actually worked with him a few years ago. Very nice man.

Edited :Sorry for spoiling Christmas for you Treha.

This happens to be a case where the fetus was never going to survive.

This is the problem....Doctors are allowing women to die ....

People have NO idea what the HSE is like.

Ashamed to be Irish.

poeticseraphim

The family should sue the state.

poeticseraphim

Gbear wrote: »

Basic human decency.

We should be talking about how a doctor defied a nonsensical legislative approach to abortion and is now the target of a completely unjust disciplinary process and/or prosecution.

It reflects appallingly on the individual that we aren't.

The Medical profession in this country is terrified of the consequences ...and some are pro-life.


Women daren't even tell their doctors that they have previously had an abortion.

xtinataguba

oh god, this is a very bad story. may she rest in peace. how many more women will be denied for their human rights?

HalloweenJack

Absolutely disgusting story, really horrible treatment of the woman involved. My heart out goes out to the husband, totally needless death of two, not just one, loved ones.

The sad fact is I highly doubt this will force any debate on the X case. FF are trying to woo the pro-life crowd so they're not going to bring it up, especially when Martin had four years to do something about it as Minister of Health. The Gov won't do anything to save their popularity. Outside of them, who do you have to push the agenda? I have never read anything to suggest that SF would back abortion so we're down to the likes of the technical group and the Independents. I can't see any of them making much difference on such a large issue.

Also, I find it absolutely disgraceful that non-Catholics are forced to endure Catholic laws, with the doctor being so blatant as to tell the poor woman so. to me, this is no different to the likes of the Taliban or Boko Haram who are intent on forcing all those in their areas to live by Sharia law.

This whole point makes me furious and glad that I live in Spain. There are still a lot of Catholics here but the Government have restricted their influence greatly in public matters. Ireland can follow their lead on that front.

poeticseraphim

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

we really have to work as hard as possible to dismantle the hold that the catholic cult of pure and utter evil has over this country

Here here.

HeyThereDeliah

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and it is a lifestyle choice and not murder as far as I'm concerned

I'm not sure lifestyle choice is the right way to put it, it's not like "I'm pregnant but it doesn't my lifestyle this year lets get rid of it and I will get another baby next year"

I'm not anti abortion but I don't like some people's attitude to getting rid of a baby either.

Fuinseog

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well done to the scum in Youth Defence, they have blood on their hands.

boo hoo.

Fuinseog

xtinataguba wrote: »

oh god, this is a very bad story. may she rest in peace. how many more women will be denied for their human rights?

hardly a human right to murder.

I see RTE is on the bandwaggon promoting the pro abortion side

Fuinseog

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The Medical profession in this country is terrified of the consequences ...and some are pro-life.


Women daren't even tell their doctors that they have previously had an abortion.

doctor wanting to save lives. thats terrible.

foetus had a hard beat ergo it was human life.

who the fug

For all ye people calling on the Government to do something, when is the last time ye bollicked a TD about this, as someone has pointed out on this thread earlier Baby X case was 20 years ago.

The Government will not do something untill they are backed into a corner , so start backing them into that corner.

jaykay74

Fuinseog wrote: »

doctor wanting to save lives. thats terrible.

foetus had a hard beat ergo it was human life.

Well now both baby and mother are dead so problem solved there I guess. Pro life work is done in this case.

poeticseraphim

tony81 wrote: »

Disgraceful attitude.
Perhaps she had pregnancy complications and septicemia, but do you know for certain that she was denied abortion and that's what caused her death?
In Ireland no pregnant woman is denied medical treatment, even treatment that will end he life of the baby if it will save the mother.
That's our law, and it's the reason Irish women have so few abortions yet one of the lowest mortality in child birth rates in the world.
Stick to the facts and stop dragging up tragedies to push your own agenda.

There are going to be to many pro-life evil idiots for me to respond to in this thread.

So let me just take this one and apply it to all of you liberally.

The only appropriate response to this story is utter disgust at the catholic church , the state and the HSE who have numerous times endangered women's health and only a fraction of these cases come to the public.

My problem with pro-lifers is that you are at best TOTAL IDIOTS and at worst PURE EVIL.

Pro-life is an oxymoron...you cannot be anti-abortion and pro-life ..you cannot be anti- abortion and pro health. There instances where a woman may not die but her health may be seriously and permanently compromised.

Abortion saves lives...FACT.

How can you say that. An unwanted pregnancy should not be a reason to abort a child. We need to fully protect the rights of the unborn child no matter what circumstances a women gets herself into, an abortion is not a life style choice. It is murder as far as I'm concerned. We fully need to protect the unborn as they have no voice and are the most vulnerable members of society.

This is the type of stuff we are dealing with here. Unjustified premises that are detached from any reality or logic.

Fuinseog

positron wrote: »

As someone from India, my most sincere sympathies and condolences to Praveen and the extended family Savita has left behind.

Trust me when I say this - Indians would be shocked to the core to read this news in todays papers there because this sort of stuff is unheard of and unimaginable to the vast majority there. If you are going to say worse things happen in India, you are right, but it's rare, and it's less shocking as that type of stuff would be coming from the very poor, very remote and backward parts of India. If anyone with basic education, and enough means to feed and cloth themselves, failed by the system in the name of archaic religious doctrines is not only unimaginable today in India, in certain parts of the country, there would be such a strong backlash from the mourning relatives, the police would usually put the doctors involved behind the bars straight away for their own safety. A hospital or a group doctors failing a pregnant woman is absolute no-no in India, and any sign of negligence or lack of care is totally frowned up on and the law comes down heavily on them, eve if the public spares them for some unusual reason.

Again, what an unfortunate and tragic story, and how Ireland becomes a laughing stock yet again in the international stage!

isn't India the place where baby girls are drowned at birth, still has a caste system and acid attacks on women are commonplace? all of which make India a tragic laughing stock

conorhal

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Youth defence and the restt of the anti woman/anti choice taliban must be really delighted with themselves over this.

You talk a lot of nonsense. The only delighted people I see on this thread are the are the agenda pushers, who couldn't be happier, or sorrier that they had to wait over 20 years for a hard case to appear so that they could finally publish some bad law.

Your venomous glee is showing, you should be embarrased for yourself.

Fuinseog

jaykay74 wrote: »

Well now both baby and mother are dead so problem solved there I guess. Pro life work is done in this case.

the unborn have a right to life. no clever term to disguise murder can be employed.

conorhal

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Youth defence and the restt of the anti woman/anti choice taliban must be really delighted with themselves over this.

You talk a lot of nonsense. The only delighted people I see on this thread are the are the agenda pushers, who couldn't be happier, or sorrier that they had to wait over 20 years for a single hard case to appear so that they could finally publish some bad law.

Your venomous glee is showing, you should be embarrased for yourself.

Madam_X

Fuinseog wrote: »

boo hoo.

Ah look, seriously no need to be that callous re this woman simply because you're pro life (well pro-life ish...)

Fuinseog

poeticseraphim wrote: »

This happens to be a case where the fetus was never going to survive.

This is the problem....Doctors are allowing women to die ....

People have NO idea what the HSE is like.

Ashamed to be Irish.

how do you know the foetus would not survive? the full facts have yet to emerge. at the moment its only anti papist bigotry and the pro abortion lobby that is clear.

jaykay74

Fuinseog wrote: »

the unborn have a right to life. no clever term to disguise murder can be employed.

This unborn had no life, neither now does the mother. The mother could have had a life. Understand ?

poeticseraphim

Not to mention our Dáil is only 15% made up of women.....so our legislative body is not even gender balanced to ensure women have a say on this and other issues.

So not only does the state say it holds dominion over individual women's bodies it also has only men making these decisions.


We don't even get a 50 /50 balance in the debate ..it is CRAZY.

Why should men ..(and pretty misogynistic dishonest and corrupt men at that) decide or legislate this without female balance???


It is a disgrace.

Biggins

"With modern technology and science, you can’t find one instance” in which abortion is necessary to save the life or health of the mother.

NOT my words but of American Tea Party Rep. Joe Walsh. (Another nut-job!) See HERE

There was a recent case also of a 16 year old leukemia patient who died from cancer because the Dominican government would not allow her an abortion or chemotherapy, which I reported on.

These cases simply should not have to be happening.
When cowardly politicians put religious crap or political cowardice over doing the right thing - they deserve to be sacked to say the least!
They continue to put lives at risk and as we have seen in the two cases above, its still happening the world over!

May the people involved who lost their lives, in both cases rest in peace.

poeticseraphim

irishfeen wrote: »

Surely if a termination had taken place it would have been a private matter between a doctor and the patient and would never have came to light.... I would be hoping anyway.

No quite the opposite..it is illegal.

rainbow kirby

Fuinseog wrote: »

how do you know the foetus would not survive? the full facts have yet to emerge. at the moment its only anti papist bigotry and the pro abortion lobby that is clear.

She was diagnosed as being in the process of having a miscarriage. That means the foetus is not viable and cannot survive outside the womb, therefore medical attention should focus entirely on the care of the woman. That didn't happen here.

Fuinseog

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Not to mention our Dáil is only 15% made up of women.....so our legislative body is not even gender balanced to ensure women have a say on this and other issues.

So not only does the state say it holds dominion over individual women's bodies it also has only men making these decisions.


We don't even get a 50 /50 balance in the debate ..it is CRAZY.

Why should men ..(and pretty misogynistic dishonest and corrupt men at that) decide or legislate this without female balance???


It is a disgrace.

plenty of corrupt female politicians out there. there are few female TDs because women choose not to go into politics. despite the common perception that politicians are a bunch of lazy wasters it is a job that demands huge commitment. some women prefer to have lives and raise a family.

Benny_Cake

Fuinseog wrote: »

the unborn have a right to life. no clever term to disguise murder can be employed.

This would not have been "murder", it would have been a medical intervention to save the life of the mother. I'm someone who would be opposed to abortion on demand but from what I've read the pro-life stance here would be to save the life of the mother.

Also, I'd read back over some of your posts here if I were you. From someone who professes you be pro-life, they are tasteless and callous.

Dodge

I can only imagine the outrage In Ireland if an Irish woman died in Saudi Arabie (eg) due to religious law

Fuinseog

rainbow kirby wrote: »

She was diagnosed as being in the process of having a miscarriage. That means the foetus is not viable and cannot survive outside the womb, therefore medical attention should focus entirely on the care of the woman. That didn't happen here.

the actual facts are still spartan.RTE is pushing an pro abortion agenda. I will wait for more unbiased reports.

FrogMarch

On one hand, I'm very much pro-choice. On the other, I can't help but feel the more militant amongst us are going to use this poor woman and her child to push their agenda and express their moral outrage without even waiting for the final results of the inquiries which are underway.

eviltwin

I think even the pro-choice lobby would have wanted the pregnancy to be terminated if this was their mother, sister or daughter.

That poor family, what a disgrace this has had to happen, I just have no words. I never thought we would come to this.

Fuinseog

lets burn down catholic churches and make the papists wear blue hats.


BTW the people of Ireland rejected abortion in the last referendum, not the catholic church.

Madam_X

Fuinseog wrote: »

the actual facts are still spartan.RTE is pushing an pro abortion agenda. I will wait for more unbiased reports.

No it's not.

average_runner

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Not to mention our Dáil is only 15% made up of women.....so our legislative body is not even gender balanced to ensure women have a say on this and other issues.

So not only does the state say it holds dominion over individual women's bodies it also has only men making these decisions.


We don't even get a 50 /50 balance in the debate ..it is CRAZY.

Why should men ..(and pretty misogynistic dishonest and corrupt men at that) decide or legislate this without female balance???


It is a disgrace.

Well get up off your own ass and run as independent in the next election, or are u just all talk talk talk talk

Ellis Dee

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well done to the scum in Youth Defence, they have blood on their hands.

I wish the system would let me give you a thousand "likes" for that. Except I wouldn't say "well done", even though I know you mean it sarcastically. I'd say "a pox on every single one of you evil cnuts!"

Nothing ever makes me declare I am ashamed to be Irish, because I am not responsible for what others do and the only ones guilty here are the religious fundamentalist bullies, but I came pretty close to it when I read this story.

And I think I'll puke if I read about some of those cnuts saying they'll pray for the deceased young women.

Just imagine the outrage we'd witness in the Irish media if an Irish visitor to India was refused appropriate medical treatment because of some or other local superstition or belief!:mad::mad::mad:

It will be interesting to see if the story makes its way into the local daily, the Deccan Herald:

http://www.deccanherald.com/

FrogMarch

eviltwin wrote: »

I think even the pro-choice lobby would have wanted the pregnancy to be terminated if this was their mother, sister or daughter.

Um, the pro-life lobby?

Cookie_Monster

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Why should men ..(and pretty misogynistic dishonest and corrupt men at that) decide or legislate this without female balance???


It is a disgrace.

because women don't vote for women nor do they run for election in general

kraggy

I'm confused. First I thought it hasn't been written into law but now I read that there is in fact provision for an abortion if there is a definite risk to the life of the mother.

According to the indo anyway, which quotes the constitution.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pregnant-woman-died-after-hospital-delayed-abortion-3293842.html

The article implies that the doctor did start a termination but that it was too late. Have I got that right?

Edit: I've since read on the guardian website that they removed the foetus after it died.

Stil confused about the constitution quote though.

Edit 2: it seems that they didn't terminate because the risk of life to the mother didn't exist until after the foetus had died.

poeticseraphim

tony81 wrote: »

Cookie monster, this hippocratic oath? (Much better than those catholic and religious nutjobs)

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:

Snip

I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

That is not the modern Hippocratic oath.....it is not the oath Doctors take...it is not even close.


And only 50% of students in the UK take it...not sure about Ireland ..there is no legal obligation to take it.

This is the modern Hippocratic oath

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

The idea that scientist would start swearing to Apollo somehow sums up the naivety and ignorance of the lay person in reference to medicene.

Some Irish Doctors take it ....many don't...there is no legal obligation to.

It as to be modified obviously every now and then to accommodate medical progress.

This current version was written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University.

matrim

The people to blame for this aren't necessairly the doctors, it's the current and all previous governments for the last 20 odd years.

If the doctor did say "because this is a catholic country", he's a bit of an idiot, but if he had carried out the termination he would have been knowingly breaking the law, if the case was then examined he would possibly have lost his license and maybe even sent to jail. So in some ways I don't blame him for not carrying out the termination, until the last possible moment.

Going by the small amount of facts in the story, if I had been in his position I'm not sure if I would have taken the risk to my career and the risk of jail time. I like to think I would have taken the risk and saved this woman's life, but I can't with 100% certainty say that I would have.

The people have voted to leglisate for this case but successive governments have refused to do so because they are spineless and afraid of the controversity and a very large porportion of this woman's blood is thier hands.

mal1

poeticseraphim wrote: »

This is the type of stuff we are dealing with here. Unjustified premises that are detached from any reality or logic.

I agree with all you said expect the last point. What is illogical with saying that an unwanted pregnancy is not justification for abortion? You may not agree but it's not illogical in any sense. Even Richard Dawkins would admit to that.

Hersheys

kraggy wrote: »

I'm confused. First I thought it hasn't been written into law but now I read that there is in fact provision for an abortion if there is a definite risk to the life of the mother.

According to the indo anyway, which quotes the constitution.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pregnant-woman-died-after-hospital-delayed-abortion-3293842.html

The article implies that the doctor did start a termination but that it was too late. Have I got that right?

From other sources (cant link am on phone) the baby died & they removed the dead foetus but it was too little, too late.

RIP

upstairs for coffee

@ Fuinseog

It is your beliefs that helped to kill this woman. Don't hide behind your 2000 old parchment that you need to tell right from wrong. Your beliefs did this and you have the audacity to get on a moral horse?

Appalling.